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WE'RE NOT TERRORISTS. ARAB (MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS, et al) ARE NOT TERRORISTS. MUSLIMS (ARAB AND NON-ARAB) ARE NOT TERRORISTS.
How far do we, Arab/Muslims, have to go in flaunting our moderation? Would posting condolences, apologies and condemn banners solve the problem? But apologizing for what? For something we haven't done? Is it a double act of auto-stigmatization and auto-justification?
Most of Arabs and Muslims have publicly condemned Bin Laden for his atrocities all the time. And those who did not either doesn't feel like that they should do because they have nothing to do with it, or a small minority show support to Bin Laden and similar terrorists under the name of Islam. But does this mean that the world then should hold us Arab and Muslims responsible?
One of the many short comings which have arisen in the West is judging Arab and Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Arab and Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behavior is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done – judge a religion by the conduct of minority its people – then we too could say that all Christianity is about, is child molesting and homosexuality (by using the many cases of child abuse and homosexuality by priests), whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques (by using the incident of the destruction of the Babri mosque in Ayodya, India in December 1992 by Hindu zealots).
Generalizing in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Arab and Islam. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic. Nor they are of Arab culture and should not be thought of as Arab.
Again, as with the conspiracy theories which urgently needed to see 9/11 as the work of Mossad, and the utilitarian justification of the vanguard's suspension of the ethical, the radical Islamists are an expression of the very Westernizing alienation they profess to defy. In a sense, it is as Meddeb reminds us: "Who are those who died while spreading death in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania? [...] They are the sons of our times, the pure products of the Americanization of the world." (Abdelwahab Meddeb, Islam and its discontents – London, 2003)
In such a world of pseudo-religious reaction against the postmodern erosion of identity, it follows that if you are not "with us," you are with the devil.
Hello world! Jihad is not terrorism. Arabs are not terrorists.
Jihadist! Isn't this is the word the western media is using every time a terrorism act takes place? But wait. Do you know what the meaning of the word is? Do you know what the origin of the word is?
In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word "jihad" means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. In this sense, a student struggles and strives to get an education and pass course work; an employee strives to fulfill his/her job and maintain good relations with his/her employer; a politician strives to maintain or increase his popularity with his constituents and so on. The term strives or struggle may be used for/by Muslims as well as non-Muslims; for example, Allah, says in the Qur'an:
"We have enjoined on people kindness to parents; but if they strive (Jahadaka) to make you ascribe partners with Me that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not…" (The Holy Qur'an, 29:8; also see 31:15)
In the above two verses of the Qur'an, it is non-Muslim parents who strive (jahadaka) to convert their Muslim child back to their religion. In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is unholy to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable.
If we translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "harbun muqaddasa," or for "the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasa." We challenge any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Unfortunately, some Muslim writers and translators of the Qur'an, the Hadith and other Islamic literature translate the term "jihad" as "holy war," due to the influence of centuries-old Western propaganda.
This could be a reflection of the Christian use of the term "Holy War" to refer to the Crusades of a thousand years ago. However, the Arabic words for "war" are "harb" or "qital," which are found in the Qur'an and Hadith.
It is far from desirable to simply quote, as an apparent show of understanding, scriptural support for this or that personal opinion we may have about a particular subject. Neither is it enough to use Qur'anic or Prophetic texts without adequate knowledge of the human situation and cultural milieu in which they were revealed and first applied, as well as the precedence of some verses over others based on order of revelation or abrogation.
In other words, context and circumstance of Qur'anic revelation and Hadith are crucial in coming to terms with Jihad. It is an error to judge Islam and Muslims in the light of the kind of "Jihad" that has fallen victim to ideological tendencies. The critic also has to be wary of the interpretation of "Jihad" which is projected, and sometimes imposed, by the selective "religious reformism" so rampant today. They ignore central aspects of Islam's intellectual heritage, selectively repress important figures and disregard Islam's impeccable history of adherence to the standards of law and justice in affairs of state.
On the other hand, traditional Muslim Sunnis intuit that al-Qaida is a Western invention, but one which cannot be defeated in a battleground where the logic is Western. This was one of the messages that emerged from the 2003 summit meeting of eight hundred Muslim scholars at Putrajaya – Malaysia. Al-Qaida is inauthentic: "it rejects the classical canons of Islamic law and theology, and issues fatwas that are neither formally nor in their habit of mind deducible from medieval exegesis."
Yet despite the clear stand taken against the terrorists by "Arab World" and the "Muslim World", the terrorists are still labeled by the media as "Islamic". It seems that the Muslims cannot win. Even if they condemn terrorism in no uncertain terms, still acts of terrorism are attributed to Arab and Islam.
The temptation is strong for Arab's and Muslims to give up and say: "Even if we condemn terrorism, we are still labeled as terrorists. We might as well not condemn it at all." But to do this would be to fall into the media's trap. The media must now be allowed to malign Arab and Islam by giving the impression that the religion condones senseless violence and cruelty against innocent civilians. However much the media seek to present Arab and Islam in this distorted way, the Arabs and Muslims must strive to present the true picture.
Last but not least, quoting Mark Glenn – Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization, 18 April 2003:
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but of the entire Western world in general.
[...]
What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as well.
As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on. Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention "lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.
[...]
To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control. They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society (read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played, meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.
One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No, rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."
The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes, and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion, culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media, academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the Islamic/Arabic World.
By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a "Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.
If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."
{ 252 } Comments
Sabbah, this was an excellent post. I do not agree with much of what you write, but I have tremendous respect for your skill as a writer and a blogger. I will take a shot at writing a serious response to your post, and I hope you consider responding seriously. No promises as to timing, though — I'm at the end of a long day.
TigerHawk, yes you never agreed, but your opinion is always respected. Please feel free to write a response, and I will respond seriously. No promises as to timing :-)
We are not terrorists, and we do not have a strangle hold on violence. Bombs in Trinidad, not a Muslim to be seen, bombs in Spain, not a Muslim to be seen, bombs in Nepal, not a Muslim to be seen.
Dear Haitham, this is a well written post and I agree with many of your points. But I think that you made a mistake that is very common when arguing an issue that is adversarial between two "camps"; you tried to defend your side as being mostly without fault, while presenting the other side as almost completely at fault. An argued position is much more powerful when it acknowledges its own side's shortcomings, while unmasking the excesses of the other side's "attack" and its blind defense of its own imperfect positions.
In that spirit, let me make two points (not to negate the positive aspects that you discussed, but to give a more complete, realistic, and therefore defendable, view):
1) Although many in the Arab/Muslim world do not accept the terror that is being done in their name (and it is being done in their name), there are mainstream groups like the Muslim Brotherhood being sympathetic/apologetic towards those groups, while avoiding the "uncomfortable" position of outright support. Not long after the 9/11 attacks, I read in "Al-Sabeel", the mouthpiece newspaper of the Jordanian Muslim Brothers, an analysis of the Islamic validity of those attacks. The conclusion was essentially: what they did was not really good, BUT "2ijtahado wa a562o, falahom 2jr (as opposed to 2 ajr if they had 2ijtahado wa a9abo)". Do you accept this as a condemnation of the terrorists or a denunciating of them as not truly Muslim?!! I think you'll agree that the Muslim Brotherhood represents a large segment of the society, and is widely recognized as an authority on Orthodox Islam. If the Muslim Brotherhood declares Bin Laden and his buddies as "5awarej 3an al-Islam", then I'll shut up and agree with you 100%!
2) I agree that in many of the "moral" aspects of social life, the Arab world has better norms than the West; but there are many areas in which the West is better positioned than the Arab world (not perfect, but better): Freedom of speech; accountable governments (I know the "imperfection" arguments, but just think Qaddafi!!); support and encouragement for research and free thought; etc.
This is not an attack against MY nation, but we will never move forward if we do not see our faults.
Ziad, I agree with the examples you mentioned in your second point. However since we are not talking about moral of east/west, maybe I'll devote another post for it later to shed more light on this subject.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, I also agree with you that they are probably one of the strongest parties in the Arab world, however rumors have swirled for years that the CIA may have supported the Brotherhood during the 1950s and 1960s. The allegations of an alliance have been widely reported, but not irrefutably documented. But that takes me back to Meddeb quote: "Who are those who died while spreading death in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania? [...] They are the sons of our times, the pure products of the Americanization of the world."
In other words, they are products of the injustice, greed, poverty and wars all over the past decades, lead by the west. On the other hand, yes they play some significant role in the Arab world, but do they represent Islam and Arab? At least for me, as an Arabian Muslim, I say NO. They don't represent me, they don't represent 300 million Arab and more importantly they don't represent the 1.7 Billion Muslim. Do they?!
Good points Haitham. Western powers often supported radical religious groups as a counter balance to secular movements they did not like. A good example is the early support given to Hamas by Israel, thought to be a good idea at the time because it wasnt seen as a great of a threat as the PLO. Israel wanted to support a religious group in the hopes that it would diminish support for the secular PLO. Big mistake for Israel huh?
The US support the secular Saddam against religious Iran. I wouldnt find it a far stretch to think that the US support the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as a counterweight to the secular movement of Egypt at the time.
Sure, it's probobly true that the CIA supported the Brotherhood against unfriendly secular regimes in the Middle East and it is true that America supported Saddam against Iran but I find it a far stretch to suggest that the Brotherhood would not have thrived without American support. Their ideology was an appealing alternative to the failed modernization and secularization found in Egypt, especially after Nasserism was discredited after the ’67 war. I could see how the writings of Hassan al Banna and later Sayyid Qutb would be appealing to frustrated youth in Egypt given the poverty and alienation due to urbanization and failed modernization. As for Saddam, his regime was at the height of its power in 1980 and I don’t think a few American helicopters or whatever my country gave him was the sole reason he hung on to power so long. My point is the ideology of the Brotherhood and Saddam regime would have thrived no matter the US support.
You write that the 9/11 attacks or radicalism coming from the middle east are produced from the Americanization of the world, “In other words, they are products of the injustice, greed, poverty and wars all over the past decades, lead by the west.” I would have to ask then why isn’t there terrorism coming from Latin America where America’s influence and reach has been just as deep as in the Middle East. There is plenty of poverty and injustice to go around but you don’t see groups of Mexican or Haitian terrorists blowing themselves up in New York or London. As Ziad said above the recent terrorist attacks ARE being done in the name of Islam, regardless if they represent the true Islam. The fact is even though these radicals are a small minority they believe they are the true Muslims, they believe they are the Muslim vanguard like Muhammad and his Companions clearing away the idolatry our time, manly secular government (the rule of man over man, instead of god over man) and western materialism. These people have a coherent, thought out ideology (Qutb’s Milestones for example). I like you believe the far majority of Muslims, 99.9 percent at least, abhor acts of terrorism and the killing of innocent, but the fact is these radicals come from your society, act in your name, and are products of a radical ideology that has twisted Islam. Although I think western colonialism and imperialism had terrible effects on the Middle East being felt to this day, I don’t buy the fact that these radicals were spawned only because of that injustice.
One more thing, I think you stereotype the West when you write that only the “Old World” values the family unit. I grew up in the US with two parents who are still married, and I value my family and hope to have my own someday. I think marriage is an important social institution and that the divorce rate in the US is way too high. Although I would agree that there is a decline in these attitudes, if you traveled around parts of the United States you might be surprised at how traditional some folks are. Unfortunately most people in the Middle East only see the bad things of American culture, the movies, TV, music videos, and I don’t blame them for thinking my country is in moral decline after only viewing that. After living in Jordan I got to see American culture as an outsider and I wasn’t impressed.
You cannot compare Central and South America with the Middle East or Islam. The histories, whilst they share common links of innjustice, are not the same.
As I have always maintained, if these Central and South American people's had a history of martyrdom like there is in Islam and the Middle East, half of the US would already be flattened.
That's exactly my point, there is something within Arab/Muslim society (you call it a "history of martydom" in Islam) that also fosters this. To blame Al Qaeda soley on the west's injustice is a fallacy.
I agree with many of the points Ziad raised. I wrote my views on this issue on my blog a few day ago – see: They Do Not Need To Win. So as not to repeat myself, drop by when u can.
http://menademocrats.blogspot.com/
Following is a reply to an article similar to urs I wrote in a leading Gulf news paper KT.
WITH reference to your article ‘Why link terror to religion’ (KT, July 12), I agree with your comments about the misconception. But then again, I feel Muslim clerics and leaders should strongly condemn the terrorists with no buts.
These only portray them in such a way that the Muslim Ummah have a soft corner for the terrorist actions as a reaction. I think we should distance from the terrorist completely and no justification for terrorist actions shall be accepted or given credence.
Moreover, as fatwas are issued against those who desecrate the religion of Islam and teachings, they should also be issued against these terrorists who, as you rightly say, do not belong to our religion. They quote scriptures for their actions and the clerics should strongly come out against this.
The problem here is because they quote the scriptures for their actions which is misconstrued as the belief and faith of the people who belong to Islam by others.
Hence, the term ‘Islamic terrorist’ I suppose, whereas other terrorists whom you mention in your article never quoted the scriptures. We also have to look into ourselves and correct the wrongs. It’s time all are treated as equals with no discrimination.
It is time for introspection, but at the same time, we do not agree with the western media and the hype they create. I feel Islam is the best religion with the worst followers. Let us be muslims once again.
zaratul, as for the fatwas, all what it takes to find fatwa is to google for 'fatwa against terrorism' and you will find plenty of these. I'm not going to link to any here because there are many and they mean nothing to me, as I believe all these were issued on political backgrounds, or they are targeted to the Muslim public which in majority condemns terrorists right from beginning. The real target for these fatwas does not listen to such fatwas or care who says what.
My point is, terrorists have no religion, and in fact they are from all backgrounds and religions. Not only from Islam.
Jawad, I read that report and the survey result. My opinion is that report is biased from the beginning. Why? Because it impose and repeats a lie the media created, which is "Islamic terrorism."
There is nothing called "Islamic terrorism", that's what I'm saying here. Otherwise, I would call what is happening in Palestine as "Jewish terrorism." In fact why not call it as such? Ask any western if there is something called "Jewish terrorism." They will tell you NO. Either the answer will be it is a "state terrorism" or they will deny the act of terrorism by Jewish. Why? Apart from the fact of who controls the media… can you name a nation/race/religion as terrorists if a group of people belonging to that nation… is conducting a terror acts?
Jews/Israelis… No. Muslims/Arab… Yes, this will be acceptable by the west and the media.
Haitham:
I respect your opinion on this. But it is not so much the rest of the world that gave the Al Qaeda-type terrorism the label "Islamic Terrorism", it is the perpetrators of those acts that did. And that's exactly my point, we, the Muslims, let them take owbership of Muslim Advocacy because we did not move agressively to deny them the space within which they are launching their hatred. They are committing acts of terrorism in the Name of Islam. It is in all their statments. They use Islamic jurisprudence to issue "religious fatwas" to sanction terrorism. Yet, we, Muslims around the world, sit around in neighberhood cafes sipping on Lattes not minding the acts of these killers – By default, allowing them to speak in our name and that of our religion. So, what do you expect the West to do?? They will call it by what they are told it is by the extremists of Al Qaeda and other groups like them – "Islamic Terrorism". The burden of proof is on us, Haitham, not on the West. And we need to wake up and crush these cockroaches who are defiling our societies, our civilization, and our religion. Nobody else can do it – we are the only ones who can save our religion – the West can not do it for us, nor do they want to.
By the way, in my earlier comment, I was referencing another post on my blog entitled: "They do not need to win" and not the Pew Research survey.
With my respect to all the comments here (and yet to come) and their opinions. Just one question…
Why do these terrorists target USA, Spain and lately UK? Why not China? Why not Latin Americans? Why not South Africa? Why?
Anyone?
Talking about Muslim or Arab terrorism without linking it with sufferings inflicted on Palestinians, or humilation caused by unlimited American support to Israel, will never end it. We cannot deny that a marginal proportion of Arabs and Muslims continue to support bin Laden and what he stands for. But, if Palestinians were given back their rights and if America adopts an even handed policy in the Middle East and stop keeping dictatorships alive in the region, believe you me "terrorism will cease to have support in this part of the world"
WORDS fail you at times like these. Yet the London outrage is one of those rare defining situations when you have to decide where you stand and what you stand for.
The Muslims around the world have to denounce the London strikes in strongest terms for the simple reason the needle of suspicion is pointed yet again at extremists amongst them. It’s not as if the Islamic world has failed to respond to the outrage. Thankfully, it has. In fact, unlike its stunned silence or at best incoherent response to 9/11, the response to London attacks from within the Muslim world has been fast and furious.
From the top Islamic scholars like Syed Mohammed Tantawi, the chancellor of Al Azhar university, Cairo, and Yousuf al Qaradawi of Qatar to Islamists — Hamas in Palestinian territories and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt — the condemnation of 7/7 attacks on London has been swift and free of spin. Numerous Muslim governments and leaders too have sought to reach out to British people offering their support and sympathy.
Doubtless, these calls emanating from Muslim lands are representative of vox populi. The Muslims are indeed very angry and unhappy over what happened in London last week and has been happening in Iraq and elsewhere in their name. True, the Muslims are infuriated by what America and its allies including Britain have been doing in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the name of war on terror and promoting democracy. True, Israel’s atrocities in Palestinian territories inflame Muslim public opinion and the shame of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay does hurt them.
This however doesn’t mean the Muslims would support or sanction the terrible and insane acts unleashed on London or before it on New York and Washington. The community, let me assure you, is pained and incensed by these terror acts just like the rest of the world is. In fact, the Muslims are all the more upset because these shameful acts are carried out in their name and in the name of their great faith.
Unfortunately, however, the Muslims and their leaders have yet to send out a clear message to the world and to the extremists that these acts of terror have nothing to do with them or their religion. Of course, there have been Muslim voices condemning extremist acts from time to time. But, let us face it, we have failed to assert in unambiguous terms that the acts of violence against innocents are not sanctioned by Islam and thus are unacceptable to us. No cause, however noble and great, justifies the mass killing of innocent people. No religion preaches hatred, least of all Islam. I do not exactly share the worldview of neocon missionary Thomas Friedman but he is not far off the mark when he argues that terrorism is a threat to Islam.
While the world tries to comprehend and deal with the scourge of terrorism, the Muslim world must wake up to the clear and present danger it’s facing in extremism. In fact, more than the West, it is the Muslim world that is threatened by the spectre of terror. Extremism not only threatens the identity of our faith and its truly liberating, universal teachings but our very existence and way of life. Terror threatens to undermine all that Islam has contributed to the world over the past 15 centuries.
What we are witnessing is not a clash of civilisations, as Samuel Huntington likes to interpret it. This is a do-or-die battle for Islam’s soul being fought between the silent and peace-loving majority of its followers and a tiny extremist minority that is seeking to distort and subvert its teachings. We can’t afford to lose this war of ideas to the lunatic fringe as represented by Osama bin Laden.
If Islam has to prevail as the faith of peace, compassion and universal brotherhood that it is, then we must all join this battle for Islam’s soul. We have to say in one, loud and clear voice to the terrorists: Not in our name, no! Bin Laden doesn’t represent us and we mustn’t allow him to do that. As long as Muslims don’t speak for themselves and Islam, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda will continue to speak for them. High time the silent majority asserted itself making it clear what it believes in and what Islam stands for.
In the meanwhile, if the West is serious in dealing with the threat of extremism, it must do its bit. The line that terror can’t be defeated without eliminating its causes may be worn-out as an argument but is nonetheless true. Britain’s Blair has woken up to this sobering reality. When will Bush realise this? This war can’t be won by the West without the Muslim support and without addressing the factors that continue to feed terror and Bin Laden’s endless supply of kamikaze soldiers.
Say 'No To Terrorism'…
Act now, send a picture with a message to terrorists, tell them 'NO', 'Not in my name'…
Tell the criminals of any race, religion and nation, 'NO'…
NOTOTERRORISM.COM
Haitham, are you going to write about the results of Jordanian opinions written in the Pew survey? It was disturbing for me.
I've thought about this post for several days, and agree with Jawad and Zaratul. The burden of proving that Islam is a religion of peace lies with peace-loving Muslims. After the Pew results, even I, a long term US resident of Jordan, need some assurance.
It may get boring and even sickening to say it over and over when you are not personally responsible, but it is really necessary if you want to convince Joe Redneck American/German/Korean that Muslim does not equal terrorist. I can say this from experience, having spent the better part of 20 years apologizing for my government's poor foreign policy and my culture's exportation of trash. Yet when I see the bridge that is built between people will listen, empathize and even express sorrow and regret, it is worth it to identify with the less desirable aspects of my Umma. It works both ways, when I go home and run into Jane Redneck at the store and help her understand what the Arab world is about-contrary to media frenzy.
Haitham, you and others have an extraordinarily important role in these days to take back what you believe Islam to truly be. If you don't, the minority bad guys win and we all lose. Fight the good fight, and I'll be watching and praying for you. And referring Joe Redneck to your website!
Terrorists(of the Muslim variety) do not target Cuba, Mexico, Peru for one very simple reason, none of these countries plays a direct or indirect role in the political policies that are driving the terrorists. If killing Christians, or even Jews for that matter, was the driving force behind these people they could hit easy targets all over the world. Why pick harder targets like the US and UK? Because these two countries play a direct role in the policies that these people are fighting.
Dont buy the nonsense that these people are fighting to establish a world wide Islamic caliphate. I dont think more than a handful of Muslims worldwide would fight and die for such a concept. Bin Laden sticks to very concrete selling points when pushing for his jihad. American support for dictators in the Islamic world such as those in Egypt, Uzbekistan ect. US troops in the Arabian/Persian Gulf. US support for Israel. US efforts to keep oil prices low.
There are real reasons why these people do what they do. That does not justify their actions, but it certainly makes it clear why they are doing what they are. Refusal to accept this fact is putting the whole world at danger. You cannot address and issue if you refuse to accept it exists. The Western world, especially the UK and US, refuse to want to accept their role in international affaris and refuse to address these issues.
Here in America we cannot accept that we do anything but positive in the world, so if people attack us it MUST be for something that we didnt do, it must be because they are "jealous" or they "hate us." We MUST take an honest look at our policies world wide. As an American I know this is far from happening. We still have the president and bice president telling people they hate us for "our freedoms." Hint, people dont blow themselves up because you can buy a beer and wear a bikini top.
Thanks Abu Sinan for answering my question. This is exactly the conclusion I wanted to reach to.
If these Jihadist (Holy War fighters) objectives are killing Christians and Jews (Muslims are victims too), they have much easier targets to hit than US and UK. So why don't they?
Therefore, selecting harder targets clearly defies what the US media (and those who support it) is trying to impose as a fact.
Yes, Jihad is one of Islam concepts and pillars. No, these terrorists are not Jihadist, they are criminals, unfortunately born as Muslims.
kinzi, about the Pew survey. Yes, I'll write about it.
As for what Jawad and Zaratul said, I also agreed with them with my reservation over few points I mentioned in my comments.
Anyway, I hope to find time soon to write my commentary over Pew survey.
Mean while, I'm looking forward for more support to my new project: NOTOTERRORISM.COM. Please help spread the word!
Point is easily made Haitham, to those who want to listen. Why dont the jihadsts bomb Vatican City? Why not bomb the Morman Temple in Utah?
There are CLEAR political goals in mind and anyone who thinks otherwise either has their head in the sand or is one of the people being targeted by these goals.
Listen to one of bin Laden's speeches and it is clear what their goals are. Listen to why jihadists are joining up and you'll see it too. They are not seeking to conquer the world for Islam, no matter what their rhetoric says, they are looking to make gains on political issues.
Some Arabs and Muslims go WAY too far. They basically grovel at the feet of Christians and Westerners who are going to despise them no matter what they do. So they are not accepted and they humiliate themselves.
As long as MOhammed Atta's father goes on TV and encourages more killing, as long as imams in Cairo and Britain encourage more killing, as long as ridiculous US senators talk about nuking Mecca, as long as a majority of Jordanians believe it is ok to kill US citizens, you will need to continue to need to convince the rest of the world that moderate Islam is the true expression of your faith.
This isn't groveling and humiliating yourself (and by the way, as a Western Christian who loves your country, I have no interest in seeing anyone 'grovel'). It is making your voices the primary ones. At this point, after the Pew survey, I myself am going to need more reassurance.
The real issue, and battle, is between the extremists on either side.
"Violence has been an integral part of Muslim history, irrespective of whether it is sanctioned by Islam, and Muslims who unhesitatingly use violence to advance their political ambitions have created a climate within their faith-culture that any Muslim who questions such practice is then deemed apostate and subject to harm." SALIM MANSUR, London Free Press
Your history of martyrdom is the root cause.
Anyone can claim anything, and with enough barging and media support, you can easily win. I'm really surprised were do the western media brings all these so called Muslim writes to write about Islam and Arab. Examining these greate Muslims reformers lead every time to discover that they are far from being Muslims. Look at Asra Nomani – the wedlock, or Irshad Manjani – the lesbian, and now who the hell is this Salim Mansur?
Anyway, since the case is believing anyone (Calling himself Muslim or non-Muslim) who says anything against us, then I have no option but to compare the history of Islam and Christianity.
Here is an excerpt from an article by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat – Montreal, Canada in 1983:
For centuries now Christian nations have been busy beating up one Muslim nation or another. In the Middle Ages they came as crusaders. Then they colonized many Muslim countries and tried to destroy their cultures and religion. During their struggle for independence some Muslims had to suffer terrible violence. The French killed about a million Muslims in Algeria because they wanted independence.
The USA and Britain killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (with the approval of about 90% of their people) without letting the world see the blood, thus practicing a lesson learned during the Vietnam war. Serbs have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims and raped thousands of women in Bosnia and Kosovo. Although in these lands, a combination of rare circumstances put the West (USA and Western Europe) on the side of the Muslims, this did no good to them because the Western powers did not want to loose any of their own soldiers. Had the West left the Muslim Bosnians and ethnic Albanians to their fate without putting an arms embargo on them, their suffering would not have been any greater.
Israel has been for half a century destroying the Palestinian people with the help of arms and financial and moral support provided by the USA, the very sort of crimes that have been committed by the Serbs against the people of Kosovo and which have been condemned by the West, even though there were no cameras to record the cries of the Palestinians and photograph the pictures of the massacred people and burning homes. In Lebanon when Christians were in the majority there was war, but now that the Muslims are in the majority there is peace except in the south of the country where Christians have been helping a foreign enemy against their own countrymen. When an American president needs to divert his people's attention away from his sex scandal the easiest thing he finds is to bomb Muslim countries — Afghanistan, Sudan and Iraq — because he knows that this will be approved by a vast majority of his people. And then there is the media which is ever busy in maligning the Muslims while they do not at this point in time possess the resources to speak up: for every word spoken/written by a Muslim and heard/read by one person, a thousand words from a Christian are received by a thousand persons in the world. At the international level the voices of the Muslims are all but drowned by the Christian voices and those Christian voices are for the most part condemnatory. If a cartoonist was to depict the situation between the Western and Muslim civilizations, he or she will draw a weaker person not able or inclined to stand up or to speak while another stronger person is standing over him with a big stick, now and then beating him, and all the while shouting to him in a loud voice: you are a violent man.
It is important for both Muslims and Christians to ask: What will the Christian be if the tables were turned and their lands were first colonized by Muslims and then bombed or maligned or ethnically cleansed? If the past is any guide, the answer is clear: There will be a vicious reaction and given the chance an attempt at almost total destruction of the Muslims. For in Spain Muslims lived for about 850 years as rulers. They lived with Jews and Christians for the most part in a spirit of tolerance and cooperation in promoting science and culture to the point that their work prepared for the modern scientific revolution with all its benefits for mankind. But the moment Muslims became weaker, the hate in the Catholic heart came out with a vengeance. Muslims were either killed, converted, or forced to leave Spain and their heritage was as fully destroyed as was humanly possible. Before Palestine and Kosovo, there was Spain.
Above, I have mentioned only what the Christian nations have been doing or are doing to the Muslims. But when we look at what they have done to each other or to other people any validity in their claim of being people of love and peace vanishes.
The native peoples of the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand bear a tragic witness to what Christian nations can do to other nations and with the blessings and assistance of Christian churches. In this century alone the Western nations have fought two world wars with tens of millions dead and untold misery for the living. For each victory in these two wars the church bells rang in the victorious countries. The first nation to make a weapon of mass destruction and the only one to use it is a Christian nation…
Haitham! I am seeing a huge problem. Is America a "Christian nation"? No way! Maybe the principles of law were based somewhat on Christian values – there is still a legacy of the "Golden Rule" that keeps people keeping the law. America is a secular nation that worships freedom to sin, power and getting more stuff, not God. It is not any more indicative of Christianity than was Catholicism in the dark ages. Although many may call themselves Christians, those who live as they believe are a very small percentage.
Islam, just in it's expansion without wars, has destroyed other cultures and religions, too, and having a historical tit-for-tat isn't helpful for today (but maybe sacre-bleu started it). Ultimately, power has corrupted leaders in all religions. Yes, we have to learn from yesterdays lessons, but I think the point was what will be necessary to convince the world that true Islam is not about blowing others up or world domination.
I wonder what Dr. Shafaat is saying today.
A few days after the September 11 assault, George W. Bush did this:
Speaking spontaneously, he put a word on the new American purpose that both shaped it and gave it meaning. "This crusade," he said.
Anyway, I don't like to compare religions history, this is not the aim here.
As for convincing the world that Islam is not about violence, this is on going process. I saw a lot of reports in that direction, but I guess we need more attention from the western media.
Posted "Your history of martyrdom is the root cause."
Martyrdom, the English word, has religious roots from Christian martyrs. It is the very same with the Arabic word for martyr being based on the same word for witness.
Interesting point made in Robert Pape's new book:
The Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism found that there has been Christian suicide bombers. In fact, during the Lebanese civil war there were numerous Christian suicide bombers, including a female Christian high school teacher named Norma Hassan and a Christian factory worker named Elias Hard. A suicide bomber from a group called "Vanguard of Christian Arabs" killed himself as well. This is not just a Muslim action. Until the Iraqi war the majority of suicide bumbers were Hindu Tamils fighting the Buddhist government of Sri Lanka.
Facts from "Dying to Win:The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" by Robert Pape.
Yes, more attention from the world media will help, but it will mostly come from building 'relationship' with individuals. Small is big. Hey, and this is what you are doing, blogging is the way to do it both ways. People are fed up with mainstream media lies.
(Yes, and I was less than thrilled with GWB's choice of words. Arg)
I think your writing is very good and I appreciate your noting of the need for Western Media to re-define some terms. I do not say that you are all right as you must of figured out by now. I am still aassesing your words. However, you offer no solution to the problem as it is defined. You say these are not "Islamic" Extremists. They are being mis-labelled. Very well. Could you perhaps provide a label that we all could use then? I am being quite serious but it is true I find some things in your argument (I mean argument not in a bad sense but in an expository sense) annoying and self-congratulatory and it all too easily puts the blame on Western society alone.
If you know so clearly what something is NOT than you must have some idea of what that thing IS.
Tim, thanks for your notes :-)
When I say they are miss labeled, that's a believe not only of mine, but of the majority of Islam and Arab society. Unfortunately, the media do not refer to us as much as they do refer to these so called "Islam extremist."
On the other hand, what to call them? What to label them? That's easy… TERRORISTS. But that's not in favor of the PLAN. However, please keep in mind that no definition of the term has been agreed on. The question is why? Why the world can’t put a clear definition of "Terrorism and Terrorists." (Maybe one day I'll get time and write about that).
Anyway, what I was trying to say here in this article is now clear… I'm saying they are "Terrorist made by political criminals. One play the act of the victim (Unfortunately labeled as Christians and Jews), and one play the act of criminal (unfortunately labeled as Muslims and Arabs)."
Hah! A good point and so simple even the media may one day grasp it.
A very clear point. The media decided some time ago that loaded language was somehow factual and that a string of facts make up the truth. This is not always the case. It may sound odd but it is far closer to being "a truth" than much of what the media says. The truth can be far more analytical. Anyway… terrorists and politics always go hand in hand and such was the definition of terrorism back in old days. Islamic and Muslim Terrorists is not a fair a categorization. You have earned my appreciation of that point. I think sometimes we all, myself included, decide that we do not need to draw the distinction between what we are saying and what we are thinking. We must think more about what we say.
Tim. You reminded me of an old post called "Don't Say – Say Dictionary", where I talk about how the media twist the word is such a way to twist facts.
Read it and you know what we are suffering :-(
IOt is of little use to return top the past to argue that there are examples of terror here and there. It is of little or no ujse to keep faulting American policy. Simply put: can you or your readers name one state that has a Muslim majority that is not a messed up place (using democracy and equalityh as criteria)…Bahrain moving close to it…now why is it that so many muslims leave Mujslim/arab lands to go eslewehre if theyu detest immoral western culture?
Fred, the reason so many Muslims leave their own country has much more to do with money than anything. Being very close to the immigrant Muslim community in the Metro Washington DC area I can tell you that about 90% of Muslim immigrants here would go back to where they came from it similiar economic opportunities were available.
Well-said. Thank you for this essay, which I found via "My Heart's in Accra…"
I recently undertook the project of reading the Qur'an (in translation, since sadly I do not speak Arabic yet) because I wanted to be informed enough to counter the argument that Islam is a violent religion and that the Qur'an is a violent text.
It's painful to see someone commit a terrorist act while brandishing the banner of one's religion. (The news of the Jewish terrorist who gunned down several non-Jewish Israelis on a bus yesterday in Shfaram is heart-breaking to me.) I know that I'm not responsible for his acts just because we claim to read the same holy book and to worship the same God, but it's still difficult to accept that one of my co-religionists could do such a thing. This kind of behavior is a pervsion of Judaism — and when people claiming Muslim faith kill innocents, that is a perversion of Islam.
Thank you, Rachel. That was quite interesting to know that some good people like you has taken the extra mile trying to understand and be informed enough about other religions.
I read your post about reading Quran. And I think Abu Sinan (maybe others too) will be interested to read it too. He might have something to help, I don't know. I'm just guessing because he is an American turned to Islam.
Anyway, welcome to my blog, and I hope to hear from you more.
Several issues,
If you want to compare islam and Christianity ,compare Jesus and mohammed ,one personally killed people and started by his own example the bloodthirsty tun of islam the other projected peace and instructed his followers to avoid violence therefore when a Christian now or in the past follows the path of violence he is not following Christ's example ,he is rejecting it but in the case of islam mohammed's own hands were used to end life and the path was laid out for all true believers.
To the gentleman who referred to Spain,we were a CHRISTIAN nation ocupied by force by muslims,we did not invite you in therefore you were not wanted and when you lost you had to leave simple as that!
No nation that has been under muslim ocupation was happy for the ocupation (Spain,Greece,Serbia etc.) and I may also remind you that large areas of the middle east were Christian before the swords of islam laid a path of forced conversion and bloodshed that converted all except for the hardiest into muslims.
You live in Christian nations ,vote ,work and enjoy the advantages of western civilization otherwise you would not come here yet in muslim nations democracy is a fantasy and right for non muslims practically non-existant which is why your whining is so hipocritical! Yo can even visit the vatican while I could never visit mecca unless I converted to islam .(Just to illustrate the difference)
Those of you that criticize the west for lack of morals are not alone,most of those actions are contrary to Christianity.
I don't consider this a holy war ,and neither do most people because if it was it would be a truly short and bloody war in which mecca and medina would cease to exist within days of the onset of such a war.
I also don't beleive in those that say that poverty and injustice cause these actions because the perpetrators are mostly educated middle and upper middle class men and if this were the seed for terrorism Central Africa being the most opressed and ravaged area of the planet would have the highest rate of terrorism.
The truth is you all have to stop blaming others and look to yourselves and fix the problem ,otherwise things will only get worse because nobody wants a visitor in their house that can't be trusted …and you are in our house !!
AM
Yea, it's become painfully obvious with people like Norma Hassan and the others that suicide terrorist doesn't have as much to do with islamic extremism or relgious extermism at all as much as religious DIFFERENCE when a country occupies another.
No one would attack the US if the US didn't invade and control other countries. Suicide terorism only occurs when a democracy invades another country. Although the US may currently be killing terrorists, they're doing nothing to prevent a new, bigger insurgency.
Alberto, another excellent post.
Rachel, you said "I know that I’m not responsible for his acts just because we claim to read the same holy book and to worship the same God".
How exactly do you know that two people worship the "same God" ?? To be more specific, when two people next to each other pray together to the "same God" … how do you know what idea or concept of God their respective minds pray towards? Conceptions of God vary so much, it's meaningless to talk about believing in the "same God" simply because the word matches.
As far as I know muslims claim that God has nothing in common with the creation and that no created attributes can be used to describe God (that's what you call the basis for Islam, Tawheed, right?) … yet many/most muslims conceptualise God as being of male gender (genitals, testosterone and all ?), having a hand, sight and hearing, not to mention thoughts, knowledge, and even feelings … and perhaps even a throne; quite literally in some cases. Some try to justify their shallow, human-centric beliefs (which are akin to idolatry) by using the "infinity" argument; as if this is a matter of quantity and not of quality. So, they may say that God has knowledge, but it's infinite, and so on, without realising that this is no less shirk (the worst sin in Islam) than saying that God has size but it's infinite, or that God has weight but it's infinite, or that God has speed but it's infinite. Such statements are totally meaningless and self-contradictory, yet so many muslim minds are ready to commit shirk, unknowingly rendering themselves out of the folds of that which they supposedly live and die for, while at the same time attacking the evil "western science" and "western ideology" (whatever that means).
I wonder, what compels someone to exhibit such highly irrational and self-contradictory behaviour to the extent of being (self) destructive. What biological buttons are being pressed to induce such a strong subconsiousp sychological force in order to accept (and often die for) an alleged "ideology" that has no substance whatsoever and which, when push comes to shove, is vehemently defended on the basis of some vague promise (afterlife, or other) that clearly taps into the bodily biological needs inherited by lower life forms.
Thanks Haitham, I looked at her site. It is nice. I love it when peoples take an honest and open look at each others faith and come back feeling like they have learned some and gained some respect for each other. Alhamduliallah.
The Escape Clause: Arabs
Why can a nun be covered from head to toe and she's respected for devoting herself to God, but when a Muslim does that, she's "oppressed"? Why can a Jew grow a beard and he's just practicing his faith, and when a Muslim does that, he's an extremist? Why is it that when a child dedicates himself to a subject, he has potential, and when a child dedicates himself to Islam, he is hopeless? When a Christian kills someone, religion is not mentioned, (i.e. IRA) but when a Muslim is charged with a crime, it's Islam that goes to trial?
Shortly after the Oklahoma bombing, analysts in the media said the timing of the attack was similar to past bombings linked to Muslims, such as the 1993 World Trade Center attack in New York City. "The signature looks Middle Eastern," noted many American newspapers. Experts discounted American radical groups, according to Time Magazine because "few, if any, U.S. groups have the skills used in this bombing, and the car bomb is a signature weapon of several Islamic groups but no known American ones". An apology to the Muslims was never offered.
So now, who do you blame? People tend to think that if a Middle Eastern person is involved, we should target the Middle East, but now that it's an American and not an Arab, just whom do you point the finger at? Arabs tend to therefore be the scapegoat. It seems as if prejudice and discrimination are the basis of any FBI or CIA investigation.
We don't consider that the killing of 19 innocent students, injuring numerous others, and traumatizing a nation to be an act of terrorism in the Columbine shooting. The Air India bombing, Unabomber, the Montreal massacre and many such attacks were not given the intense scrutiny and assessment with the media's religion expert, like the WTC bombing.
Someone has to be blamed, and governments probably consider the ones with the smallest mouths to be those easy targets. Bush said, "we will target all terrorists of global reach", which means that Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Al-Jihad, are fair game but the IRA is not. Solely targeting Muslims is discrimination, and therein denying life without reasonable doubt isn't just cause. Arabs and Muslims were also killed in the WTC bombing, adding insult to injury would be to blame Muslims that lost family in the twin towers. Why degrade Islam by calling the Taliban, Islamic fundamentalists or Muslim terrorists. When was the last time you read an article about the IRA referring to them as Catholic extremists? If this religion is so bad, why is it after all that, Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world?
http://www.faheem.ca
When people terrorize while carrying the name of a particular religion, they make a statement about the religion. That statement can be true or false, just or unjust.
Think about it. If someone were to insult Allah and Mohammed and another person were to murder that person for "blasphemy" in the name of "Jihad", doesn't the murder itself make a more blasphemous statement? Doesn't it cause people to ask, "What are they afraid people will find out?" Doesn't it cause people to think the God of the Moslems or whatever religion is such a pathetic, worthless, incompetent wimp so lacking in truth that he cannot stand up to the least scrutiny and that those who would present any opposing opinion must be wiped out lest the truth be discovered and this weak and helpless form of a god will be exposed?
I'm not saying anything against God here, and I, too, believe in God deeply, but I feel disappointed when I see people abuse others in the name of some religion. To me, it represents that religion as a cowardly and dishonest one whether it's Moslems killing others or whether it's the inquisition or the protestants and catholics fighting or whether its the Hindus who kill or abuse people for converting to other religions.
When I look at Judge John Jones III of Pennsylvania ruling that a school district cannot mention Intelligent Design as an alternative scientific view to evolution, the first thing that comes to mind is "what a lying cowardly arrogant jackass". He speaks of freedom of religion, but he won't respect the rights of people to hear of views counter to his own so they can think for themselves. Freedom is great as long as it's freedom to do things his way. What a hypocrit.
Then there are nations like Indonesia that allow freedom to believe even though 85% of the population is Moslem. That, I feel, is VERY courageous and honorable. Yet, even still, not representing the majority, but just representing the terrorist few, hundreds of churches have been burned down and a few weeks back, three Christian high school girls were said to be beheaded.
It is said to be done "by Moslems". Yet, around that time, a news article was printed about a Palastinian man whose child was killed by Israelis allowed his child's organs to be donated to save the lives of some Israeli children.
When I hear of someone of a particular religion expressing love, and when I hear of someone of a particular religion showing courage to hear the voices of other religions without retaliating or killing or shutting them down and silencing them, I have a lot more respect for them and their culture and the beliefs they hold.
But, when I see people imprisoned or killed or abused or burned or beheaded brutally or shot because their expressed religious beliefs are different, I cannot help but wonder what sort of hair brained religion and god and prophet they serve. A true religion will stand on the basis all truth being brought out in the open. Any so-called prophet that sends people out in the name of God to slaughter all the infidels is a prophet full of dung worshipping a god full of dung, a god who is too weak to stand on truth, a god who must be defended by thugs and terrorists and murderers and thieves and liars who have to cover their lies with such activities and abuse who must deprive the people of freedom to think, to learn, to hear and consider and pray and be honest about their beliefs rather than slaughter everyone who is too cowardly to express any countering opinion. Any God worth worshipping doesn't need thugs to bully and torment others for him.
Ive just finished reading your blogged and i am very intrigued. i live in australia and we are just begining more than ever to struggle with racism. i live in a very culturally diverse suburb and i love it. next door i have half turkish half maltese married to an australian, across the road i have a lovely muslim family that i have grown up with, and then i have australians, italian you name it that makes up my street. i suffered racism as a child at school in the 80s if the government didn't stamp it out then , what hope do they have of doing it with todays generation, we were all bought up to defend ourselves but also our peers. well done on your blog, i commend you kind regards
Interesting posts, all, some I quite agree with. A few ideas (can't really call them points, lol):
1. No, all Muslims and Arabs aren't terrorists. That's a bid duh. But enough are, that the majority of Americans (that I've spoken to) feel a lot more comfy on a plane without arabs than a plane with Arabs. this goes back in history to things dating to the 70s when the nutters killed planeloads of innocents. Anyone seen the movie Munich where the Jew Steve panders to the Arabs? common, guys!
2. Not all Christians are anti-Arab. Most of us just want to either a.) be left alone or b.) get your oil! or c.) have fun in whatever way… but I don't see huge lines of tourists to go to Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Quatar, etc…. maybe it has something to do with the hoods for the women in the desert heat… or whatever.
3. Quite frankly, Christian nations have gone out of their way to pander to Islamic phobias whenever we are there. The military women in Saudia Arabia for instance, have to wear those ridiculous clothes to avoid insulting the wackers there… now I realize there may be legitimate opposition to immodest clothing, but Islam has basically forced a Christian nation to adopt Muslim standards– so much of the 'oppression theory' above is simple bs.
4. Where abuses have occured, they are historical rather than current. I'm not going to justify the Crusades any more than you'll justify the slaughter of the Christians you Muslims conquered a few hundred/thousand years ago. If we gotta pander to hate, let's at least limit it to the last 75-100 years or so, huh?
5. Nuff said. Both Christians and Arabs have legitimate disagreements. It just seems like the nutty muslims (rather than the saner governments) are awful quick to resort to the bomb. Excuse me, but the first amendment to the constitution doesn't include bombings and murders as a way to vent or express yourself. You wannta do that nonsense, do it in the arab world, don't bring it here!
J P B
Very interesting dialogue everyone. Many of you offer valid points and are highly evolved beings. Too much time is spent comparing this culture versus that culture and the justifications for this or that is copious. Ultimately, we are all accountable for our actions and reactions. How we individually act will be judged by our chosen Gods I suspect. Focus on your individual actions and ask yourself if your religion would approve. Ask yourself if it is in keeping with what is right. We can spend an inordinate amount of time rehashing history and who did what to whom and accomplish nothing in the process. Everyone of us will only see what we want to see and refuse to be persuaded therefore. As an American, I am trying to be open-minded and am more accepting of the injustices that we as a nation have perpetrated. No one is without sin or imperfections. I think it would be more useful to cease blaming others for why we act unjustly or unrighteously. In the end, it is about you and your choices. We must be rational and be above the bating. You do not have to accept an invitation to act irrationally.
If the west is so awful and contrary to your culture, why is it that Muslims in record numbers are moving to western countries. It is because they are escaping a repressive culture that pressures them to conform. In America they are able to decide for themselves and improve their standard of living. No, I am not disparaging Muslim countries but it is a curious thing. In France for example, why are Muslims there when the French culture is unjust toward them. Muslims then complain that they can't find work or are being discriminated against. If you are going to move to another country you need to make an effort to assimilate. It does not mean that you forget your roots or customs but an effort needs to be made. What I love about America is that we are a melting pot. There is such a variety of everything, which makes it so much more interesting to me. I know, we don't live in a utopia but darn it's good to be an American. God bless all of God's children and may peace resonate in your heart.
Hi Robert!
A great point about rehashing history, I always say, "what now". Unfortunately history may be a long time ago, or the affects of that history maybe now. It is so very hard to break a pattern that benefits you but may be harming another. I think it is just human nature. Have you seen the movie, don't know the exact name but something with "sunshine of the mind in it" It's about a program that enables people to be deprogrammed of their past emotions. Maybe that would be useful here but it was after all just a movie. But then again, what now?
As for being an American, I am too. I've traveled alot as you know from my prior posts. It is so easy for most of us to say "Here in America we are a melting pot and people assimilate". But I can honestly tell you that it is Americans who are the worst at this when they travel because they expect other cultures to bend to OUR idea of the ideal society. I have seen so many "American compounds" overseas where the people live and never go outside except when necessary. They send their children to American schools so they don't have to be taught in the language of the country where they are residing. All their friends are American, their foods are imported. You get the picture. Bravo to those Americans who don't fit this model and live as those do in their host countries. Bravo to those in America who respect differences and welcome others here. No bravo to France for banning the scarfs of Moslem women. No bravo to making the whole world look like America. It would be just one big boring world and sooner or later, let's admit even here we have our prejudices.
Robin,
You make very good point when you indicated that Americans often want other cultures to submit to our ways. I say, when in Rome do like the Romans. We need to get this chip off our shoulder thinking that our way is the right way and should be emulated. There are so many beautiful cultures out there waiting to be experienced. One thing to consider. It is easy for Americans to think that they do not need to experience other cultures because the world is so Americanized. When one travels abroad you see McDonalds, Pizza Hut etc. When I go out of town I try to eat at places that we do not have at home. More Americans should do the same when they travel abroad. I have traveled all over also and I love to experience the differences without thinking that our way is the best way. We are simply different. By the way, no offense taken whatsoever regarding any of your comments.
Robert,
Once I took a group tour by myself to Austia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Italy. When I arrived in Vienna there was a mother-daughter team I gravitated towards and we agreed to go into town together. When we got there, where did they want to eat? You guessed it, McDonalds!! Needless to say I politely excused myself and walked the old town alone and ate by myself in a cute little cafe. I would rather be ALONE than with people such as these. At least I know I can strike up a conversation with a local, English permitting, and have a good time. I bet you've had similar experiences. Have you ever been to the Mideast? Know any Arabs or Moslems? And I'm going to ask another silly question, since the title of this site is "Arabs and Muslims are Not Terrorists", what do you think?
Robin,
No, I have never been to the middle east or know any Arabs or Muslims. I live in south Texas about eight miles from the Mexican border. The population as you might expect is 85% Hispanic. I am open to knowing anyone of any culture and suspending my judgment until I get to know them. What I read does not impact me in the least regarding Muslims and terrorism. I know that there are extremists that give Muslims a bad name. It is the same thing with the few soldiers that gave America a bad name in Iraq with the torture etc. All to often we decide ahead of time what a culture is all about without investigating ourselves. People are people and we all need basically the same things. What did you mean by what do you think? About what?
Robert,
You answered my question. We're on the same page. For that matter, I am originally from Texas too, grew up in Dallas, mother's family in Terrell, may parents live in Wills Point, a little town off Highway 80. I go there every summer. I can only imagine you don't know any Arabs in your locale. Just wondering when I asked the question, but knowing the geography I understand your answer. How did you come out so normal growing up there? Please don't be offended. It's just I know what rural Texas is like cause that's where I grew up, or at least, that was the type of family I had, parents educated but my mother is the daughter of a share-cropper. Lot's of prejudice, but not from my parents who got out of it.
Robin,
Actually I did not grow up in South Texas. I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska. My values are from the midwest. I have been living in south Texas since 1989 however and I love the culture and people here. Furthermore, I am a Hispanic college graduate-a Therapist actually. There are very few Hispanic college graduates. The research indicates that 93% of Mexican Americans do not have a college degree. I was fortunate in my life to travel abroad and to get an excellent education. Perhaps that answers your question about how I turned out so normal. It was an interesting question on your part.
Muslims are not terrorists, terrorists are terrorists and they come from all cultures. Anyone that terrorizes is guilty of being a terrorist. It is important that we understand that very significant point for the sake of this dialogue. Take care Robin and I enjoyed our conversation.
Hi Robert Ruiz,
Hi Robin,
Terrorism is a plague of our modern times, which has appeared as a result of the injustices that exist among people in the same country and among different countries, or those made by totalitarian regimes. It appears under many facets and ideologies be it Islam or Communism or any other doctrine. Arabs and Moslems are just humans with another culture and another religion. What accentuated terrorism and related it to Moslems and Arabs is the everlasting conflict between Israel supported by America and some other European countries on one side and the Palestinians supported by the Arab world and by Islamic countries on the other. The implication of the US in the Middle East conflict made of it an enemy that’s so strong that it couldn’t be fought by any other means than terrorism.
Robert,
If you're still there, my interesting question was a joke based on the experience of my ex-husband encountering so much racism in Texas. It's sort of my quirky personality to cover up painful experiences with joking. I apologize if I offended you because I really meant it as a compliment because you're NOT like the many people who offended him in the past. No I don't think all Texans are racists, but I do know a few who are and that's what I meant by you being normal as opposed to them.
On 9/11 my fear was two-fold. I was scared to the bone thinking the whole country was under attack. But quite honestly, I was actually watching the news when the second airplane hit and I KNEW, I just knew, my god my ex-inlaws could come under fire from us. I knew immediately in my gut it was Bin Ladin and since most people cannot differentiate between Arab/Moslem/terrorist, they don't even put in the slash, they're all the same. I have a daughter whose college called the FBI because she receives her tuition as a direct deposit from Saudi Arabia. This is utterly frightening on both sides for me and I only wish EVERYONE could tell the difference because it is so very dangerous when we don't. Just keep in mind my ex is an Arab/Moslem so I hope to goodness I know the difference.
I've enjoyed our conversation too Robert, and I hope you understand where I truly come from and that I am sorry if I offended you.
Tamim, Robin,
You made some good points about how the conflict between the west and Muslims has come to this-terrorism. I disagree with you Tamim that terroristic acts are the only way to fight back. You say "it could not be fought by any other means." Too many innocent people are killed in the process. If terroristic acts were directed toward soldiers and military targets only then I might be able to agree. The terrorists in Iraq led by Zarqawi blow up anybody and anything to include holy sites. Terrorists are deviant and nefarious whether they are Muslim, Dutch, American or Palestinian period.
Robin, you keep apologizing for offending me. I have never been offended by you. Regards.
Robert
Terrorism is blind .When a group can’t fight you directly in an open conventional war because you are better armed and better organized and you outnumber them, they fight you in the way that makes them achieve better results with little efforts and means. They attack your airports or commercial centres to exercise pressing on you. I’m not saying they are right to do so. I’m just saying that’s the reason for doing it that way. However, the same war can be seen from the opposite side as legitimate. Israel for instance has always used the term terrorist for Palestinian resistance even before suicide bombers appeared. The IRA in Ireland was considered terrorist by the British, while they considered themselves as resistance against occupation.
Tamin,
Absolutely correct. But it's kind of like arguing differences of religion. Same goal, different method. Any ways, point well taken by myself. I never used to understand it, but I do now.
War is HELL no matter who the perpetrator is. Notice I did not say participant, but instead am trying to refer to the instigator. Hope you understand what I mean 'cause I'm having a hard time explaining my point, but I think you understand my bias.
Enjoy your input and unlike myself, you have a better way of explaining it.
Robin
Robert Ruiz
Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists because terrorism has no religion as it has no race or ethnicity. It’s not a way of life nor is it a hobby or a tradition. It’s an ugly political tool. When one accuses Arabs or Moslems of being terrorists, it’s like accusing whites of racism while blacks too can be racist, or accusing the Jews of being Zionists, or accusing Christians of being anti-Semitic. Everybody can be anything.
Terrorism is a crime no matter who perpetrates it and no matter what the circumstances or the motives are as there are no excuses or justifications for terrorist acts.
America, on the other hand, and its foreign policy produces enemies while it has all the possibilities to be a respectful and respected country.
The Gulf war showed America as an invader especially when there turned out to be no mass destruction weapons in Iraq. Saddam Hussein’s practices as a dictator did not constitute solid justification for invading Iraq He wasn’t the only dictator in the region or in the world. He even used to be supported by the US in their ‘war’ against Iran in the same way as they supported The Taliban in Afghanistan against the former Soviet Union. The CIA could not regrettably avoid Sept 11th because they were busy working abroad against potential enemies or in favour of false friends…
Robert and Tamim,
Terrorism IS nefarious.
What I meant by understanding was that I understand WHAT the reasoning is, but I do NOT think it to be a valid weapon. Gosh, isn't the proof in the pudding when so many innocent people die?
I saw the seeds being sown 30 years ago, they have grown into a tree of poison. Tamin, absolutely Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists. Many terrorists ARE Arabs and Moslems. Please notice I did not insert a "but". Unfortunately this is a tragic case of guilt by association. My ex was camping 10 kilometers from Abquaiq when the terrorist tried to blow it up. Terrorism is dangerous to him on a daily basis with roadblocks everywhere. I have NO idea how to stamp this out. I do know it is not to counter it with Christianity. It is chilling to the bone.
Robert, I will NOT apologize again. I am new to blogging and cannot infer tone from writing from people I do not know. I am trying so very hard NOT to offend and am maybe oversensitive when I read a response. I am enjoying the dialogue greatly and wish it to go on. Just me I guess being too careful and not wanting to say something offensive. That's MY problem, not yours. Peace.
I wish all the terrorist creatures of whatever faith they are would read a bit about resistance fighting in the European countries occupied by the Nazis in WWII.
Terrorism is not resistance fighting, it is just spreading terror in a counter-productive manner.
What could be called 'humanity' is the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters. Terrorists bomb civilians to cause as large human casualties as possibel while freedom fighters bomb infrastructure of financial or military significance with as low civilian casualties as possible.
Terrorists are fighting against humanity while freedom fighters are fighting against an opressor!
Thomas,
Great differentiation on your part. Thanks for the explantion. Don't you think that maybe that's also where the deepseeded hatred shows up as a difference too? Method vs method is one thing which you defined very well. Motive vs Motive is also an issue. What do you think?
Thomas,
I made a similar point earlier. I belive Tamim was justifying terrorism by suggesting that it was an effective method for fighting against a better armed military like the U.S. There is no justification for terrorism since it hurts the innocent. I told Tamim that attacks needed to be carried out against military targets and infrastructure. You made an excellent distinction in your blog and I could not agree more.
Thomas,
Apologies for the question, you answered it in your last sentence.
The hatred, what do we fight it with when they run planes into buildings? Iraq is CERTAINLY not the answer. I find myself at a complete loss. It's so freakin hard being an American these days.
But then again, at least some of us know WHY it is so hard. By the way, I DID see your post before it went bye-bye and that's why I answered the question about "should we" 'cause you asked me too where it was. Just remember, I HATE guns!
Robin,
Quite the contrary, it is easy being an American these days. Were you referring to the bad press we get as a country? Perhaps you have a point. However, I will never think anything other than thank God I am an American. America is always criticized because we are proactive in trying to take a lead role in world affairs. Yes, we make mistakes but our intentions are honorable. I read a lot on these blogs that America has supported dictators or that we supported Iraq against the Iran war etc. It is strategy period. We never said that we agreed with what their governments stand for. There is a big difference. We do what is in our national interest to do and sometimes we have compromised ourselves. There is a reason for it. Robin, make no mistake, it is great to be an American period!
Hey Robert,
There's nowhere in the world I would rather hail from. The freedom, the people, the beauty. What I was referring to from my perspective is as an American I find myself in a position of being lumped together in the big bag of "Ugly Americans". I have lived, breathed an eaten another life somewhere and got to look at us the way they do. Yes it is strategy, but too often our strategy makes innocent people in other countries pay the price.
Having lived abroad I have been the recipient of some of our strategy and it isn't a pretty site. I have seen too many others who have been victims of our strategy also. I prefer to be a citizen of the world than only tie myself to this country. I think that our administration has sold our people a big pack of honorable lies and people are dying because of them. I think that the port deal was made due to business interests. Check out the Carlyle Group and their members. The Bush family is profiting and Dubai World Ports has a major investment in this hedge-fund-policy maker. I think you ought to check out PNAC, Project for the New American Century, take special note of their members, past and present and their mission statement if you can find it. THAT is what I was referring to, not America as I so love. The "bad press" is only the tip of the iceberg Robert, it's all those dead people, past, present and futute who have died because of our strategy. No, I'm not going to apologize for feeling the way I do. God Bless America and help our good and honorable people take it back!
Robin
I agree with you and admire your clarity and courage and your objective reasoning.Thank you for unintentionally helping me make my point.
Tamim,
I've got lots more of the same up my sleeve to use when necessary. It isn't about tearing down my country. It is about being as darn educated as you can and being willing to look at reality. My country's foreign policy sucks and it's been that way for a LONG time. Latin America, Southeast Asia, Palestine, you name it. We even give aid for AIDS and refuse to allow condom education!! Don't get me started. Thanks for the comment and I'm glad I could help you out.
Masalama
Robin,
Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaassssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee! So only our strategy and foreign policy has harmed others. Other countries policies have not harmed Americans or others? Give me a break. I realize America is not perfect and I to have lived in other countries and tasted their culture. Yes, I have seen America from their perspective. People nearly always serve their own interests, that is nothing new. The terrorists on 911 killed innocent people. Why don't you rant about that instead of disparaging America as everyone else does. You call yourself insightful and educated. Give me a break Robin. If America is as bad as you depicted it then stay over there wherever that may be. The administration is the people. The people put that administration in power. The people voted it in for a second term. America's policies are thought out and they don't have to be accepted worldwide. That is the definition of being a leader.
Robin,
What you need to have up your sleeve more of is LOYALTY! I respect your dissent and am not getting after you for it but you've joined the American haters. It is like giving comfort to the enemy. I too would prefer that sides were not chosen and that we lived in a distinctionless world. Yes, it would be nice if we all just considered ourselves citizens of the world. That is not the world we live in Robin so wake up. You have become a basher of America. You don't have to apologize for it. Many Americans have died to give you that right. Many wars have transpired since the beginning of time and other countries and administrations have hurt innocent people. You isolate America with your rantings and feed into the lets hate America crowd. If foreigners do it I understand. They don't really know us. But you know that our ideals, civil rights and opportunities are blessings. Wake up.
Robert,
Honestly, do you think I don't know about 911? Did I anywhere in my ramblings suggest that I didn't. But quite honestly, from MY perspective I thought about two things that day: Oh SHIT, we're under attack then Oh Shit, we're going to attack them back and innocent blood will be on OUR hands. Do you honestly think I have not seen Islamic terrorism, Christian terrorism up close and personal? I've seen with my own little eyes them killing each other in Beirut and had to avoid being killed myself by diving under a car! Give ME a break. The only way you can make a change for the better in any relationship is to face up to your mistakes, drag them out, and beat the hell out of them.
You told me to stop apologizing. I will take your advice and stay right where I am thankyou.
Robert,
Did not see your second post before I posted. Cool down! Can you please use your skills to differentiate between being an "Ameerica hater" and someone who is willing to bring it all out? The same rule should go for them as well. Do you honestly think that this is a means to communicate to the world what we are about, ostriches with flags waving? This is precisely WHY they hate US Robert. Do you think that diplomatic ambassadors get very far using this tactic? Own up, apologize, and make change in your own policies so that ALL parties benefit. THAT is what I am saying.
Robin,
Is anybody else apologizing? Why do we need to apologize? For what? Our leaders make decisions, hopefully thought out and they are implemented. We the people give them the power to act on our behalf. If we disagree enough times then we as a people vote them out. I know you know that but I am pointing out that our government doesn't make impulsive decisions. There are checks and balances there to ensure that things are discussed, debated and carefully considered. You say that our policies are the reasons others hate America. That is their right. They can take the issue up at the United Nations or attack us as they did on 911. We then have the right to impose our will militarily or sanctions. I am calm Robin, I am just fed up with the America bashing. I agree that dissent is vital in a democracy to bring light to injustices. However, you are either with us or against us. Accept the good with the bad of America. Hopefully there is more good than bad and I firmly believe it to be so. You seem to be playing both sides of the fence. If you focus on all the good that America has done then you would check your tone when disparaging America. This is the land of the brave and the free, apple pie and Chevrolet. Remember?
Robert,
I propose this analogy as a peace offering to you:
Let's imagine all nations are toads.
The bigger the toad, the more the warts it has.
Look in the mirror. What do you see?
A toad with warts.
Continue to love yourself as a toad.
Just don't start upsetting the balance in the pond we all share.
Robert,
Again I didn't see your post before I posted
I drive a HONDA because it gets better gas milage.
Robin,
Thank You for your ability to be neutral. I assure you I'm not biased against America. We are just exchanging views about what's going on around us, knowing that we are not decision makers and our views are not going to change the world. I’ve never been to your country but I know quite a lot about it through my university studies. You know language carries culture with it and my knowledge of your language makes it easier for me to understand your culture and your life style and may be your mentality. I can’t deny you are a great nation and your country has always been an example of freedom and democracy and your personal way of thinking shows me a real American, A real citizen of a superpower that does care about world prosperity and about justice and peace for everybody around the world. I’m glad to be able to discuss with you as a person of a free mind, to learn and to correct wrong ideas I may have about your country and about Americans. Love for one‘s country can sometimes make it difficult to admit mistakes. But love for one’s country must make one see his country’s flaws as well. I’m like you; I have no complex to say what I think. And that’s how bridges are built between cultures and nations.
Robert,
I never justified terrorism. I never suggested that it was an effective method for fighting against a better armed military like the U.S. I tried to describe the phenomenon.
I disagree with your way of addressing Robin when she just expressed her opinion about American foreign policy. Democracy allows different views as far as I know, but you don’t. No Administration is sacred or infallible even in a democracy. When you said “you are either with us or against us.” I had the impression President Bush is talking. I can’t imagine one gets accused of being hostile to his own country for expressing a different opinion. I’m sorry but what kind of democracy is this? Please Robin, try to be more realistic.
Tamim,
Your post is actually one of the nicest posts to me I have received. Thank you so very much for your comments Tamim, I will keep them close.
Our country is HUGE, and diverse, and open to freedom of speech and I appreciate that more than anyone might realize who wishes for me to quiet myself. It is because of my experience in your culure, albeit a different country (Saudi Arabia) that I personally come to my views. I think that if all of us keep the bridges to understanding open, then cooperation will ensue. I am not willing to resort to taking it to the United Nations. I want to start here, right now, with others who are willing to keep an open mind about themselves and others. Tamim, quite honestly, you and I both know we cannot just lump all the people of a country into a convenient bag and lable them with their country's foreign policies. Sometimes we agree with our governments, sometimes we do not, and sometimes we disagree STRONGLY because we want peace for all mankind. I am not a naive person, just a very empathetic one who wishes to see the "toad" warts and all, even if that toad is myself. I discuss history for one reason only, because just because I might want to deny it, the other party is still feeling the affects. I discuss our shortcomings because to deny them is to close the door to those we have harmed I have to recognize that.
Maybe apologies will get us nowhere, but it is a start to becoming humane towards others. That is why I find them necessary. As for the present, let us all, each and every individual be responsble for spreading peace and prosperity to one another. Thank you again for your comments. Let's strenghthen that bridge and welcome others to cross it with us.
Shukran khatir and Masalama.
Tamim, Robin and anybody else that thinks I am trying to silence anyone from their point of view. Go back and read my entries, I never tried to say that Robin cannot opine. Quite the contrary, I said I respect her right to dissent or disagree. That is fine. Robin, what balance we all share? Go back and check history of the world. There are always superpowers or dominant countries. They usually get their way. I am not saying that since we are a superpower we can therefore do as we wish. If we are to be respected we have to act righteously. That to me is the key here. Tamim, so I sound like Bush! Perhaps you are right. My comment was stated in frustration to the newfound phenomenon called "Bash America." It is in vogue now. People disagree with our presence in Iraq and that is fine. Think about all the mass graves that have been discovered and the gassing of the Kurds. Don't you think Iraqis deserve better? The president acknowledged that we went to war with faulty intelligence. That is hindsight. He does not have his head in the sand. President Bush is very unpopular perhaps because he lacks charisma but his decisions are guided by Christian principles. Believe it or not.
Robert,
You keep going back to 9/11 to justify the US's current foreign policy. That's fine because I agree with you. America should defend itself against people who want to harm it. America should do whatever it takes to defend its citizens. Your own citizens should support their President in these situations.
However, I believe that you should go back five years and really see 9/11 for what it really was. Please, find out the reality before you run to the defense of the current administration before they call you a traitor.
Please visit this site http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194&q=9/11+Conspiracy. This video is called Loose Change by Alex Jones. I hope that it will allow you to ask the questions that maybe you failed to ask on that horrific day.
I hope that every blogger here visits this website.
Even though it is heart-breaking to watch, I hope you watch it anyways.
Maybe you will use all of the rights that your blessed country has given you to ask questions, instead of running to place the blame at the feet of those you are so willing to hate.
Dena,
First of all, I am not willing to hate anyone. I dislike some people's actions but I don't waste my precious time hating anyone or any culture. It upsets my emotional balance. I went to the website you suggested to be enlightened but it was too long for me to sit through. Perhaps later. Anyone that disagrees with the current administration is not a traitor and I have never said so. Disloyal? Perhaps. I am not defending this administration so much as defending the USA as a whole. All of a sudden America is some horrible place that people love to bash. I am standing up against that erroneous propensity based on some administrations decisions. Quite frankly, I am not political and I do not vote. I served my country for four years back in 1980 and it was a privilige to give back to a country that has given me so much. At the same time, I realize that we have made many mistakes but who hasn't. All I am saying is that America is a wonderful country founded on righteous principles and freedoms. I won't sit idle while people try to demonize us. We are a good people and that we do not have to apologize for. Period.
Robert,
I believe you, Robert but it’s not the Christian principles that are faulty It’s the outcome .How can you accuse Robin of being disloyal to her country and of joining “American Haters”. After all you are not going to court martial her!! Your reaction at least helps me understand, as one of the “foreigners” who “don’t know” you, how some Americans fail to be good ambassadors of their country.
Tamim,
You are harsh. Perhaps that says something about your culture. You are suggesting that I am an example of the "ugly American." Quite the contrary. You don't know me so don't pretend to based on some hearty dissension with opposing views. Now I am a negative ambassador for my country. I am an excellent ambassador. First of all, I respect other cultures and have said so-read back. I have not disparaged any culture. My roots are from a different country than the US. If standing up for my country makes me a bad ambassador then so be it. I will not apologize for that. It is like having children-we love them no matter what. That is how I feel about the US. I suggested that Robin was disloyal. That is my opinion and no I don't need to courtmartial her. I do not possess such powers. By the way Robin, I drive a Honda also. It was fun bantering with all of you today and hope to continue tomorrow. Peace.
Tamim,
I step away from this for a couple of hours and come back to THIS? Someone "suggesting" I am disloyal does not make it so.
I do get a little worried about the slippery slope from "disloyal" to "traitor". It's so common here and another reason I stated that it is so hard being an American I've received these comments before, even from demonstrators outside the Democratic phone banks I helped man during the last election. It's very unpleasant, but a necessary part of our democracy Don't worry about me. I'm still here even if I do have to dodge a few rotten tomatoes being tossed my way. Our bridge is still in tact and will never be taken out by someone stating their own opinion that I am un-American.
Robert,
CALM DOWN and stop throwing insults at either one of us please. Here's another analogy
People are all toads
Toads have warts
Your warts are no prettier or uglier than mine
Look in a mirror and see your own warts, I'll do the same
Stop slashing so much because we'd all enjoy a liesurly swim.
We're all in this big pond together.
So I am not a traitor but I am perhaps disloyal? The last time I checked my loyalty is supposed to be to my country and its' Constitutiion, NOT to an administration. I truly do think you are getting the two mixed up. My loyalty is to the values of our nation, not to failed American individuals or policies. I do NOT want to be in the position of having to take our country's grievances with another country to the UN. I want to AVOID that. And I certainly want to avoid any more planes knocking down our buildings as you stated above. Robert, I am talking D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y and that is not achieved by coming to the table without admitting your mistakes. Maybe I am completely wrong, and I truly hope so, I feel you are proposing your way or the highway. I enjoy bantering too Robert, but I am also feeling a need to rest from this. Good Night and Good Luck, a movie you should see.
Robert,
I missed one VERY important part of your post above saying "don't you think Iraqis deserve better (Hussein)" ABSOLUTELY, but they did NOT get better from our invasion of their country, they got ANOTHER BAD. Over 180,000 dead Iraqis Robert. Terrorism is also met out by using what we view as conventional warfare. Are these innocent people any less dead than if it were by Hussein? Unavoidable colateral damage? These are DEAD DEAD DEAD people caused by US. WMD, Al-Quaida, spreading democracy? b——t.
It's called American business interests making a buck and positioning themselves in the Mideast to take over their oil. PLEEEEEEEZE read the mission statement of PNAC as I suggested. It's all there in black and white from 1997, their desire to position our countries forces there. Hell, they even want to control space. Who are these people of PNAC? Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Bob Novak, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearl….. All members of our current administration. Stand by this country all you want, but I will NOT support this.
Tamim,
I am willing to take this risk again, even though doing so in the past has resulted in hate-email and scam charities contacting me as well as some wonderful ties to people in other places My email is rmclaren@charter.net . I am offering this to you as part of the bridge I would so like to build and to continue any inpertinent conversation there. You can even set up a yahoo email just for your purpose and close it whenever you want to. I hope you at least consider this offer because I think it can result in some very good dialog.
TisBha'alakher
Robert Ruiz,
I’m not harsh and my culture is not harsh.
I may have been ‘harsh’ without meaning it, while trying to comment on your reaction to Robin which, I believe, was unnecessary in this friendly context. You don’t need to apologize for anything, I agree, and neither do I. My culture has nothing to do with it. My culture is something I’m convinced you can never understand where you stand. I may be willing to talk to you about it and clarify certain issues, but you seem to stick to your own negative vision about it and to your blind defence of your country’s foreign policy. That’ your right. This can be noticed from your previous posts. For you Arabs and Moslems are all responsible for 9 /11 and The U.S is legitimately fighting back period! This is not true.
We have chosen this exchange to try to meet somewhere at certain common points without need to insult anybody or make anybody abandon their origins or principles and I’ll continue in this direction …
Hi Robin,
I enjoy discussing with you. I’ll be back
Shokran & Marhaba
Tamim,
I never said that Arabs and Muslims were responsible for 911 although you cannot deny that the perpetrators were of that origin. No, I am not blind to the administrations faults. What am I to do. Look for conspiracies like Robin on some website? Believe that we are purposely positioning our troops in Muslim countries so that we can take their oil. To believe that is to believe that America is evil. I will never believe that. Perhaps some Americans are evil. Tamim, I was not aware that I insulted you either as you indicated in your post. When have I offended you? Quite the contrary, I respect you. Crucify me if you think that I am an ardant supporter of my country. I love America period. This is where my life is right now. What do I gain by disparaging it. You and Robin suggest that I am blind to the administrations policies. Untrue. How can one escape their constant bashing on all the leftist news channels and websites. It is everywhere. All I have been trying to do is be a voice for America since it has become fashionable to bash it. That is all.
Robert Ruiz,
I see no harm in your loving your country and in defending it.On the contrary this is admirable and quite human and natural.Robin loves her country too and is ready to defend it too.the difference is she does not agree with its foreign policy and thinks ,like me who is a foreigner,and certainly like many Americans that that policy is harmful. the issue is debatable.Who is right? Who is wrong? everything is relative. America is a major actor on the international scene so this exposes its acts to criticism.Senators in the congress do not agree unanimously on every decision made by the government.Some of them sometimes even take radical positions.That is part of the rules of democracy.The other day tv showed a young American lady during a press conference shouting at Ramsfield and protesting against war in Iraq.She was immediately taken out of the room, may be imprisoned, I don't know,but that scene gives the world a positive image of freedom of expression and democracy.How can America preach Democracy if it doesn't practice its rules? And democracy is freedom of speech and opinion.I think in a democracy this is more sacred and untouchable than a government.A government is voted by the people and can be corrected or even removed by the poeople not only reelected.I myself, for instance, in my own third world country where democracy is making its way ,would not accept lessons of patriotism from anyone.Nobody is mor patriotic than the other as far the spirit of democracy is concerned.I'm very tolerant due to my Islamic and Arab culture and have learnt to forgive others and I know christian principles call for forgiveness and tolerance too…
Tamim,
I like you. The view and expressions that you espouse are honorable. Like I said, I have been defending America because our policies have offended many throughout the world. Does that mean that we should be bombed or harmed? I don't think so. We are all responsible for our actions and I suspect that our creator will one day take account of how we acted while in human form. Everyone makes mistakes and perhaps our policy makers have made some. That does not take intent into consideration. Did our policy makers purposely decide to kill innocent people while liberating Iraq and Afghanistan? I really doubt that. Yet critics of our government act as though that is the case. We are a paranoid country and on edge since 911 and so we might be making impulsive decisions that other countries abhor. you'll have to forgive us for that. We are traumatized and terrorized. Attacks on US soil are rare indeed. You can even look at the Patriot Act as evidence of our paranoia and post tramatic stress. President Bush has authorized encroachment into our civil liberties and privacy by doing so to avoid another attack by extremists. There has been much opposition. I personally have nothing to hide so I don't care if the government listens in on my conversations to root out evil doers. Others disagree. That is the nature of democracy.
Robert Ruiz,
"Everyone makes mistakes and perhaps our policy makers have made some." Are you kidding me? Perhaps? Your selective blindness and self-righteousness is really depressing and quite scary.
Looking at the mess in Iraq objectively, it is a FACT that G.W. Bush is a war criminal. In legal philosophies there there is a concept that "ignorance does not exempt" and it doesn't matter whether your law is based on Roman, German, or English law principles.
Regardless of whether the war crimes were commiteed with or without evil intent, it is objective and factual that Bush and his thugs have violated several international laws a.o. the Geneva Conventions (the international agreement about how to make something as uncivilized as war a bit more civilized). Even though I think George War Bush is an ass, he is actually the supreme head of your armed forces and that makes him responsible for US war crimes in Iraq (you may know that orders go down while responsibility go up in an organization).
Anyway, I have a busy day ahead of me, so I will keep it short. I have been in my philosophical mood all morning (maybe because it is Friday) so I have managed to invent a couple of 'proverbs' that I suggest you chew on before you start feeling attacked for being US American:
"Proud, Prouder, Arrogant"
"When Patriotism is polluted with Nationalism then loyalty is transformed into Fascism."
If you still think that "US interests" is a valid justification for treating people and nations of the world as objects of acquisition and that their personal and human rights are negotiable because they are not US Americans, then you should chew some more!
Have a nice day :)
Thomas,
Philosophical today? Actually I am picturing a beautiful American eagle, all puffed up in pride, with a BIG FAT BUTCHER KNIFE! My grandfather was from Denmark, so from a 1/4 Dane to a full Dane: Thanks. I'm just afraid that you might have ruffled some feathers.
Robert,
Come on now, it's nice to like someone, but as a therapist, do you have your clients offer atonement to each other? I have not been back because I saw this arguement diminishing and was glad that was the course it was taking. But IF you do come back, telling Tamim he is harsh and that perhaps it has something to do with his culture was really condescending. So before you start reacting to Thomas, could you please apologize for your statement as one human being to another? I am asking this with true sincerity because I would like the tone of this discussion if it goes further to be fact driven rather than vitriolic. Oh, and BTW, what do you think about the detention camps Halliburton is building? Maybe some of these terrorist suspects here can be housed there. Remember the subject of this site is "Arabs and Moslems are NOT terrorists".
Thomas,
You are so self-righteous. Why should I expect anything else. You are just another Bush basher. Your precious media depicted muslims in cartoons as bafoons and many people died because of it.
Before you go pointing the finger look in your back yard first.
Robin,
Tamim characterized me as the "ugly American" and you said nothing. Obviously you have allied yourself with him so you look the other way. Whatever.
Thomas,
You call others arrogant! Look in the mirror and chew on this!
Robert,
The only person here who used the term "ugly American" was yourself in your post #98. You said this after Tamim's #97 which stated, "some people fail to be good ambassadors of their country". You are so darn worked up you are attributing your own statement to him. But since it was you who said it, you can own it!
Haitham,
I'm afraid we are all violating your comments policy so if you zap us I understand. Apologies from one human to another.
Robert,
That's not true. I never characterized you as the " Ugly American " Come and visit Morocco and you will see our hospitality and our respect for foreigners. Nobody will call you anything. But don't expect everybody to grasp your theory of national Interest and strategy and national security to justify the damage and harm done by America in Iraq.We in Morocco too were victims of terrorist attacks on May 16 2003 in 5 different public places in CASABLANCA killing 40 inocent Moroccan people and injuring about a hundred others.
Have a nice afternoon
Hi Robin,
Hi Robert,
Well I think Robert apologized in his own way by saying he likes me! Isn't that enough? But I'm sure it will not take him long before getting furious at me again! as he can't help it when America is criticized.
Tamim,
Perhaps you are correct, I'll give him that. But I personally don't like it when people try to weasel out of an apology by making an "I" statment and trying to get on someone's good side without admitting what they did wrong. "I" learned this in therapy myself and that's precisely why it's bugging the heck out of me. Yes he is furious, but we can thank Thomas for that for pointing out some more errors of Robert's rationalle. Any hoooo, here we go again.
Tamim,
No I will not get worked up. Honestly, if you knew me personally you would be surprised. I am harmless, kinds and altruistic. My life work is dedicated to helping people overcome debilitating psychological illnesses. It is alright to criticize America. I am used to that. However, I don't have to sit around and take it. I am simply being passionate about my beliefs. Sometimes I like to push other people's buttons to get a reaction. I am not a lot of things that I have perhaps led you all to believe. Tamim, I simply indicated that your comment about me being a bad ambassador for the US was full of suggestion that I was the "ugly arrogant American" that believes we can do not wrong. How many times have I not said that perhaps we have made many mistakes as a country. Who hasn't? Who is willing to cast the first stone? You would be a hypocrite if you did so. Robin, there is no need to tell Haitham that we are out of line. C'mon, please! Haitham knows that the discussion here is passionate and no one has stepped out of line. That is your perception and you are entitled to it. So, Tamim we have done damage to Iraq right! That again is your perception. We have done a lot of good also. But this is precisely my point. America is depicted as invaders and bullies. Do we ever get credit for doing anything right. I suppose Afghanistan is worse off now. Afghanistan is a democratic country now and people have more rights than ever before. It is a country in transition and America is doing what the rest of the world won't. We are improving lives for many. Iraq will eventually get there and you will all eat crow. Not literally Tamim so don't be upset. By the way, I like the way you address me compared to others. You always dialogue with respect and are not condescending. I appreciate that.
Robin,
Please! Don't start suggesting now that I am a weasel or that I am insincere regarding Tamim. You don't like the fact that Tamim suggested that I had apologized. You want to continue to ambush me and be negative. Stop already. You will never achieve the mother Teresa status if you continue in that vein. It seems that early on you portrayed yourself as some peaceful person with some "why can't we all just get along and understand each other theme." You true colors have manifested. I have nothing to admit to regarding doing something wrong either. What are you talking about. Go buy some sniffing salts. You need clarity here.
Robert,
In order to understand eachother, should we not first understand ourselves. That goes for our "self" as a nation.
"Done damage to Iraq, that is your perception". Would you please recognize the 180,000 dead Iraqi's, their country on the brink of civil war, Abu Gharib, their infrastructure in shambles" and not refer to it as "perception" Would you please realize that your opinion in this matter is the minority opinion in the whole wide world including Iraq who really know themselves better than you do. Would you please get educated and vote per your beliefs, something you admit you do not do (vote). And would you please stop throwing insults such as the "sniffing salts" statement. Talk facts Robert, not what you believe we are as America. Thomas was absolutely right when he said"When patriotism is polluted with nationalism then it becomes fascism". This is a statement straight out of Poli-sci 101.
Robin,
So now you are saying that the US is responsible for all those dead Iraquis. There you go again disparaging America. You should go cleanse yourself of your Americanism because you are obviously infected and ashamed. How many people did Saddam's government destroy? We should allow those people to continue under that dictatorship. Have you not heard the testimony of Iraquis at his trial? Blame America all you want. We are the only country courageous enough to do something to liberate those people. So yes Robin——-PERCEPTION! You have your way of spinning things and I have mine. I look at the big picture, you choose to judge instead. I know the freaken facts Robin so stop acting like you are the only one that has clarity. Get off your pulpit already. You sound just like Tomas–arrogant and condescentding.
Robert,
Are you suggesting that because Saddam Hussein murdered his own citizens, that it is also okay for the US to do so?
And do you seriously think that the reason Bush went to war was to liberate the Iraqi people? Wow!
I know that the Bush administration doesn't believe in government transparency, but that doesn't mean that you should sit back and accept it. If anything, you should demand the truth and accountability even more.
If the US wanted liberation for the Iraqis, they would have done so by giving them security, justice, law and order, and a government that had power, morals, and knowledge. They would have gone there saying "We want to get rid of Saddam Hussein because we care for the Iraqi people" instead of hiding under the veil of supposed "weapons of mass destruction."
Instead, your soldiers were told to treat every Iraqi as if they are a terrorist. They raided peoples' houses at night and threw them in jails without any questions being asked. Without charging them with anything. Then, on top of it all, they tortured and humiliated them.
If you were able to ask questions, you would see that these weren't a few "bad" soldiers who committed these crimes, these actions were endorsed and approved by Donald Rumsfeld himself.
I know you love your country and refuse to question its actions. However, I'm guessing that one of the reasons you love America so much is because of all the rights and freedoms you have based on the principles of democracy. This is precisely why you should demand answers from the current administration because they are turning the America you love so much into a nation of terrorizers.
And by the way, why is it that an American citizen such as Robin can't stand up and say that she doesn't agree with the war without being called and an America Hater or a Bush Basher? I thought the US was a democracy not a fascist state.
America didn’t liberate Iraqis from tyranny as America didn’t care about the way Iraqis were treated. Kurds were massacred in Northern Iraq by Saddam’s Regime but why did America wait until Saddam’s Army invaded Kuwait to defend the Kurds?
Iraq was better off under Saddam’s Regime than under American military regime. It was a strong and politically stable country with a healthy economy. Now chaos is reigning. I’d rather live in a free country under a dictatorship than live under the occupation of an army raising the slogan of freedom and democracy. How can there be any freedom under army control? This is a huge responsibility America has to assume. I agree with you ,Thomas, “Orders go down and responsibility goes up” .
Tamim,
Iraq is in transition. Do you think that Iraq is going to become a democratic government overnight? Things take time. If you think that the Iraqis were better under Saddam then we are diametrically different in our views. There was more chaos under Saddam because people lived in fear, had to vote at their own peril, were tortured and controlled. Please Tamim, be reasonable. Families were taken out of their homes and tortured or never seen again-whole families! Dena suggested that our soldiers took people out of their homes without charging them etc. I agree that we did some of that and those people were imprisoned for doing so. We were accountable for our actions. To characterize all of America as evil because some of our soldiers acted nefariously is unjust. How soon we forget what Saddam was doing to his people and allowing his sons to do also. Have you not heard of the rapes and murders his sons were allowed to perpetrate? Yea, lets sweep all of that under the rug. We are pouring billions of dollars into Iraq to rebuild it. It would have been easier to just leave and let the Iraqis rebuild themselves. We have not abandoned them and we won't.
Since my statement, "It is so hard being an American these days" sparked this debate which has nothing to do with the topic even though the topic is integrated, I will state why I believe this way:
It is hard to be an American when I see our foreign policy go amok. As an American with a personal dog in this subject, I will say that since my ex-inlaws whom I love dearly are in Saudi Arabia next door to this havoc we have wrought, I am mortified by the pandora's box we have opened by our invasion of Iraq. The instability which we have created in this area of the world is apparent. As an American, I seek to educate myself to the affects of our policy, listen to those we have affected, and make my own judgement in the matter. As an American I seek to avoid war rather than engage in pre-emptive warfare sold to my fellow Americans with lies. As an American I seek to make bridges to other cultures and people in a peaceful and respectful manner. As an American I seek to change our policy by peaceful demonstration and voting. As an American, I will honor our Constitution and it's values. As an American I will not choose to endorse invasion of my freedom in the quise of Homeland Security. I wish to speak on overseas calls in private, not because I have something to hide, but as an American this is my right. As an American I will excercise my right of free speech and fight for that right for others. I will not say that our soldiers in Iraq are defending my free speech because that is a lie served up as an excuse. As an American I will say freely that I feel my country's values are being destroyed by current policy. As an American it is my right and duty to bring light to injustices both at home and abroad. I will not support American business interests disquised as "spreading democracy" And finally, it is hard to be an American when my fellow Americans blindly support the evil being perpetrated.
Robert Ruiz,
I guess I should have known that you would choke on my message.
I have looked in the mirror as you asked me to, and I did not recognize the self-righteousness you accuse me of. I am not saying that I have never made mistakes, because I used to be arrogant, but I have corrected that so now I am perfect ;)
Is your problem that I am bashing the Bush instead of beating around it? Sorry, but I am just calling a shit for a shit and a shovel for a shovel. I do NOT criticize the Bush because of his looks, his job position, or his citizenship. I criticize the Bush based on his actions; the war crimes committed under his leadership.
What I find really interesting in your nationalistic patriotism is that you seem to get more worked up over that I criticize your 'Führer' and his actions than over that I call you an UGLY AMERICAN. I have not spelled it out until now, because I wanted to give you a chance to prove me wrong in suspecting you to be a Fascist. Before you accuse me of being an 'America Hater', let me emphasize that I do not consider you to be a Fascist because of your US citizenship, but because you are displaying a national superiority complex dangerously close to what destroyed Europe not very long ago.
"blah blah the US is the greatest democracy blah blah US interests blah blah better off under US leadership blah blah blah" just sounds too close to "Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles" (Germany, Germany above all else)!
I do not believe that I have to feel guilty about the atrocities that Europeans have brought to the world through history, but I cannot write off my guilt if I do nothing while it is happening around me. It is my responsibility as a human being to speak up against the inhumanity of Fascism and I do so regardless of whether I am talking to an Ugly American like you, an Ugly Dane, an Ugly Muslim, or any other ugly person who believes in racial, religious, or national superiority.
I know that I cannot change the world, but if I am just a bystander then I am as much to blame as if I had taken part.
Robin, Thomas,
This is an exercise in futility. You guys like to say I blindly follow, that I am a fascist etc. blah, blah, blah. Robin you are ashamed to be an American. That is fine, go live elsewhere. No malice intended but if we are as bad as you project and we are evil then go elsewhere. We don't need you here. Yes, you have a right to dissent as a human and American. You obviously have a problem with your conscience about the evil that your country has perpetrated. Go live amongst Muslims and be happy. I am not being mean spirited. I am serious. It would be awful if you had to live among evil doers and be subjected to infringements upon your civil liberties and freedoms. Do us all a favor and go live elsewhere. Was that mean? I didn't intend it to be. It is sickening to hear your anti-American rhetoric. You need to check yourself and decide where your allegiance is. Oh yea, your allegiance is to the truth and only you know what the truth is. Tomas, I don't know what to make of you. You certainly sound intelligent but not arrogant since you were able to shake it somehow. Can't we all just get along? Robin, if it is so hard to be an American then lose the citizenship and renounce it. The majority of Americans would be shocked to hear that it is hard to be an American. It is the easiest thing in the world Robin! Get over it. Tomas, now you accuse me of having a nationalistic superior attitude. Wow! I am a fascist! You are some bomb thrower. Are you sure you are not a terrorist. You are terrorizing me with such venum, which makes you a terrorist does it not? Am I being sarcastic? Perhaps. Am I being silly, you bet. Did I make my point? You decide.
Thomas,
As in the past, you have said it better than I could. Although there is absolutely no need to say thank you, I do.
"As an American" I am scared of what is going on around me. Our country has done bad things in the past as well as good. But the fascism which is being brought to bare on me as an American citizen is absolutely frightening. My bi-cultural daughter would flog me for being so public about my feelings. Maybe I am naive, but I hope we're not quite to the point where I am in jeopady of doing so, but surely nearing the brink. "As humans" we must call a spade a spade, if we are to remain humane. It's not Bush the cowboy that scares me, he is so utterly inane. It's those behind him and their goals, the neo-cons. They are here destroying anything even our supposed nationalism should stand for. Waving flags, shouting hurrah, for what? God, it's like it's fourth of July in the Twilight Zone of Armageddon. I AM scared, and the lemmings jumping off the cliff want me to jump right along with them. NO! Not on my children's heads I will not go!
Remember the original topic? "Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists"? It's also so very hard being an American when fear is used to control my every move. This administration has got me scared all right. But not of terrorism from abroad. It would be like being paralyzed waiting for an earthquake where I live in California where for sure, the BIG ONE is going to come. No I am afraid everyday because they have told me to be, not of the inevitable earthquake, but of those spreading fear themselves. Our country is being "TERRRORIZED" by our own government. God, I must admit I rambled on this one. Apologies.
Robert,
Hear This: I AM NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robin,
I don't want you to go anywhere. Stay right where you are. If the big one is coming in California I suggest you move elsewhere. Perhaps another democratic country would suffice like Afghanistan. That's right, a liberated country on the verge of great things. I wonder who liberated them from the clutches of madness. Oh yea, the US of A. Don't hate, appreciate.
Robert,
You said you like to push buttons, I prefer to communicate in a more civil matter. I have not told you to go anywhere and I do not wish to engage you at that level. I am not going to Afghanistan or any where else you wish me to go so stop please. The topic of this thread is "Arabs and and Moslems are NOT terrorists". I have hundreds of Arab and Moslem friends and family and none of them have ever spoken to me or others in this fashion. I am giving you a chance to redeem yourself, please take advantage of that so that any one reading this is able to see you, an American, in a better light.
Robin,
Please. There you go again retreating to your I am better than you theme so behave like me. I am supposedly acting like a bad American but you are the one that has a hard time being one. I am simply calling you out on it Robin. If you can't stand being one then don't be one. I am not blind to our deficiencies but I would rather support our government and give them the benefit of the doubt than disparage it like you. Ok, Arabs and Muslims are not terroists. What else is there to talk about. Any rational person would agree to that. Some Arabs and some Muslims are terrorists and that would be more accurate. I cannot get to you or push your button unless you allow me to. You are always in control if you exercise your power. Remember that in therapy?
I tried Folks.
Robin,
You are giving me a chance to redeem myself as thought I need redemption. Come down from the pulpit and quit preaching to me. Stop! I don't care about how others seem me Robin. Therefore I need not conform to how you believe I should act or sound. My mind reacts to postings directed at me and if you don't like it them don't respond. I believe that I am civil. My reactions perhaps disturb you because I have been very hard on you regarding your harsh bashing of our country/government. You try to make a distinction between our government meaning Bush and the country as a whole or our ideals. However, our government represents our country. One is tied to the other. Disagree? Thatis ok. You see, I don't blindly support our government as you suggest. You have allied yourself with supposed knowledgeable people from around the globe against the US and that is fine. I will not assist others in diminishing my country. That is the difference between you and I. Muslims are not terrorists. I agree.
I tried folks! Come on down from your high horse already.
Polisci 101: First Amendment of the US Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;or of the right of the people peacefully to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
No where in this beautiful Constitution of ours does it grant the right of our government to deport a citizen for exercising free speech. No Robert, the government is "Of the people, by the people". When we exercise our right to vote we elect officials who are members of the govenment which represent us. These representatives are not our country, they are PEOPLE who are charged with the duties of protecting citizens from harm, whether it be external or internal. The government/representatives is in a state of flux vis a vis the election process. When citizens do not agree with the government they are NOT attacking our country, they are attacking the individuals in charge of protecting us. The government, which is not our country, is not your child worthy of your unconditional love as you suggested in a prior post. The government is something with which you have the Constitional right to agree or disagree in peaceful fashion.
What you are espousing is nationalism which again is not our country but rather this: (Websters dictionary)the sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations. Nations are a rather new phenomenon in the history of the world. Prior to nations we had empires which sought to expand, whereas nations sought to set boundaries in order to encapsule a territory with shared culture. Nationalism is what you are espousing, not love of your country but that your country is better than all others. Without denying whatsoever (myself) that we are a great nation, I do not choose to espouse nationalism because it is "oppositional" to the status of other nations. Many scholary books have been written on this subject and the problems which ensued when nations were formed.
Maybe this might be an analogy for you: The Catholic Church sees itself as the guardian of Christianity. The Church has representatives in the clergy which change with time. Currently we are seeing a disaster within the clergy with the priest sex abuse cases. Can I still love my church (I am Catholic) and still hate the actions of the clergy, it's representative. Should the clergy be brought to justice or should I love my church with "nationalistic" fervor and see no wrong? I hope you know the answer and understand the analogy. I would appreciate it very much if you choose to respond in a polite fashion.
In addition:
Within memory our country experienced another time of great misery, the Watergate affair. In this case, our president, Nixon and his minion committed crimes which wrought havoc on our nation. Nixon was NOT our country, nor was our military who was bombing the hell out of Viet Nam. Both Nixon and our military WERE representatives of our county who both found themselves in a position of massive protest from our citizens. You know what happened, I need not repeat it here. At the time, there were those who protested greatly about the policy of the administration. They were maligned by "nationalists" who thought that to tear down the administration was to tear down our country. History absolved the protestors of any guilt in expressing their grievances. Since we cannot foretell what the future holds, we cannot know how history will judge our present actions. But we do know that in the case of Nixon and the Viet Nam War history absolved the dissenters. I and others have chosen to dissent and it is our right. You may disagree, but you may not slander us as a voice of protest or suggest that we do not love our country because as alreaddy explained clearly, our government is not our country.
Robin,
I will respond in a polite fashion. First of all, I was not espousing nationalism because as my good buddy Tomas suggested it would lead to fascism. I am not that. My rhetoric was simply to stand up for our country that is much maligned everywhere I go. You have focused greatly on what is wrong with our country. I have done the opposite and have tried to point it out. No Robin, I do not think that our country is above other countries. You are putting words in my mouth to make me sound arrogant. I love the diversity. At one point in my life I travelled profusely and thoroughly enjoyed other cultures. Once I even considered staying forever in one of those foreign countries because I became so enamored with it. I apologize if I have been combative Robin but I am fed up with the anti-American movement. The people voted this administration in twice not once. As you know, I was not a part of it. I don't for a minute suggest that one should support this government no matter what. Protest is a part of our culture and right. You made an excellent analogy with the Nixon administration and the Catholic church. By the way, I was raised a catholic but no longer am. I support your dissent Robin. All I ask is that you be more balanced. I will admit that this administration has made many unpopular decisions if you admit that this country is a model for all to emulate on paper. Humans tend to screw things up because they are fallible. Tomas compared Bush to Hitler as he called him our fuhrer. Nobody came to our president's defense. I am not going to sit around while my country is disparaged unfairly. That is not nationalism. Was that more polite? I hope so.
Haitham,
I acknoledge fully that we have strayed from our original topic.
I apologize for that, but if you can hang in there for a moment, I would like to say something I would like your readers to see.
With your permission I will say the following.
Robert,
I don't wish to disagree with you any further. Instead I myself am going to stray from this topic with you.
America is for the most part seen as a shining beacon of democracy by others around the world. However, this view does NOT negate the harm that our past and present policies have caused to other nations. Many people do not like discussing history with a "get over it attitude". Many Americans also will defend their "country" without recognizing our faults to foreigners. This is viewed as arrogance by many foreigners who have been the recipients of our "government's" meddling in their affairs. If you have travelled to any countries in the MiddleEast you would know that they are the most hospitable people on earth. They recognize our "country" for the freedom's it espouses but hate our "government" for our past policies. Our utter defence of Israel without a fair and balanced view of the Palestinian issue is the prime reason for their hatred of our "government". However, on a personal level they would welcome you, Robert, in an open-arm fashion.
Now I am going to say something else that is probably going to upset you again. They want us to KNOW what our governmant has done and be utterly cognizent of that. I gave you Israel as an example but the same goes for other country's who our CIA or business interests have meddled with. What people are referring to as the "ugly American" is NOT that our ideals are wrong but RATHER that our policies are wrong. They also view the type of statements that you have been making in defense of our country as ignorant (because you are not recognizing their plight) and offensive (because it is dismissive of their opinion). Now I would like you to take my following statements and patiently understand that my "tone" is sincere and not condescending to you.
Please do not continue to defend our country with the words you have been using. Do not be as defensive as you have been because it is really rather Offensive to others. Robert, to set the story straight, I love my "country" dearly, it's laws it's people. Please do not continue to portray yourself negatively because you ARE an ambassador in this forum where we are discussing topics with people of other countries. With that said, I truly hope you understand what I am trying to say to you.
Take care
Robin,
Fine. But you are condescending and treating me like some idiot in your post. That I abhor! You want me to watch my tone and you accuse me of being dismissive of other countries and their plight. I never said that. Again, you are putting words into my mouth and making me sound arrogant. Go back a read your post. You insinuate a lot Robin about what I said or believe. You keep suggesting that I am making Americans look bad. You are not the only person that has travelled and has a pulse on world affairs. Only our government has done harm? Where is your balance. I have been calling for it. Only our CIA has infringed. The KGB has done nothing. See what I mean? You give America a compliment and then you slap it again with we are evil and have done evil rhetoric. Everyone knows America meddles and has harmed others to some extent. So have they. That is all I am saying Robin.
Arrogance and the feeling of superiority in politics lead to catastrophe. The U.S leaders behave in a non democratic arrogant way as the unbeatable force and give themselves the right to make one sided decisions in world affairs. They feel threatened and targeted by world terrorism and take that threat as an excuse to fight ‘evil’ everywhere with disregard to borders and other countries sovereignty. People who hate America do so because America hates them or because they tasted America’s oppression and injustice. America is not governed by infallible supermen. Its leaders are humans who can do wrong. And indeed they did much wrong. They used prohibited weapons in Iraq against Saddam’s Republican Army. They killed thousands of innocent civilians in air raids in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are at work now tearing up the unity of Iraq. If anyone feels uneasy about the spreading of hatred against America they must objectively try and associate that hatred with America’s unjust and cruel wars in different parts of the world. It’s not only the “bad Press” that says it; it is people themselves suffering from America’s oppression and violence. It’s easy to say I’m looking for peace while making war.
Tamin,
Very well said. You are probably not going to believe I am going to ask you this question, but which illegal weapons are you referring to? I read about a weapon that sort of like lights up the sky and that has fallout. Is that it? I don't want to be unaware.
Robert,
You listened but I am afraid you did not "hear". Using "Fine" as an introduction to a post infers tone again that I am not liking. very much. I am NOT treating you like an idiot I am attempting to hold a respectful dialog with you. The KGB is not a part of our discussion here and would be straying even further. But since you brought it up let me use it as another example. In the Cuban missile crisis, the USSR was threatening our nation. What would you have thought of a Russian who continued to defend their "country" with ardour you are exemplifyiung without recognizing that their "government" was threatening us. This IS a nationalistic attitude in this example and so is yours. We are discussing America an it's policies in this forum and that is all. We are not whatsoever saying America is the only country doing wrong. But remember Robert, the bigger the toad, the more the warts.
To say one more thing about the KGB analogy,
If that same Russian was saying "our country is wonderful, yeah maybe we have made some mistakes but we're GREAT and all you people are Kruschev bashers" what would you think of that person?
Would you have respect and say surely he knows his own country so it must BE great or would you think that person doesn't know what the heck he's talking about? No I am not comparing the USSR to our great nation I am comparing attitude to attitude. Would you respect this person more than a person who says our GOVERNMENY is acting in an aggressive manner towards other nations and for that I dissent? Please Robert, for the sake of analogy, see what I am trying to say. I am not treating you like an idiot, I am trying very hard to talk to you.
Just one more thing about your "fine" statement,
I am going to have to use some profainity so please excuse me.
In therapy whenever this is said this is what I heard back from the therapist: F-I-N-E means "fucked up,insecure, neuroitic" and I forget what the E stands for. That is why I find your introduction of "Fine" as sending a message of dismissiveness to me on your part and also perhaps saying something about your own feelings. Maybe I AM taking your opening words out of context and I truly hope I am. Remember "Arabs and Moslems are NOT terrorists" but unfortunately not EVERYONE agrees which was how this whole conversation started out. Again apologies to Haitham for digressing.
Robin,
Yes, you did take my "fine" out of context. I meant it as ok. Therefore, I was agreeing with you to be more civil and to adjust my tone. Anyway, I completly agree that our administration is arrogant. I am not a Bush fan by the way. Shocked? I quite frankly will be pleased when his term is up. Change is good and we do need some change with more inclusive policies. Our president it could also be argued has lost the media war by not holding enough press conferences to explain many of his unpopular decisions. Our own press has hammered him repeatedly and no that is not patriotic. When Sheehan protested at his ranch she was not unpatriotic. It is our right which makes the US unique. You can call Bush an idiot and you won't get arrested. I was simply trying to play the devil's advocate so that this discussion could have some balance. I know that I incurred the wrath of many, and I am not retreating, but I felt it was necessary. I have heard loud and clear from all of you that our policies stink. I understand that. Consider that our policies are not made by one person so to isolate Bush and blame him for everything is unjust. The congress has much to say about what is approved or not and the people. The people voted this administration in or the majority. Many have been seething since Bush took office and he has done a lot of good for this country. Our economy is booming and that in the end is how Americans vote-with their pocket. Unfortunately they don't always vote with their conscience. Chow!
ROBIN,
Enhanced uranium was used in muntion used in Iraq before the invasion and this exposed many Iraqi civilians and US marines to radiation and later on to serious health problems.
Robin,
I congratulate you for making Robert make a confession in his last post to say he has been kidding and that he was just playing the devil's advocate!
Robert
You comfort me as long as you continue the discussion with your real opinion.
Robert,
THANK YOU. Sincerely thank you. You play the devil's advocate well and I will take you at your word on that one. Since you say it's ok to call Bush an idiot, I will. Bush IS an idiot and he is too stupid to have thought this one up on his own. It's the neo-con agenda which has used him as a figurehead. That's why I suggested you research PNAC, it's a think tank which has been the primary policy maker for this administration and it's members are all politicians, media, fundamentalists and various other top ranking Republicans. It really is not a conspiracy theory at all so please don't think I'm a fruitcake. As for Bush being elected, some of us think he was "selected" by the Supreme Court the first time and it is a fact that Kerry won the popular vote in the second election but Bush won the electorial vote. That's why some of us are so DARN PISSED OFF. As for voting, yes I will be at those Democratic phone banks at the lead up to the election and also be attending my Democratic Club functions that I have. Robert, if I can make a friendly suggestion to you, please register and vote. It is your right as an American and one of the things you should be so proud of, don't waste it. Thanks again for the banter, you made me get out my old text books for the sake of the arguement, something I should do more often. Could you humor me with one thing? What does the "E" stand for, I always forget. Ciao!!
Tamim,
Oh my God, I did not know that. Where can I find the information? Thanks for your comment to. See ya!
Robert,
I missed a very important point in my prior post. MOST politicians are idiots. Remember, I taught government to high school honors students and I had to keep my mouth shut on that one as I taught my students to respect our democracy. Even Democrats are idiots, just I prefer their philosophy better, although their "representatives" have certainly not given their party an unblemished name. Darn, it IS hard being an American learning all this stuff!!!!
Robin,
Here is some information for you:
The US used 190 000 tons of Enriched uranium in different regions of Iraq. It also left 40 tons of radioactive debris that remained from enriched uranium weapons killing hundreds of thousands Iraqis. American experts now testify that the quantity of radioactive debris in Iraq is estimated at 300 tons. This caused the birth of Iraqi children with birth deformation. The US army dropped more than 50 000 enriched uranium bombs and rockets from planes. 110 000 air raids dropping 88 000 tons of different sorts and shapes of bombs which is equivalent to 7 times the force of Hiroshima.
More than 900 enriched uranium shells were shot in Iraq which caused thousands Iraqis to suffer from blood cancer and unidentified diseases. The number of bombs dropped reached 141931 bombs.(translated from Arabic)
http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat_mukhtara/arabic/0505/fatlawi_010505.htm
See also http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-07/17/article03.shtml
Tamim & Robin,
First of all Tamim, Robin did not make me do anything. Anything I do is a choice controlled by me. That is psychology 101. No one makes anyone feel or act unless they themselves choose it. No offense taken. Just wanted to point that out.
Robin I do not invest in the leadership of man so it is useless for me to vote. I always say that since I served my country in the armed forces I have earned the right not to vote. I do not subscribe to the brainwashing that my civics class encouraged. The "your vote can make a difference." I do not care. I am on a spiritual journey of enlightenment. It is my desire to use my energies on that rather than politics which is full of deception. My time will be better utilized improving my person and increasing my wisdom. Doesn't that sound so unamerican and yet I have been so passionate about the US? If it were up to me and it is actually I would go live in India and become a Yogi. I am a voracious reader of enlightened beings such as Krishnamurti, Paramahansa Yogananda, Thich Naht Hahn and others. My journey in human form is short and I want to spend it getting ready for the spirit world. This world shall pass and I don't want to invest too much time with ego driven strivings.
Robert,
Okey Dokey. Good luck on your journey!
Robin,
Okay Dokey? What does that mean. I am disappointed in your response. Did I strike a nerve? Are we suddenly disconnected. I knew we would be. Suddenly you realize that what you thought was so important to me and is to you is totally different. I threw you a curve ball. Sorry. You did not see it coming. I am serious though. Enjoy your ego driven goals Robin. I am off to a different goal. Investing your time in governments and voting is an exercise in futility Robin. May I suggest something to you. Don't waste your time on the democratic party and voting. All conditions are temporary and I think you can do much better with your time. I wish you luck although I don't believe in it. We create our own circumstances therefore luck. You are on the wrong journey if I may be so bold. This world is temporary so it is a waste to gorge yourself with human ego driven strivings. Sorry.
Tamim,
I tried your sites you suggested above, the first was in Arabic so I couldn't read it but am sure some of the readers here can. The second site was absolutely eye opening. Then I started a search of my own. I simply Googled, depleted uranium bombs used in Iraq. There it was, a long list of articals. The first I opened was projectcensored. I went down the list to see the information is readily available, but certainly not here in the US unless someone is looking for the topic, which of course since we are unaware, we are notlooking.
EVERYONE: the title of this thread is "Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists. I suggest the title should be extended to, but the USA is. Is this a widely known fact in Europe and the mideast? Has it been brought to the UN? Is it an act of illegal warfare per the Geneva Convention? Why is this not known here? Media blackout, sure that could be said. But if Tamim knew this, why didn't I know? With all the internet conversation going on and people traveling back and forth, why is this not being talked about here. This is utterly distressing to me "as an American".
If it is being talked about on say Air America or NPR why has it been shrugged off? This is serious stuff folks and it literally scares the hell out of me.
Everyone,
I just googled, "depleted uranium and cluster bombs-weapons that keep on killing" It is the first site at the top of Google and has many links to this subject
Robin,
There you go again looking for dirt on the US. You want to change the title of this dialogue to "Muslims are Not Terrorist but the US is." Enough already, this is disgusting. Shame on you! Again, don't waste your time trying to ally yourself with US haters. Learn more about God, to be compassionate, serve the poor and underpriviledged. Do something worthy of note so that you may gain favor with the most high. Let God be the judge. Obviously he has blessed America like no other nation. Therefore, God must be an American. By the way, the Dallas Cowboys are God's team also.
Tamim,
Am I to understand that the mysterious "gulf war syndrome" from the first gulf was was caused by these bombs? Is this not a crime on our military's part perpetrated it's own military. In our rush to use our "Big Stick" we used small nuclear weapons on a country we were supposedly invading to get rid of WMDs. Could someone please explain the logic in this to me. Perhaps our hospital corporations and pharmaceutical companies can step in and help all those Iraqui children born with birth defects due to our dirty bombs. Boy, what a windfall for us. We don't just get the credit for SPEADING DEMOCRACY, we also get the credit for our humanitarianism in helping all those innocent children. I am so glad we can help out where needed.
Can someone out there knock some sense into Robin since she is now playing the silent treatment game with me. Obviously I am in the minority when it comes to this dialogue. Oh my God, it's a conspiracy. The US has used dirty bombs and poor Iraqis children were harmed etc. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah!
Can anybody enlighten me As a non American,who doesn't hate America,about the way we can qualify a strong leader of a strong country who sends his troops into a distant land accused of detaining mass destruction weapons threathening the world community, without telling them that the weapons they are using are not conventional weapons and without allowing them at least to take safety precautions to protect themselves, if we presume that they agree about using mass destruction weapons that are internationally banned.A war Hero or a war criminal?
Read this extract from SUNDAY HERALD
( http://www.sundayherald.com/32522 )
“ Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project — a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defence with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up — said use of DU was a 'war crime'. Rokke said: 'There is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction — yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'Such double-standards are repellent.' ”“The Pentagon has admitted that 320 metric tons of DU were left on the battlefield after the first Gulf war, although Russian military experts say 1000 metric tons is a more accurate figure.” By Neil Mackay, Investigations Editor SUNDAY HERALD 30 March 2003
If the US did as the report indicated then the US and its leaders should be castigated. The US cannot have it both ways and it explains the backlash in the international community against the US. I have been enlightened a great deal in these correspondences and am grateful. Having said that, we more than the sum of several poor decisions by military leaders and government. There is the balance this discussion so desperately needs.
It is up to the American citizenry to take back our Great nation and to stop the violence we are perpetrating against other countries. We start with our own simple vote, the most precious gift we are given. But having said that, one must vote with absolute complete knowledge of WHAT we are voting for. Do NOT only be concerned with helping in your immediate neighborhood. Yes, that is where we should ALL be helping. Food banks, homeless, unwed mothers….the list goes on. But be aware that as a citizen of the world as well as your own country you must also speak out against injustice. Give to those in need who your own government's policy has harmed. Be sympathetic as well as empathetic as a HUMAN. Recognize good, and condemn evil. Do everything you can to promote the universal good that our creator, of whatever faith has charged us with doing.
Robin,
Why are you so surprised that the US Army has used chemical weapons in Iraq? As many people already know, the US was not there to look for Saddam's WMDs. They were there for different reasons all together.
Your government lied to you and everyone knows it now. However, it seems that Americans don't care. They care more if their president had an affair with an intern and lied about it. They would rally for his impeachment then. But, they couldn't care less if their president lies to them about a third world nation having WMDs. Sends his own citizens their to fight this false war. And they come back in body bags. In fact, the way they punish a president such as this is to re-elect him, thereby, continuing to inflict him on the rest of the world.
I honestly don't know if Europe, the mideast, or the UN know about this. But even if they did, do you really think that they have the guts to stand up to the number one super power in the world? I certainly don't.
Dena,
I am not whatsoever surprised, I simply did not know. It's readily available on the internet like I said, but our media is SO biased that it is very difficult to find this out. Tamim let me know and I immediately researched it. I know you know about our media, but Dena, it is next to IMPOSSIBLE for us to get any news here that is anti-USA unless it is showing one of our embassies being attacked. Now that IS big news. I am absolutely horrified by this information I found out and I would not put ANYTHING past our neocon government. But then as a student of history I can't just blame everything on them. What about our meddling in Latin America at the behest of United Fruit. What about Johnson fabricating the Gulf of Tonkin to justify the Viet Nam war? Dena, please don't take me for someone who is simply surprised, I am trying very hard to catch up and I'm using my computer in my kitchen to try to find more out WHATEVER it is I don't know from my media here. Peace
Dena,
I failed to adress your last question. No I do not think they would stand up. The UN has been castigated by us and we don't care what they say anyway. Just as one human being (myself) to you I am feeling demoralized by this knowledge I have gained. I am powerless, utterly powersless and demoralized. I do NOT like being a citizen of a country with a "BIG STICK" or as I prefer to call it a BIG BUTCHER KNIFE. But no matter where I would hail from everyone is looking the other way. I'm sure I'll be hearing from one of my fellow Americans for this statement but I hope YOU can understand how I am feeling because this message is from me to you.
We are not powerless ever. One has the power to live elsewhere if they cannot stomach being from a country with a BIG BUTCHER KNIFE. Don't be demoralized by man's agenda. What did exercising one's right to vote get the US and the world(thanks for pointint that out Dena) afterall. Perhaps voting is overrated. I for one is optimistic that things will change for the better. The US will pull out of Iraq within two years hopefully sooner and Iraq will become democratic. A new US president will be elected, no thanks to me of course, and things will improve. Hang in there my fellow Americans. Our reputation will soon improve and wrongs will be righted. Hasta pronto.
Robin,
You ask:
"EVERYONE: the title of this thread is “Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists. I suggest the title should be extended to, but the USA is. Is this a widely known fact in Europe and the mideast? Has it been brought to the UN? Is it an act of illegal warfare per the Geneva Convention? Why is this not known here? Media blackout, sure that could be said. But if Tamim knew this, why didn’t I know? With all the internet conversation going on and people traveling back and forth, why is this not being talked about here. This is utterly distressing to me “as an American”.
If it is being talked about on say Air America or NPR why has it been shrugged off? This is serious stuff folks and it literally scares the hell out of me."
You can thank the "free media" for the broad ignorance of this issue. In the US the "free media" does not mean the same as in Europe, in American English "free" is more like "corporate" or "government propaganda". To be fair, the European media is not completely "uncorporate" either, but they do air pieces on these kind of issues and when European media call a program for a "Report" it means digging deeper into an issue. However, it is as much a question of supply and demand, because as you may have noted Europeans are much more critical of everything and they demand reporting that raises questions and not just reporting that delivers 'ready made' opinions.
In Europe, it is a widely known fact, that Kosovo/Serbia had one of the lowest cancer rates in Europe before depleted uranium (they had the lowest rate of breast cancer if I remember right), but it is not so anymore. I am afraid that the worst of it is yet to come for Iraqis as it takes time for the cancer rates 'to peak'. Leukemia will show up within a year or two, but other forms of cancer will take longer to show up!
In Serbia, which is far smaller than Iraq, the effect is estimated to that 10,000 people will or have died from cancer caused by the use of DU by the US military. Radiation has been measured to be 25% higher than 'normal' in parts of Greece when the wind is coming from Kosovo/Serbia, it has bean measured to be 5-8 times higher in Bulgaria, and in ex-Yugoslavia up to 30 times normal has been measured.
Yes, DU is an act of illegal warfare as per the Geneva Conventions as it is considered a weapon of mass destruction. Other WMD used by the US are cluster bombs as a high number of the bomblets do not explode immediately, but are likely to explode in the hands of children who find threm strewn about. The same thing goes for anti-personel land mines, which in some cases can be justified legally (around a military compound, but only if the area is marked as a minefield and if they are removed when the base is abandoned).
Those 'smart bombs' are also considered WMD when they are used in residential areas. By the way, it seems like the only ones being fooled by 'surgical strikes' is the American public while the rest of us know that bombing a building in a city will cause high number of civilian deaths.
What use will it be to take this to the UN? The UN is not the democratic forum for the world it should be as long as the 'winners of WWII' have veto power. The same undemocratic veto power the US administration has used to block every single Israel-critical resolution would be used to block a resolution going against the US in terms of US war crimes or US use of WMD.
Why are weapons of mass destruction so popular with the US armed forces? Because they are relatively cheap and they keep American casualties down, though at the expense of high 'collateral damage'. By the way, 'collateral damage' is the propaganda way of saying 'men, women, and childred killed indiscriminately despite their civilian and non-combatant status'. Let's call a shit for a shit, because we are talking people here.
Depleted Uranium is much cheaper than Tungsten (the metal with the highest density – it's being used as the glowing thread in light bulbs), so the argument about that "our army needs an effective means of attacking tanks with thick armor" is not a valid argument for DU. DU is not dangerous in its solid form, but when it hits the armor of a tank it is compressed and generates a lot of heat, so the density of the bullet and the incindiary heat allows it to 'cut' through the thick armor. Inside the tank, the crew will most often burn to death before the heat ignites the munitions stored inside the tank. In this whole process the DU 'evaporates' and is being spread everywhere as radioactive dust particles.
Though, the DU used in Kosovo/Serbia only produces a small fraction of the radiation that came from the Chernobyl dissaster, the DU dust is much worse as it is spread through the air (Chernobyl had most of the radiation contained in water and solid matter, so only a very very small amount got 'airborne' as radioactive particles. I don't have the amount in weight, but about 250,000 DU shells 'evaporated' there. Imagine the effects on public health if that amount of say, asbestos powder, was being strewn over one of the smaller states in the US!
Sadly, the US government has spent enough propaganda money to produce scientific studies showing that DU is absolutely safe, so even their own soldiers and other NATO soldiers who operated in Kosovo/Serbia and in Iraq are relatively ignorant about that they run the same risk of dying from cancer as the civilians around them. Let's call it what the propagandist would call it: Friendly fire! But in the form of a time bomb.
I know it is a horrible idea, but sometimes I wish that the US would finally have one of their wars being fought on their own grounds, because then the 'masses' would realize that war is the most destructive way to solve an international conflict and that it is ALWAYS the civilians who suffer the most when 'the big men' decide to go to war against each other. The concept of a clean, tidy, and heroic war is the product of sick minds and has absolutely nothing to do with reality.
Thomas,
Thank you for the information. Quite frankly, I do not know how to respond. I know everything you are saying about our media is absolutely true, that's NOT news to me. I have not been outside the US for about ten years, staying home raising my other two daughters ages nine and sixteen. I have also spent my energies working at a food bank, meals on wheels,PTA, Girl Scouts etc. and basically caring about my own small world while attempting my best to keep abreast of the world and it's politics. I sort of feel like, yeah, I know there's alot of shit going on out there that I need to keep on top of and I'll do my best to do that but my priorities are at home and with my family. As you know I have been on for a while discussing world politics, as I have been able to keep abreast of and from the perspective of my personal past. I read everything to do with politics and world affairs I can get my hands on, in between taking care of housework, my husband the kids and others.
When Tamim first threw this information out, like I told Dena, I was not surprised, I just did not know. But now I'm in the process of disseminating what I have learned and letting it sink in. Quite frankly, the information alone is eating a hole in my stomach. I am sick, truly sick. I want to shout it from my rooftop, but I know what people's reaction will be: SOOOOOO? If we're doing it then it's for a very good reason, and basically, we're America, the most beautiful nation that EVER EVER EVER….was. We're FIGHTING TERRORISM! Witness Robert. Then there are others, my more educated friends who might be politically involved, but would look at me and say, "Robin, calm down, there's not a thing you can do about it". Thomas I CANT do anything about it like I can put a bandaid on my child's knee. I'm rambling, but I thing you know where I am coming from. Just rambling sadness.
Robin,
Damnit, we are in the middle of March and I am still seeing white shit everywhere. I don't like it one bit, so I dress to defy the snow.
What I am saying is, don't despair just get defiant. Challenge authority!
If I had 10 million Euros then my life would be better, because then I could devote more time to fight intolerance and the mono thinkers and I could run marketing campaigns to support the message. I do not have 10 million Euros, so I have to work like an underfunded business and do guerilla marketing by spending some of my time on blogs and by talking to my friends. One cannot swallow an elephant, so taking one bite at the time is the only way forward.
What you and I can do is to find as much information as we can, seek different sources for reliability, and then spread it through our friends, because we have a huge advantage over the corporate media; CREDIBILITY.
If you can convince all your friends that it is important to discuss the topic and if just one or two of them discuss it in their friendship circles as well, then you got a snowball rolling (I knew the white stuff was good for something).
Robert is a pest, but trying to convince him over the Internet is probably a loosing battle, however, if you are 'lucky' enough to run in to a Robert character in the real world and you can sow a seed of doubt, then you have made a difference already.
The mono thinkers may appear to have mass and they have cash, but the rest of us have brains and that's what will make the difference in the long run.
Sure, life's a bitch and then you die. But we might as well try to make a tiny difference while we are here. On a global scale I can only make a very small difference, but for my family and friends I make a big difference. It is all about a positive perspective no matter what happens.
Robin,
Damnit, we are in the middle of March and I am still seeing white shit everywhere. I don't like it one bit, so I dress to defy the snow.
What I am saying is, don't despair just get defiant. Challenge authority!
If I had 10 million Euros then my life would be better, because then I could devote more time to fight intolerance and the mono thinkers and I could run marketing campaigns to support the message. I do not have 10 million Euros, so I have to work like an underfunded business and do guerilla marketing by spending some of my time on blogs and by talking to my friends. One cannot swallow an elephant, so taking one bite at the time is the only way forward.
What you and I can do is to find as much information as we can, seek different sources for reliability, and then spread it through our friends, because we have a huge advantage over the corporate media; CREDIBILITY.
If you can convince all your friends that it is important to discuss the topic and if just one or two of them discuss it in their friendship circles as well, then you got a snowball rolling (I knew the white stuff was good for something).
Robert is a pest, but trying to convince him over the Internet is probably a loosing battle, however, if you are 'lucky' enough to run in to a Robert character in the real world and you can sow a seed of doubt, then you have made a difference already.
The mono thinkers may appear to have mass and they have cash, but the rest of us have brains and that's what will make the difference in the long run.
Sure, life's a bitch and then you die. But we might as well try to make a tiny difference while we are here. On a global scale I can only make a very small difference, but for my family and friends I make a big difference. It is all about a positive perspective no matter what happens.
Robin and Thomas,
Just wanted to let you guys know that you indeed have planted a seed of doubt and I am more open to what the US is guilty of. However, I am not going to spend my life feeling desperate and guilt-ridden like Robin lest I end up in therapy. Thomas you are right. Life is a bitch and then you die but we might as well make a difference while we are here. As per my previous postings, I am doing exactly that as a therapist. I am making a difference in my own way and in my community. I, like Robin, also engage in charitable works and donate my money to worthy causes. Sorry you have such a negative opinion of people like me as you told Robin. You see, you were wrong. The US is a bully and it has acted unjustly with WMDs. It is hard to accept but the truth is the truth.
Furthermore, I think that our time here on earth would be better spent improving our communities, taking care of our children and staying positive. Life is really short and investing too much time in changing our leaders and politicians is futile at best. The whole political arena is infected with deceit and immorality. What is the point of drumming up candidates and listening to their lies about what they will do for you in Washington just to get your vote. I know, I seem to be suggesting that we do nothing. No, that is not the case and apathy will not get it done either. The atmosphere in Washington is partisan politics not what is in the best interest of the American people. We send our chosen representatives to washington to represent us and then they turn into someone else because they games played there pressure you to conform to the party line. Look at what happened to Congressman Mertha. He came out against the war and was labled unpatriotic even though he served as a Marine. It is futile, there has to be a better way to change things. I suspect that we'll have to wait until 2008.
Thomas,
Please don't underestimate me (smiley face). I mentioned NPR and Air America. I also have alot of respect for some anchor men on CNN when respect is due. Yes they are diluted in their reporting but it's a chance I'm going to take. I am preparing to email the information I have learned here to them. I am even going to preface my emails to Air America and NPR with something to this affect, "If I don't here this come up on your program, then I am assuming YOU are a part of this massive coverup and corporate media you eschew" I then am going to talk to my priest whom I love dearly about the matter. I am going to ask him what channels I can take through the Catholic church to get this word out. So far I have been pleased with their moral response to the Iraq war even if I do disagree with them on such issues as birth-control and abortion (for the record I am anti-abortion/pro choice, and no I don't think it's trying to have it both ways) All of this I am going to do between my shift at the food bank, working in my child's classroom as a volunteer, being a member of my school-site council and selling Girl Scout cookies. (not to mention cooking, cleaning, laundry and putting bandaids on my children's boo-boos) After I posted to you my sob story I had to make my daily one hour car-pool trip to take my kids to school. AS I listened to Air America which I do along with NPR it hit me that I was being whiny. I am not a whiny person but I DO have feelings. This is alot of really BAD information to digest, but it's somewhere in there before it comes out as a very large stinky you know what. I WILL do what you said Thomas, don't worry. Thanks for nudging me along.
Peace
Thomas,
One down (Air America) Two to go (NPR and my priest) All this while waiting for my laundry to finish. Any more suggestions?
Thomas,
21/2 down (Air America, NPR and an appointment with my priest) One load of laundry in the dryer, three more to wash. I'm running out of ideas except to call my dad who is the absolute most well-read intelligent man I know. I will talk to others as the opportunity arises. Will contact my friends in the Democratic club but that is useless because the Democrats won't do a darn thing about it. Ciao!
Robin,
I admire you so much for what you are doing. Thank you for not choosing to be ignorant and asking questions. You are truly a great person.
I never really realized how bad your media was until you described it. We're lucky we have the Internet today because you can get all international news now from the web. Here are two good websites that report many things about the US that your government would never tell you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/ and http://cbc.ca/. By the way, on the BBCs website, if you type in DU use in Iraq in the search box, it will give you past articles on this topic.
I hope you succeed in what you are doing. Thank you for standing up for people who really don't have a voice. And please don't feel demoralized because you are not at fault for what your government has done.
Good luck Robin and God bless you.
THANK YOU Dena,
Like I said, I am digesting, but it's going to come out a very big stinky you know what. Thanks for the links. I am going to add them to my "favorites" list and log on regularly. Wouldn't it be great if Prince Talal bought out all the stock in Fox News (check out Haitham's thread on this) and took it over? Imagine, Al-Jazeera style Fox News. Fair and Balanced from the Arab Perspective! Somewhere in between, with lots of analyzing is where I like to be.
Thanks again
Masalama
Dena,
I take that back about being in-between. I get confused with all the different perspectives sometimes but you obviously can tell where my sympathies lie. Thanks again!
Robert,
I finally agree with you about most of what you just said. But I am going to still vote!
Robin,
Wow! You are talking to me again. I feel honored plus you agree with something I said. Thanks. I am malleable to some extent and not fixed in my ideas. Go ahead and vote, that is your right. I don't think it is a complete waste of time. All I am saying is that I can make a bigger difference with my life doing other things.
Robert,
Yes I'm talking, I get over things easily people tell me. But in cyber-space time it is even quicker. No need to feel honored, I'm just little old me. But thanks anyway. (Smiley faces!!please at least think about this) Vote. My dad, my favorite atheist only votes when he's really ticked off. It gives him satisfaction to do SOMETHING besides, he's a retired drug and alcohol counselor someone you probably have alot in common with. My mom was also a psychiatric nurse for many years. Just a "friendly" nudge and one of my pet projects.
Yes, we probably have a lot in common professionally but not personally. How can anyone be an atheist? That I will never understand. It seems that you have a lot of respect for his intellect. Why is it so important to you that I consider voting? Is my vote really going to make a difference? The time it will take me to vote could have been used hugging my child, counseling someone in need, donating my time etc. Man is fallible Robin and investing in politicians is erroneous and self-defeating. Keep working on. I am malleable afterall.
Thomas,
Thank you for everything you said. I share your view
Robert,
(Mind you my tone is NOT confrontational when I say the following)
How can you say on one hand that other countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan are so lucky since we are bringing democracy to them and then not vote yourself? If they don't vote they might as well have stayed like they were, under a dictatorship. The hallmark of a democracy is the ability to vote.
Now I'm going to anticipate your arguement back to me if I may:
Why put your faith in man when it is futile?
Because as humans we HAVE to trust each other, or at least pick the lesser of two evils.
Robin, you said we're not there to spread democracy, we're there for the oil and global positioning of our troops.
True, I did say that. But the beauty of democracy is the fallout.
Just a little friendly nudge again Robert. You have every right to stay home and hug your child. Perhaps you can vote while they are in school. You have every right to help others at all times as a therapist. Perhaps you can do it between appointments. I am NOT trying to change your mind. I am just suggesting that since we both love our country so much excercise the right of the vote which is so much a part of our beauty.
I'm done. No need to respond unless you really want to. Just a seed Thomas asked me to plant.
Thomas,
OK, I'm feeling deflated again. I've spent the last two hours researching depleted uranium and it seems the news is out there.
I guess here in the states it's just sort of been one of those things that had to fit in amongst all the other news items like Natalie Holloway and Terry Shaivo. I must have just missed it because it WAS in the news, but it wasn't any more important than anything else. Heck, it's even on Cindy Sheehan's site (if you know who she is, a peace activist). I think the peace activists that ARE talking about this are, you guessed it, jeered at by much of the media or ignored altogether. Could someone over on the other side of the ocean tell me how much press it's getting over there. I don't need more news about it, I've got enough to choke on. I'm just curious about the "mood" concerning this subject in Europe and the Mideast. Is it a "blip" over there too or is it treated more importantly?
Robin,
The hallmark of a democracy is to be able to not vote also. I've never voted and the world has not ceased to function. It is like me saying that you are unpatriotic if you criticize America. I no longer feel that way by the way. Perhaps I unfairly characterized you regarding that. Not voting does not suggest I don't care. When was the last time an election was won by one vote? I am not closed completely here Robin and I will take your argument into consideration.
Robert,
Can I understand from your position towards voting that you 're satisfied with the current policy of your country and trust your politicians so much that you feel that your vote will make no difference either way? or is it indifference ?
Robert,
Normally people who don't care about what's going on in their country are the ones who abstain from voting in elections.The same goes for those also who are not satisfied with their country's political options or who have lost hope of their country having the possibilty of achieving any change towards the best. Don't you see you don't practise what you preach?
Robin,
In Europe, it is not a "blip" it is a "BLIP"! It does get a little bit more attention and much more in depth. Though the matter is only given a bit more attention, the awarenes is much higher, relatively speaking.
I cannot give you a scientific answer, just one based on my gut feeling and my own ideas. I think the higher awareness is because most Europeans are more critical 'news consumers', which may be based on (at least) four factors:
1) Europeans have 'always' been critical of 'the Man' which I believe is rooted in our common culture/history. Europe is greatly influenced by protestant and reform religions as well as revolutions, which, historically, were about questioning the ruling classes (God, Royals, Nobles, the 'Church', Priests, politicians, you name it).
2) Both World Wars were fought on European grounds and both were related to fighting tyrani rooted in misperception of own greatness (WWI Emperors and Royals, WWII Germans and Italians). This also makes Europeans more aware of that war and devastation goes hand in hand. There is no 'clean' wars and (aspiring) tyrants/dictators must be questioned and critisized.
3) Post-War Western Europe was built on 'soft core' Capitalism, so the USSR/Communism was not perceived as a 'competing ideology' (as in the USA) but as a totalitarian dictatorship with a firm grip on our 'relatives' (Europeans have intermingled for centuries, so everybody have or know somebody who has family in one or more European countries). Therefore, the perception of 'Freedom' is a much more concrete term in Europe (Freedom is something we have gained and that we share) than in the USA (Freedom is something we can take for granted because the USA stands for Freedom).
4) Except for the UK, Western and Central European democracies are pluralistic, so the liberal conservatives (Democrats) and orthodox conservatives (Republicans) only represent a very small fraction of the full political spectre. Therefore, European politics is not simply a question of chosing one of two sides to agree with, but is based on discussing opinions with which one can fully, partly, or slightly agree or fully, partly, or slightly disagree. The party with which one agree the most is the one that gets the vote.
Unfortunately, more and more Europeans are getting fed up with politicians and this leads to a growing resignation. That is why not everybody knows about or cares about these kind of issues (the why-does-it-matter-if-I-can't-influence-it-anyway-effect). But the majority is still critical 'news consumers' and that is why something in the area of 70% of Europeans have more or less antipathy towards the US Administration (what the Bush media calls anti-Americanism to stir up the mono thinkers in the US).
I hope this made sense to you.
By the way, I have forgotten my Monday-depression from yesterday, because I realized that this week has two Fridays. Tomorrow is a national holiday to remember one of the many failed revolutions (the 1848 uprising against Austrian rule), so today is sort of Friday.
The revolution was beaten down in October 1849 and 13 revolutionary leaders were executed, but the defeat was a partial victory as the Austrians granted some concessions, though not real freedom.
There is an ironic truism that the most dangerous occupation in Hungary is being a poet, because a lot of revolutionary leaders were poets and writers and they were always executed when the revolutions failed :)
Thomas,
Thank you for your eloquent answer as to why Europeans are "more informed" Yes indeed, Europe has been racked with wars for milennia which makes it more in their "own self interest" to know what is going on around them. Thank goodness, even in the relative peace insuing after the break up of the Soviet Union and their loosing their control over Eastern Europe (but leaving a legacy nonetheless)Europeans have continued to be much more aware of their politics than we are here in the US. Our own history here in the US is so much different. The settlers landed on the East coast and had a HUGE area to play with, the wide open West. This bare land gave us the opportunity for our peoples to find a plot of land to call their own and set up shop so to speak. The Morman immigration is a perfect example. They started out in the East, when they got flack they moved to Missouri and when they got flack there they moved further West to settle Utah. Mind you there might have been a few Indians in the way for everyone moving West, but after all, that was just a small problem that was taken care of (note my tone of sarcasm)
Yesterday when I realized it was a "blip", I changed my email tone from "I've got this information, please get it out there" to "You have this information, WHY aren't you covering it"
My "personal mission" is to move it from "blip" status to the next rung up "BLIP" status. I sat at my computer sending emails to each entity as it came to mind. As one's mind generally works, I'm sure more entities will arise as I keep at this. One note: I went to the market and ran a few errands which took me about two hours. When I came home you won't believe what had happened. My internet had CRASHED. I called my computer genius neighbor over to try to fix it. We have the same server and HIS was not down so immediatley we started laughing when I told him what I was up to. My oldest daughter said "Homeland Security" Mom, they're onto you. I finally just turned off my computer, waited awhile and my internet came back on. Yes Thomas, it was MOST likely a coincidence but it got me going there for awhile. Today I reminisce and laugh at my experience yesterday and say, "Who cares" if HS IS looking in on me. I'll just give them my big toothy smile and say, "How ya doin' today Gentlemen"!
Anyways, thanks for responding and have a nice holiday!
Thomas,
One more thing, my 22-year old computer genius neighbor knew about DU and I asked him how he knew. He said one night when he couldn't sleep he just linked to link to link and found it. That's why we were laughing because even he thought it was a really strange coincidence that my internet was out and his wasn't. Oh well, if no one hears from me for a while, you'll all know why!
Tamim,
I realize that it sounds like indifference if I don't vote but it isn't. That is just the way you see it. I care about what happens in the US to some extent. However, as I have previously stated, do you honestly think that my one vote is going to make a difference? If that was the case then I would vote. No, I don't trust politicians so why invest in them. My point is that despite my absence in the voting booth things will go on and the sun will rise etc. I prefer, again, to invest my time more wisely in things that tangibly make a difference. Had I voted in the past, my vote would have never made a difference. Check the numbers. There has been no presidential election ever won by one vote or certainly not in my lifetime. Voting for crooked politicians makes me an accomplice to their crimes does it not?
Robert,
You said:
"How can anyone be an atheist? That I will never understand."
Well, never say never. I can't make you understand it, but I can offer you an opportunity to understand why I am an Atheist.
As an Atheist, my 'religion' is science, because I believe that religion is organized, man-made superstition. I am not using the word 'superstition' in a derogatory sense, but in the sense that it explains 'supernatural' phenomenons as something godly or something divine even though there is no scientific proof.
I have experienced a door closing all by itself despite that it would require several kilos of pressure to move it over a thick carpet, I have been accompagnied by a bright dot of light through a building, outside in both areas of shade and direct sunlight and it remained steady and in position even if I turned or jumped, and when my grandfather was in the hospital for a kidney stone operation and I was on my way out the door it struck me that it would be the last time I saw him, so I went back to give him a big hug and say "Good bye grandfather, be well, I love you." In the middle of the night, he went into a coma and died without regaining consciousness, but while the rest of the family hurried to the hospital, I went back to sleep with the satisfaction of having said said good bye to him in time.
If I had been superstitious, then I would label these phenomenons as 'a ghost', 'an UFO', and 'divine intervention' (or 'sixth sense'), but I am not.
Instead of explaining these pehnomenons with religion or spirituality I see them in a factual manner as something that I, personally, cannot explain. There may be scientific explanations that I do not know of or the explantions are still to be discovered, but if I try to explain something unexplainable without proof then I will end up being more ignorant than if I accept that there are things that cannot (yet) be explained.
Technically, I qualify as an Agnostic Atheist, because, to me, the existense and nonexistence of gods is not proven (and may never be proven) and I believe that, optimally, nobody should claim to know the existense or nonexistense of gods.
That I do not believe in religions does not mean that I do not share many of the moral values with you and other religious people. My 'spirtual guidance' or morals are also based on respect for others and their rights. Personally, I am a big fan of 'words of wisdom', proverbs, and figures of speech, so to me they provide my guidance.
As you can see from many of my posts, many of the sayings or principles I use as guidance are also part of the Bible, the Koran, and many other religious books. I just don't believe that any religion can monopolize on the 'right' moral values.
To me, religious rituals are irrational and I see organized religion as a form of mass hysteria. That is my quazi scientific interpretation of it but it does not mean that I judge, resent, or disrespect other people's right to be religious.
What I do resent is religious people fighting me or any other people, religious or not, in an attempt to 'monopolize the truth' by forcing me or others to recognize that their religion, their god, and their rituals is the one and only truth. If somebody tries to force his or her religious beliefs on others then I see that person as a 'sell out', because then he/she disregards the core purpose of his/her religion and its moral values.
In addition to my principles and my moral values, I have one single commandment that I try to follow (given to me by the great Bill & Ted):
Be excellent to each other, and party on, dude!
Robin,
did you see what the Israeli Army has been doing today in Gerico in the west Bank in Palestine?
They're demolishing A Palestinian prison with buldosers and their tanks are bombarding the building to arrest Palestinian leaders…
Thanks Tamim,
I'm going log onto the BBC and CBC links Dena gave me and get back.
Tamim,
I'm back from my short stint at Guantanamo. They said the special women's suite they were preparing for me wasn't quite ready yet so they'll come back for me later!
I just read the article on the BBC but as I was reading it CNN came on live with an interview with an American professor working at the Univesity in Janin. Did you catch it? I was riveted as he spoke. Palestinian militants had kidnapped him in response to the IOF raid of the PA jail incident which you alerted me to. The CNN anchorman was pressing him as to how frightened he must have been. He said, yes, it was unnerving but the Palestinian people are hospitable by nature and although he KNEW they could have killed him they wouldn't. He went on to say that the Palestinians live a HORRIBLE life under the occupation and that it's just not something we here in the States hear on our media. He talked about daily killings by the IOF of Palestinians. The reporter replied, "OH come on now, I'm a reporter and I know this is a rare occurance". The professor didn't budge as he said he knows it to be true from the first hand accounts of his students and Arab news. The reporter was on the spot as he sort of shrugged and said"Well WE all know how harrowing and dangerous your experience was". End of interview. It will be very interesting to see if it is repeated again like all other news items are.
As for the jail storming by theIOF. Typical. The PA is too weak to care of their own and Israel ALONE must handle things. One more incident that the government of the US supports terrorism by their strong support of Israel. Who's the terrorist now? You guess. As I am watching CNN right now, once more the Israelis are the heroes! Let's talk more as we learn more.
Thomas,
Very well said. I agree with nealy everything you stated. By the way, I was not being judgmental regarding atheist or agnostics. I simply don't understand how you can justify not believing in God. With our human mind we understand that nothing is created from nothing. A chair does not create itself therefore something created it. Where did we come from and the universe. How did it come to be. Science cannot explain everthing afterall. There's this big bang theory out there that supposes to explain our manifestation. Who created those things that banged onto each other? Thomas, I don't belong to a religious organization either. I was raise a Catholic but was dissatisfied with the ritualistic stuff and repetetiveness. Off I went to search and tried many religions. I decided as you did not to belong to such an organization. However, I did not decide not to believe in God. Here is a quote for you that might seem appropriate-"I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." I just think that living your life without believing in the existence of God is confusing and frustrating. One does not know one's purpose. I believe that God is a force or power that created everyting. God, to me, is not necessarily an entity or person. I see God as a force. Now, if you wish to go further entertain this. If God created everything then who created God? Give it your best shot and I will tell you what I think.
Thomas,
Is it ok for a liberal Catholic who attends Mass each week to agree with you? Because I wholeheartedly do. Faith is just that, a leap to find a comfort zone for me that PERSONALLY helps me get through the day. Maybe it's just a tool to reach what you have without it. Anyways, I think we're on the same page, maybe you on top and me at the bottom (no that is NOT an invitation to one of your infamous jokes! Any how, as I might note, I got many of my values from my dad who IS an atheist and I am proud to say so because I am proud of him! I like your Ted and Bill analogy as well!!!!Sort of the "Golden Rule" with some partying added on!
Robin,
The Israelites make their own decisions. If they terrorize Palestinians it is their choice and it is unacceptable. I agree that the US supports Israel but it does not make the US terrorists. It makes Israelis terrorists if they are doing the terrorizing. We need to be careful here in not piling on to the US what another country does. Does it make one a terrorist if they voted for Bush and Bush then terrorized with his army another country?
Short answer: Bush is but the latest in a long line of administrations which has supported Israel both financially and morally since before the declaration of statehood by Israel in 1048 and since. If we are giving them financial aid, and indeed we are their LARGEST donor then I say YES! How can we say a DARN thing about Dubai allowing their banks (very much like the Swiss banking system) to filter money for terrorist acts but yet accept and condone our OVERT policy of government support for the terrorist nation of Israel? Go figure, one man's terrorism is another's HOLY RIGHT as a nation.
Robin,
If I hand you a loaded gun and you go harm someone with it then it is you that are responsible. There is free will and choice to consider here. You are right, the US has supported Israel for many moons. That does not mean that we are responsible for what Israel does with the aid. The reason that US administrations support Israel is because most Muslim countries want to drive it into the sea and destroy it. America believes that Israel has a right to exist. Hamas does not believe Israel has a right to exist. Why not? Who are they to decide or conclude that? If we did not support Israel it would cease to exist in todays climate. To say that America is responsible for what Israelis do is a leap in my estimation.
Robert,
Your gun analogy is a poor one because here in the US there are gun registration laws which prevent gun shops from selling arms to known fellons. If the gun shop sells to a known fellon then the our laws DO hold them responsible. Just like drug dealers are held responsible for dealing drugs.
I urge you to hold further comment in the direction you are taking and take the time to research why you hold your opinion and why possibly there could be another side, the Palestinian cause. Just so you know if you did not already, Haitham is a Palestinian of Jordanian nationality. He has plenty of links starting on this site which could help you understand this issue better. If you still hold your opinion after you have taken the time to research the topic thouroughly and thoughtfully then you have just that, an opinion.
Robin,
Just because you disagree with my gun analogy does not mean that it does not have merit. Sure, there are laws that punish accomplices in the US. What I am saying is that we are all ultimatlely responsible for how we chose or act. Personal responsibility is in play here. I am not dismissing the Palestinians or their plight here. All I am saying is that when one chooses to act in a certain fashion they alone are responsible for those consequences. That is all I am saying. Everything discussed in this blog is opinion-based on biases. I am not justifying what the Israelis do. If they are unjust then it should be pointed out. I am not taking sides despite our media and government support of Israel. Quite frankly, we have been led to believe that the Palestinians are terrorists and that Israelis are fighting them for self-preservation. Our media is favorable to the Israelis that is for sure. I am not buying completely into it. What has been reported recently is that Hamas will not recognize Israels right to exist. Can you enlighten me on why that is-anybody.
Robert,
Short answer. Because Israel is a state which came into being on the backs of the people that lived there for centuries. Israel IS a terrorist state and has sought to rid the land of all non Jews. They call themselves a Jewish nation. HellOOOOOOO. There were Arabs, both Moslem AND Christian there before the creation of the state of Israel who were forced out in order to form an exclusive state.
What the heck do you want Hamas (by the way it's founder, George Habash, is a Christian) to think!? Israel just did not happen as an answer to the holocost. Zionism was an ideology founded in the 1800's LONG before the Holocost. Again, Robert, I urge you to research the history of this matter and come back with your opinion or questions. Your time would be much better spent doing that research than asking any of us here questions. I might offer the Sykes-Picot treaty and the Balfour Declaration (my senior project, and no don't ask me any questions BEFORE you have done your own research) as a start. I then strongly urge you to research the roots and history of Zionism. And since you're not spending your time voting, then you have some time to do what I suggest.
Robert,
Without the US unconditionned support Israel wouldn't be acting the way they do towards the Palestinians.They have committed horrible crimes and still they have gone unpunished. The US many times vetoed UN and security counsil resolutions meant to take Israel responsible for the overuse of force and for killing inocent unarmed civilians. The storming of the jail in Gericho and the capture of the senior Palestinian militant leader Ahmed Saadat was done with the US and British consent. Britain and The US were responsible for the prisoners and deliberately withdrew their monitors to open the way for Israel to do the dirty job they are famous for.
Robin,
Your tone is becoming ugly. Don't patronize me with since you are not spending your time voting comments. You keep thinking that I am only asking you questions to be more enlightened. I said anybody out there. Look back at my correspondence #202. You accused me of speaking to you in a certain fashion before and now you are being hypocritical. I am not interested enough to go to all those websites that you suggest. If I were I would have already gone there. You seem annoyed that I am asking questions. Isn't what this blog is about. To learn more about various topics. You don't have to be annoyed. Just don't take the time. Hopefully someone else will. You come across with a superior attitude. Read your response again #203. I don't need anything from you Robin so get off your "I'm so enlightened on these matters high horse."
Tamim,
Yes, your are correct. The consequences therefore to Israel are suicide bombings and terrorism. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. I am not disagreeing Tamim that Israel is not guilty of attrocities. All I am saying is that what Israel does with the aid we give it is completely up to them. They need to take responsibility for their actions. There are arms dealers out there on the black market. They sell their wares for profit, it is business. What those countries or entities then do with those arms are their choice. That is all I am saying. To say that I committed a terrorist act because I sold you a gun is not accurate in my estimation. Yes, Israel behaves badly and they are not punished by the international community. It is true that the US plays its role there. I agree with that.
Hey Everyone,
In the long list of emails I sent yesterday concerning depleted uranium I contacted Frontline. I just received an email from them and they gave me this:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/syndrome/
It's a program about Gulf War Syndrome and depleted uranium is included. Hope you enjoy the link. Masalama
Robin,
Thanks for the Information. I'm really surprised most of your tv channels don't inform you well about what's going on around the world.I watch the BBC and Aljazeera most of the time. I think unlike Europeans, Americans are more interested in what's going on in their own large country than in world news.Here in Morocco people are very interested in keeping informed about the outside world.
If one does not choose to be "enlightened" to the subject they are discussing then how meaningful can any discussion be. Again you say you don't care. Well Robert, some of us do. This is a subject of great contraversy and deep convictions held by some of us. I stopped bugging you about voting because that IS your perogative. You were being the "pest" Thomas referred to about voting and therefore I dropped it. On this subject you are again saying you don't care to take the time to learn more. That is your lack of "humility" (humbleness) rearing it's head again. So if I made the suggestion of you using your time not voting to research the Palestinian issue, it was founded on your very own prior statements. This is SERIOUS STUFF and before you offer up any opinion have it based on fact rather than emotion unfounded in falsehood.
Robin,
There again you are being rude. I have been civil. You can spend your whole life being an investigator on US attrocities and pointing out US mistakes. If that is your agenda then that is fine. I never said I did not care about what happened I said I did not care as much as you. Perhaps I have better things to do with my time. Your whole life revolves around these topics and your come across as fanatical about it. You did not address my point that you were being ugly and rude toward me. Where is your humility. Go ahead and dance around the topic and make me your scapegoat. People reading this blog can see the way you speak and your superiority complex. Wow, it came back to bite you since you have proven to be a hypocrite. Robin, I was humble enough to reform my tone and have been civil toward you lately. You have not. That is alright, you misrepresented yourself and I forgive you for being human. I will remain civil and demonstrate kindness toward you because I have exercise humility and changed for the better. Perhaps you need to do the same. What we care about does not have to be the same things.
Tamim,
Frontline is a program aired on PBS (Public Broadcasting Systems)
which is funded by government and private grants as well as private donations. It's come under fire due to their willingness to air contraversial subjects from different viewpoints. Many people have sought to cut public funding to PBS for this very reason As I've been surfing this site I've seen the opinion that sometimes PBS is TOO fair because it always seeks to present both sides. I think I came across this on Rachel Corrie through links somehow but I'm not sure. Frontline and PBS in general have a higher educated audience than other channels offered. They are NOT supported by advertising of any kind and are therefor free to broadcast in this fashion. Anyways, I hope you enjoy.
UH OH: The ruling just came down that Google (my search engine) will be forced to hand over all records of internet searches to our government. HELLLLLLLLLP!
Everyone out there,
When I was being bombastic toward Robin some of you criticized me. Now Robin is rearing her ugly head with superioristic statements and rudeness. Will any of you now sanction her for her less than civil tone? It takes humility to reform.
Robert,
"You live by the sword, you die by the sword" wasn't that you?
Robert,
Come on, Robin didn't say anything unkind to you.She just quoted someone else.
Tamim,
C'mon, you first defend Robin unjustly and overlook her condescending, rude comments and then you suggest I said something I did not. While I did say that you live by sword die by the sword, it was meant to indicate that Israelis breed that with their injustices and maltreatment of Palestinians. In other words, that is what they get for terrorizing Palestinians, their wrath. That was all. Please don't assume stuff. If clarity is not present ask and I shall clarify before you throw it in my face as Robin likes to do with the voting thing and calling me a pest in the guise of Thomas. Again, be balanced.
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
I did some of your research for you Robert. Mind you these are 1997 figures. Is it still your contention that it's up to them to do with their aid as they see fit? Considering you acknowledge Israel's atrocities towards the Palestinians, I just thought you'd like to see just how much we are supporting the State that is committing those atrocities. Now if Someone bought a gun from me and I knew darn well what they were doing with it for the last 58 years, I think I would have thought again about what I was doing. Please note that 12.2% of US TOTAL foreign aid goes to Israel. And you wonder why we're not very much liked by them? One more fact: the US was the first nation to recognize Israel as a state.
If any one is interested on where these figures came from,log onto http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm for more information on the impact of our aid to Israel
Congratulations Robin. You proved my point. Fanatical.
Here' some more information for you:.30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition
U.S. Weapons in the Israeli Arsenal
Selected list
Weapon
Quantity
Manufacturer
Cost Per Unit
Fighter Planes
F-4E Phantom
50
Boeing
$18.4 million
F-15 Eagle
98
Boeing (originally McDonnell Douglas)
$38 million
F-16 Fighting Falcon
237
Lockheed Martin
$34.3 million
Helicopters
AH-64 Apache Attack
42
Boeing
$14.5 million
Cobra Attack
57
Bell Textron
$10.7 million
CH-53D Sea Stallion
38
Sikorsky
Blackhawk
25
Sikorsky
$11 million
Missiles
AGM 65 Maverick
Raytheon
$17,000-$110,000
AGM 114 Hellfire
Boeing
$40,000
TOW
Hughes
$180,000
AIM 7 Sparrow
Raytheon
$125,000
AIM 9 Sidewinder
Raytheon
$84,000
AIM 120 B AMRAAM
Raytheon
$386,000
Patriot
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin
Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile
Boeing
$720,000
These just some of the weapons sold or given to Israel by the US.
Since you acknowledge Israel atrocities towards the Palestinians then I just wanted to know how our government is helping them commit those atrocities. The US has been the #1 arms supplier to Israel since it's founding in 1948. Again I say, if we've known what these weapons have been used for for 58 years why are we doing this? Please don't tell me that our media does not cover the Palestinian issue because it is our government's job to know where and forwhat our weapons are being used. Why do we not sell arms to Syria? Because our foreign policy is against supporting their agenda. Why does our arms sales to other nations ALWAYS have to be approved by Congress? Because it is up to Congress to only allow the sales of arms to those nations who will use those arms for reasons we support. Yes INDEED, per our very own laws we do NOT sell arms without approval as to their use. If you have any more questions concerning this matter, I would be glad to answer your questions when I have the time.
The following is the source of the above information if anyone would like to read further:
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
Robin,
When you say how much WE are supporting Israel that includes you and your tax dollars and every family member of yours. I have never indicated that what Israel was doing was just. By the same token what the Palestinians are doing is not just either-suicide bombings of buses with innocent children and women. Yes, I know, Israel is guilty but with their military might. STOP being so self-righteous. If the US wants to support Israel it is their right. If you want to point out US mistakes or supposed mistakes that is your right. Have you heard of the concept survival of the fittest. I am not suggesting the law of the jungle Tamim so don't go off on me about it. Having said that, it is the way it usually plays out. It is a terrible reality. The strong survive and the weak perish. Right is right and wrong is wrong nonetheless. You will tangle yourself in a web of intrigue if you continue down this slippery slope of fanatical pursuits.
We sell Israel weapons but they decide how to use them. If I handed you a shovel and you used it to kill your neighbor you are responsible. It is simple logic Robin. Get with it. You rant on with your figures and numbers. Don't you have a family to feed or something. You sure do spend a lot of time researching and pointing the finger. Have you not subscribed to your Christian principles-he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am sure you will not respond to that since you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. You are in search of conspiracies. What a waste. Act and do something more productive Robin already. You are not going to change any minds out there with your rantings. People predominantly have their minds made up and they also see what they want to see. A little honey and humility demonstrated on your part will help change minds. You come across as fanatical too much to change my mind. All I know is that there is injustice in the world but I am not going to go out there like some super hero to save the world. I am too busy trying to save myself/reform and teach my children to do the right thing. Nobody or country is perfect. Judge not lest ye be judged. Oh, that was another Christian principle.
Hello all,
Maybe some of you are wondering how we got of on a tangent like this. It all started with my post #154 when we were discussing the US military's use of depleted uranium in it's weaponry and the lieukemia and birth defects it causes. I said, "The title of this site is 'Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists' but perhaps the US is". The current topic of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was brought up by Tamim in post #193 when Tamim alerted me and all reading here about the events occuring today at the PA prison in Gericho. The above information that I have provided is to further my contention that the US is committing further terrorism by our support of Israel which I and many others consider a rogue nation. I utterly deplore that my tax dollars are going to fund this activity and wish our administration would change it's policies. As an American I will use my vote, in the best and most strategic manner to affect those changes. I will use peaceful manners of protest to also voice my dissent. I also fully plan to remain an American citizen and live in this country. I will also continue to "care" enough about this issue to keep abreast of the situation as best I can. Although I have been called a fanatic recently, it flows off of me like water off a duck's back.
Robin,
Whatever! You never respond to anything that is addressed to you. Instead you give generic responses and act like you are so above the fray. You drop bombs, comments, and then run and hide. Self-righteous fits you. Your tax dollars Robin makes you an accomplice. How will you sleep tonight knowing that? Your vote will change nothing but if you convince others to see things your way you have a chance. So far your tactics of superiority and know-it-all demeanor will not help. Sorry.
Robin,
First of all, we got off on a tangent when you became a rude, talking down to me person. You and your facts and figures, go to this website and get educated and don't address me until then high and mighty comments. That is how things deteriorated but you will not acknowledge that will you. I tried to be civil toward you but get back what you put out. Look in the mirror, your shit stinks to.
Robert Ruiz,
Remember it was you who started it by throwing unkind words at everyone with opinions you don't agree with.Didn't you dare accusing Robin of disloyalty towards the US? attempting to hush her.You also invited her to get out of the country and go to live in an Arab country.Can't you imagine that she's a full American citizen like you and that the laws of the US forbid even your BUSH to say so? I can imagine, if you were in a position of authority laws won't be of any use with your special way of finding excuses for everything depending on the mood you are in.
Robert,
Lest I waste any more of my own time defending my ideas or my integrity, I refer you back to post #38 on the Hillary thread.
You know the one where I began by quoting you: "Oh my God it's a conspiracy. "The US is dropping dirty bombs and harming poor Iraqi children. BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah" and then went on to say how I feel about your statements and attitudes. Thomas suggested I don't waste my time arguing with people on the internet like I have done with you. He's right. What I am arguing is ideas, not telling you the outrageous things you have said to me and others. You are absolutely right, my s–t stinks too. The difference I think is that as a civil human being I prefer to use mine as manure and you have shown us all here in black and white that you would rather throw yours.
Haitham, I apologize again for not complying with your comments policy,
Tamim,
First of all it is no surprise that you would continue to cozy up to Robin. You guys have similar agendas. We had gotten past the animosity Tamim and Robin was pretending to talk to me again. I had decided to reform REMEMBER? In other words Tamim, I recognized the error in my way, HUMILITY, and was being civil with Robin. She was civil momentarily but perhaps some truths I pointed out shook her interior and she began with the condescending comments and degrading me for supposedly not researching enough. Robin is the one that talked down to me but she won't admit it and she still has not addressed it. She is too busy being self-righteous. You Tamim are her defender and so it leads me to believe that you are not objective whatsoever. Therefore, anything you say on this blog cannot be taken seriously. Like Robin, you have tunnel vision and only focus on one side of the issues. Therefore, your arguments will not sway anyone to believe as you. I even acknowledged some truths that were evident because some of you actually enlightened me a little regarding US crimes. I have been more open-minded than any of you. Robin wants to stay up all night crunching numbers about how much money we give Israel and how many jet fighters and amunitions is procured with it etc. It suffices to know that the amount of aid is substatial. Why do we have to get an entire list from her of itemized things? That I called fanatical and it is lest you wish to close your eyes. Tamim, I am not unreasonable and have demonstrated it. Initially I was and I admit it. My humility, which Robin is bent on denying allowed me to reform. She then began with her ugly tone toward me. Robin then hides behind everyone and kisses up to Haitham and apologizes as though she has not particpated is this argument. Just to stay on topic somewhat, I agree that all Muslims and Arabs are not terrorists.
I really didn't have to stay up all night long crunching numbers.
It just took a few minutes of research and cut and paste!
Again, avoiding the issues. You can run but you can't hide from yourself. Humility, if there was any, would prompt you to say,"gee, I did not mean to be rude or condescending sorry if I came across that way." That is humility but none has been demonstrated. Practice what you preach, that is the Christian method for those of you subscribing to it.
Robert,
Don’t forget I’m only a guy belonging to one of the countries the US “could reduce to rubble if they wished to” and unlike you, Robin has proved to be one of the tolerant and big hearted Americans that do not measure the greatness of a nation by its capacity to rule the world or its military or economic power but by its degree of tolerance and justice and care for the prosperity of humanity as a whole.
Tamim,
Don't forget about his statement concerning the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in #221 "have you heard about the concept of survival of the fittest" I wonder who Robert thinks is the fittest and who their trainer is?
Tamim,
Have you visited the Rachel Corrie thread? It's really insiteful and has alot of links if you follow them. One of the most interesting thing is that Caterpillar is being sued by MANY parties for providing the bulldozers to Israel that are used to bulldoze Palestininan homes. What's interesting is that the bulldozing is illegal by international law. As you may know, no-one here in the US can sue our government. In this case there is a lawsuit signed by MANY against a US corporation which is not protected by lawsuits. It's moving slowly through the courts and it will be very interesting to see the outcome. It's sort of like selling a shovel to a known serial murder who uses a shovel to murder with. It's in law-terminology called an "accomplice to murder". Anyways, I just thought you might want to look into it
Tamim,
Again, misrepresenting my statements and cozying up to Robin. Pile on, go ahead. I can twist anything any of you have said also but won't. Survival of the fittest is a concept espoused by Herbert Spencer. I was saying, clarity for you, that unfortunately the strong survive and the weak are squashed as on the playground when I was a child. It is simply reality. To deny reality is to deny the truth. So what if I said it. Yes, the US could reduce your country to rubble. That is a fact. Does that make it right? Of course not. That was all. It is not arrogant to point out reality. If you think it is and you took it that way then you are irrational and lack insight. There again, you will see what you want to see. By the way, where is Robin's tolerance that you speak of. She still won't acknowldge that she is rude and condescending. Where is her humility that she suggested is a part of her Christian faith. It must be in Siberia somewhere.
Robert,
Remember you too were rude to Robin and never admitted it or apologized, right?
Survival of the fittest applies to animals not to civilized human beings!
Remember that your super power over there does not produce the air we breathe nor the water we drink. You're not the source of life even if you can be a death machine.
Tamim,
I just saw the news that the US has vetoed the establishment of a New Human Rights Council to replace the old one that was racked with problems. The vote was 170for-4against establishing the council. I logged on here http://radio.un.org/news/ to check it out. It's the UN web site itself and you can find out more. The key reason Ambassador Bolton gives is that each member nation would only recieve one vote which would diminish US power to control the council. Did you see it? How does this have to do anything with the topic of this thread? Well, if the US is called up on anything they still seek to control in this area also and wish to be able to veto sanctions against them. Some of those things other countries see as terrorism being perpetrated upon them. Sort of like the "pile of rubble" we made out of Iraq. In this case, all the King's horses and all the Kings men can't put Humpty Dumpty together again, and to add insult to injury we continue to use depleted uranium bombs. I don't know, just rambling.
Tamim,
Go back and read the blogs. I indicated that I had been harsh initially and had reformed. I was humble enough to admit it. I am not asking for an apology just pointing out the hypocrisy that is Robin. She called me out on it acting self-righteous and the she spewed venom. What is the matter with you Tamim? Are you that dense/blind. Plus, I never said I was a Christian like Robin and so she has to live by a code of ethics. Your continuing to twist things is amazing Tamim. Here I thought you more moderate but you proved yourself to be a troglodite when it comes to certain common sense things. Your only purpose is to see things the way Robin and others on this site wish. To degrade America and amaze yourselves with what the US has done or is doing. Get a life already. It is so pathetic that I am even continuing to have discourse with you.
To one and all,
I have enjoyed my time and have at the same time been frustrated by the closed mindedness on this site. It is my hope that all of you benefitted in some small way corresponding with me. No hard feelings toward any of you. I will no longer be participating in these converstations as I consider this site leftist and tunnel vision oriented. There is very little balance. I am moving on to more accepting blogs with more positivity and considerate dialoge. So long, I hope you don't miss me too much. I learned a lot from many of you and I thank-you for it. God Bless.
Robert,
I still don't agree with you on all issues, but I think I have come to understand where you are coming from.
Stay well, in many ways it has been a positive experience 'fighting' with you ;)
Robin,
The new UN Human Rights Commission appears to be a huge step forward (if it is approved).
Maybe there is actually light at the end of the tunnel and maybe it is not an oncoming freight train :)
If the commission becomes a reality (even without the two thirds majority clause about membership) then we may be one step further towards a solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict regardless of what the stubborn concrete-heads in the US (who continue to abuse their veto in the Security Council to protect Israel from being held responsible for their terrorism), in Israel (who justify their own terrorism with Palestinian terrorism), and in Palestine (who continue to support terrorism because Israel supports terrorism) say or do to continue the current stalemate.
This could be a very important step towards turning the UN into the democratic forum of the world it is supposed to be. I hope the commission reform will happen, because it would be to the benefit of everybody in the world who believes in human rights, no matter if they are recognized in ones own country or not.
The New York Times has a relatively objective overview of the current situation: "Q&A: The Effort to Reform the UN's Human Rights Commission" (http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/international/slot3_030306.html)
My hopes are high at the moment.
Thomas,
Thanks for the link. Dena up there gave me some links for other news sources as well as Sean over on Rachel. Actually, I think the very best thing about this blog is all the information I get about HOW to get information. Not that my internet isn't here to begin with, but the link information I have gotten from all of you who are NOT American "mono-thinkers" (I hope you don't include me) is invaluable. It's hard to find something you're not looking for so to speak.
I saw the vote of 170-4 and thought, hmmm, WHO are the other three besides the US? Somehow I had my suspicions but since I've been accused of being a conspiracy theorist, I kept an open mind as I sought the answer. BINGO! You guessed it!! Israel, the Marshall Islands (a US protectorate, I believe still is) and Palau who was probably bribed by us with SOMETHING! I know up there I was suggesting we could be held accountable in Iraq, but the fact is that the two, the US and Israel, Siamese twins, are up to their same old tricks(because they are old dogs and should really be euthanized and put out of their misery, NO I don't mean that literally folks, remember Google is being FORCED to hand over their internet user records). I guess you can tell from my prior posts, that once I actually got on a plane, left my beloved country and looked back at it from across the deep blue sea, I thought, WHOA horsies! what WAS I thinking. It's sort of like having Stockholm syndrome here. Currently I think it is only getting worse. it was 911 that REALLY tipped the scales. I don't know, not despair on my part, but absolute FRUSTRATION with the ignorance and arrogance of people here. Having said that, on foreign policy, ONCE in a GREAT while we get it right. (Post WWII). Peace in the Middle East? Not if the Siamese twin dogs have anything to do with it!
were not terrorists its like saying all christian like to blow up abortion clinics but not alll of them do like not all of us belive voilence is ok
I can not believe how far off topic this post has gotten, It reads more like a "You said I said" crap.
Robert I find you’re continued arguments and hostility towards Robin are a waist of time and uncalled for.
Regardless of whether you agree with the opinions addressed on this site, the facts will never change. It is a fact that the US administration supports Israel, It is a fact that the US administration has illegally invaded Iraq, It is a fact that the US administration continues to meddle in the affairs of other nations to further its own interests. It is a fact that the US media is one sided. I can keep going but I wont. Robin is an informed woman who happens to care about doing the right thing, she cares enough to learn and understand the history and the current issues, and therefore she has every right to expressing her opinions. You seem to be angered by her expressing her opinions regarding the US governments foreign policies but yet you say that you are not interested in getting to know the issues or that you do not have the time to care about them or get involleved. that is the reason why as a US citizen you are loosing more and more of your civil liberties, your government tells you that there is a monster out there (it happens to be an ARAB now), then it tells you that you have to give up some rights so it can protect you, and since you do not care or have the time to get involved you simply bend over and take it, the worst part of this is that you eventually begin to believe the lies.
It is sad that so many young men and women have to loose their lives for the benefit of a few power hungry and greedy people,
I hope that you make the time to learn about the root of the conflict (any conflict) before you make up your mind on who is the monster. And please do not tell me about the terrorists and suicide bombers I already condemn these acts and there thought process, I also do not hate Americans or Jews, but as I said in other posts I call it how I see it.
Peace
One of the sad facts a "troglodite" learns from the participation in the discussions on this blog is that ignorance and narrow mindedness and bigotry are but human characteristics neither democracy or freedom of thought nor economic superiority can exempt anybody from.
Mougley,
Thank you for the comments. Facts ARE facts and it is also true that FACTS form opinion. Without the facts, as many of the facts one can get their hands on, opinion is disqualified as to being rational. When a whole country, such as the US, is only fed one set of "facts" (and those facts have been filtered) it is understandable that opinions represented by Robert exist. Rather than asking our politicians here to stop supporting Israel, I would invite them to take some of their vacation time to avail themselves of the "true facts" as they are. If we as a nation have the gaul to insist on taking the lead role in solving the "Miseast Crisis" then how can we possibly do this with our continued support of Israel. Everyone needs to step back and look at this issue for what it is, INCLUDING the history of the matter. Yes, we also have to allow for "the water under the bridge" to play a role, but the US absolutely must recognize it's role in perpetuating the problem. Unfortunately we are a "war economy" to a great extent and our own economic interests would be undermined by changing our tactics.(our debt begins to mushroom while our defence companies rack in record profits) Our "moral" interests in depicting ourselves as the greatest nation on earth, well, let the Roberts of the world continue to wave their flags while others around the globe are burning them. We all live in one big world, not just one country as the United States continues to exert itself on others. Yes facts ARE facts.
One more thing,
Although I obviously did not vote for Bush, I did actually sit back and say "YES!" when he stated at the beginning of his presidency that his administation would support a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Of course we all know it was just one more in a LONG string of lies he has fed American and the world. If you look at Haitham's post of "Israeli lobby, unparalled influence" he maps out very clearly that our present neo-con agenda is a Zionist agenda. The players in our current administration are both Jewish and Christian fundamentalists with a few agnostic monsters thrown in who are in agreement amongst themselves as to what US policy should be. It is a confluence of interests that prior to now has not existed in such pure form It is a VERY dangerous partnership. What was I thinking when I said "Yes!". I was definitely asleep at the wheel so to speak and should have known better than to believe him even for a moment of self-relief.
In an attempt to bring this thread back to it's original purpose"Arabs and Moslems are not terrorists"
One need only to look at the history of "suicide terrorism" to find the Kamakazi pilots who were willing to die for their purpose. The history goes back much further even to Biblical times. The first Palestinian suicide bombing occured in 1972 (from my research) in Tel Aviv at the airport when a member of the PFLP blew himself up using Japenese grenades (ironic) to kill 26 and wound hundreds. Conventional warfare (as we here in the US like to refer to it, HA!) has also been used throughout history. My personal belief is that warfare used for any purpose other than self-defense is itself terrorism. The US policy of defending Israel is in itself terroristic by supporting the so called conventional methods (HA!bulldozers!) Israel uses. The most obvious example of US terrorism is it's own pre-emptive war in Iraq.
So, in short, my PERSONAL view is that Arabs and Moslems are NOT terrorists but HAVE used terrorist means on occasion to fight the so-called conventional (I believe terrorist) methods used by both the US and Israel. On a final note, I condemn both.
And then he was re-elected????
Robin I think that people have the responsibility to seek information regardless of where they live, and in today’s high tech world, it is not default to get this information.
I try to get as much information as I can from all sides so that I may form an educated opinion of the situation.
Mougley,
Not to try to defend myself on that one about being re-elected, but myself and others fought against it very hard. Bush won by the majority of the ELECTORAL vote not the popular vote (do you know about this?) It was further contended that there was vote fraud on the part of the republicans in Ohio which was the deciding state in tipping the electoral vote in his favor (and IF there was fraud as many contend, just one more act of "terrorism"). And you are absolutely correct in the need for ALL parties EVERYWHERE to be informed. I knew what this Demon president was up to for sure. But as an American I also seek to cast my vote relevent to domestic policies. It just so happens I wholeheartedly disagree with the Demon on both issues. He's horrendous Mougley, both to us here in the States and to other countries. It was just one of those moments of "Yes" as I'm sure some people of the Middleast also said "Yes" that was a small opening in the window of hope. Unfortunately it was only an appearance of a slightly cracked window to obtain credibility. What an absolute criminal shame, that we do NOT use our power as a nation to seek justice but instead choose to terrorize.
Mougley,
I change my tune a bit:
Why don't we use our power as a nation to take care of our own before meddling in the affairs of others? On a few occasions we have gotten it right, ie WWII. But even that was after a long process of isolationism and only entering when our own interests were at stake. The United States MUST respect the sovereignty of all nations and be aware of their own involvement supporting possible wrong. Robert was correct in a sense, it is a chess game. But the Palestinians have been the pawns, smashed to a point of struggling for existance and we have NO business doing what we are doing. Life and humanity are NOT a game to play with and for anyone to do so is committing a crime against it.
No need to defend your self Robin, I realize that more than 50% of the American public did not vote for him either time, and now more than 65% of the poulation does not agree with his polocies, I just whish people saw through that dum smile of his before he started his winless wars…..Just think how many poor Americans the 200 billion dollars could have helped.
Mougly and others,
I wasn't defending myself :) but I was being defensive I must admit just because I wish to distance myself from this cowboy and his posse whenever and however possible.
Here's something I AM proud of: I just found out my ex-niece, 18 years old, on full scholarship to Harvard, is in Latin America doing an internship in social work which she has chosen as her major. Her father died three years ago and much of that time has been spent taking care of her sisters and her mother who is still terribly depressed. Her mother also has her masters in Public Health and works in a women's clinic in Aramco. I am VERY proud of this, and the other Moslems I know who are kind and loving people and taking care of those around them in need. No, Arabs and Moslems are NOT terrorists by nature whatsoever and anyone who says so is full of it!!!!
While I respect the idea that all followers of Islam do not fall under the definition of terrorist, it is those who preach of killing all infidels and those who behead innocent civilians and those who would permit their children and/or loved ones to blow themselves up in order to kill other innocents all in the name of Allah that cause the apple to look rotten.
Rotten apples? Islam is a cult of the worst kind, created in the mind of a skilled deceiver from pieces of Judaism and Christianity and his own idol-worshipping past. Muhammad was no prophet: no prophet of a benevolent God could wreak the crimes and campaigns, rapes and pedophilia of that Muhammad did. No man of peace would denounce listening to music and yet turn around and make women into items to be bought and traded and used at man's whim.
Islam kills its own members that try to escape it, it puts fear into the hearts of those that would speak as I have just typed, it is pushing the limits of civilizations all around the world and pulling us back to the 7th century.
'Moderate' Muslims are not good and decent people BECAUSE of Islam. They are good and decent DESPITE it!
Think clearly. The future is going to be an ugly one and the lines are already being drawn.
Exactly what were you trying to bring up with that pathetic point of your's FOE-hammer????
For anyone who says say people of the Muslim faith are more disposed to terrorism than people of any other faith I would like to inform them of this. The worlds largest terroist training camp is a department of the US Government, and is situated at Fort Benning, Georgia. It was previously known as the "School Of the Americas (SOA), and is now known the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation" (WHISC). Since it's founding (in Panama) in 1946 it has produced over 60,000 "graduates" who collectively, have been responsible for terrorism, torture and genocidal warfare against the civilian populations of Central and South America for fifty years. Graduates have claimed victims in Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Equador, El Salvador, Paraguay, Guatemala, Panama, Haiti, Honduras and Mexico.
It is also true that statistically, incidents of terrorism haven't really increased since the rise of Ayman Al-Zawahiri and Usama bin Ladin. It's just that they have turned the United States into a victim of terrorism, as well as a perpetrator. And of course, while the United States, Europe, and the other bastions of so called "Western Civilization" have a voice, the rest of the world doesn't.
Good points, Paul.
The fact that the U.S. does not broadcast it's terrorist intentions does not make it less guilty of them. I hadn't realised that the SOA had changed its name. Kind of like Philip Morris changing its name to Altria, or Beelzebub changing his name to Donald Rumsfeld.
Foehammer,
Christians have been known to ban dancing, denounce music, forbid their wives to work, and incite the bible and god's wrath therein as justification for murder and war. And this, not just in the 7th century, but today, yesterday and tomorrow. If you want to talk about a religion that controls its followers through fear and hatred, don't leave them out. Also, there are plenty of examples to be found in the old testament of god's wrath being delivered by and for his chosen people. Even G.W. Bush claims to have spoken to the almighty on several occasions in regards to his wars on Afghanistan and Iraq. Who's calling him a nutcase cult follower?
Well this is a very interesting read ,however i note that at the bottom of this page you say no zionist properganda ,and that to me says it all ,you can spread properganda but you fail to let the other opinions speak their side ,however that is your right ,on the issue of muslims and terroists ,well there are a lot in australia who are being charged with terroism so i would say they are not one of you and these people are giving you a bad name as a whole but what are you so called by you good muslims doing about it? are you letting anyone know who they are? and the arab gangs what about them? they have no regard to any laws of the countries they are in because they only have one law the religous one ,you are right im sure there are many muslims who are peacefull but just as many are not ,not all muslims are terroists however most terroist acts are committed by muslims and thats the problem ,now im not for anybody but i am for peace to everybody ,ther thing that bothers me is on one side of the coin muslims say im peacefull while the other side continues to kill and maim innocent people and still trat their women like they are only part human instead of equal no matter what country they live in ,i suggest you all get civilized before you start telling the world how good and peacefull you all are ,and tell me this if there was a war in the country you were in and you were asked to defend that country against islamic radicals would you??? if anyone goes to an islamic country they have to abide by their laws of religion even though one might even not be religious ,now thats just not right in my book and when muslims go to another country the protest that they are disriminated against if they do not follow that countries laws ,seems very one sided to me they must respect your laws but they wont respect others laws,these are the things that confuse the west into assuming the worst about muslims even though im sure that every muslim is not the same however im also sure that many of you do not have the luxury of free thought as that is restricted through your religion ,i hope you are right in what you say ,but i would sure like to see it in action before i become a believer of your words ,i hope you dont regard this as a so called zionist properganda post as it is not, we in the west believe in free speech and saying what we think just as you yourself have posted what you think .
PS, i do agree with you on your relgios points ,i myself do not have a religion as i see them as very hypocritical in many ways and i mean all of them perhaps thats why people have so much trouble seeing the truth of anything as opinions are basedon what they believe not on facts .its a bit like the greedy greens rubbish.
This is a very noble cause and is long overdue ,i agree with the religious comments and it looks like history is reapeating its self only this time its not the crusaders but muslim terroists who are even killing innocent muslims too ,i think the biggest problem for westerners is the culture clashes of religions ,the christans have moved on from crusades and muslims have not ,but of course not all muslims and going by your posts you too will soon be an enemy of the terroists that seems to be the way they work stop anyone who disagrees with them ,its a great shame that all muslims are not as you seem to be ,but i also understan the attitude of the west when it appears that muslims preach one thing but do quite the opposite .however good luck in your ambitions and i hoe you have much success.
I congratulate these posts as they appear to be very constructive and mostly unbias toward the biggest problem i the world today terroisim ,i dont think anyone will ever get to the truth of it all and who is running who .take israel they attacked the us ship and knew who it was ,transfered weapons technology to china from the usa ,the un for example was just caught not long ago cohorting with the taliban along with a senior european union ,on them they had 19,000 in cash and a list of senior people in the afgan government ,very suspect to say the least ,so its a big problem just sorting out the facts and truth ,one thing muslims need to do is update its religion to the 20 th century a lot of things in it are just not acceptable in todays scociety,beheadings ,hangings , stonings ,for small things is just not on in todays world and everyone deserves justice ,these are no more than criminal acts by criminals in power using religion as the means of accceptance just as crusaders did long ago, and shadow any perception that it is a peaceful religion .
melanie, jack and truthman,
I will not go through all the crap you mentioned above cause it's time waste, however, yes your comment is nothing but ZIONIST PROPAGANDA (you know yourself). Not to mention that you are trying to SPAM my blog using THREE different names, melanie, jack and truthman (I have all the IP trace records).
If you have anything to say, feel free to start a new blog and say what you want there, but NO ZIOSHIT PROPAGANDA HERE! This is not a public forum, it is a personal blog and I have all the right to keep it clean from Zionist crap.
Ah, an old post coming back to life, this one "Arabs and Muslims are NOT Terrorists", seems this just can't be resolved in people's minds.
Above:
Perhaps one should look to "modern nations" for how they have "updated".
We don't behead here in the US, nor do we hang anymore, and we have never "stoned" These are acts against INDIVIDUALS. Now we have "updated" to lethal injection, a method which has been put on ice in several states and is now before the supreme court. Yes indeed, we are a modern nation who kills their citizens in a sterile environment,"medically" with a window to view the person dying by those who wish to view.
But what do we do in our foreign policy which affects MILLIONS? Let's go back in history a little. In 1823 the Monroe Doctrine was penned declaring hegemony over the entire Western Hemisphere which morphed in to Manifest Destiny (decimating the Native Americans), the Roosevelt Corollary which morphed into the misnamed "Good Neighbor Policy" People want to try to say that Arabs and Muslims are terrorists because of acts by SOME individuals. Yet we cannot look in the mirror and see that our foreign policy is RELIGIOUS/AGGRESSIVE in nature. Why do we think we have the right to exert that all others must submit to OUR demands? Is it Arabs and Muslims who have toppled governments one by one in Latin America because various entities there stood up to our business interests claiming national rights to THEIR natural resources? I suggest it is not.
When I state our foreign policy is "religious" in nature, it is because just as one religion claims superiority over another, our nation has claimed CAPITALISM as superior to other economic systems. But this capitalism of ours goes even further, because as a nation, America needs a constant feeding, consumerism becoming our "right", consumerism becoming our GOD whose feet we worship at whose morality is non-existent because it matters not what another suffers for OUR God, we are "superior", we shall not allow any others to think otherwise. The victims of our consumerism are "collateral damage"
Back when this post was at it's most active, 180,000 Iraqis were estimated dead as a direct result of the US invasion. Now it is estimated over one million have died, and four million have become refugees (internal and external) Does not any one remember that Saddam was planning to change from the dollar to the euro? How DARE he. And so it went…………let's "find" NON-EXISTENT "weapons of mass destruction", let's find bin-Laden in Iraq where he WASN'T, let's throw a party over there so they won't "fight us over here". For what? America's RELIGIOUS greed as a nation.
Halliburton, Chevron, ExxonMobil and the Petro-imperialists, Nour USA Ltd., General Dynamics, Custer Battles, Aegis Defense Services, Bechtel, CACI and Titan, Blackwater, the list goes on, with the US military to pave it's way. The CEO's of which are the amongst wealthiest men in the US, praying at the alter of consumerism. Multiple houses, exotic vacations, expensive cars, only the "best" will do.
So answer me this, just WHO are the terrorists? WHO has used it's overpowering military strength to squash nationalistic movements around the world because they have dared to stand up to our business interests?
Greed is a "god". It is an ugly one.
Nate,
Give me a break! You are mixing everything together!
You are talking about Arab Media as if we have one. Yes we have TV channels, radios and newspapers, but they are all owned and controlled by OUR big brother, and that goes to everyone, including Aljazeera, which is supposed to be the most "free" Arabic media channel, however they are controlled by their country host and you will never hear them criticizing their host. Alarabiya is 1 million percent Saudi, and all the rest are nothing more that local TV's run by the "Ministry of disInformation".
Now, who is killing who, Shia killing Sunni or Sunni killing Shia, I honestly do not accept this as the reason of the Iraqi conflict because even Shia kill Shia and Sunni kill Sunni and American kill everyone. In other words, it is a mess in Iraq and taking someone side based on his sect as Sunni or Shia is wrong. Here, the Arab media – intentionally or unintentionally – are doing good because they did not sink to this US feed propaganda to show that the conflict is internal. Not saying that there is not conflict between Iraqi brothers, but the main reason behind all the conflicts in Iraq is the American occupation and nothing is more important than that.
On other note, Arab in general are smart enough not to equal and compare internal conflicts in Iraq or Palestine to Israel occupation of Palestine. Therefore, I actually give the Arab media a credit for reporting the massacres done by the neonazi-Zionists even if that is on the account of ignoring the internal conflicts inside Palestine and Iraq because all the problems in the Middle East root back to the Zionist occupation of Palestine and other parts of the Arab world plus the US occupation of Iraq.
As far as the assumption that "if Israel didn't exist, Iran would have taken its place", I'm afraid this is baseless theory. Before Israel, Iran was there and there was no issue. Yes, Sunni and Shia are not pals, but at the end of the day they both have something to share which is religion, history and land, unlike the case of Israel-Zionists and Arab case. US and its allies want to and push for widening the gap between Shia and Sunni as if Shia are equal (or worse than) Zionists, but this will never happen because Sunni and Shia knows who is their real enemy. This is how politics is played. "Divide and conquer." The more they are divided, the easier you can control them, and if I was Bush I would do what he is doing, this is how the "right" of the occupier. OTOH, although I don't agree with Syria and Iran role in Lebanon, but for me, they are less evil than Israel, US and France presence there.
What's left? Nuclear Iran! Well, this is an illusion my friend. Nuclear weapons is a threat on everybody and NO body. You see, no one in the region can use the nuclear weapon because we are not living in isolated worlds. All countries in the region are affected by a small snow storm, imagine what will happen to Israel if they used their Nuclear on Iran or vis versa, all will be screwed. The point here is that Iran is not submitting to be under US control like all other countries in the region. Using Nuclear program as an excuse to bomb Iran is just one method to "free" Iranians from their dictators, like Iraq. This is a joke. No one in the world – except those in US who don't know where Iran is located on the map – believes Bush and his Nuclear Iran excuse. A week ago Iran launched its first space rocket, US condemned that. What?! Why is it ok for anyone in the world to send his machine to space but not Iran? A month ago Israel launched one of the spy satellites (using Indian rocket), no one said a word. So why Israel can spy on you, but not others?
OTOH, Arab in general and Palestinian in particular knows in the bottom of their heart that Iran is not going to help them in anything, but, something is better than nothing. As the Arabian proverb says: "My brother and I unit to fight our cousin (if they have to), and my cousin and I unit to fight the stranger." In this case, Iran is our cousin (religious, geographical and historical relationship). Zionists and America are outsiders!
It's so sad how narrow minded some people can be, somethings without even knowing it. Religion is and always has been intended for good and only good, since it's very foundation. It's merely the misinterpretation of religion that leads to war and violence and said narrow mindedness. Muslims and Arabs are not terrorists in the slightest, no matter what any one person may say or believe. If anyone were to look up the definition of 'terrorist' or 'terrorism', would they find 'Muslim' or 'Arab' or 'Islam'and where in the mix? No, of course they wouldn't. Terrorism is not exclusive to the Middle East or any one area of the world. Hypocrisy, however, is one thing that seems to be native to the United States. It's all as simple as this: no one who calls themselves religious can effectively bash another religion for whatever the reason without the expectation of backlash from those who know how terrible that action is and can become. All religion is about love, no matter how any individual interprets it. These misinterpretations are responsible for war and violence and the absence of peace–the very thing we should hope to avoid now and forevermore as we try to rebuild the idea of 'good will towards men' and 'loving thy neighbor'. Terrorism is a horrible thing, but it has nothing to do with religion itself. It is the interpretation, and the interpretation only, that fuels the global terror machine. I am certainly not a religious person, but I do respect all religions despite it. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that humanity's greatest crime is against itself–and the inability to love, and protect and cherish one another in this life is the most damnable mortal sin we can ever possibly commit.
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Arab and Muslims are NOT TERRORISTS
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