Burning Butter!

u have undertaken lots of effort to write this. This is simply great mate, keep the good work going!!

Hi there,

I fell sorry for everybody living in free countries and all peacefull Muslims, but what we now have to watch is radical “Muslims” desperat attempt to stop Islam reform itself to a secular religion.

I’m Danish, and would like to clarify things a bit.

In Denmark we have a long tradition for satirical drawings. Since religion in Denmark is regarded fairly much as a private matter, we often make fun of religious icons. At one point a Danish artist depicted Jesus on the cross with an erect penis. Imagine what would happen if someone did something similar to a Muslim icon like Mohammad!

In this case, the drawings of Mohammad was published with the intent of starting a debate on self censorship and freedom of speech, when the issue is related to Islam and Muslims. A relevant debate, I think…

Now, Jyllands Posten – the newspaper that published the drawings – is indeed a right-wing liberal newspaper. However the term “right-wing” here in Denmark is perhaps not what you’d expect from ex. an American point of view: Right-wing here is basically just conservative.

A delegation of local Muslim leaders, with the Danish Muslim leader Abu-Laban (he’s banned in Egypt, because they regard him as a terrorist, btw) in front then visited a bunch of countries in the Muslim world, to speak their case.

They brought with them the 12 drawings plus a bunch of other drawings and photos, wich noone really know how they came about, since they we’re certainly not printed in any Danish newspaper.

It seems to me, that this hole case now basically is living a life of it’s own, that not really is about these 12 drawings, so much as it is a case of cultures clashing.

What puzzles me, however, is the fact that Denmark for the past 25 years has been one of the main contributors in the efforts of creating a sovereign state of Palestine.

The Danish government has helped financially, politically and in all sorts of other ways. We have granted asylum to a massive amount of palestinians, and even tjetjen muslim rebels (to the clearly expressed dissatisfaction of the Russians).

So It´s not Denmark or the Danish who having a problem!!!

u might be doing 1000 and one good and correct things..all it needs is a tiny spark to flush all that down the drain. Let’s face it..and dont kid ourselves…in the world of politics..EVERYONE has an agenda…u think those so called good gestures have no string(s) attached?

Thank you Haitham for the explanation.
These were some very stressful days here… so u can understand where I was coming from!!

Anyways, u can email me anytime..

Dear Steven,

The reason for this dismissive attitude is because take for example the Americans (leaders) know what they have perpetrated against the muslim world, supporting the occupation in palestine for e.g. and the wests continuous onslaught on islam and branding muslims as terrorists. They also know that they will continue in this path, their governments will go after their own interests and thier media will try to make news as was said in haithams link below and for these reasons muslims will always have much to be upset or angered about.
we need to have an understanding of the root causes of this rift between the west and muslim world, who hit who first? …

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/02/07/do-we-hate-denmark/

Steven,

apology if you misunderstood, what i meant by who started it first was that the masses need to know as much of the truth about what actually happened in order to support those who are wronged, and im not saying that its only muslims that are wronged, there is soo much injustice all over the world and in a sense its a shame on the muslim that we do not speak just as loud for the others.
Doesnt it make sense that once everyone knows their stance with regards to who is in the wrong or the right, that rectification can begin for those who need it? as you so well put, that we may call those who have made selfish commitments in life putting them ‘on a path of acquisition and intimidation’ that there are better ways to live, and they will gain more. i very much agree with you on this point. i dont know how much you have read about islam, but this is the mission of this misunderstood faith, that contentment is in faith rather than the hoarding of wealth or oppressive power. That we are commanded by our Creator to do all that is good and stay away from all that is damaging within the framwork He has sent. Unfortunately not all muslims live up to this. but did you understand my 1st point?

lol….u are really mixed up…‘eye-for-an-eye’ culture mixes with a forgive-and-forget’ culture…with that sweeping statement..it clearly shows how shallow u are..hopefully the rest of Denmark is not like u. As mentioned in my previous posting…only 3% (according to reports) of Danes go to church once a week and Denmark is one of the most secular European nations…the conclusion is quite simply they have no respect for their own religion..how would u expect them to respect others? Added to that..is the xenophobic mentality of people like this guy above.

Ayaan said,

“…what i meant by who started it first was that the masses need to know as much of the truth about what actually happened in order to support those who are wronged.”

I think Ayeen believes that the anger and hurt feelings, the violence and harm that has been caused by the publishing of these cartoons can be resolved. It can be resolved in the sense that some just resolution can be determined and established. I get the impression Ayeen thinks if the truth about the cartoons were known, one would be able to see which of many points of view was right, and which others were wrong.

I suspect Ayeen believes that people tend to use force to acquire wealth, and that this way of promoting one’s self is unjust. That is, it usually involves stealing the valuables owned by the weak, and killing or intimidating those who object. The business of determining who is wrong is about deciding who has committed these acts of intimidation, theft, and killing and who is right is about deciding who was robbed, intimidated, or murdered. I suspect the idea would be, if the masses found out the truth of these questions, then their combined actions, the actions of the majority, so to speak, would be able to act as a counterweight against the robbers and thieves. I think Ayeen’s idea is that the truth will bind the weak together to make them ultimately more powerful than the elites.

I take it this is the first point that Ayeen made, and what she was most interested in having us understand.

Now, Thomas describes Ayeen’s position as one of “an eye for an eye.” I did so too. Thomas is sceptical that this understanding of how morality works could ever determine what would be just, or ever help people get justice done. He thinks that Ayeen’s account of morality will fall apart because everyone will assume that they are right, and others, like the Muslims, who to the “old school” Danes are unfamiliar and different, must therefore be wrong. He doesn’t allow, for some reason, that there would be any independent determination of the truth that would allow one to judge independent of one’s selfish interests.

I think Thomas would be very resistant to any claim that the Danish people were at fault, or that there was something wrong with Danish culture. I think he would be right in this. Ayeen’s idea that the truth should allow for a resolution to this conflict should acknowledge that Thomas’s culture or the Danes themselves were not at fault, as Thomas should allow that it may not be the fault of Islam or the Muslim community that this violence has occured.

I think neither Ayeen nor Thomas has been able to state a specific enough culprit yet. The perpetrators are not the Danes, or the Muslims, but specific people, with specific agendas in mind.

So, for example, I think that we need to look at who specifically wanted to publish these cartoons, and why. What was the point of the Prime Minister not calming the situation by seeing representatives of the Muslim community. What is the point of blaming the Muslim community for taking offense at some offensive cartoons? These specific questions seem to me more pertinent.

Ayeen agrees with me, saying,

“…that we may call those who have made selfish commitments in life putting them ‘on a path of acquisition and intimidation’ that there are better ways to live, and they will gain more.”

I would like to add to this point that we seem to agree with, that the alternative to the selfishness where one’s goal in life is to survive at the cost of everyone and everything else, is to accept the fact that others have good ideas and expertise on the questions that we all face. So, for example, the people that I imagine are out pillaging and burning for plunder, and so on, are doing this because that’s the only way they think they’re going to survive. Bush and his allies are in Iraq, and fooling around whereever there’s oil, because they think that’s how they personally, and those they think they are responsible for, will survive.

Like Ayeen, I think there is a better way to go about surviving and assuring one’s safety. I just want to say that I don’t think assigning blame, or determining who hit first, is going to persuade Bush, or the guys behind the insulting cartoons, to stop with the use of violence, sneakiness, and deceit.

They have to see there is a better way.

Blackfeline,

I thought there could be a limit for stupidity, but you are just proving that the scale is dynamically expanding.

First of all, I do not pay any attention to political and religious newspapers and especially not very small newspapers with a declared red party line.

Second, even though I do not agree with his political color, Mr. Burcharth is absolutely right, “Danes have grown more xenophobic over the years” However, if a bigot like you interpret it to say that all Danes have turned into Neo-Nazis then you are showing that it is in fact you who are blatantly displaying hypocrisy, bigotry, predjudice, intolerance, and racism.

I have not labeled ALL Muslims as terrorists or primitive people in any of my posts. However, it is hard to find any of your posts where you are not using the broad brush to label all Danes as racist, intollerant, primitive etc.

I realize that it is not all Muslims who are interpreting the Koran as if it was “Mein Kampf” and that a majority of Muslims are in fact tolerant and respectable people.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but it is not everybody who have read the Bible, the Koran or any other religious book who are tolerant and respectable just as it is not everybody who have read a book about physics who are rocket scientists.

From your hatefilled posts it is quite clear to me that you are neither a tolerant and respectable Muslim nor a rocket scientist!

Stick that in you fascist pipe and smoke it!

Tut-tut, dear Thomas:
When you run out of arguments, you start yelling and get all
red in your face. Oh dear, that most definitely won’t work;
Mr. Burchhart is right, of course
and “Information” may be small but has no real party line
And your efforts to patriotically stand up for Denmark are
noted, but they’re really misplaced here.
Yes, many reactions in the Arab world were over the top
and seem misplaced (why don’t they go against those who
torture and enslave Muslims all over the world – like, their
own governments, instead?) but blaming the Imams for telling
the world about the ugly xenophobia which unfortunately permeates
our beautiful country is really shooting the messenger. If all you can muster is huffing and puffing when challenged, I think you can do more for Denmark’s reputation by joining the Another Denmark, crowd and damning Danish racism – instead of applauding and defending it.

Thomas,
WTF are YOU talking about?

Never have I declared myself to be socialist, nor to
have a “socialist agenda”.

I called you “racist” because you seemed to argue that those
to blame in the present situation are the Danish Imams who
felt they had to raise the matter diplomatically abroad when
they couldn’t get any attemption from the government after
Jyllands-Posten pulled their horrendously xenophobic little stunt.

Blaming the Muslims for the consequences of Pia Kjærsgaard-like
Danish xenophobia *is* racist in my book. We need to recognize
that if these cartoons had been published in a country not as
polluted with xenophobia, this situation would probably never have
escalated out of control.

I’ve posted a little resume concerning why Fogh wouldn’t
handle the matter properly in the autumn (in English) here:
http://www.modspil.dk/politik/another_denmark__ii.html

Carsten,

I just went to your website and I definitely smell a socialist agenda as you are attacking everybody who, politicallym are anywhere on the right side of the center.

Carsten,

I did not dismiss Burcharth’s message! I said: “.., even though I do not agree with his political color, Mr. Burcharth is absolutely right,..”

No problem.

Thomas,

You mentioned the “Socialist appeasement policy towards integration” in your post to me. I have referred in the past to a socialist website. This may make it seem as though I know what Danish socialists have advocated over the recent past, or that I have agreed with them, particularly on this question of integration. However, I only referred to the website. I think they have good observations and in many cases have advocated a reasonable position. However, I don’t know what their position has been on this question. I don’t know if I would have agreed with it. You have assumed too much about what I would argue for Denmark.

The sun is high in the sky here when it’s dark there and you are fast asleep.

You made out that the socialist’s policy of, “…allocating money (I am not saying whether it is too much or too little) and otherwise hoping that integration will more or less solve itself…” did not work.

I’m not sure this was their policy. I would agree with you that it probably wouldn’t work if that, in fact, was what they did. I know that the Republicans accuse the Democrats, here in the U.S., of doping much the same, and argue that throwing money at problems will never work. The problem is, from my point of view, the Democrat’s programs are never just about throwing money. They have, for example, tried to create government operated programs in support of children and old people. These are education programs or social security. In thois country, when the Republicamns argue against throwing money at problems, they are advocating the elimination of public education or social security as government responsibilities. What they seem to want to do is force people, even those with no job skills, or who are disabled, to rely on private services, for which they would be expected to pay.

So, I would then wonder if your resistance to socialist policy means you would advocate the privatization of social and educational programs. In Latin America the governments have tried to privatize the water supplies. Do you advocate such measures, in order to avoid throwing tax money at problems?

I do not assume that your rejection of socialist policies in Denmark commits you to going to what I take to be the extremes advocated here. But what would you say?

I do agree that the “pickled problems” do come back to haunt. However, were the socialists responsible for the “pickling”? Maybe they were not alone in getting the integration problem to disappear under a rug. My first thought would be that the businesses of Denmark would have tried to help everyone ignore social problems like integration. The more problems that the country would have, the more money might be requested to deal with them. Denmark might not seem the perfect business location if there was the realization that it too contained social unrest.

You said, “I think you are seeing nasty capitalists and scary ghosts that are not there.” I appreciate this warning, and I will try to be specific about who I think is responsible for things. I would appreciate hearing what your object is. Do you think that there aren’t any “nasty capitalists?”

You also said this,

“…I did NOT blame the situation on the Muslims. What I was saying is: Both sides have to accept that shit happens and get over it, because it is not possible to create a solution that will make tomorrow better by only looking at what happened yesterday…”

I’m sorry if I made it sound as though Thomas blamed Muslims for anything. I said this,

“…Thomas should allow that it may not be the fault of Islam or the Muslim community that this violence has occured.”

where what I meant was that if both Ayaan and Thomas wished to resolve conflicts, then both Ayaan should refrain from blaming all Danes, and Thomas should refrain from blaming MuSlims. I do not suppose that either Ayaan or Thomas do, in fact, any such things. The point was just about what should be done to resolve conflicts. It seems both Ayaan and Thomas agree to this.

I don’t agree with Thomas that shit just happens and everyone should learn to get over it. This is so funny, that Thomas who can’t let anything blackfeline says go by the way without coming back at him with some badmouthing. So, walk the walk.

I think neither Ayeen nor Thomas has been able to state a specific enough culprit yet. The perpetrators are not the Danes, or the Muslims, but specific people, with specific agendas in mind.

Thomas,

Im quite disappointed at your interpretaion of my message, though.

ISLAM (not the violent reaction of SOME muslims that has ruined your view of muslims) is merely ‘politely’ saying, what kind of a culture is it that you insult people, you call that civilization? it is really strange that the editor was saying this so proudly, imagine if that was any of our mothers, would we be proud that she was insulted, because it was our ‘culture’. do we then not question our cultures, our practises?

where is this respect for all cultures when such Danes themselves are not respecting anybody. there is soo much inconsistentcy, what does respect mean?

I find it ridiculus that we respect ‘cultures’ but we dont respect people. you can ridicule any danish or world leader or personality but ‘Danish culture is above all’ most sacred!!

does any one agree that this is hypocracy? an interesting paradox.

all though islamically it was wrong for the muslims to behave in the ways they did or to say what they said. I dont understand why the west(generalised) are geting in a fuss about it, after all its just FREEDOM OF SPEACH, right???? or is the wests freedom of speach correct whilst, the muslims must ‘forgive and forget’ right Thomas? Is this your understanding?
OR IS IT, BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS ARE THE IMMAGRANTS AND ONLY THEY MUST FOLLOW THE LAW OF THE LAND. how strange that a people make laws and they dont follow them…
In that case the west should do all muslims a favour and just send them back home.(trust me i really believe they should just be deported back to their countries- these fundamentalists)

“Culture is not an absolute and yellow culture is not inferior to blue culture or the other way around. However, in both yellow and blue countries it must be acceptable that some people wear glasses in shades of green.”

thomas i agree with this.

apology if my other message seems a bit fired up, its more of a plea that people ask themselves fundamental questions in life, example: is my culture right in this aspect? does my culture lack respect? should i support it wholeheartedly even when i can see it is causing offense? do i like offending people, or being offended?

I mean personally there are some things about my culture which is unfair, like the preference of boys to girls(vry strange, thu these people say they follow islam). i neither agree to this nor keep silent about it.

The day when everyone keeps silent and accepts that injustice is ok and we have got to get over it is the death of humanity people.

people have to talk make themsleves heard, argue for the truth about things, respect each other without harming or offending each other, and looking down upon each other.

im off to bed…

Ayaan,

I hope you had a good night’s sleep :)

I am sorry to disappoint you, I was trying to explain my point of view. Let me know what you are referring to, because maybe it is a misunderstanding from either your side or mine.

I don’t think my view on Muslims has been ‘ruined’ in any way. I see that there are friendly, critical, and hostile Muslims just as there are friendly, critical, and hostile Danes, Christians, Americans…

You ask: “what kind of a culture is it that you insult people, you call that civilization?”. I am a bit sad about your question, because, as I read it, it is based on intolerance of other cultures.

In my view, a foreign culture is a local phenomenon that should not be ‘weighed and measured’ based on ones own culture. A large part of a culture is the customs and beliefs about what is good/bad, right/wrong, acceptable/taboo, etc. If these are taken out of their original settings and are analyzed based on ones own culture, then they are analyzed out of context. One can compare and even point out the differences, but one should not judge or demand a change.

Denmark is a very large bacon exporter and Danes enjoy eating pork so much that most of the food you could call ‘Danish cuisine’ is based on pork. Danes also like eating beef, not as much as pork, but there is a significant consumption of beef as well. In Denmark this is absolutely acceptable.

In your country, pigs are unclean animals, so it is not a big surprise that pork for the Middle East is not a ‘big export hit’. The Hindus revere cows and eating a cow is not seen as something desirable, so it is not a big surprise that beef is not a ‘big export hit’ there.

These are cultural differences and NONE OF THEM ARE WRONG, THEY ARE JUST DIFFERENT. If someone gets insulted over that Danes eat pork then it is their problem, because in the Danish context it is ‘right’. If Danes want to force the Arab world to change their view on eating pork that would be just as intolerant and wrong as if a Muslim would demand that Danes should stop eating pork.

You bring up your mother, well in general. I know that you, based on your culture, would find it insulting if I made fun of your mother, but, based on my culture, I would not find it insulting if you made fun of my mother. This does not mean that I love and respect my mother any less than you do yours, but in Denmark we have a different perspective on abstract issues like insults and honor. Different, but not wrong!

If somebody says something funny about my mother then I would know that he is not really insulting my mother but he is trying to get a reaction from me – on the ’surface’ he is talking about my mother, but the ‘message’ itself has nothing to do with my mother. Regardless of whether it is a joke or a provocation, it does not reflect the view he holds of my mother. Of course it would be possible to insult me by talking about my mother, but then it would be delivered in the form of a solid statement without any form of ironi, sarcasm, or humor. This probably sounds strange to you, but it is not strange to me. Maybe strange or different, but not wrong.

This does NOT mean that Danes do not respect anybody, but we show respect in a different way than you do and we have very few taboos compared to most other cultures in the world. In Denmark, humor is also a normal way of discussing taboos and issues that are grave, horrible, or uncomfortable, but that has nothing to do with lack of respect for the seriousness of the issue. For example, the Danish comedy about incest that came out a few years ago does not reflect that Danes finds incest hilarious or that it is a matter that should not be taken seriously, but it is a way to lower the discomfort barrier that would otherwise prevent us from discussing this grave issue. Again, it is not wrong, just different.

When the Conquistadores came to Middle/South America they saw the local population running around with almost no clothes, having ‘too many’ Gods, and displaying ‘primitive’ behavior. The indigenous cultures were completely different to Spanish culture, so the Conquistadores (conquerors in Spanish) decided that the native Middle/South Americans were UNCIVILIZED. Whether they called the natives savages or infidels doesn’t really matter, because they still set out to destroy the native cultures they considered ‘wrong’ and started slaughtering away.

The point is that the natives DID have a culture and they WERE a civilization, but based on greed, arrogance, and intolerance the Conquistadores saw it as their divine mission to impose ‘the correct’ culture (based on their own point of view) on the uncivilized population of Middle/South America.

I hope this answers your question, because the culture that makes fun of people and issues as a natural part of communication is the Danish culture, and yes, I do call it a civilization ;)

If Muslim Conquistadores (the rabid Danish Imams and, now, a large part of the Muslim world) see it as their divine mission to impose ‘the correct’ culture on the uncivilized population of Denmark, then it should not come as a surprise that they will not be met with kisses and flowers.

To me, it doesn’t matter whether a group of Conquistadores hold the Bible or the Koran (or their ‘Danish birth certificate’) in their hands because trying to ‘civilize the uncivilized’ is the ultimate form of intolerance and racism. In Denmark, we are proud of that we have won our peaceful battle against the Christian theocrats and we will peacefully battle the Muslim theocrats as well – in our Danish way.

This does not mean that we do not tolerate religious believers, just that we will give them resistance if they stick their heads out too far and start displaying Conquistadores behavior within our cultural borders.

What I am trying to explain is that I have no right to tell you, in the Muslim countries of the world, how you should run your countries within your own borders or that you must adopt Danish culture. That is the reason why I find it offensive when Muslims all over the world are pushing to ‘correct’ my culture.

There really is no difference between whether it is about eating pork or drawing caricatures of Mohammed, because both are ‘right’ in Denmark even though they may be ‘wrong’ in the Middle East. That is why I am defending Danish culture, because I am willing to respect your culture if you are willing to respect mine. All I am asking is that you accept that we are different – because, let’s face it, we are. But neither of our cultures are wrong.

You are absolutely right, it is necessary to discuss whether Danish culture lacks respect for Muslims…in Denmark I may add. But that requires that both Muslim and non-Muslim Danes are given enough breathing room to take the discussion without interference from abroad. Believe it or not, but the caricatures DID start a healthy discussion about this last year when they were first published, but the ‘international crisis’ has damaged the discussion quite a bit. Last year, moderate Muslim and non-Muslim Danes were in charge of the discussion, but today it has been hijacked by the Danish and Muslim extremists in Denmark.

I hope that all the hooligans will come to their senses soon so we can continue the debate in Denmark, because if we have to wait for them to run out of matches or embassies then it can take quite a while.

In Denmark, we need to deal with both the radical Islamist and the radical Danes, but as long as the riots continue the more fuel will be poured on the fire and the more Danes will be drawn towards the intolerance of the Danish People’s Party and the more Muslims will be drawn towards the crazy Imams. The longer this crazy shit draws out the more mess (intolerance and polarization) will have to be cleaned up afterwards.

I admire your Jihad on abusing women in the name of Islam (yes, I do have a Koran and I do know that the original meaning of Jihad is not Holy War) and you have my full moral support from here. I have added ‘from here’ because contrary to a certain President and his Conquistadores I don’t believe that a cultural change should come from the outside, regardless of whether we are talking about cluster bombs, depleted uranium bullets and other weapons of mass destruction or burning down embassies.

What separates a boy from a man, a girl from a woman is: Maturity. Most of us are looking at the incident as per se..unfortunately there are still people..such as the 3 stooges..living in their own world and in a state of denial..ranting away incessantly about irrelevant issues..really sad. As promised..my dear Thomas…and your good friends.. especially the ‘wise’ person above…lol..the following will more or less summed up what i have to say to u.
” I regret the fact that the controversy started in my own country when a newspaper chose to publish the cartoons in a naive effort to demonstrate freedom of expression. It happened last autumn, and at that time I argued publicly against what I regarded as an insensitive act, because it hurt the other people’s religious feelings. It was also an unnecessary provocation, and constituted in itself a caricature of our cherished freedom of expression, that is guaranteed in our Constitution. As my father (an old journalist himself) used to say: Freedom of expression provides a right to say what you think but it is not an obligation to do so.” Well said…a true mark of a leader. The wise statement was written by..none other than..UFFE ELLEMANN JENSEN..the former foreign minister of Denmark 1982 to 1993.