Saudi religious police have destroyed a clandestine makeshift Hindu temple in an old district of Riyadh and deported three worshippers found there, a newspaper reported on Saturday.
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A caretaker who was found in the worshipping area ignored the religious police orders to stop performing his religious rituals, the paper added. He was deported along with two other men who arrived on the scene to worship.
I thought Muslims are not supposed to destroy any religious shrines/temples of any kind? Doesn't that include Hindu's? Why not? Why not remembering the fact that the Hindu's populations in India only is half of the Muslims population around the world! Also remember that if you give yourself the right to destroy their temples, then they have the right to destroy all your mosques in India!
Why Saudi? Does Islam stop at Saudi borders? If that is Islam then why not destroy all religious temples, churches, etc... in all Muslim countries?
Doesn't that remind you of Taliban destroying the ancient Buddhist statutes exactly four years ago? What did Taliban and Islam gain from that except more hate to Islam?
Did Muslim's of early days destroy the statutes of Jesus and Mary in Nazareth? Or those of Pharos in Egypt? Or is it sick minded people dragging the Arabs in general and Muslims in particular to new dark-ages? I just can find any excuse for anybody to destroy any religious samples of any group, nor prevent anyone from practicing the freedom of worship. This is one of the granted principal of Islam; "Freedom of Worship".
Such ignorant hiding behind the cover of being religious should be fought with all means. And let's remember that Saudi Arabia is not Mecca; Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. And what applies to Mecca does not necessarily applies to the rest of the world, unless there is no borders for Mecca!
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sabbah, i take it either ure not muslim or ure questions are retorical. either way, suffice to say that Islamically it is forbidden to destroy any temples of worship for any religion. there is no compulsion in religion as the quran states and this is what happened when the muslims entered india, leaving them free to convert or to practice freely. the taj mahal is an example of a mosque in a hindu prominent area. another testiment is that pyramids are still standing. the ka3ba was a pagan home in a city of pagans, the stones in it were destroyed but it remained standing and none of its people were killed.
im suprised you did not seem to continue the article before coming to this conclusion. “stumbled across a room converted into a temple while raiding a number of flats suspected of being used to manufacture alcohol and distribute pornographic videos”, so it was built first and foremost without a lisence, hence it was against the law. also, the police were sent to raid flats that were also breaking the law and seem to discover this.
sabbah, i take it either ure not muslim or ure questions are retorical. either way, suffice to say that Islamically it is forbidden to destroy any temples of worship for any religion. there is no compulsion in religion as the quran states and this is what happened when the muslims entered india, leaving them free to convert or to practice freely. the taj mahal is an example of a mosque in a hindu prominent area. another testiment is that pyramids are still standing. the ka3ba was a pagan home in a city of pagans, the stones in it were destroyed but it remained standing and none of its people were killed.
im suprised you did not seem to continue the article before coming to this conclusion. “stumbled across a room converted into a temple while raiding a number of flats suspected of being used to manufacture alcohol and distribute pornographic videos”, so it was built first and foremost without a lisence, hence it was against the law. also, the police were sent to raid flats that were also breaking the law and seem to discover this.
In our country, before we depart for work in Saudi Arabia, our government ensures that we attend a pre-departure orientation seminar which thus includes basic information and the do’s & dont’s in the country of our destination, which is KSA, in this case. Hence, we know before-hand that we could only practice our own religion in the confine of our homes or in private. We don’t have any problem with this as we are a nation who respects other nation’s culture, tradition, religion and what-have-they.
I do not know with the Indians in Riyadh who were practicing their religion if they were oriented with the regulations of the Kingdom before they set foot in KSA. Seeing other religions’ shrine of worship in KSA is not a normal sight indeed.
It goes down to one thing, RESPECT that is! Give respect to the host country. Whatever tradition, culture, religion, dress codes, ways, norms, etc… that Saudi Arabia has, it has been there for a long long time and it was there for a purpose. Pay respect, if you can’t, then leave to where you can freely do whatever you want. As simple as that!
For us, we came in Saudi Arabia to work in order to feed our family, so be it!
Hi Nas,
We seem to be in agreement on the main point. Islam does not advocate destruction of any temples, and in principals it grants the freedom of worship.
Now, being a Muslim or not, I think this is not the point. But since this seems to confuse you and therefore one can build assumption on it, then yes, I am. But this does not mean that I should not criticize the wrong conducts of people under the cover of Islam (or any other religion).
On the other hand, I read all the article, yet I can not see still a reason to destroy the temple even if it was used for against the law acts. “Needs do not justify Means.” Destroying the temple because of that is not good justification.
As for the licence, we all know that Saudi will not give any licence to build any temples for religions other than Muslims. having said all that, my question is, does that law applies on Americans in Saudi? don’t they have churches inside their compounds? don’t they have alcohol drinks of all sort? Was it destructed like the Hindu’s? Or they are above the law?
Nas, Now I think that the “suspected of being used to manufacture alcohol and distribute pornographic videos” was somehow an “added topping” for the piece of news.. it is like the “good enough cause” to do whatever.. very similar to “suspected to have weapons of mass destruction” .. all you have to do is to say it enough times fort people to believe it..
The issue here is that Saudi Arabia PREVENTS any religious practice than Islam. You don’t have the right to practice whatever religion you have if it is not Islam, and even Islam you have to practice it the way they find fit. This mentality is what we are discussing here..
Joe,
I agree with you that we should show respect to the host country. However, the point is not abed by the host laws or not. The point is, if these laws respect the other’s religions or not? If they are reflecting the spirit of Islam or not? If these laws are in agreement with Human Rights laws or not?
If Muslims agree that such laws are the spirit of Islam, then why don’t you have them in all Muslims countries? And if they are not, then why do you use them under the umbrella of Islam? Specially that they paint all Muslims as being Barbarians!
One may argue that Saudi has the freedom to put it’s own laws. True, but civil laws only. Not laws under the name of Islamic laws, cause it affects all Muslims in the world and Muslims would be perceived as believers of these laws, which is not necessarily right!
again. Islam does not stop at the borders of Saudi!
“Islam does not stop at the borders of Saudi Arabia”..indeed! But the country “Saudi Arabia” stops at its borders, hence, while you are within the borders of the country, you have to conform with whatever regulations or norms that they have.
I have been a resident of the Kingdom for a long too and I have never violated anything, either leagalities or “normalities”. Life would make it a little easier for expatriates in this country if they will just conform with things legal.
For instance, alcohol & pornographic materials and drugs are strictly prohibited as in the case of the recent raids in Riyadh. The “destroying” of the Hindu makeshift temple is just incidental to the prime purpose of the authorities which is the rounding up of all prohibited commerce in the area, which by the way, are being promoted, manufactured, financed or peddled mostly by south or far east asians (i.e. indians, pakistanis, philipinos, bangladeshis, Indonesians, etc…). Go to the downtown area of Riyadh or Jeddah and you’ll find that most of the people who are peddling pirated CDs and porno-movies are indians and indian subcontinent nationals.
I do not see that the incident is directly religious in nature or propelled at curbing religious rights.
QUOTE: “If these laws are in agreement with Human Rights laws or not?”
Well, people have their own perspective on things. Human Rights is created by humans to protect humans. Human Rights is being practiced within the context of Islam in Saudi Arabia. Again, this is Saudi Arabia. Human Rights is being practiced in the west within the context of the western culture. That is the west! Human Rights must be practiced within a certain context, which depends on the society (nation) in general.
And by the way, “they” don’t paint Muslims as being Barbarians…. you do!
Haitham, I am in no position to defend Saudia, it’s probably one of the worst “representitives” of Islam and it’s misuse. However you have to acknowledge that we can’t make an assumption that they just added this topping to cover for it. Ifwe assume its true then I don’t see the big deal. the temple was illegal, no liscense no permit. And yes Saudia will not grant them one for obvious reasons. When muslims conquer a land there is no compulsion in religion and the temples are left, specifically those of the people of the book, as u know. Its sort of like being a guest in one’s home and respecting their life choices. But in a purly muslim land i believe it’s different. The citizens of that nation are all muslims, non-muslims are non-citizens.
As for the american compound…I would guess they have the works. Again im not defending or advocating Saudi’s regime, its one of the most anti-islamic ones ive ever witnessed.
Isam, like i told haitham, we cant really just assume it was added, its like fabricating evidence on our part :-D
Yes I agree with you about practicing, however im not 100% sure about the rules when it comes to a purly muslim land as opposed to islamic conquests in expanding to foreign lands. most of my knowledge stems from the latter. I will seek a source concerning whether a muslim nation can grant premission for others to practice religion in their borders when they are non-nationals
I did? :-D
Joe, the subject is: Does Islam grant all the freedom of worship or not? The answer is yes. It does. so if that is respected (with different levels) is all Muslims countries, why not Saudi? What makes it so special? And if that is the case, then why this laws applies to minorities? Why is not practiced inside Aramco compounds? Doesn’t that land belong to Saudi?
Nas:
I didn’t assume that. However, even taking it as a fact does not justify destroying the temple. Without going to into details of Islamic laws, however all what they need to do is take them to court. Just like any civilized country would take drug dealers to court. But we have to acknowledge that the temple was not made to make alcohol, it was made for worship, but misused for other means.
Which are? what are the reasons?
Ok, forget the temples. I have Christian friends living in Riyadh who were caught because they gather in one of their homes to pray. They are still in Jail!! What are the “obvious reason” here? They are not Muslims?
And was they Muslims land born Muslims? Did they all converted from other religions to Islam? Or was the Arabian Island ALL Muslim from day one of Islam?
Lest see the numbers of Muslims per country:
1. Indonesia: 182.2 m
2. Pakistan: 136.9 m
3. Bangladesh: 115.0 m
4. India: 108.6 m
5. Iran: 63.9 m
6. Turkey: 61.0 m
7. Egypt: 51.6 m
8. Nigeria: 40.2 m
9. Algeria: 29.1 m
10. China: 29.1 m
11. Morocco: 29.1 m
12. Iraq: 21.4 m
13. Sudan: 20.4 m
14. Ethiopia: 18.3 m
15. Afghanistan: 18.0 m
16. Yemen: 16.1 m
17. Saudi Arabia: 16.0 m
18. Uzbekistan: 15.9 m
19. Malaysia: 10.5 m
20. Mali: 9.4 m
21. Tunisia: 9.0 m
22. Somalia: 8.5 m
And the list goes on. Now (1) Saudi comes #17. So it’s not the biggest nor the only country with all Muslims (although Saudi is not all Muslims). (2) All these countries respect (with different level) the freedom of worships!
I know you are not. Even if you do, I respect that. However, what I’m trying to say here, this is not Islam. At least not what my parents and school thought me to be!
Nas:
Are you suggesting that if I’m a Saudi Christian I can build a church? Come on, you must be kidding me!
Just a quick question. Are you (Haitham) presently or has ever lived (how long) in Saudi Arabia?
If you are not, then I would understand your perspective on that incident in Riyadh. If you are, then you should know that there’s no “WHYs” by now.
Saudi Arabia, like most islamic countries, respects other religions, BUT not the wrong-doings of other religions followers that violates the law of the land and doing transactions that corrupts the whole population in general. Hence, to reiterate again, the “destroying” of the make-shift temple is not the purpose of the raid, it was incidental to it, in the pursuit of the authorities to trackdown illegal commerce , confiscate illegal materials and sanitize the neighborhood.
Jordan is Jordan, U.S. is U.S., Europe is Europe, India is India… just as Saudi Arabia is simply Saudi Arabia! This is the only country left in the world that is 100% muslim among its citizens in the country (or maybe also outside of the country). They want to preserve it that way so they will do their legal (again, in their context) best to remain that way. After all, it’s something to be proud about in a world where people have conflicting beliefs.
For the poor Indians spared by the raid…. and may be for all expatriates in Saudi Arabia…. let’s not make life difficult, either you “live” with it…or leave! Intiendes?
It is funny that you bring up this issue which clearly states that you are not a Muslim or have any understanding of the law of Islam. First of all if you come into my house and place the symbol of your religion it has to be with my permission. Now that Hindu Temple which they have destroyed by the Saudi authorities according to your words!! Was it built by with the permission of the Saudi government I doubt it and the Saudi government have the right to say yes or no. This is just one temple which was obviously was built without permission, compare this to the number of Msjids that are being destroyed by Hindu’s and Sikh’s in India plus the number of Muslims being killed everyday in Kashmir.
This is not the act of sick minded people but it is the act of a sovereign country which abides by the law of Islam which is against the worship of creatures.
Rukaya:
It seems that you have written your comment without going through the discussion here. Therefore, I’ll not repeat myself again. Please before jumping into conclusion, do your home work and read what is written here. But if you are hinting to something else, please spit it. I welcome constructive criticism, as far as it is based on logic and facts.
Now, what you are saying is that: If others are doing me wrong, this justify the revenge?
Sorry, I can’t accept that. “This is jungle law.” If you are so worried about the mosques in India, go to “International Court”. But if you are taking that as an excuse, then that’s not worth the discussion.
“Was it built by with the permission of the Saudi government”
Of course not. Do they give permission for that? But wait! Permission for what? You seem you didn’t read the news article:
So the Indians did not BUILD a temple, it’s just a room converted…
Now, let’s read the International Religious Freedom Report
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor 2001
So before I entered your home, you said that I can worship privately. But you didn’t keep your promise!
So, what are you suggesting here?
Haitham, i wrote a lengthy replied but it seems it wasnt posted, i keep having troubles posting for some reason.
suffice to say, saudia is 20 million people who are saudi origins and they are 100% muslim according to the cia factbook of 2004. there is a difference between going into a land where there are other religions to consider in which case u make room for them..and then theres making room for them to enter ure land. im looking at this logically so perhaps islam has a set guideline concerning this and it probably does.
but looking at this case i have to say to myself why they were there in the first place…there were people breaking saudi laws and one of those laws is not being able to establish a place of worship without a permit (which is a law in every nation)…now whether theyd grant this law or infringe on religious rights or if islamically it’s not allowed…that is another issue altogether. but it makes no sense not to shut the operation down if they are breaking a national law.
I agree with Rukaya on this, though of course, I have to reiterate it again and again (do I have to?) that the primary purpose of the auhtorities in the raid, is to round-up illegal business on the area as it is really uncontrollably flourishing which is one of the prime problem that is sickening the saudi society which would never have thrive if not for these very same “other” nationals who promotes such illegal activities or businesses. “Destroying the make-shift temple is not a part of the purpose, though it was (I presume) seen as a threat and/or a place (I would emphasize – not the religion) that catalyze congregation that promotes the illegal commerce of people around the area. After all, most of the people who were caught up in the raid are of indian continent or sub-continents.
As for Mr. Haitham, being of other religion, you would never get a full grasp of the Islam religion and how it works in Saudi Arabia. Islam is a comprehensive lifestyle, it is how people in this country move, breath and work.
If not for the illegal commerce promoted by the very same people thriving that area in Riyadh, the sanctity of the Hindu makeshift shrine could have been preserved. It could have remained “private”. Now, it supposedly became “public” as it was already exposed! Blame it on the illegal commerce “they” are propagating!
So, it seems that most of you here decided that I’m not Muslim :-)
Sorry, I have to disappoint you, coz I am. Many of my friends here know me and my family personally. However, it’s good to note that when we disagree that means I’m of “other religion.” Therefore, I should not talk about subjects that touch Muslims. This is pathetic guys, it makes me feel sick.
OK guys, sorry to disappoint you here. In fact in this blog you will hear most of the time, “WHAT YOU USUALY DON’T WANT TO HEAR. THE TRUTH.”
As far as the opinions reflected here, they are all respected. But remains personal opinions. Most of them were not supported by any facts or enough logic to convert me.
Giving yourself the right, doesn’t mean you are right!!
Get moving guys, it’s coming to a blocked end…
Sorry Naseem. Maybe the reply was too long to fit, or got caught in spam filter. But I don’t see any pending comments, and as you can see I’m not filtering any here!
Haitham, didnt mean to imply u were filtering or censoring. :-)
Dear Haitham,
[quote]As far as the opinions reflected here, they are all respected. But remains personal opinions. Most of them were not supported by any facts or enough logic to convert me.[/quote]
Sorry that you feel bad(?) about the whole thing, but I guess this is how it should be, you started a personal “opinion”, definitely, it will be replied on with other people’s opinion, some base on facts, other based on their own perspective on things. You have yours, they have or we have ours too, the thing is, we have to respect each others opinion. If you may differ in beliefs or religion, still we are all human beings gifted with brains that gives us freedom to think what is right and what’s wrong. We live in a world where there are various types of interest – personal or as a general population. Whatever happened in Riyadh has been viewed by authorities and the local population as deemed necessary to protect the general population in this specific demographic. Then, you have your opinion, they have theirs too. Let’s respect that.
[quote]OK guys, sorry to disappoint you here. In fact in this blog you will hear most of the time, “WHAT YOU USUALY DON’T WANT TO HEAR. THE TRUTH.”[/quote]
Everyone wants to hear the truth. You say, you’re a muslim… therefore, you already know what is the TRUTH, as far as I know, the truth is your religion… and that’s ISLAM.
Would you believe me if I tell you that I am not a muslim? I am just airing my opinion on things (just like you do) based on what is right and what is wrong according to my own / personal judgment and how I see things from where I stand.
Bottom line is…. you set this blog as a congregation of various opinions from various people of various nationalities and cultures. So you have to expect that there would always different sides of any story…. requiring different views.
Do not be disappointed, this thing is good, you started something good here. Keep up the good work.
Kindest regards……
Joe
No harm done, Joe. Enjoy your time ;-)
Regards
I agree with Haitham here, during the crusades Salahudin (forgive me if I ahev spelt it incorrectly) defeated the crusaders and took control fo Jerusalem for a couple of years. He agreed to allow the inhabitants to continue to worship their religions and promised never to destroy any area of religious importance.
The saudi government would never allow any foreign religion to be worshipped in Saudi Arabia. A Norwegian friend of mine wore a cross on his neck and during a routine check the cross was exposed. He was unaware that it had happenned and continued to walk around. He was jailed and lashed 40 times for that innocent mistake. Don’t presume to tell me that it wasn’t a barbaric punishment. I am not trying to stand up FOR USA here, but all I hear is complaints of barbarism by United states on suspected terrorists. If that seems so barbaric, perhaps one should look towards Saudi Arabia where barbarism comes aplenty.
All saudis Muslims,Who, what, How? Makes me laugh!!!
Gone are the days
Lost that long time ago I think since generations.Muslims where muslims only during Prophets time.
At least give it a try to become muslims.
Actually all Saudis are Muslim by definition – whether they act like Muslims is another question. Certainly once some of them cross the border to Bahrain/Dubai they do partake in certain activities not otherwise available in Saudi and seemingly not sanctioned by Islam. However, 20% of the population aren’t Saudis (like me) and some of that number aren’t Muslims (like me). I agree with Joe Nobody that if we choose to live here we agree to play by their rules. Therefore, I am not going to build a church or open a pub (and everyone here knows open displays of alternative religions will not be tolerated). I also agree that it is very easy to sit outside the Kingdom and take pot-shots at the choices they make in running their country. Gladwyn thinks corporal punishment is barbaric. In my home country we think capital punishment is barbaric. That doesn’t mean I think the US is full of barbarians any more than I think Saudi is. It’s surely all a matter of interpretation from your own cultural perspective. That non-Saudi Muslims think that the Saudi interpretation of Islam is misguided is simply another example of this.
Great post Sandman, spot on. As a Muslim, I hope that change is coming to the people of “Saudi” Arabia. Insha’Allah. The government there is corrupt and has only the wishes of the ruling elite in mind. They care no more about Islam than they do their people. They use it to continue their stranglehold over the people.
Sandman, that is quite a stretch in “cultural perspective” to say that capital punishment (which is almost always for brutal murder) could for a moment be equated with whipping for forgetting that a cross might be seen. The Saudis I have met aren’t by any means barbarians, but it there are practices that fit the bill.
I have to agree with Joe Nobody, it is clear we come from different backgrounds but at least we have one thing in common and that is we know Saudi Arabia from inside. To judge that country you have to live there long enough, mix with its people from different regions before you can pass any judgement. Whether it is true or not and whether we like it or not Saudi Arabia is the only country where it has no law exept Sharia’ law (which is supposedly derived from Holy Qura’n),now somebody might say this law is applied only towards the poor not the wealthy, this could be true but it is not what we are talking about. Prophet Mohammad (Pbuh)instructed Muslims in his last speech (Farewell Speech) that only one religion should be in the Arabian Penensula and that is Islam, one God to be worshipped and it is Allah. It is a clear cut belief. Non-Muslims come to Saudi Arabia for one single purpose and that is work, and work is what they should do, what you do inside your house is your own business and no body will bother you, but if you try to sell home-made alcohol it is forbidden, you can worship Budda but do not build a temple and invite others to join you in there that is illegal. Everybody knows that Singapore prohibits many things among which is chewing gums, even tourists will be punished if they break the law over there. Try slaughtering a cow in India, you are in a big trouble. I am not defending the regime in Saudi Arabia, I can say many things against it, but the issue here is not freedom of speech or expression, or Human Rights violation, it is simply a Shariat Law which no body can argue with.
14Rukaya Says:
This is just one temple which was obviously was built without permission, compare this to the number of Msjids that are being destroyed by Hindu�s and Sikh�s in India plus the number of Muslims being killed everyday in Kashmir.
This is not the act of sick minded people but it is the act of a sovereign country which abides by the law of Islam which is against the worship of creatures.
Having lived in the gulf since my formulative years, and even surrounded by muslims most of my life… i never found religion as a major barrier between human beings… and rukayyas statment above makes it evident that he doesn know what he/she is talking about….
there are more mosques in india than in any other muslim country in the world… and the fact that the second largest muslim population in the world speaks volumes on the religious tolerance of india…
muslims killed in kashmir are killed by fellow muslims for their own vested interests… the state receives more priviliges and funds by the constitution than any other state… also there are hundreds killed everyday in iraq and pakistan and they are by fellow muslims… and no hindu anywhere in sight or among the dead… read the news…
islam is a religion of peace to those who understand the true meaning of religion…
you can mock at the relgion of a christian, hindu, buddhist etc in front of one and most likely he or she will not bother much thinking that your crazy… whereas if you tell do likewise to a muslim… he will go crazy and your house could be torched with you and your family inside…
enlighten me…
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