No, I'm not kidding. Alarabiya reported this... marriage (in Arabic) and here is my translation to part of the article, followed by my comments:
After Almesyar marriage, blood, cassette, secret, on home, and the pleasure marriage, lately in Saudi Arabia a new form of weird ways of marriage is spreading called "Almesyaf Marriage" (Summer Holiday Marriage) specially between businessmen and businesswoman, to travel together during summer holidays in a state of husband and wife, but breaks as soon as the return home.
The businessmen have some conditions in these "travel wife", most important is that she should have good command of English language both spoken and written, nice looking, sexy and do not mind attending mixed parties.
Some of the Gulf Ameers put condition that the Saudi woman for such marriages should be from a rich powerful and known families, white skin, pretty face, sexy and accepts to travel with him anywhere in the world, specially during summer, she should have good command in English, and the pay (Maher) is not less than 150 thousand Saudi Riyal plus a car and a top class villa.
On the other hand, it's not only businessmen who are looking for wives. Also Saudi Businesswomen go looking for a husband to become "Mehrem" for her during her travel abroad, in a condition that the husband should give her the permit to travel while he should accompany her, but do not stop her from going anywhere once they are outside Saudi Arabia. All that for in return that he can live with her or she buys him a car, etc...
Sheikh Ahmed Abdulqader, an Islamic consultant and a legal marriage officer in Saudi Arabia say that "Summer Holiday Marriage" is important so that men do not fall in prostitution during their travel abroad, specially that some woman are lately not ready to devote enough time for their husbands due to their life occupation, so the husband understands these circumstances and therefore such different type of marriages become necessary such as "Summer Holiday Marriage".
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Mrs. N.C. 33 years old, married her friend's husband with the knowledge of her friend and family, who understood the necessity of her getting married before she can travel aboard to get her Ph.D
Is this legal prostitution or not? Come on, this sucks!!! Is this the rights the Saudi woman are looking for? I mean how can they call for right (these rich ladies) while they act in such a such prostitution mind? Is this the freedom you are fighting for? I mean how you want us to sympathy with Saudi ladies when we hear all of this shit? Com'n, have some dignity and honor, and I'm speaking only to those Saudi woman who accept and believe in such cultural failure. You suck, you are no more than a prostitute and for those men, you are no more than sex sick maniacs, and should be hanged from your balls. I don't even feel sorry for you, you made me feel disgusted, and shame of being called an Arab citizen!
Contextually Related posts:
I wouldn’t go as far to call it prostitution, but that is one of the saddest things I’ve heard in my life. I can’t believe how lowly regarded the convictions of marriage, religion, and respect are in this issue.
It’s revolting.
So who do you think is to blame? The religious authorities for not realizing that religion evolves with time? The culture of Saudi Arabia for not realizing that they need to loosen up a little? The “batha’7″?
It’s sad, it’s just so sad.
I really hope someone gives this issue deeper thought than just “illegalizing” it. It’s very serious and ought to be thought about seriously in all its implications.
I have read this article several times, and i agree with Roba…. it is really sad as Roba said that marriage is viewed so lowly in our culture… but it is because marriage is not only considered a necessity but an achievement… I mean i know this will sound horrible, but to be honest, I do give these women the slack of understanding! i mean if you are in their shoe what would you do? you are a woman, trapped in a society where if you amke one wrong move you would be in a situation where death is more merciful… you have two choices, you could lie down and wait to your death… or you can live and fight but you have to choose sick methods in a sick society…
The point is, we can not judge people, when we dont know what they go through, and for sure if these women have freedome they would not have to do this….to reply to your sentence is this the freedom you are fighting for.
Haitham … please do not misunderstand me, i am not defending this at all.
I’m not misunderstanding anyone of you. In fact I agree with you, but I look at it from different angle. What is prostitution? It is the act of granting sexual access for payment. It may be performed by females or males for either females or males. A person selling sexual services is a prostitute.
Now the fact that they do not have freedom to “travel” does not justify selling themselves, specially that the reason for doing that is pleasure and joy, not that they cannot marry. But the intention is travel and joy by all means from both men and woman.
Legally or not, that is another problem. A piece of paper stamped by the government does not change the fact that the reasons behind it is purely sexual pleasure.
Therefore, freedom has nothing to do with this situation. Imagine that they have the freedom, then what will be the case here? Legal prostitution? In other words, regular course of sex without fear of punishment. Is that the freedom we are looking for, for our sisters in Saudi?
I have nothing against such freedom by the way. That is up to each to decide what is good for her/him and what is not. But freedom stops when denial starts. Denial of our values, and this is where we should say no to such freedom, be it new way of marriage or sex without marriage. Both of the above is not of our culture and therefore cannot be tolerated.
Now judging people. Of course we can here. Specially that the cases are very clear and speaks of itself without any doubt that it is a form of prostitution. I just can’t be polite and say, they are free, they are part of our societies, wither we judge them or not is not a matter who, but a matter of why we judge them. What both these men and woman are doing is wrong, and what they are doing is a form of prostitution, and they carry the tag of Arab and Islam!!!
Forgot to mention the “marriage” part by itself. I think we all agree that marriage is a relationship and bond that plays a key role in the definition of families. The act of uniting a man and woman for life… Marriage was instituted by God himself… Marriage is honorable in all, were men and woman are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family, an intimate or close union.
The problem rises here by tying all these names before marriage making it (marriage) unholy, kind of business, loses all it’s values and in fact should not be called as such “marriage” anymore, unless we look at the sexual action in it only. But then even unmarried couples can have sexual action, right? But they are not married, that is not marriage!
Therefore, what are they called? Friends? Couples? Maybe. But not in our society and culture. In the west, this kind of relations are acceptable, but not in ours. So what is this relation called in our society? Marriage? It can’t be as I explained before. So what is left?….. I think you can guess it now!!
I am shocked that you are blaming the women for this tragedy. The problem is created by the man dominant exclusive club that ruled this ancient kingdom for the last thousand years or so. Saudi women have not rights, no power, no previlages. They cannot even drive cars and the list goes on. And when they take desparate meausres to get out of that dead socieyt, educated male like you balme the victims and forgive the abusers.
I agree with Haitham. It is prostitution and can’t be called otherwise. I think it is even more absurd that religious authorities are legalizing it from their stand point (although at this point, I have come to expect anything from religious scholars, especially Saudi ones). This is another evidence of the failure of the social system that exists in many Arab communities, regardless of the country. However, I disagree with Haitham that this sort of action is acceptable in “the west”. Living together as an unmarried couple may be what’s acceptable and in a sense, as long as both partners are true and faithful to each other, “marriage” becomes a mere legal binder that organizes things like inheritance and custody of the children. A man that accepts such a wife is certainly a sleazy seeker of a religious excuse for his actions. The “khattabeh” in this case is a Madame and, I reiterate, the wife is one who sells her body for money. Marriage is much more than an agreement and a witness.
I didn’t, Issam. If you read the post fully you will note that in the last paragraph I pointed to both men and woman. Both are equal in sharing the blame. Plus this is not about woman rights, it’s about what money can buy for both woman and men!!
Hope you didn’t miss my comments too!!
And by the way, woman is not a victim in this story. If you read the story carefully, you will see that men are also “victims” in that sense. Saudi business woman also bought men for pleasure. Should they (Saudi men) claim for their rights too now?
Isam, you are partly correct however this sort of behavior takes place not only in Saudi Arabia. It is also found in countries which, offer reltively more freedom to women. And as you have read in the article, some women become “mesyaf wives” by choice.
Jameed, I agree with you that in the west that sort of living together as long as both partners are true and faithful to each other is acceptable, however isn’t it also true that that relation might not end up into marriage and is not also condemned nor denied in the west. On the other hand, marriage is not that holy relation anymore in most of the western culture, with reservation on how much that varies from country to another.
Bottom line is that non of this is acceptable or can be considered as marriage in OUR culture and societies as I said before.
At my most charitable, I would call them marriages of convenience, and fruits of borebom and excessive restriction.
This is what they call “Not seeing the wood for the trees”
The whole point of sexual monogamy and ultimately marriage is to build a coherent and stable society. These are business marriages, like hiring a contractor or consultant. Do the job, reap your benefits and get a move on.
But I guess that tells you what situation the Tragic Kingdom has come to where a marriage has become what you get out of it rather than the rewards of marriage itself.
“marriages of convenience” :-)
Nice way of putting it, John. I liked it, put I still prefer to call it what it is!!
Prostitution. Sorry guys, truth hurts.
I agree with haitham all through but on what point… Freedom is not to be blamed for this, on the contrary if these women hadve freedom, they would NOT do this… and it is not about traveling or dsex or joy… it all these things put together with other million things… I do blame women for this, and i blame men, and i blame our hypocracy as muslims to allow our religion to be distorted in this extremely ugly, unrespectful way… well i just deleted what i wanted to say next…too crude! anyway you got the point… and yeah, I do believe in women right vehemently! and i hate what women have been degraded to in this culture!
While this may look like prostitution, and in a way is, we have to look at the underlying social aspects of this is taking place. WE have to understand why this is happening to be able to fight it and show what is wrong with it.
The major problem here, at least for the businesswoman is that these women are not allowed to travel on their own. If they are working in Saudi Arabia, and their boss wants them to travel for business, these women’s parents will not let them go because it is ayb for women to travel on their own. The idea that a woman would be accompanied by another man on this trip, without being married, would be a disgrace. So, the authorities that be I guess are recognizing, at least for the woman’s aspect that more women are working and need to travel, yet is she travels alone, its wrong, so they thought of this stupid rule. As for the guys who marry someone while traveling, that’s just prostitution. Kind of reminds me of the movie pretty woman. Any way, the story where a woman married her friend’s husband for the summer, we call that here in America as swinging. And, if you take the whole money aspect out, when a guy travels with a woman and they are intimate, we all that relationship boyfriend and girlfriend! I swear I am so ticked off right now and can’t write coherently. Yes, indeed there are fundamental problems within this culture that needs to be fixed right away or we will be stuck where we are forever. But thinking about this whole thing, can someone answer this question for me. I have no understanding of this at all, and I just really need someone to give me a straight answer because I keep on getting different ones. Why are Muslim men allowed to marry more than one woman?
Linda, while I agree to the fact that the Saudi businesswomen are not allowed to travel alone for business, therefore she get an inmate, but although the original story at Alarabiya didn’t mention this, however isn’t’ it possible that businessman marries businesswomen and both agrees that this marriage is nothing but for both enjoyment, while a pass for the woman to travel? So, yes the system does not allow her to travel alone, yet hitting two birds in one stone, travel and legal sex!
As for your last question, Linad. I’m afraid that you will never get an answer that fully fits today life. I mean, looking at it from “Islamic” point of view, they say that woman in all societies are more than men by nature. therefore, they enable to protect them from “haram” activities, Islam allowed men to marry four. Why four not five or three, I have no idea.
On the other hand, historically (and I know I will upset some fanatics and/or conservatives now), Muslim men actually can end up with four wives and unlimited number of “slaves”, which he have the right to sleep with. These are called “Ima’a”, and the support for this is a Koranic verse “Wama Malakat Aymanokom”, which is translated to “what your right hand grab”, and meant by it, those woman that they bought or captured during war. Again, the reason here for allowing this according to Islam is to protect these slave woman from “Haram” sexual activity.
This is my humble understanding, and excuse me if I’m wrong or ignorant in this particular subject. I’m open for correction in this regard, wadomtom!
tell me something, as i am totally ignorant on this topic, does this ayah also include women? can women sleep with their slaves? I mean most ayat in Quraan address both men and women..?
tell me something, as i am totally ignorant on this topic, does this ayah also include women? can women sleep with their slaves? I mean most ayat in Quraan address both men and women..? as for Linda… my advise on this question is make your own research, because no one will really give you a straight answer. i would advise reading someone called Layla Ahmad… her books are all about this.
I think you are on to something when you write:
“Couples? Maybe. But not in our society and culture. In the west, this kind of relations are acceptable, but not in ours. So what is this relation called in our society? Marriage? It can’t be as I explained before. So what is left?….. I think you can guess it now!!”
Correct me if I am wrong but from my experiences in Jordan, platonic relationships between men and women seemed very limited. If a guy and girl are alone somewhere it is just assumed that something sexual happened… in my opinion this assumption comes from a deeper assumption that men cannot control their passions and thus if something happens it is the women’s fault. (How convenient for the man). This assumption is evident also when the Sheikh says that these travel marriages are “so that men do not fall in prostitution during their travel abroad,” Since the west is full of promiscuity in the Sheikh’s eyes these men wont be able to control themselves.
It seems when a Saudi man and woman travel together on business in the west it might be assumed by their families in Saudi that since they will end up alone together at some point a sexual encounter of some kind will happen. Thus the only way to reconcile this is to make it “legal”.
These Saudi businessmen and businesswomen traveling abroad are caught between two sets of societies. The western and “modern” set, where men and women are expected to work together on projects and maintain a professional relationship, and a “traditional” set (Saudi’s society more specifically) where a platonic relationship outside of marriage is limited. Marriage is the only way for the norms of both societies to be pleased. The Saudi businessman can not force the Saudi businesswoman to wear a veil while doing business in the west, since western companies would be uncomfortable doing business with them, yet in Saudi the two can’t just go off on a business trip spending tons of time together unmarried. With this temp marriage both norms are satisfied. “So what is left?” you ask… well if it is already assumed a sexual encounter will occur and they get married to please societal norms, it is not surprising a sexual relationship occurs.
A very interesting case.
Madas, of course not. The ayah does not give this right to women.
Thanks for the tip about Layla Ahmed. However I could not find any links to her books. Could you guide me with some links if you have please.
Thanks in advance.
A’7 this is such a painful topic… I’ve been reading the comments on it with shock and horror all day.. I don’t know what to think anymore! I’m already an extremely cynical person, and such things make everything worse for me!
I still don’t think that the women are to blame. Women in the Arab world are the victims of everything, from religion, to culture, to
customs, to men. Even in Jordan where things are going relatively extremely well for women, I still find the restrictions imposed by society terribly depressing and extremely limiting. It is sad that women feel obliged to get married so that they can go on business trips!
This is bad tidings for both women and men though… I mean, in this article, Ahmed Abdulqader said that these marriages are legal so that the MEN will stay away from prostitution… I’m not a man, but if I were a man, I’d be extremely offended at how Sheihks look at men with the view of being uncontrollable sex animals. As a woman, I’m extremely offended at how Sheiks look at women with the view of being sex toys to “ward off the uncontrolable animal behviour of men”. What the hell..
Linda, I’m not a religious person so I’m probably not the best answerer, but I’ve read that the 4 woman marriage deal was allowed during the Prophet’s time for the following reasons:
1. During the preIslamic times, polygamy was allowed and a man could have an unlimited amount of wives. Islam, as a new religion, couldn’t just come and ban off polygamy as it was a very essential aspect during the preIslamic times.. and thus, it limited them to 4 as a start.
2. At that time, Muslim men were scarce and a lot were dying during futoo7at, and polygamy was allowed in special cases where women were left husbandless or for political ties in the sake of Islam or whatever.
Anyway, like I said, I’m no expert, and I find this topic revolting and savage. Any man who takes more than one woman as a wife deserves to rot away. Forever.
And ufff shu protect women hay from sexual activities? I think it is so much more respectable to go around sleeping with whoever you want to sleep with because you enjoy it than to go sleep with your master so that “you stay away from the haram”!
Chris: Correct me if I am wrong but from my experiences in Jordan, platonic relationships between men and women seemed very limited.
You are right, but to certain extent. I don’t know which period you are referring to, but I can say that this has changed dramatically at least in the last five years. You might find it very limited with by size now, but it probably were next to negligible 5-10 years back.
Chris: in my opinion this assumption comes from a deeper assumption that men cannot control their passions and thus if something happens it is the women’s fault.
If I got you right, you mean from the society point of view, yes. This is how it is looked at. Ignoring the fact that women also has passion and might seduce the man, yet he will not be blamed anyway.
Chris: These Saudi businessmen and businesswomen traveling abroad are caught between two sets of societies.
We have to remember the fact that businesswoman can’t travel abroad alone, so they have to have a man with them, and he should be related of first degree, like father, brother, husband, etc…
On the other hand, businessman don’t have to be accompanied by anyone. so the fact that he marries in such manner so he will not fall in “haram” (prohibited) acts is ridiculous. I find this very ridiculous. Because he can’t control his physical desire he play around the religion and get himself a paid in advance “bed company” that ends as soon as he is back home!
Back to “caught between two set of societies”, why is it only the Saudi businessman have this problem? Does he have a special extra passion and desire more than other mankind? similarly goes for the Saudi businesswoman. What makes her different than other businesswoman (other than traveling alone). Is she a kind of itself with so much passion that she can’t control if she is alone? The answer to both question is NO.
So what they don’t have the right to drive their won car? Did driving make Jordanian ladies have less desire? So what Saudi businesswoman can’t wake without cover her face? Does walking with full makeup in the center of a mall in Bahrain make the Bahraini ladies have less desire? and the list of, “so what” can go on and on.
This is no more than excessive boredom and money for both man and woman. What more freedom do you want to see than a businessman or businesswoman freedom to pay for legal prostitution?
women and gender in Islam by Laila Ahmad is one of the best books i have read about the way islam views women, she wrote another book called broader passage… it is bout her life… her travel from Egypt as a helpless girl to a full university professor in the States… not sure which university though… intersting stuff.
I agree with most of what Roba and Haitham wrote… This whole idea that men and women are animals without any sexual control is obnoxious. The assertion that men will just naturally get into prostitution because boys will be boys is offensive, although I can see why some people in the middle east view western culture as overly sexual…the american pop culture that people are exposed to, like britney spears for example, gives this impression. I had a hard time explaining to some of my jordanian friends that parts of America (like the south and midwest) are much more conservative and traditional than one would think, and marriage and honesty still are values in my society.
I am an American man married to a Saudi citizen, so I have a pretty different vantage point on this one. I think the problem is, in Saudi, it is often very hard for divorced women or women over a certain age to get married. This is more of the cultural bagage that is so crappy about Saudi, and many of the middle eastern state, especially the Khaleji.
I dont agree with this form of “marriage”. From a religious standpoint I think it is haraam. From a societal standpoint it is an indictment of the society and a good representation about how women are so poorly treated.
What’s up Malik?
What about men being treated so poorly and assumed to be beyond hope? As if they will hump anything that moves. Ok, most Saudis are case in point…
…but still…
This article sincerely peeved me, as a “Saudi” Arab young woman, myself. However, here are a few things I thought you should know:
1) These certain types of zeejat- and I do NOT say this in defense of Saudi, mind you- are not only limited to Saudi Arabia. Zowaj al muta’a (an even more gruesome type of “zeeja”, in my opinion) is allowed, and in fact cheered among Muslims all over the Arab world and beyond. I’d highly appreciate it if you write about that, sir.
2) The “bathakh” that you speak of, is no longer apparent. So, these are not “marriages of convenience,” nor luxury. Although seemingly irrelevant , I feel obliged to say that the only time Saudi Arabia was excessively luxurious, luxury being determined by the average “per capita”, was in the late 70’s- early 80’s. Unlike the rest of the gulf Saudi was an early bloomer. It came quick, and apparently is dissolving just as quick. (ps: The Saudi population is throbbing as well, more than its khaleeji neighbors.)
And by the way, 3ammi Haithem, I appreciate your concern for Saudi women :-). However, I just thought you should know that such marriages are frowned upon in Saudi, just as they are in the rest of the Arab world. They disgust us as much as they disgust you.
As for Linda’s Q. Linda 7abeebty, I respect your inquisitiveness, but did you seriously think that this was the right place to ask? I’m going to cite some reasons, but I still think you will never find the correct or at least the quenching answers here.
1)Just as Roba previously noted, the fatoo7at, etc.
2)In the old age, gabel al be3thah, polygamy was the norm. Arab men in the age of ignorance (Al-Jahelyah) were known to marry 8 to 10 wives. Islam came and curbed it a little, it could not prohibit it, not even in a step by step manner like alcohol; as it was too common.
3)Polygamy was also permitted in Christianity and Judaism back then. But since other religions are subject to changes and reforms, things like polygamy vanished. One of Islam’s biggest characteristics (one Muslims usually boast about) is the fact that it is rock-solid. It is considered to be the only religion that remains unchanged to this day. (and Allah knows best..)
I’m sure there is more, only I’m no scholar, imam, nor sheikh. However I do find it relevant to point out that it was mentioned in the Koran that “ 3adel” (fairness, equality, and impartialness)among the wives was an absolute must. And it also was mentioned that no human will be able to be completely equal, therefore it advised them to stick to one, so they do not treat a living being unjustly. Also, Ali Bin Abi Taleb had once approached the prophet asking him whether it be ok for him to marry a second wife, alongside Fatimah, the prophet’s daughter. The prophet did not allow it.
I’m no Imam, but those were just my two cents. Forgive me for the long post 3ammi Haitham :-)
Thank you Farooha for your insight.
I definitely haven’t said that these types of marriages are occurring is Saudi only, they are all over the Muslims countries as far as I know except maybe Tunis (I’m not sure, I recall reading something like that somewhere).
This article was translation of the original published by Alarabiya, and as you can see it only speaks about Saudi. Being the richest, biggest, one of the most important countries in the Arab world, and of course the guardian of holiest Muslims place, all of this makes the difference. If this is what is happening in Saudi Arabia, were Islam originated and still surf as the center of the Muslim world, how can we blame the Muslim societies living far from this area, or living in a completely different culture like the west!!
On the other hand, as Roba and you mentioned about the reason of allowing man to marry four womans, if the reason was to reduce the number from 8 to 4, I still can see how is that a reason. And if that applied 1400 years ago, does it still apply now?
Ok, here is a teaser for the ladies here. Would you mind your husband marry up to 4? If yes, why? If No, then aren’t you contradicting the rules of Koran?
There is something wrong here. Either you accept it as a rule. Or refuse it.
Way to go Farooha, great reply.
Haitham, what do you mean by accept it or refuse it? Religion?
If I got married to a man who wanted another wife I’ll probably murder him.. The Koran is not the be all and end all of life, especially as Islam makes that Clear as the Prophet’s(s) sunna is also an essential part of the deen.
Quoting Farooha, “Ali Bin Abi Taleb had once approached the prophet asking him whether it be ok for him to marry a second wife, alongside Fatimah, the prophet’s daughter. The prophet did not allow it.”
Nice teaser :) Lakin, allow me to say that this question, ya 3ammi Haitham, lacks much reason. Religion was never a matter of either, or. Another one of Islam’s praise-worthy characteristics is that despite its authenticity, despite its preservation of every sliver of its policies since 1400 years ago, it remains very much a moderate religion when in its purest form. It’s “deen al wasatyah wal manteq”, the religion of reason, so why must you have us choose between such extremes?
Also, why are you portraying monogamy as one thing and Islam as a total other? Islam was, is and never will be against monogamy. I choose monogamy and the Quraan. It’s pretty much feasible and I’m sure I can one day see it out. Nevertheless, I will answer your question; I am going to answer it asking another; would it be possible that any descendent of the prophet be considered one who has rejected the Qura’an? Of course not. Well, there is a very reliable hadeeth that says that Sakinah bint Hussein, a granddaughter of Ali (and ps: Fatimah, you know, the prophet’s daughter), put various conditions in her marriage contract, including the condition that her husband would have no right to take another wife during their marriage. Was Sakinah a rebel of some such? Was she against the Qura’an? Certainly NOT. She was purely a loving, caring woman. One who knows that if envy were to come in her way, she wouldn’t be the wife she knows she could be. Therefore, she refused to allow polygamy in her home. I choose to take Sakinah as my role model; I choose the Qura’an just as much as I choose love and monogamy.
Now that all you Arab friends out there know what I choose, find me a strapping young man I can shower with everlasting, eternal, [TOTALLY] monogamous, grand spanking LURVE! It’s starting to go off all bottled up inside me ya naas:(
Oh and Roobs, babe don’t quote me, quote Al-Bukhari. ;) (Boy, is SALAM 101 paying off or what?)
Interesting discussion. My opinion is that Islam allows for polygamy based on reasons that are for the most part non existant now. The Prophet (PBUH) had many wives, but look at them. Most of them were older and many also widows. I think the main reason this was allowed for Muslims is because the early Muslim community, because of war and oppression, often had many more women than men. Given the culture and religion, it was important to have a man to take care of these women and their children.
I think similar situations in the Muslim world really do not exist today, with a few exceptions. Most men who take multiple wives do not do so out of altruism, but for other reasons. I think the only place in the world today where it might be justified is in places like Bosnia and Chechnya were because of conflict hundreds of thousands of men have been killed and it is needed.
I think you’ll find that the second, thrid or fourth wives of the men who take them now at days are hardly “masakeen” and need help. More likely they are 20-30 years younger and never been married before.
Oh, and I forwarded the article to my wife. She hates the idea of temporary marriages, although we had a lively debate on how I thought that Saudi culture encourages it. I do not defend it, but I can see why some women do so. The culture needs to be changed or this will only get worse.
lol… Roba, I’m not saying accept or refuse religion. I’m saying accept or refuse a rule of Islam. Marriage is not haram to more than a woman, so why would you kill the poor man :-D
Of course he would not had planed to marry a second wife before he married you, but if he later decided to take that “risk”, I don’t want to be around :-p
Anyway, “Koran is take all.” We can’t just say I’ll accept this, but not that, can I? And the story that the prophet didn’t allow Ali to marry a second wife does not overrule Koran? Does it? Koran say that man can marry up to 4, if the man can balance between them, and he (the man) will never do. He will never do because he is human and that the nature of the humans. No one is complete. So, married second wife comes under ‘Makroh’ (un favored), but not prohibited.
Farooha, I’m not asking you to choose between such extremes, i.e these are not extremes, this is a fact of Islam. However, we all are emotional, and sometimes when it comes to choices such as this, we immediately chose to think with our heart.
Polygamy is not overruled by the Hadith that you mentioned. However, maybe all the ladies should be smart enough and remember to put that condition in the contract :-)
PS. What’s up with 3ami, do I look that old ;-)
The Prophet(PBUH) could not “over rule” The Qur’an. Any Hadith that says anything like that cannot be considered sound. I agree with Haitham, it is basically impossible for a man to treat wives equally, hence it shouldnt be done. Besides, like I said before, 99% of plural marriages now are not done for the reason they were intended for in the first place.
Written “3ammi Haitham” then “What’s up with 3ami, do I look that old?”
No you dont, maybe Faroohra is very young.
I’m not too young,Abu Sinan,(heck, a week from now I turn.. well.. the big TWO O!) I don’t know I was just trying to be respectful. Woops. Don’t worry, 3ammo, you don’t look THAT old! ;) hehehe just kidding. Sorry anyways.. I’ll be calling you (gulp) Haitham, from now on.
Anyways Roba and I weren’t saying that the sunnah over rules the Qura’an! We just said that being women who reject polygamy is no sin and doesnt automatically transform us to women who reject a law in the Qura’an.(because that sounds scary!)
It’s been done by women much better (and more “pious” then us) before.
Anyways, I think in the end we all agree..
Abu Sinan, if the reasons are non existent now, then polygamy should not be allowed anymore. Otherwise, there is a gap between Koran and existing society condition.
On the other hand, you can always find a reason. It can be very silly and a man can claim that his wife is not satisfying him enough. That might be a lie, but then who would now? He ends up having a second wife, and so on.
This discussion reminded me of two situations, funny ones.
First is the example you mentioned about Bosnia and Chechnya, were at that time it was really the story of the year (joke of the year), when so many Arab and Muslims went to Bosnia and Chechnya and got a second wife under the cover that these poor ladies need help. Yes they needed that, but it was really sad to see how human is so selfish and how sex addicted person he can be. Why only these poor ladies? Why not from Afghanistan, or Sudan, etc… So justification can be easy, at the same time it can be far far from the real reasons.
The second thing is the famous TV series, “Hajj Metwali.” I don’t know if you have seen it or not, but it was about polygamy and made a big noise few years ago. No one can deny that it opened the doors for so many debates about the subject, and reached nowhere.
At the end, it’s a world controlled by men, unfortunately!
Farooha :-D
There is nothing to feel sorry about, I was just “teasing” you … again ;-)
Call me whatever you want. Thank you anyway…
Peace!
I see your point about Chechnya and Bosnia. Kind of like your original post where you talk about them looking for white coloured women. You can see the similar acts here in the Washington DC area all of the time. Go to the Four Seasons in Georgetown and you will see whatever Prince or Saudi/Khalijee businessman/rich person is in town that weekend looking for blond American women. There are more than enough American women there willing to spend a night with whomever can “treat” her the way she thinks she deserves.
I knew a Saudi lady here who did such a marriage to a leading player in with al Jazeera here in the DC area. He promised her a car, a house, money, in the end she got nothing, and he got everything he wanted. He was older, she was young. She was in it for the money. In the end she got nothing. Ahsan. She deserved it.
hello everyone, i just read this article and it really shocked me. I just think we Arabs are really losing our religion and our values. I mean what kind of an imam can call this good? This is 7aram there is no doubt about that. Allah hates divorces just like he says in the Holy Quran! So marrying for pleasure and knowing that you will divorce afterwards is really sick! It is prostitution and it is a very sick one too.
saudi arabia is the great land with great people ….WOMEN SHOULD HERSELF REMAIN GOOD OTHERWISE EVERTONE WISHES TO SPOIL THE ROSE BECAUSE IBLESS (SATAN) IS ENEMY OF HUMAN….SO BEWARE ALL WILL IT BE A ARABIAN ARE ASIAN BEWARE OF SATAAN.. HATE AMERICAN DOGS HATE FRIENDS OF AMERICANS WHO CAN THEN BE A PURE FROM CRIMES…LETS START BEING TRUE TO OUR RELIGION WHERE EVER WE R WERE EVER WE BE ….EVERY MUSLIM IS RESPONSIBLE ONLY FOR HIS OWN DEEDS BE GOOD R BAD….SAUDI ARABIA IS PURE LAND WITH PURE PURE PEOPLE BUT SOME PEOPLE HERE R GOING ON THE FOOTSTEPS OF AMERICANS ETC SO THEY R BAD BUT ELSE R TRUE AND SINCERE……..
salfi,
Honestly speaking, I feel of the chair when I read your comment.
So, you are advocating that the world should hate Americans? All Americans? And we should hate their friends, and hate… the world.
Did you realize that you hate yourself? I’m serious. You seem to have a problem, man. You hate everyone, while you think that you and whatever party you believe in, are the only right thing in this world.
I can see that you have just come out from one of these “terrorists–brainwash–kill them all,” schools. If you speak for Islam, then the Islam that you are talking about is only yours. I don’t want to be tagged under the same “religion” you belong to. Although I don’t think that you really know what Islam is.
Islam does not call for hate and blood. Islam is driven from the word “Salam”, that is “PEACE”, you blind brain.
It is sick minded people like you who should be hanged from their balls, right there in the public square.
Go f**k yourself, man. We don’t need crazy people like you in our societies and communities, for you are a disease that should be ripped off our bodies.
Saudi Arabia is a great land, with great people. It is narrow minded (if you have one) like you who keeps dragging Saudi and the rest of Arab and Muslim world to the stone ages.
i think woman in arab are sexy so they might do prostitution . They can sleep with anybody . There breasts are good .arabians are looking for good customers . wafah also!
same goes to any prostitute, not Arab woman prostitute only as it sounded from you.
As for Wafah, she is not Arab, well, not anymore. She don’t want to be. She is begging Americans to accept her because her values are like your values.
If I were American, I would have been offended by what she said, but after all, she got a crowd of her cheap kind everywhere, not only in Arabia or America.
Where can I sign up for this kind of Marriage? lol. send me details please!! .. I’m kidding!!
This is another example of the lunacy in Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud is corrupt and is corrupting Islam by allowing this kind of marriage!!
We need to send a torpedo .. daisy cutter directly to Saudi Arabia for sullying the Country that our prophet hails from.. and our religion’s most holiest sites!
They are Shaitans! I would do a marriage like this just to chop their lolas off!! Disgusting Men! The Quran teaches respect and equality for men and women..not subservancy!!
Salaam!
Hi Salfi
if Saudi Arabia is so poor, I mean, pure in spirit, and so true to the nature of Islam, why do they have a King? The holy Prophet rejected all forms of governance save for shura (consultation, democracy) thus, if something is anti-democracy, it is inherently anti-islam..The Quraysh offered the Prophet the position of a King, if he would only compromise on their desire to worship more than one God…Is this not what is happening today?
The true ruh of Islam is being compromised..in every way, from the economic system of capitalism which exploits the poor, to their treatment of women, pushing them to the background and relegating them to the role of whore, mother, and domestic..
If Saudi Arabia is so pure, why are the Saudi’s the bitches of the very same America you proclaim to hate? How is it then, that you hate the symbol but not the satellite of those symbols?
Have you not heard of the bulldozing of holy sites to build ever more shopping malls?
Saudi Arabia itself is an artificial state created by the British, and sustained now by the Americans…
It is the Saudi themselves, only slightly less complicit than the monarchy, who continue to support the Palestinian occupation, by supporting a monarchy that gives head to the U.S empire every chance they get…
And for that matter, there are many Americans who are not Muslims, but who strive for peace and are thus more Muslim than you. There are Israeli kids who refuse to join the army and are sent to prison…are they then to be hated?
The only person you support with your words are the very same sides you claim to oppose. Covert.
Like those Mullahs and the Taliban…nothing could be further from the spirit of Islam than people like you.
K
Haitham,
I have read this entire blog, start to finish, back again if I didn’t quite get it. This subject is gut wrenching. At the moment I am feeling deflated. No, I am not naive. I don’t remember the Arabic word for the Shiia temporary marriage that exists but I recall this being haram to my family there. This is nothing less than Sodom and Gamorrah with a “licence”. Am I so disconnected due to time that I cannot react with any reasoning? One of my strongest defenses of Islam is the family value system there. I am feeling like everything I experienced was unreal, an anomoly. It is no longer the place I remember. The person above who was so nasty, the Saudi woman, honestly, what rock did she come out of or is this becoming so prevalent there? I read about it but don’t want to believe it. Of course they exist, but how many of them are there? I keep defending. What’s going to be my reaction if someone asks me about this? The women in my family were not like this, you know that. What has gone so very wrong? It also is a pox on Islam. And they cry foul when people talk crap about them. Saudi Arabia, what is wrong with you. You are the home and protector of Islam and this is what you do? Are your imams in a cave and unaware of how this speaks? There are really no words to express my total sadness for a country I loved so much, you are slipping away, or maybe it was, only a dream. Haitham, In one of your posts you said the person was asking the wrong person, you a moderate to do something about radical Islam because you don’t associate with them (or something to that affect). Well it’s time the moderates of Saudi Arabia get up off their rich asses and do something about this downward spiral. They have waited too long to do much now. Let them enjoy their vacations in Europe while their country becomes the laughing stock of the world. And all you Saudi “businessmen” Take your whatever this thing is called with you. We don’t have Afghanistan anymore to kick around. You’re it now. Wake up Saudi Arabia, and that goes for all the “moderates” I love to refer to with pride. You cannot just rest on your laurels and expect the rest of the world, the West and the Middle East to accept this much longer. Women, all women of Saudi Arabia, have some freakin pride. Saudi Arabia, stop this prostitution and for that matter, stop prostituting yourself.
Although I agree that this type of an arrangement is in some ways disturbing, I ca not blame the men and women for getting around the legal crap, Saudi Arabia is by all means an oppressive society, women are treated as second class citizens and therefore some will do what ever it takes to escape it, even if it is for a short time.
In addition to this, who gives any one the right to determine what two consenting adults do in privet is right or wrong…..If a man and a woman wish to have a relationship whether sexual or otherwise who are we to tell them they can no. If as you say god is all knowing then if they are committing a sin they will pay for it later.
By the way just think if the extremists where having more sex maybe they wouldn’t be so angry at the world. Just a though… : )
Salfi
If you hate America and all it’s friends why don’t you then crawl into a cave somewhere, stop using American made computers, TVs, don’t ever fly on Airplanes because they are made in the America, oh and don’t ever use a telephone It was invented by a Canadian, and don’t forget to get rid of all the light bulbs because they are made in china and china is a friend of America, also stop eating rice since it does not grow in the pure Saudi land.
Last but not least who the hell gave the US the permission to launch the first war against Iraq?
Why don’t you wake up and smell the coffee, oh ya coffee is grown in South America and India, guess what they are friend of America..So no coffee for you.
It is disgusting how much hate some people have in their hearts and yet claim to be all holly and riotous, if the Prophet was here today he would have been disgusted with how some have changed and twisted Islam.
Hi Mougley!
Good point about the extremists and sex! But your contention about “getting around the legal crap is slightly flawed. They are “legally” getting around the religious “crap”. Islam has absolute laws prohibiting pre-marital/extra-marital sex and that is what is disturbing about this. Heck, although VERY rare, they still stone women to death. A woman who has been tainted in this manner, what is she to do? Live her life out doing more of this? Imagine at age 60 still beeing a legalized hooker. The supposed home of Islam is making a mockery of it’s own faith which it so righteous about guarding and then they come up with this humdinger of a fandangled temporary marriage law. The culture is so closed that they are about to explode and then some Mullah comes up with an escape hatch: Summer marriage. HA! They are a laughing stock to the rest of the Moslem world as well as to the West. Calling all educated women, must be proficient in English and attractive for a “Summer of Love”. This is exactly the kind of thing that gives Islam a bad name and Saudi Arabia is the one to do it. I just wonder what was in the shisha these Mullahs were smoking!
Apologies for the religious “crap” comment, it was for the sake of flow in my discussion.
Robin
I understand your point, I was not aware that this was actually something that some mullahs or the ruling part actually condone, it is such hypocrisy, and it is just a legalized form of prostitution.
But ultimately it is still the man and the woman’s choice and if they chose to do it then hey they will live with the consequences of their actions.
Mougley,
I “think” it was the mullah’s which did this from what I can understand from above and the links. You are absolutely correct, it’s the individual’s choice but it just makes me ill because of having lived there. A close female Saudi friend of mine actually had premarital sex with her husband/cousin before they wed. She wanted to back out of the marriage and could not because he threatened her. They went on to be married and he beat her. Luckily she was able to get a divorce and go on to be more happily married and have four more children in addition to the one from the horrible first marriage. A divorced woman in Saudi Arabia, depending on the socio-economic status is used property. In this case the new law allows a woman to (with free will) be used in a form of prostitution. This is just plain dispicable as far as I am concerned. It’s like a young girl here in the States being lured into premarital sex for promises of a trip to Disneyland. She is being used, whether or not she is willing. I don’t know. I just sort of have an angle on the Saudi woman angle from having lived there and being married to a Saudi. My ex-inlaws would ABHOR this but I wonder just how many women actually would consider this an option. Maybe Haitham or someone else would know how prevalent this practice is.
Ummm, very interesting debate and a most enlightening one. Any idea on how and where I can find a woman to enter into a temporary marriage with here in Bahrain? Do keep me posted.
Ciao
This is just disgusting.
This is what the rest of us muslims living in western countries call “Friendship with benefits”.
Basically having the pleasures of a relationship without getting tied down.
I don’t think that this is allowed at all in Islam. It’s terrible.
Gosh, if this was allowed, I suppose most of the people that I know would go into this type of marriage. Because I know a lot of friends of mine who don’t want to get married because they don’t want to be “tied down” so to speak.
It’s terrible. A sacred union of nikah getting thrashed.
These articles and replies just make me laugh.
You dont have these problems in non arab muslim societies.
You only find them in the middle east.
Problem is that the Arab muslims, think they are the best in practicing Islam.
Wake up fools, look around you and and see who the new muslims are, those that practice deen 100 %.
Yes, non of them are arab nationals, why..???
because we love Islam, love the Quran and follow the Sunnah..
Go to any sought after holiday destination in the world , including South Africa, and you will see it…”Arabs behaving badly”..the women lose the abaya, the men drink and eat haraam…
sinple…you guys dont love ISLAM
Sheraz.
Holiday marriage is pure prostitution institutionalized to serve the interests of extremely wealthy classes in oil producing countries . It’s absolutely inconsistent with the principles of Islam.Marriage is marriage and the purpose behind it is clear to everybody.And if we all resort to our desires we would simply find a thousand excuses to achieve our egoistic purposes.
This is one of the so many behaviours that contribute to the misunderstanding of Islam and Moslems by non-Moslems.
Mesyaf is not sanctioned by the ulema in Saudi. The reporting was based on some people getting into such marriages but they do not specify that this is so. The agreement is purely between them.
Roba: “Islam couldn’t just come and ban off polygamy… and thus, it limited them to 4 as a start.”
Islam banned many more ingrained things from the preIslamic times like alcohol and many other forms of marriage (including a form where one woman married more than one man). And Islam imposed a limit of 4 not “as a start” but as a ruling forever. Otherwise it would have been reduced gradually.
Chris: “The assertion that men will just naturally get into prostitution because boys will be boys is offensive”. Statistics show that there were over 640,000 rape cases in the US in 1995 alone. Can you explain why? Although, you might find it offensive, this is fact. Despite so many venues available to men in the US for sex why such a high number resort to rapes. For the stats, see http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php
Farooha: See my comment to Roba. The assertion that Islam “could not prohibit it” is an unacceptable claim. Islam prohibited much more ingrained things. Idol worship was also too common. Injustice was also too common. etc. Can’t see what you are basing your point on.
Regarding 3adel, when the Quran mentioned that “no human will be able to be completely equal”, it advised them not to lean towards one wife completely and ignore the other one completely. it did not advise them to stick to one in this ayah as you seem to say. Where it adivsed to stick to one is if a man is afraid that he will not be able to provide for all of them equally.
Regarding the story of Ali Bin Abi Taleb, it was that he was planning to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl and the Prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallam said that the daughter of Allah’s messnger and the daughter of Allah’s enemy cannot be under one roof and that is why Ali radiallahu anhu abandoned it.
I would like to kill a myth for all of you.
It is a scientifically proven fact that blaming liberal rules about pornography or prostitution for the numbers of rape and sex crimes is completely without merits.
This is backed up by several studies and the following figures from Interpol (rapes in the USA and Denmark per 100.000 inhabitants):
USA: 37.09 (1995) 31.77 (2001)
Denmark: 8.44 (1995) 9.22 (2001) 9.31 (2002)
In both countries ‘experts’ think that the real numbers could be 50-100% higher, because there are many cases that are not reported to the police. Actually, the increasing numbers for Denmark is a good thing, because studies have shown that women are more likely to report a rape today than they were 10-15 years ago, so the increase does not necessarily reflect a dramatic increase in rapes.
Why do I mix Denmark into the discussion? Because Denmark has the most liberal pornography laws in the world and a low rate of rapes/sex crimes. Additionally, prostitution is tolerated in Denmark (it is not specifically legalized, but it is not illegal) while it is illegal/not tolerated in most parts of the USA.
I know it is a favorite topic of a lot of the Muslim visitors here to blame people in the USA for being rapist and use it as an argument to promote the purity of believers of Islam. That has no merits either. Proportionally, ethnic minorities are over-represented in Danish studies of ‘crimes against women’ – enough for the right-wingers in Denmark to use the official figures for their propaganda against foreigners :(
Actually, I think that tabooification (is that a word?) of sex, mystification of sexuality, and religious prudeness in general is more likely to be an explanation for the higher number of rapes in the USA. In the USA, sex is largely a taboo and people are a lot more afraid of discussing openly about sexuality while, in Denmark, sex and sexuality is seen as a natural thing that should not be a taboo. Danes see breasts as a natural part of a woman’s body while many people in the USA see breasts as something scandalous – especially if they are shown during Super Bowl ;)
Thomas, it could be probably because in Denmark there is a lot of venues for people to achieve sexual gratification — venues that would be considered illegal or immoral in other cultures. This same argument could be used by those who say that illicit affairs are less common in polygamous societies that monogamous societies.
What I said was not to promote the purity of Muslims but some things to consider as there is a significant number of men who would cross lines when it comes to sex as shown by these statistics — I used rape statistics only as an example. There are other things like broken families which are also high in number in these societies.
I don’t see how taboofication or de-taboofication (now, is that a word too?) of sex can be the cause for the occurrence or the lack of rapes. Just because someone considers sex a taboo, mystifies it or is religiously prude does not imply that such a person is more prone to commit rape. In fact I find such a thought offensive.
Or maybe the low rape rate in Denmark is because Danes have more Lego than others ;)
Abu Ahmed,
Sorry for not making it clear that the ‘Muslim purity argument’ was not directed to you, but to whoever had those kind of crazy ideas.
Statistics are funny things that often obscure something just as much as it clarifies.
If there are a lot fewer divorces in Muslim countries, that does not necessarily mean that a higher rate of Muslim men and women are happily married than anywhere else. Considering that it may be considered more shameful or socially unacceptable to get a divorce in a Muslim country then it may actually mean that in Muslim countries there are more unhappily married couples who are only staying together because religion, culture, or any other factors makes it more ‘desireable’ to live unhappily together than to get divorced. In that case, it may be positive to have a higher than average rate of divorce rather than a lower than average rate.
I do not have the exact numbers, but there is a lot higher rate of divorce in the USA than in Denmark as well.
My impression (I lived in the USA for a year) is that most marriages that end in divorce in the USA do so within the first couple of years while the average time in Denmark is several years longer. I think this is because most Danes ‘try before they buy’ and only a very small portion of brides and grooms are virgins. But, more importantly, most couples that are getting married in Denmark have already lived together for several months or years, so they already know that they love each other and that all their strange little habits are compatible. This, I think, is the main reason why ‘religious prudeness’ may be the main culprit in a high rate of divorces/unhappy marriages.
Mind you, this may sound immoral or offensive to you, but in Denmark this is not immoral and that people live together before they make the commitment to stay together ‘for eternity’ is seen as beneficial for society (recognizing the mess when children get caught in divorce battles).
When I mentioned tabooification, mystification, and prudeness I was not referring to individuals, but society in general (which is often a reflection of the prevailing ideas of the majority).
I don’t know of any statistics about the characteristics of rapists, but let’s assume that there is some issue that prevents him from experiencing closeness with another human being (a natural need). I think it is safe to say that no rapist is unaware that his action is illegal and that it violates the rights of somebody else, but it is very probable that his sexual frustration is higher than his fear of the consequences (legal, religious, or both).
In Denmark, such a person has the possibility of going to a prostitute before he reaches the point where the sexual frustations surpasses the fear of getting caught for rape. In the USA, such a person has to fear the consequences of both going to a prostitute and of rape, so the more the police patrol the prostitute districts and/or the more condemnation, the higher the risk of getting caught with a prostitute gets and if that surpasses the risk of getting caught for rape, then rape is the ‘lesser of two evils’.
It is widely recognized in Denmark that a relatively large portion of prostitution customers are handicapped, either mentally or physically, and therefore prostitution may actually be providing a valuable public service to society :)
This may be offensive to you, but I hope this is the right reasoning for why Muslim men are over-represented ind Danish rape statistics. Statistically almost all rape wictims are Danish non-Muslim women, so I rather think that this fact is due to that there are a lot more of them than non-Muslim women, because the alternative could be that Danish Muslim men find it more acceptable to rape Danish non-Muslim women – that would be racism and I find that offensive.
I would prefer that I am right in my argumentation rather than the Danish right wingers who argue that Muslim men rape non-Muslim women because Muslims are racists!
I don’t know whether my opinion is based on the right explanations, but I find it just as likely as unlikely, so it is a matter of opinion.
By the way, Lego is short for play well in Danish (“Leg godt”). This year my wife and I will have our 6th wedding anniversary and we love each other just as much as the day we got married and I do not have any desire to be unfaithful to her, now or in the future. I am confident that a contributing factor to this is that I do not have the feeling that something is missing or that there is something out there that I need to try, because I have already ‘played well’. So maybe you are right about the Lego ;)
PS: I have never had to pay for sex, but that does not mean that I think prostitution is bad for society or that it should be illegal.
Thomas,
In Islam itself, there is no taboo attached to divorce or divorcees. There are checks and limits so that divorce is not abused. e.g. The man cannot send his wife away from his house for the first three months of divorce. They have to live together. This is so that they if there is a possibility for reconciliation, it would happen. Also, the Prophet sallallahu alaihe wa sallam has said that “The best of you are those who are the best towards their wives”. This all promotes a happy life for all concerned. So, if ‘religiously prudeness’ really existed, you would not have a high rate of unhappy marriages — at least not in a Muslim society.
I can understand the points from your perspective but there is a difference in the premise from which we are discussing these issues. Muslims believe that the Creator knows what is the correct way for us to conduct our lives and where he has laid down rules, they are based on much higher wisdom. Why certain things that might seem acceptable or logical to you would be simply unacceptable as they contradict the guidance by the Creator. The case of Danish Muslim men being over-represented in rape statistics — if this is true — does not in any way mean that Islam promotes racism or Muslims are racists. In fact the contrary is true as such actions fly in the face of Islamic teachings. The Quran says, “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity – [and,] verily, God is aware of all that they do.” (24:30)
This premise pretty much rules out ‘try before you buy’ :) and other sorts of venues that you mentioned.
I still do not get how the taboofication, etc. can contribute to a higher sex crime rate (this is more broader than rape). The prime contributor in my opinion is the lack of personal conscience and general disregard of modesty. I find this to be more likely than any other factor.
Regards,
Abu Ahmed,
It may be that Islam does not forbid divorce, but do you deny that there is more of a stigma of sin or disgrace around divorces in Muslim countries? Very often there is a large difference between theory and practice
The Koran prescribes several rules or principles regarding divorce and I admit that I see some of them as very socially responsible (and I would not mind if they influenced the national laws I live under), but I also see some of the rules as sexist and repressive. I don’t want to go into a Koran debate, just point out that like most other law collections it is not completely good nor is it completely bad! Even though, for you and other Muslims, the Koran lays down the law and even though you firmly believe in it, that does not mean that you are living in a society without flaws and with no crimes.
One of the oldest principles of law that the Danish society is built on is the “Danish Code of Jutland” which was given under King Valdemar II Sejr in 1241. It says (my translation with emphasis on meaning rather than grammar):
“With law shall the country be built, but if everybody were content with their own doing and let others enjoy the same right, then no law would be necessary. But no law is better to follow than that of the truth, but where there is doubt about the truth, there the law shall guide the truth.”
Actually, King Valdemar may very well be the first to write down the principle of liberalism way before “The National Gain” (1765) by Anders Chydenius and “The Wealth of Nations” (1776) by Adam Smith!
Danes firmly believe in the rule of law, but that does not mean that there are no criminals in Denmark or that Danish society has no flaws.
Does it really matter whether you believe that Islam is a higher wisdom or whether I believe that democratic laws is a higher wisdom? Despite these wisdoms, crime is a fact in every society. These wisdoms may contain the definitions of wrong-doings, but they are clearly not capable of fully preventing them!
Despite Islam and despite Danish law, between 20% and 60% of all rape cases in Copenhagen (depending on who juggles the numbers) are supposed to involve Muslim men and something in the area of 75% of gang-rapes in Copenhagen are committed by Muslim men. Though these statistics have a relatively low margin of error, the problem is that Copenhagen is made up of a lot of towns that have melted together, so some of the mathemagicians have included/excluded areas to make sure the numbers fit their agenda – that’s the reason for the 40% spread.
However, across all categories of crimes 10% (official number from the Danish Police) are committed by ethnic minorities who make up only 3% of the population, so overall it is ‘only’ an over-representation of 7%.
I don’t think that Islam is to blame for the higher rate of Muslim rapes in Copenhagen; I have a strong suspicion that the extremist Imams who are preaching that Muslim girls with scarves are pure while Danish women with skirts are dirty whores are more to blame than Islam. It is the same Imam characters who interpret that the Koran says that there is nothing wrong in cheating infidels as long as Muslims are treated honestly.
You said: “The prime contributor in my opinion is the lack of personal conscience and general disregard of modesty.”
To me that is a little bit too vague and not operational as it sounds a bit like ‘Islam is the miracle cure’ and that there is no other solution than religion. This is not to say that your concept does not play a contributing role, but I don’t think it is the root cause and that it is a bit more complicated than that.
Danes are not very religious and people will rather look for a scientific answer than a religious one. Therefore we do not believe in hereditary sin or that people are unexplainable evil by nature. This is the age old discussion about heritage vs. environment. We believe the environment has the largest impact on forming personality traits!
While some of the radical Islam arguments may play a role in the higher crime rate, I think that it is the Danish society and the parents that have to carry the major part of the blame. On average the unemployment rate for ethnic minorities (primarily 2nd generation Danish Muslims) is twice as high as the unemployment rate in general, but there are some areas where unemployment among young Muslims is around 40%!
Sure, there are cases of discrimination against Muslims, but that cannot explain why the number is that high. There is plenty of research to prove that the more parents involve themselves in the education of their children the better chances they have on the job market. This is why both the Danish society and especially the immigrant parents have to take their part of the blame, because they have both failed a large part of the 2nd generation Danish Muslims.
For many years the Danish integration policies have been pretty much laissez-fare (give them a job and money and let them integrate themselves). Danish language classes (and Turkish and Arab for their children) were/are offered free of charge, but there were no requirements demanding that immigrants should learn Danish or take a crash course in Danish culture. The result was that a lot of Muslim women (mothers of the 2nd generation) could live completely shielded from Danish society and it was rather the rule than the exception that an immigrant Turkish woman would not be able to speak Danish and that she had no clue about the country she was living in – even after more than 20 years in Denmark.
But regardless of Danish integration policies, the immigrants themselves also have responsibility to integrate in their new society. The sad truth is that most often the husband would speak Danish and meet Danes through his job while the wife would remain just as Turkish as the day she arrived, because she would only be socializing with other Turkish women. All the years I went to primary school, the parents of our 2nd generation class mates NEVER showed up at parents meetings, parent consultations or for extracurricular activities. And, a mother that does not speak Danish is clearly not capable of helping her child doing homework.
Statistics show that a majority of those 2nd generation Muslim Danes who have jobs – everything from carpenters to doctors – grew up with parents that both learned Danish and who involved themselves in the education of their children. In Denmark, schooling is free up until university where minor fees for books etc. have to be paid, so none of the immigrants can come and say that Danish society never gave their kids a chance to get a good education!
That is why I let the 1st generation immigrants (the parents) carry the major part of the blame and Danish society in general only the smaller part. I am myself an immigrant in Hungary and I can guarantee you that I am not sitting on my ass and waiting for Hungarians to show up at my door to integrate me!
I know you do not agree that puritans are more focused on sex, but my experience with Americans is that they have an almost unhealthy infatuation with sex and I contribute that to the lack of information and stigmatizing the subject. One example I can give you is the huge increase in sales of Sports Illustrated when they come out with their annual Swimsuit Edition; we are talking something like three-four times the normal number of copies sold. Don’t tell me that it is because a large group of US American men are really interested in swimwear fashion :) Another example is provided by Sabbah in http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/05/12/who-is-searching-for-sex/
I think it is a natural thing that if something is forbidden or scarce, that makes it the more interesting (with limitations of course). My personal experience is that I find girls with dark/black hair and brown eyes very beautiful while most Hungarian men are more intrigued with blonde girls. Hungary is heaven for me in this respect, because I am living with the most wonderful woman (also fitting my appearance preferences) and there is still so much beauty to appreciate around me. I grew up with an abundance of blonde chicks, so I find them extremely boring when we talk about looks.
Thomas,
There is no sin attached with divorce in Islam. There is sin on the man if he harms his wife or treats her in violation of Islamic teachings in the divorce process. But there is no sin attached to divorce itself even though it is discouraged.
Regarding the rules prescribed in the Quran, somebody who has not learnt about it fully might see it as sexist or repressive. But most people’s opinion regarding this is based on biased sources and not the direct study of the rules themselves. As these rules are based on the premise that I mentioned earlier, i.e. the Creator knows what is better for his creation, it is not logically possible for them to be bad as they do not have the shortcomings that man-made laws have. There is a difference between a society having flaws/crimes and the correctness of the laws. These flaws/crimes are not the result of these laws but actually due to people not following them.
The rape cases in Copenhagen that you mention are not ‘despite Islam’. Actually, it is due to these people disregarding Islamic teachings otherwise they will not have made their way into these statistics.
The reason that ‘ethnic minorities’ have an over-representation in crime rates does not necessarily mean that crimes committed by the ethnic minorities are higher. It is very probable based on the info that you have given that ethnic minorities have a higher rate of conviction in courts as they cannot speak Danish well and can easily be accused and convicted while natives know their way and can convince the judges to acquit them. Hence ethnic minorities could be over-represented due to this. As you said statistics obscure just as much as they clarify.
Also, I would be surprised if Imams there consider it ok to rape women considered ‘dirty’. There is no way that any person with any knowledge of Islam can ‘preach’ such things. Also, it can never be said that Islam says that there is “nothing wrong in cheating infidels”. The Quran says: “and never let hatred of any-one lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do.” (5:8)
Thomas, I am not sounding that ‘Islam is the miracle cure’. I actually would say that we do believe that this is true. Although you might not agree with me, when you consider that we believe that the Quran is the Creator’s instruction on how we should live our lives, you won’t be surprised why we believe it to be so. To understand our perspective, consider if you operate a machine according to the manual by the manufacturer then it will work properly rather than if you operate based on guesses. Add to it if this manufacturer does not have typos and does not make mistakes. You would have the perfect guide to operate the equipment.
In Islam, there is no hereditary sin neither are people considered evil by nature. We do also agree with you that the environment has a major impact on forming personalities hence our emphasis on the environment.
Grouping puritans together is worse than using statistics to show that some group of people are more focused on sex. The way Islam deals with sex is much different from Christianity where even sex with your wife is supposed to focus only on procreation. I agree with you that for some the forbidden fruit is the most tempting but again this results in irresponsible action only where there is a lack of personal conscience otherwise we would have a lot of people ‘plucking forbidden fruits’ even in liberal societies like yours as even there you have certain things forbidden. You might say that nothing should be forbidden which is not possible (consider murder, theft, etc.) Our perspective in this regard is that things should be considered lawful or unlawful as designated by the Creator. Problems arise when we make lawful things like marriage difficult to attain which unfortunately is a problem in our societies. I would add that this is not ‘despite Islam’ but due to disregard for Islam in this area.
Regards,
Abu Ahmed,
You said: “The reason that ‘ethnic minorities’ have an over-representation in crime rates does not necessarily mean that crimes committed by the ethnic minorities are higher. It is very probable based on the info that you have given that ethnic minorities have a higher rate of conviction in courts as they cannot speak Danish well and can easily be accused and convicted while natives know their way and can convince the judges to acquit them. Hence ethnic minorities could be over-represented due to this. As you said statistics obscure just as much as they clarify.”
I find this a bit offensive, because you are actually accusing the Danish legal system of being racistic. Besides, the ethnic minorities we are talking about are 2nd generation Danes which means that they are fully capable of speaking Danish and EVERYBODY get free legal representation by somebody who has studied Danish law.
True, statistics obscure the exact extent of over-representation and they do not reveal any causes. But that does not change the fact that ethnic minorities are over-represented.
Regardless of whether Islam is a miracle cure or not that does not change the fact that a large portion of the 1st generation immigrant parents have failed to teach their children morals and respect for society and that they have failed to support the education of their children, so they have to accept the major part of the blame for the situation of their children and the same thing goes for the ethnic Danish parents of criminal or poorly educated children!
You said: “You might say that nothing should be forbidden which is not possible (consider murder, theft, etc.) Our perspective in this regard is that things should be considered lawful or unlawful as designated by the Creator.”
Actually, I would say that nothing should be forbidden, but to me the word “forbidden” may have a different meaning than for you. I believe in personal freedom which means that e.g. the “Danish Code of Jutland” and the “Law of Equal Freedom” form part of the foundation my views are based on – I would almost say these are writings of my ‘religion’. In my opinion, a society must be based on laws that apply to everybody, but those laws must respect that every person has the freedom to do what he/she wants to do as long as that does not infringe the same freedom of somebody else. Therefore, murder, theft etc. should be unlawful as they violate the rights and personal freedom of somebody else.
We agree that there are things that should be unlawful, but we will never agree on that there are things that should be declared lawful or forbidden – especially not by religion. While actions that violate the rights and personal freedom of others must be unlawful, spelling out which things should be lawful or forbidden would be a gross violation of personal freedom.
I believe in MY right to eat pork and look at big tits (as long as I don’t steal the pig or force a woman to show me the goodies), but I also believe in YOUR personal freedom to decide not to eat pork or look at big tits if that is the way you feel. It is none of my business whether you find pork and big tits disgusting, if you find them sinful, or if you think they should be forbidden for YOU. However, if you try to force me to stop indulging in pork and big tits by making it forbidden for ME, then you are violating MY personal freedom.
With my ‘religion’ of personal freedom I am tolerant of your right to believe in Islam if you so desire and I respect your right to live by ‘stricter’ rules of behavior. However, if you condemn my indulgence in pork and big tits then you are intolerant and disrespectful of my ‘religion’, which would prevent us from living peacefully together in respect and harmony.
Your machine analogy is interesting, so to understand my perspective, consider that there had already been people for thousands of years before religions emerged, so the operating instructions had to be produced by somebody who did not design the machine. Based on this, who would be the better qualified to write the manual? The scientists who are experts in reverse engineering and who continue to update the manual as new features are discovered or prophets who guessed what the machine was all about with the knowledge available more than a millennium ago? ;)
You are right, we are seeing things from two sides as you believe that the Quran is the words of God while I believe that God is pure superstition and that the Quran -and all other religious books- are the words of human beings.
But, instead of focusing on what we have of differences, I think it is a better solution to focus on what we have in common. I am sure we both have the same feelings for our friends and family, we both try to live our lives the best we can without violating the rights of others, and, most importantly, we both think that there are some ‘ground rules’ that needs to be followed in order for people to live peacefully together in a society.
It doesn’t really matter whether I think that the concept of your religion that the human race originates from Adam and Eve is a fairy tale or if you believe that the concept of my science that the human race originates from the African continent is conspiracy theory. We both believe that we are all human beings and we should both live up to that concept.
Thomas, I was showing you how statistics cannot be treated as conclusive evidence and not to accuse the Danish system of being racist. I am sorry if you perceived it that way. That ethnic minorities are over-represented could have many reasons and not necessarily that the minorities are actually more prone to commit these crimes.
Also, since you mention that they are 2nd generation Danes, I see Islam as having nothing to do with their crimes. If their parents have failed to teach their children morals and neither the education system has benefited them I agree that the blame pretty much lies with them.
You said, “every person has the freedom to do what he/she wants to do as long as that does not infringe the same freedom of somebody else”. Do you think that if an individual wants to inflict harm on himself like cutting his limbs then should he be allowed to do so under the law as this “does not violate the rights and personal freedom of somebody else”?
Your basis that there were people before religions “emerged” is incorrect as Adam was the first man and the Creator revealed religion to him. Your perspective is based on an assumption which is not true. And prophets did not guess, what they taught men was revealed to them from the Creator. And they did bring enough proof to show that what they taught is from the Creator and not their own thoughts or words. Some people would like to reject this despite all the evidence available.
I agree with you that we should focus on what we have in common and not only stop at that. This common underdstanding can be a stepping stone to furter our mutual understanding and knowledge of things.
It is important that all people respect each other and engage in civil exchange of ideas instead of one side forcing its concept on the other or resorting to violence to enforce their concepts on others. But, if you believe that my religion and my core values are a conspiracy theory then we have a lot of talking to do. :)
I don’t know how I stumbled upon this… honestly. Or why I am even posting something on this board, I don’t even know what or who any of you are, nor want to by what I have just read. I am a young college student going to a university, I randomly was placed in the international dorm and ended up being best friends with two arab young women, a kuwaiti and a saudi. From viewing their experience with arab men, and listening to their life stories I have come to glean that… women, are in fact the same, everywhere. Society differs our personality and beliefs, but at the core we all have the same typical values underneath everything society gives us. So, my point is that women everywhere know that the best apples are at the top of the tree, and they stay there until a boy climbs up. Sure, they can have friends, in fact, a good society is founded in equality. However, whores will be whores, nothing plainer. Prostitution is the world’s oldest occupation, and it needs to be stopped, but, it never will be.
What I found out from my friends experience, and from meeting their arab boyfriends, and guy friends is that the men there treat their women better than women are treated here. I don’t dislike american men, I am American, however, men and boys here expect too much for only a little bit of output. They take you on a date and they expect sex and for you to pay half (or full…), and it is revolting. So, on behalf of arab culture, women may not have as many rights but they are treated with greater respect from my obvservance. And honestly, we all know who controls men, not all rights need to be written down.
This summer marriage seems to be in vogue in the middle east, although it is not yet here in Nigeria. But it is quiet a shameful thing to be practiced by a muslim, who believes in all the dos and don’ts in Islam, and also on the day of ressurection.I do believe a man can marry a woman and make the modern woman he would want her to be and vice versa. A marriage is a very easy and happy union between a man and a woman,if only they will abide by all its islamic rule and stay with each other.Then they will discover that the slimy, messy, sinful illegitimate intercourse they indulge in, is nothing but a sweet thing which will be a source of everlasting bliss and satisfaction to both of them.Money and cars will be the aftermath of it all.
I hope and pray that the autourities should take this catastrophy into their punishable hands.Meanwhile before they do, husbands and wives keep your privacies for yourselves only, and as for singles stay away from it.
well i really dont get what the point of the whole discussion is. You people are debating out of concern as if everything else is alright in the holy land. I think it is a first step towrds treating women as humans and atleast giving them some sexual rights. It better to have a few nights spent with a lover of your choice then to be enslaved to someone. MOreover the practice of MUTA has been in practice by shias for 1400 years. And the have no guilt about it. Come on people .. chill…We all know tah we in Muslim world have more horrendous skeltons in our clostes then this issue..
well i really dont get what the point of the whole discussion is. You people are debating out of concern as if everything else is alright in the holy land. I think it is a first step towrds treating women as humans and atleast giving them some rights. It better to have a few nights spent with a lover of your choice then to be enslaved to someone. MOreover the practice of MUTA has been in practice by shias for 1400 years. And the have no guilt about it. Come on people .. chill…We all know tah we in Muslim world have more horrendous skeltons in our clostes then this issue..
Hello, I recently fell upon this site and i found this topic to be interesting. I am Canadian, of Irish-protestant and -catholic descent. I was curious why the article stipulates that the woman should be of pale complexion. is this a custom/trend/??? in Saudi Arabia?
Also, if any of you live in the Arab Middle-East(im sorry thats how we know it) what do you think of Canada and its actions in congruence with the US?
thank you for your time
peace
brendan ryan
This kind of marriages are not allowed in Islam unless some people are putting them like a sub-religion..Islam has never and will never accept to be used for personal gains..In this case, having sex..I think the situation is worse in Saudi and it’s giving Islam a very bad picture..some people conspire to think that anything Saudi does..is Islam..which is wrong..
The Mesyar is a crime against women. As a sunni muslim I denounce the professional religious sunni establishment and all its backward muftis. What a scandal. In the 21st century when women are rising to positions of influence around the world, our professional sunnis are stripping away their rights. I say throw the scum out with the trash or flush them down the toilet. As of today, I make my own rule according to my conseince and not according to some perverted caveman who thinks he has an ADSL connection to Allah.
this is so sad, It is a wrong practice but at the same time i will not blame any of them, due to the fact that the law makers havnt sat down to reevaluate these laws and make them suitable to this time, then in the past they worked pretty well, at least then women had nothing to do other than cook, and become baby factories. now they are in school, get degrees and even take on men jobs so and some of these responsibilities would require them to travel, and live more complex lives than they could so if u trap them they would only find a way around that to get things sorted so if i would blame any body is saudi stupid laws..
nevertheless i am not saying what those ppl are doing are right.
i can bet u in teh next 10 years things will only get worse. and a typical woman would have married more than once.
Meysaf (Summer Holiday Marriage) – a vague news- increditable news.. may be a remour. Its very clear saudi government never permits such illegal marriages. Its my great surprise, why all above commentators not taking any strain to check whether this news is creditable ?? But without scrutinizing its creditablity….they put their pen down to write tons of messages.. each hurting each other, lastly left nothing but like building a castle on the air. I have read all above comments some embrace islam…..some hate islam……some like saudi….some hate U.S. ..some say sharia…but …but none talk about the news, where its coming from? who spread this news?? whats the creditablity of that news paper? Whether such practice actually be in saudia?….. no evidence…no proof ….this news is like a mirrage…… It fills your mouths always chewing something useless. You all better to do something useful rather than fighting like monkeys for sharing garland.
i havent read all d comments
wives for mesyaf holliday is not only in saudi but also outside. here arabian comes every summmer holiday (i dont know when is summer holliday in saudi but here usually they come during july-august) and married local women with mahar(mean money money money) then divorce them when they go back to saudi.
Here mesyaf holliday marriage (or we call it mut’ah marriage) is forbidden by ulama. How ever there is some village here has that kind of marriage- the name is harvest marriage. So they get married during harvest season and divorce after the harvest season over. But its a traditional one not supporting by religion.
Ppl will do sin what ever rules God makes, the syeikh sudnt give such fatwa just to reduce the number of sinner. Yaa syeikh, we re not at war!! (like the original mut’ah marraige first time happens) Wallahu’alam
if u r asking is it the man or woman to blame, then its both. Cuz you can not clap with 2 hands. so its both their fault. and the society taht allows them to do so.
Becuz its haram here(sorry i cant say my country name i dont want more ppl to come and doing mut’ah here), there some event when police capture the arabian (not only saudian) who were doing mut’ah marraige and deport them back to their countries. And not only arabian. NOTE THIS! NOT ONLY ARABIAN DOING THE MUT’AH MARRIAGE, EVEN OTHER COUNTRY AND OTHER RELIGION ARE DOING IT AS WELL. but not many cases like that. usually they just sleep together and changing partners secretly. (living together without proper marriage is consider forbiden by society. so if the society report u to authority, they may catch you. to prevent that, they do mut’ah marriage)
What i heard that mahar in saudi is expensive so many men cant afford to have wife cuz they cant afford to pay mahar ((how sad!!!! dou know the best mahar in islam??? Even some of us in this country-who live not by Islamic government many times ask just ‘tools for praying (sajadah and hijab)’ or ‘reading surah alikhlash 3x’ as mahar!!!)) thats why single saudian comes here and doing mut’ah here (with less mahar then saudis mahar) cuz they cant afford wife in saudi????
“On the other hand, it’s not only businessmen who are looking for wives. Also Saudi Businesswomen go looking for a husband to become “Mehrem” for her during her travel abroad”
Excuse me, why dont they bring their spouse??? If they dont have one then marry one properly!!! If still cant then do fasting!!! Are you moslem or not??
What i know is when u marry someone you have to do niah that you will do what it takes to keep it last. Its the GHOOLIZAL… (i forgot what the quran word for it) VERY HARD VOW (the vow of bani israil (jew) to God, the vow of the first moslems (assabiqunal awwaluun??) to God, and the vow of marriage) So u dont play with marriage.
Yaa syeikh, is it the time when some ppl say sometin halal is haram and sometin haram is halal like what Rasulullah SAW said?
Wallahu’alam.
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