What i heard that mahar in saudi is expensive so many men cant afford to have wife cuz they cant afford to pay mahar ((how sad!!!! dou know the best mahar in islam??? Even some of us in this country-who live not by Islamic government many times ask just ‘tools for praying (sajadah and hijab)’ or ‘reading surah alikhlash 3x’ as mahar!!!)) thats why single saudian comes here and doing mut’ah here (with less mahar then saudis mahar) cuz they cant afford wife in saudi????
“On the other hand, it’s not only businessmen who are looking for wives. Also Saudi Businesswomen go looking for a husband to become “Mehrem” for her during her travel abroad”
Excuse me, why dont they bring their spouse??? If they dont have one then marry one properly!!! If still cant then do fasting!!! Are you moslem or not??

What i know is when u marry someone you have to do niah that you will do what it takes to keep it last. Its the GHOOLIZAL… (i forgot what the quran word for it) VERY HARD VOW (the vow of bani israil (jew) to God, the vow of the first moslems (assabiqunal awwaluun??) to God, and the vow of marriage) So u dont play with marriage.

Yaa syeikh, is it the time when some ppl say sometin halal is haram and sometin haram is halal like what Rasulullah SAW said?
Wallahu’alam.

i can bet u in teh next 10 years things will only get worse. and a typical woman would have married more than once.

Also, if any of you live in the Arab Middle-East(im sorry thats how we know it) what do you think of Canada and its actions in congruence with the US?

thank you for your time

peace
brendan ryan

I hope and pray that the autourities should take this catastrophy into their punishable hands.Meanwhile before they do, husbands and wives keep your privacies for yourselves only, and as for singles stay away from it.

Also, since you mention that they are 2nd generation Danes, I see Islam as having nothing to do with their crimes. If their parents have failed to teach their children morals and neither the education system has benefited them I agree that the blame pretty much lies with them.

You said, “every person has the freedom to do what he/she wants to do as long as that does not infringe the same freedom of somebody else”. Do you think that if an individual wants to inflict harm on himself like cutting his limbs then should he be allowed to do so under the law as this “does not violate the rights and personal freedom of somebody else”?

Your basis that there were people before religions “emerged” is incorrect as Adam was the first man and the Creator revealed religion to him. Your perspective is based on an assumption which is not true. And prophets did not guess, what they taught men was revealed to them from the Creator. And they did bring enough proof to show that what they taught is from the Creator and not their own thoughts or words. Some people would like to reject this despite all the evidence available.

I agree with you that we should focus on what we have in common and not only stop at that. This common underdstanding can be a stepping stone to furter our mutual understanding and knowledge of things.

It is important that all people respect each other and engage in civil exchange of ideas instead of one side forcing its concept on the other or resorting to violence to enforce their concepts on others. But, if you believe that my religion and my core values are a conspiracy theory then we have a lot of talking to do. :)

You said: “The reason that ‘ethnic minorities’ have an over-representation in crime rates does not necessarily mean that crimes committed by the ethnic minorities are higher. It is very probable based on the info that you have given that ethnic minorities have a higher rate of conviction in courts as they cannot speak Danish well and can easily be accused and convicted while natives know their way and can convince the judges to acquit them. Hence ethnic minorities could be over-represented due to this. As you said statistics obscure just as much as they clarify.”

I find this a bit offensive, because you are actually accusing the Danish legal system of being racistic. Besides, the ethnic minorities we are talking about are 2nd generation Danes which means that they are fully capable of speaking Danish and EVERYBODY get free legal representation by somebody who has studied Danish law.

True, statistics obscure the exact extent of over-representation and they do not reveal any causes. But that does not change the fact that ethnic minorities are over-represented.

Regardless of whether Islam is a miracle cure or not that does not change the fact that a large portion of the 1st generation immigrant parents have failed to teach their children morals and respect for society and that they have failed to support the education of their children, so they have to accept the major part of the blame for the situation of their children and the same thing goes for the ethnic Danish parents of criminal or poorly educated children!

You said: “You might say that nothing should be forbidden which is not possible (consider murder, theft, etc.) Our perspective in this regard is that things should be considered lawful or unlawful as designated by the Creator.”

Actually, I would say that nothing should be forbidden, but to me the word “forbidden” may have a different meaning than for you. I believe in personal freedom which means that e.g. the “Danish Code of Jutland” and the “Law of Equal Freedom” form part of the foundation my views are based on – I would almost say these are writings of my ‘religion’. In my opinion, a society must be based on laws that apply to everybody, but those laws must respect that every person has the freedom to do what he/she wants to do as long as that does not infringe the same freedom of somebody else. Therefore, murder, theft etc. should be unlawful as they violate the rights and personal freedom of somebody else.

We agree that there are things that should be unlawful, but we will never agree on that there are things that should be declared lawful or forbidden – especially not by religion. While actions that violate the rights and personal freedom of others must be unlawful, spelling out which things should be lawful or forbidden would be a gross violation of personal freedom.

I believe in MY right to eat pork and look at big tits (as long as I don’t steal the pig or force a woman to show me the goodies), but I also believe in YOUR personal freedom to decide not to eat pork or look at big tits if that is the way you feel. It is none of my business whether you find pork and big tits disgusting, if you find them sinful, or if you think they should be forbidden for YOU. However, if you try to force me to stop indulging in pork and big tits by making it forbidden for ME, then you are violating MY personal freedom.

With my ‘religion’ of personal freedom I am tolerant of your right to believe in Islam if you so desire and I respect your right to live by ‘stricter’ rules of behavior. However, if you condemn my indulgence in pork and big tits then you are intolerant and disrespectful of my ‘religion’, which would prevent us from living peacefully together in respect and harmony.

Your machine analogy is interesting, so to understand my perspective, consider that there had already been people for thousands of years before religions emerged, so the operating instructions had to be produced by somebody who did not design the machine. Based on this, who would be the better qualified to write the manual? The scientists who are experts in reverse engineering and who continue to update the manual as new features are discovered or prophets who guessed what the machine was all about with the knowledge available more than a millennium ago? ;)

You are right, we are seeing things from two sides as you believe that the Quran is the words of God while I believe that God is pure superstition and that the Quran -and all other religious books- are the words of human beings.

But, instead of focusing on what we have of differences, I think it is a better solution to focus on what we have in common. I am sure we both have the same feelings for our friends and family, we both try to live our lives the best we can without violating the rights of others, and, most importantly, we both think that there are some ‘ground rules’ that needs to be followed in order for people to live peacefully together in a society.

It doesn’t really matter whether I think that the concept of your religion that the human race originates from Adam and Eve is a fairy tale or if you believe that the concept of my science that the human race originates from the African continent is conspiracy theory. We both believe that we are all human beings and we should both live up to that concept.

There is no sin attached with divorce in Islam. There is sin on the man if he harms his wife or treats her in violation of Islamic teachings in the divorce process. But there is no sin attached to divorce itself even though it is discouraged.

Regarding the rules prescribed in the Quran, somebody who has not learnt about it fully might see it as sexist or repressive. But most people’s opinion regarding this is based on biased sources and not the direct study of the rules themselves. As these rules are based on the premise that I mentioned earlier, i.e. the Creator knows what is better for his creation, it is not logically possible for them to be bad as they do not have the shortcomings that man-made laws have. There is a difference between a society having flaws/crimes and the correctness of the laws. These flaws/crimes are not the result of these laws but actually due to people not following them.

The rape cases in Copenhagen that you mention are not ‘despite Islam’. Actually, it is due to these people disregarding Islamic teachings otherwise they will not have made their way into these statistics.

The reason that ‘ethnic minorities’ have an over-representation in crime rates does not necessarily mean that crimes committed by the ethnic minorities are higher. It is very probable based on the info that you have given that ethnic minorities have a higher rate of conviction in courts as they cannot speak Danish well and can easily be accused and convicted while natives know their way and can convince the judges to acquit them. Hence ethnic minorities could be over-represented due to this. As you said statistics obscure just as much as they clarify.

Also, I would be surprised if Imams there consider it ok to rape women considered ‘dirty’. There is no way that any person with any knowledge of Islam can ‘preach’ such things. Also, it can never be said that Islam says that there is “nothing wrong in cheating infidels”. The Quran says: “and never let hatred of any-one lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do.” (5:8)

Thomas, I am not sounding that ‘Islam is the miracle cure’. I actually would say that we do believe that this is true. Although you might not agree with me, when you consider that we believe that the Quran is the Creator’s instruction on how we should live our lives, you won’t be surprised why we believe it to be so. To understand our perspective, consider if you operate a machine according to the manual by the manufacturer then it will work properly rather than if you operate based on guesses. Add to it if this manufacturer does not have typos and does not make mistakes. You would have the perfect guide to operate the equipment.

In Islam, there is no hereditary sin neither are people considered evil by nature. We do also agree with you that the environment has a major impact on forming personalities hence our emphasis on the environment.

Grouping puritans together is worse than using statistics to show that some group of people are more focused on sex. The way Islam deals with sex is much different from Christianity where even sex with your wife is supposed to focus only on procreation. I agree with you that for some the forbidden fruit is the most tempting but again this results in irresponsible action only where there is a lack of personal conscience otherwise we would have a lot of people ‘plucking forbidden fruits’ even in liberal societies like yours as even there you have certain things forbidden. You might say that nothing should be forbidden which is not possible (consider murder, theft, etc.) Our perspective in this regard is that things should be considered lawful or unlawful as designated by the Creator. Problems arise when we make lawful things like marriage difficult to attain which unfortunately is a problem in our societies. I would add that this is not ‘despite Islam’ but due to disregard for Islam in this area.

Regards,

It may be that Islam does not forbid divorce, but do you deny that there is more of a stigma of sin or disgrace around divorces in Muslim countries? Very often there is a large difference between theory and practice

The Koran prescribes several rules or principles regarding divorce and I admit that I see some of them as very socially responsible (and I would not mind if they influenced the national laws I live under), but I also see some of the rules as sexist and repressive. I don’t want to go into a Koran debate, just point out that like most other law collections it is not completely good nor is it completely bad! Even though, for you and other Muslims, the Koran lays down the law and even though you firmly believe in it, that does not mean that you are living in a society without flaws and with no crimes.

One of the oldest principles of law that the Danish society is built on is the “Danish Code of Jutland” which was given under King Valdemar II Sejr in 1241. It says (my translation with emphasis on meaning rather than grammar):

“With law shall the country be built, but if everybody were content with their own doing and let others enjoy the same right, then no law would be necessary. But no law is better to follow than that of the truth, but where there is doubt about the truth, there the law shall guide the truth.”

Actually, King Valdemar may very well be the first to write down the principle of liberalism way before “The National Gain” (1765) by Anders Chydenius and “The Wealth of Nations” (1776) by Adam Smith!

Danes firmly believe in the rule of law, but that does not mean that there are no criminals in Denmark or that Danish society has no flaws.

Does it really matter whether you believe that Islam is a higher wisdom or whether I believe that democratic laws is a higher wisdom? Despite these wisdoms, crime is a fact in every society. These wisdoms may contain the definitions of wrong-doings, but they are clearly not capable of fully preventing them!

Despite Islam and despite Danish law, between 20% and 60% of all rape cases in Copenhagen (depending on who juggles the numbers) are supposed to involve Muslim men and something in the area of 75% of gang-rapes in Copenhagen are committed by Muslim men. Though these statistics have a relatively low margin of error, the problem is that Copenhagen is made up of a lot of towns that have melted together, so some of the mathemagicians have included/excluded areas to make sure the numbers fit their agenda – that’s the reason for the 40% spread.

However, across all categories of crimes 10% (official number from the Danish Police) are committed by ethnic minorities who make up only 3% of the population, so overall it is ‘only’ an over-representation of 7%.

I don’t think that Islam is to blame for the higher rate of Muslim rapes in Copenhagen; I have a strong suspicion that the extremist Imams who are preaching that Muslim girls with scarves are pure while Danish women with skirts are dirty whores are more to blame than Islam. It is the same Imam characters who interpret that the Koran says that there is nothing wrong in cheating infidels as long as Muslims are treated honestly.

You said: “The prime contributor in my opinion is the lack of personal conscience and general disregard of modesty.”

To me that is a little bit too vague and not operational as it sounds a bit like ‘Islam is the miracle cure’ and that there is no other solution than religion. This is not to say that your concept does not play a contributing role, but I don’t think it is the root cause and that it is a bit more complicated than that.

Danes are not very religious and people will rather look for a scientific answer than a religious one. Therefore we do not believe in hereditary sin or that people are unexplainable evil by nature. This is the age old discussion about heritage vs. environment. We believe the environment has the largest impact on forming personality traits!

While some of the radical Islam arguments may play a role in the higher crime rate, I think that it is the Danish society and the parents that have to carry the major part of the blame. On average the unemployment rate for ethnic minorities (primarily 2nd generation Danish Muslims) is twice as high as the unemployment rate in general, but there are some areas where unemployment among young Muslims is around 40%!

Sure, there are cases of discrimination against Muslims, but that cannot explain why the number is that high. There is plenty of research to prove that the more parents involve themselves in the education of their children the better chances they have on the job market. This is why both the Danish society and especially the immigrant parents have to take their part of the blame, because they have both failed a large part of the 2nd generation Danish Muslims.

For many years the Danish integration policies have been pretty much laissez-fare (give them a job and money and let them integrate themselves). Danish language classes (and Turkish and Arab for their children) were/are offered free of charge, but there were no requirements demanding that immigrants should learn Danish or take a crash course in Danish culture. The result was that a lot of Muslim women (mothers of the 2nd generation) could live completely shielded from Danish society and it was rather the rule than the exception that an immigrant Turkish woman would not be able to speak Danish and that she had no clue about the country she was living in – even after more than 20 years in Denmark.

But regardless of Danish integration policies, the immigrants themselves also have responsibility to integrate in their new society. The sad truth is that most often the husband would speak Danish and meet Danes through his job while the wife would remain just as Turkish as the day she arrived, because she would only be socializing with other Turkish women. All the years I went to primary school, the parents of our 2nd generation class mates NEVER showed up at parents meetings, parent consultations or for extracurricular activities. And, a mother that does not speak Danish is clearly not capable of helping her child doing homework.

Statistics show that a majority of those 2nd generation Muslim Danes who have jobs – everything from carpenters to doctors – grew up with parents that both learned Danish and who involved themselves in the education of their children. In Denmark, schooling is free up until university where minor fees for books etc. have to be paid, so none of the immigrants can come and say that Danish society never gave their kids a chance to get a good education!

That is why I let the 1st generation immigrants (the parents) carry the major part of the blame and Danish society in general only the smaller part. I am myself an immigrant in Hungary and I can guarantee you that I am not sitting on my ass and waiting for Hungarians to show up at my door to integrate me!

I know you do not agree that puritans are more focused on sex, but my experience with Americans is that they have an almost unhealthy infatuation with sex and I contribute that to the lack of information and stigmatizing the subject. One example I can give you is the huge increase in sales of Sports Illustrated when they come out with their annual Swimsuit Edition; we are talking something like three-four times the normal number of copies sold. Don’t tell me that it is because a large group of US American men are really interested in swimwear fashion :) Another example is provided by Sabbah in http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/05/12/who-is-searching-for-sex/

I think it is a natural thing that if something is forbidden or scarce, that makes it the more interesting (with limitations of course). My personal experience is that I find girls with dark/black hair and brown eyes very beautiful while most Hungarian men are more intrigued with blonde girls. Hungary is heaven for me in this respect, because I am living with the most wonderful woman (also fitting my appearance preferences) and there is still so much beauty to appreciate around me. I grew up with an abundance of blonde chicks, so I find them extremely boring when we talk about looks.