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If the Netherlands becomes the first European country to ban the burqa and other Muslim face veils this month, Hope says she'll resort to wearing a surgical mask to dress in accordance with her religious beliefs.
"I'll wear one of those things they wore during the SARS epidemic if I have to," said the Dutch-born Muslim, one of about 50 women in the Netherlands who wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.
Last December, parliament voted to forbid women from wearing the burqa or any Muslim face coverings in public, justifying the move in part as a security measure.
The cabinet is awaiting the results of a study into the legality of such a ban under European human rights laws, before making its final decision. The results are expected in the second half of this month.
"This is an enormous victory for traditional Dutch decency," said Geert Wilders, the populist member of parliament who first proposed the burqa ban, after hearing parliament had backed it.
"The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."
The Dutch may have been among the first to legalize cannabis, prostitution and euthanasia — earning them a reputation for tolerance — but they are now in the process of imposing some of Europe's toughest entry and integration laws.
Famile Arslan, a Dutch-Muslim lawyer, believes a ban would only reinforce today's polarized climate, and prompt more women to wear the niqab as a form of protest.
"We are very scared that what starts with a ban on the burqa will end with a ban on the hijab," she said, referring to the Muslim headscarf worn by thousands in the Netherlands.
"A country once known for its tolerance is now becoming known for its ignorance," she added, stressing public opinion of the Netherlands' 1 million Muslims had hit an all-time low.
In 2004, France controversially banned overt religious symbols such as Muslim headscarves, large Christian crosses and Jewish skullcaps from schools, arguing they were contrary to its separation of church and state.
In the same year, the Belgian town of Maaseik banned burqas, by adapting existing laws which require people to be readily identifiable in public.
The fact that the potential new law is consistently spoken of as a "burqa ban" also spreads confusion and reveals ignorance about Muslim customs.
"I think the niqab and the burqa are a little bit extreme and can I understand why people want to see a woman's face," said 16-year-old Kaoutar Yakubi, who chooses headscarves ranging from bright pink to black depending on her mood.
"But I don't think there should be laws governing how a person dresses — it is their choice."(Reuters)
Maybe if the burqa is something like this:
or maybe if the were like how Hussein Chalayan shows them, it would be art and fashion!!
Then it would be acceptable in the west.
PS. Burqa is similar to a niqab, the burqa covers the wearer's entire face except for a small region about the eyes. There is a misunderstanding that the burqa is like abaya (a long garment used by Muslim women), which is not true.
{ 85 } Comments
Evry one have the right to wear whatever the hill the want.
excellent posting as usual.
I've always took a stand against the wearing of the niqab, I believe that it is totally not mandatory, I guess that many Imam's cannot disagree with that!
The situation is so differnet when it comes from a western point of view, especially at this time after the cartoons issue, the security argue is somehow strong, but I guess it is nothing but a cover…
well everyone has their school of thought when it comes to the niqab. i dont believe it is mandatory either, unlike the hijab. what is allowed in hajj should be allowed in public.
anywho, the replacing it with the surgical mask is just a brilliant idea. if nothing more than it being a big "up yours" to 'the man'
I second Hamede…
This is becoming more of a joke now…
If may ask this question,
Why is it that when ever a western country decides to allow or ban something, that is contrary to the beliefs of some Muslims, every one automatically assumes that it is against Islam.
Remember that many Arab and Muslim courtiers do not even allow a westerner to wear a religious symbol or in cases like Saudi Arabia, no woman is allowed to walk the streets without covering up or she risks getting waked with a stick by the religion police, even if she was not a Muslim… It seems that it is hypocritical to always point out the flats of the European nations but never the faults of the oppressive regimes.
As for the Birka many Muslims if not most agree that the Birka is not a required part of the Muslim women’s Dress.
And please understand I am not against Islam or against women wearing a Hiram or a Seek man wearing a Turban and so on …but a Birka is a little much don’t you think? Especially in a western country.
Lets try to be a little more objective.
Being a westerner, we have a need for a certainment of security. I only believe that for security that for a drivers license we need to see a face. A covered face is not acceptable. All religions aside, security is more important. Islam is not an issue. Identity is.
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
If you need to hide your face you are hiding something. Sorry but that is reality.
This brings be back to the pictures I saw of beaches from before the 1930's. Full coverage of everyones bodies at the beaches.
If you can't trust your wife whatever she wears and you need your religion to control her. You have a problem. Sorry but I have a problem with that. If I am wrong, please explain it to me.
I am still trying to understand, but there are so many things that do not make any sense.
I think they wear it just because they feel so VERYYY strongly about it. I don't want to laugh at this racoon mask, but that's precisely the reaction I have heard from other Arab/Moslem women. Without defending it, but trying to understand it, I think they are so very afraid of uncovering themselves because their belief in this thing is so real. It's the psychology of it that is most interesting to me. I think when they go far beyond what is required of the Koran, there is a very different meaning behind it. Also, as I understand it, it's not about trusting your wife, it's about trusting other men around her. This subject was covered on the other thread also. I think we all really honestly have to ask ourselves a question, "If it were Tibetans that wore this thing, would we be talking about security as an issue?" I hope it is not racially motivated, but by the other laws passed such as in France, I cannot help but wonder. What do they allow at Carnival,that night of intrigue when all are hiding behind a disquise? Masks always sort of scared me because I don't know what is behind them. In this case we do know, and is that what we are trying to uncover and lay bare? Just a thought.
Tibetans are included in my questions. Also is Tammy Fay Baker. What are you hiding?
When I met my wife-to-be she wore minimal make-up. I asked her why she wore it. She said she wore it to be beautiful. I asked her if she would be beautiful without it. She didn't know.
A long story short-after we didn't know if we would ever see each other again-by fluke we met on a back road the we never drove before. We eventually joked about make-up. Next time we met she had no make-up. SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL! KNOCKDOWN GEORGEOUS! nothing hidden, everything exposed (her face).
All I am saying. Don't hide anything. If you hide it, please be it that you are worried about germs. A face is the worlds way of recognition.
The only face I want hidden is Bush's.
Ok Kimmy, I'm LAUGHING OUT LOUD at the Bush comment. Good one!
I'm with you, and everyone else who thinks this way. I wear makeup 3-4 times a year for very special occasionsbecause MY husband prefers it that way and it takes so much less time in the morning to get ready. I'm with you on that too. I wasn't really saying the Tibetan thing the way it might have come across. I was more trying to understand OUR need to uncover them when they want to remain anonomous. I personally think one of the real issues is that we associate this mask with radical Islam, their costume so to speak, and we might be trying to strip them of that when the woman just might be a bedouin woman coming to the country for medical treatment. I think we might be attacking a symbol as much as we are talking security. If there are only 50 of these women in Denmark, maybe we can put a tatoo on their hand so they can be indentified. No, don't laugh at me, I'm not joking. Most of these women also wear henna tatoos on their hands for weddings and other celebrations. It might sound crazy, but maybe it would be a compromise. That way they could still hide, you and I and others could say it's rediculous, and everyone's happy.
If people have the right to go out half naked then they can go out fully covered too.As a non muslim,I have some reservations,increasing lately,about how some muslim girls are treating their hijab,and how they're wearing it.( I saw one wearing hijab and jilbab with a glittery picture of a girl in a bikin,let alone tight jeans and clear tight tees on others)but no one can deny people their right to wear(or not) whatever suits their beliefs.
I agree that women covering against their will is wrong. Some, admittedly, do so out of an order by their family or husbands, something that I cannot condone. However, the majority of the women I know that cover themselves do so out of their own free will. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they like, hijab, makeup, nothing. Your rights and opinions should not violate those of another individual.
A mandatory tattoo for identification!?! That's going too far. It is a breach of human rights, one which we've seen in the past. For i.d. purposes, covered women can carry a photo i.d. (passport, national or state) that shows them without the covering. If need be, they can be taken aside and privately show their faces to a female official.
The "security" line is a front. It is being issued by westerners whose paradigms have difficulty including another, driven by fear and ignorance. We can and should do better than that.
It IS illigal to cover your face in Denmark and it IS because of security and NOT because of racism.
As every other country in this world, Denmark has its social problems as well. In the '70s and '80s it was the remnants of the hippie movement that was 'fighting' society by occupying empty houses and refusing to pay rent and taxes (that is one of the reasons why we have the 'Free Town' called Christiania - not because of Christianity, but we have had kings called Christian).
These 'rebels' wore ski masks when the police would come to remove them from the houses. One of the famous video clips from that time was actually a guy in a ski mask throwing a toilet out from a 2nd floor window to hit the policemen working on breaking down the front door. The ski masks were an attempt to hide their identity and there was actually a joke: "Who threw the toilet out the window? It wasn't me, it was the guy with the ski mask!" But, as there was a limited amount of 'rebels' in the house, it was possible to identify people by the clothes they were wearing, so there was no law against covering ones face.
In the late '80s or early '90s a new type of 'rebels' emerged, the 'autonomous' who were demonstrating in large groups of at least 50, but most often more than 150 at the time. These left-wing extremists and social outcasts are the ones you see all over Europe demonstrating against 'globalization' by tearing everything apart. These vandals would throw bricks against the police trying to disperse them and prevent them from destroing stores and public property. These violent demonstrators were also wearing ski masks and because they normally dressed in black clothing it was extremely difficult to identify who participated in the rock throwing from the video footage. Therefore, some time in the mid '90s a law was introduced which banned covering your face in general (covering the mouth and nose area).
The law does not say 'ski mask', because then the 'autonomous' would have options to use ice hockey masks or even burqas to cover their identity!
Of course the 'autonomous' still bring out their ski masks when demonstrating, but most often the police will know that a demonstration is in the making, so they are forced to show their faces on their way to and from the demonstrations (and allow the police to identify known vandals). Announced demonstrations are legal as long as they are peaceful, but there is always a small subgroup that will take it to the next level and provoke the violence. The law against face covering allows the police to focus their attention on the part of the demonstrators that are most likely to start the violence.
The Danish law forbidding covering ones face is there for security reasons, so if it conflicts with a few Muslim members of Danish society, that is just too bad. If the law had said 'burqa' or 'Islamic face cover' then it would be a racistic law, but it does not! In fact, it is so un-racistic that it is equally forbidden for everybody regardless of religion, sexual preference etc.
In reality, the law is selectively enforced in the sense that if it is clearly a child who is wearing a ski mask because of the cold then the police would not dream of writing a fine to the parents for covering up the face of their child. If a muslim woman walks alone, then she is not considered a threat either and the police will not intervene. The only time it could be a real problem for Muslim women is if they happen to walk in a group, on the day of an announced demonstration, and in the area of the demonstration or on streets leading to the demonstration. But, if they break the law, that is the risk they have to accept.
On a different note, I actually find this whole 'burqa in Western Europe' issue a bit funny, because the Muslim women wear the burqa to prevent men from looking at them, but since it is a very 'weird' sight for most Europeans it actually attracts attention - and thereby accomplices the exact opposite as was intended.
Mougly,
This is not about assumptions that this is against Islam or not (although to some it is), however, we can't compare West to Muslim countries.
In Muslim countries, some of them, practicing anything other than Islam is forbidden. Wearing any religious icons other than Islam is forbidden, like in Saudi, but this is the law in Saudi Arabia. So, if you chosen to live in Saudi, you have to adhere to their laws.
Contrary to the case here. There is no law that bans wearing anything (or even NOT wearing anything). So, when a country with this type of values decides to change and ban wearing something like Burqa/Niqab, it looks weird. Unfortunately, Burqa is used by very small minority of Muslims. In fact, most schools of thoughts ban wearing it, but they don't enforce that.
Thomas,
Thank you for the explanation of face covering for security reasons. How this applies to women wearing a covering, I don't know. I don't think the Muslim women in Denmark are throwing bricks or toilets at anyone, so to arrest them for law breaking would be a form of prejudice. As you stated, the law is not inforced in certain instances. This should be one of them.
nor is the law enforced in certain instances (whoops)
Raymond,
We have emancipated women in Denmark, so there are just as many women among the 'autonomous' as men and they are throwing bricks as well - even if they can't throw the bricks as far as the men
I am not saying that Muslim women with Burqa WILL be stopped or that they ARE being stopped, merely that they run the risk if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the woman with the burqa is wearing a long (even black) dress she will probably not be mistaken for a violent demonstrator, and in that case the law is not enforced.
It really is not a big problem, so there is no reason to make it a big problem by calling it racism, prejudice, or intolerance.
Radical Islamists are no better than radical secularists. All of them think they know what is best for you and all of them want to force it on you. I hate them both equally.
glad to hear.
not the hate (abu sinan) … the lack thereof (thomas)
Hey guys, I made a major blooper with the tattoo suggestion. When I thought about it, it probably sounded like Nazi Germany and that is not at all what I was trying to say. The identification tag is a much better suggestion. Also keep in mind, your picture must be on your passport. This is a big issue in Saudi Arabia and I don't know how they have dealt with it but suffice it to say thier pictures ARE on their passports due to international law. Many of these women are so traditional that you also have to factor in their superstitions. Maybe it is in the Koran, maybe it is not, but they have a saying "il a'x" which some who are highly superstisious believe prevents them from having their pictures taken because it invites in evil. I am probably not explaining it very well. Suffice it to say, I think these particular people are NOT getting passports to travel anywhere. I was unaware that Denmark had these laws, I think it is every nation's right to pass laws as they see fit. I might not like them, witness I do not like many of the laws in Saudi Arabia, but I had to live with them.
If you permit me and want to read this, let me explain my position.
Way back when I lived in Saudi Arabia, my family was westernized very much, but I also knew many who weren't. My Arabic tutor was traditional and wore the veil, but took it off in her home where she welcomed me with open arms and hospitality. My grandmother who helped raise me died in Saudi six weeks after I brought her there. When she died, within a day, my house was full of women coming to wish me their condolences. Many of these women I did not know, many of them wore a full veil and some wore this thing. They took them off when only women were in the room and I got to see them. Out of respect to my family they were there for several days as is their custom My husband knew not to enter because they were uncovered. Although these women did not know me, they were coming to me to share my pain. So I guess it just doesn't bother me that this covering of themselves is their custom, because I know their other customs as well. I have sat next to many of the same on planes and seen them in Europe. It never was a threat to me, when my sister-in-laws laughed, I didn't laugh as loud. I wish so much that all of us who claim to be tolerant would continue that tolerance into this subject and except them for what they believe. I also might note that the habaya allowed my sister-in-law to smuggle a kitten into Saudi Arabia when I, uncovered with a habaya could not. So the flip side of my arguement is understandable.
Hope I didn't ramble, just an opinion based on my own experience.
Robin,
As is Judaism, tattoos are forbidden in Islamic law. That doesnt mean some traditional cultures in the Islamic world do not do tattoos, just that religious Muslims would not consider getting tattoos.
Abu Sinan,
I honestly didn't know that, but it makes sense when I think about it I never saw an Arab with a tattoo. Thanks for the info and I really wasn't trying to be horrible when I suggested it, just trying to find ANY compromise. that might work out of respect for both party's concerns (security vs religious or cultural custom). In this case I came up with a stupid idea and never would have said this in even a joking manner if I had known.
Shukran!!!
To continue about hiding faces. Have you seen any pictures of super models without their make-up? They are ugly! Everything from the west is nothing more than commercial hype. Whatever happened to honesty? Most people will never fit into a models dress. We are living a lie. Our women are told that they are too fat. We are told that we smell bad. We are told that we eat all the wrong things.
Everything we are told is supported by big corp. To me that is the problem. The Muslim worlds have no access to these lies and they rebel to our influence.
Can you blame them? I can't.
Excuse me while I pull more hair out of my head before my next application of Rogaine.
Another continuance. Rogain is another western farce. Going bald is a natural thing. Why can't we in the west accept it?
Why can't people in the west cook food? Everything is precooked and packaged in the freezer. Whatever happened to home cooking?
We get upset about a religious belief and we are obsessed about about family values when those values are prepackaged and frozen for our comfort.
We in the west should look at ourselves before we criticize anyone else.
I still don't believe in covering up ones face. But we are lying to ourselves about what is right and wrong.
Basic assumption: big corp. are telling us what is right and wrong. And like sheep, we listen. If the Arab life doesn't fit in their world, we are told that they are wrong.
Sorry for my rambling but I think that if the big corp. were gotten rid of the world would be better of.
Kimmy,
Sincerely I ask you with face unhidden, who is big corp,? I'm almost certain you mean religion, but I'm pulling MY hair out trying to read between your lines. BTW, my dad's an atheist and I love him to death, a very good man who speaks to me with utter clarity. Thanks and peace. I hope Haitham doesn't mind the slight digression of subject for a small amout of space.
The big corp. are the pharmaceuticals, GM, GE, insurance companies and so on. Everything is dependant on the big buck. Nothing is dependant on the person or the people. The rich get richer and the poor get more down trodden. And the Arab countries are being pushed down the list. Except the rich individuals there and here.
Break them up and the world will be better off because everyone now has a chance to improve without billions of dollars putting them down. These big corp. are putting small businesses out of business to protect their control of the market.
Kimmy,
Thank you for your clarification. I agree!!!!!Every single decision being made here in the U.S. is being made to benefit the big corp. It's downright frightening. Spreading Democracy? Bah humbug you bunch of liars!
Robin
Let's face reality in NA. The CEO of IBM sold off the money losing division of computer makers. He got a $20 mil bonus for his deed.
That $20 mil could have helped a lot of single mothers, it could have helped a lot of poor people, it could have helped a lot of starving children in schools. How about children in other countries?
This is an example of capilatism gone wrong. The rich (help) protect the rich.
Proffesional sport players get $5 to 20 mil. a year. Children around the world die of starvation and disease and we support this?
No wonder the Muslims hates the great satan. Such inequality.
We can't even help our own people let alone anyone else.
We have great excess, but it is only with the rich and the professional sports.
Let us get back to an honest pay for an honest days work.
Let us limit these excesses and pass the extras to people who need it!
Kimmy,
I think NA is North America,right? I'm really bad at identifying these things. Just found out two days ago what BTW means (by the way, if you don't know)
Kimmy I absolutely 100% agree with your statement. My atheist father is also a semi-socialist. He has taught me alot about humanity. Sometimes he gets pessimistic, but in the long run always tries to find an answer which will benefit everyone.
Kimmy, I don't seek great wealth either. It gives me no satisfaction.
I'm afraid we're getting off topic though so I'll leave it at that. It's the burka thing and I think we might get zapped for taking up space. Peace
Hey… I just wanted to reply to Kimmy's comment. I can understand how it would be hard for you to accept Niqab (face covering), as it was for me. If you don't mind, let me narrate a story to you (which I myself am still trying to understand). I come from a fairly religious Muslim family, born and raised in the US. My father (an Imam and muslim leader in our community) had never told my sisters or I to ever don the hijab or burka…it was a choice purely left up to us. Both of my two sisters and I decided to wear the hijab first, and ended up wearing burkas as well because we were proud to display our religion, and because in the end, nohting can compare to the peace one feels knowing that you have fulfilled an obligation Allah (swt) had bestowed upon you. To us, it was not demeaning or belitteling a woman by covering herself up, but rather liberating because (as stereotypical as it may sound) most men simply do not find a woman in a drabbish color burka attractive! They did not judge me on how my body or outward appearance was, which made me alot less self conscience. (In fact I feel the most self conscience when I'm at a party where i'm not wearing my burka or hijab, where i have to consistently fix my skirt or shirt or hair!)
Now, (forgive me for winding on…) on to the topic of Niqab. My older sister Ayesha, became very pious over the years. She became more religious and I think, truly found Allah when she needed Him most. This of course affected her character, and the first change I noticed was the relative air of calmness around her. She would let nothing bother her; something which I can only fathom at, because I tend to get pissed off fairly quickly… People would say the most hurtful things to her, and many times, she would brush it off by shrugging her shoulders and looking the other way. (This is not as some might say, "letting people run over you," but instesad is something called PATIENCE, a wisdom that not everyone is gifted with.) And then slowly (over 6 months to a year period) I noticed her style also changed… she started wearing her hijab lower on her face (so as to cover more of it). I would always get really annoyed at her saying, "Wear your hijab right!!" at which she responded by shrugging her shoulders (making me even more annoyed). Then slowly and over time, (another six months or so) she started at first to cover her face lightly with her hijab, then pin her hijab in a style which also covered her face, and finally she started wearing full time niqab. I simply couldn't understand it then, as to WHY she wanted to cover her face… I felt that people stared at her more when she went out in public, and my mom (a very religious women herself) surprisingly told her not to wear it becuase she felt it was not needed in a society which was so safe, and that by wearing Niqab, Ayesha would subject herself to more danger. Ayesha replied that she wore niqab not for protecting herself, but sincerely to please Allah(swt), "just because its not an obligation, doesn't mean I SHOULDN'T do it!" So, my point (for those patient souls who are still reading
) is that in the end, the "level" of covering yourself is a deeply spiritual decision. To me, a jelbab and hijab were sufficient to meet the requirements Allah had set out for a woman in the Quran. For my friend (whom just started wearing hijab a month ago), a hijab accompanied by loose jeans and t-shirt were the answer. To my sister, the wearing of a niqab (face covering) and burka and hijab was what she felt best in. In the end, it was a GRADUAL, and deeply spiritual choice of what you would wear. (And I feel this is true for anyone who decides to make a change they truly care about in thier life; it is NOT a simple 'wake up the next morning' and its done type of thing.) Its not as though Ayesha had turned into a different person, or that she wasn't fun and outgoing anymore, it was just the fact that she had added an extra piece of cloth to her face that had us so freaked.
Which is why Kimmy, I can understand how it would be hard for you to accept niqab, because (as a practicing Muslim who frequently sees other women in Niqab), it was hard for me to accept it! I agree with your need for security, yet I feel the main reason your concerned about security is becuase the Niqab is a new concept in the West, which unfortunately has been given a very negative connotation. (am i right?) And like any new thought, it will take some time for the public to get used to it, as well as the average person to meet some women who are niqabi's and talk to them, and find out they are not repressed and uneducated women. I'm guessing that part of the reason American's get scared when seeing someone cover head to toe is the fact that they can't see the person's bodyshape, size, etc. (which is highly unusual here), yet people do not react the same way towards Nuns. Could it be becuase in the public's eye a Nun who covers head to toe has a positive connotation, while a Muslim woman covering head to toe (w/ or w/out a niqab) brings to mind images of the Taliban and other such totalitarian regimes? I truly feel that over time, (hopefully) American's will not feel threatened by seeing a Muslim woman with a burka and hijab, but respect her as they respect Nuns, because wearing Niqab (especially and specifically in the West nowadays) is something only a person who is VERY strong in thier iman (faith), heart, and belief can do… its the ultimate "test" of one's faith.
Okay, kids, story time is officially done now… you may all leave.
(sorry for the extremely long comment!)
Oh, and btw Haitham, great post!
– Sumeyya
Sumeyya,
I wanted to take the time to thank you for you well thought out response to all of us here. By sharing your personal experience it helped me to understand so much. Even I as an American who was married to a Moslem did not understand this angle because my own sisters in law who WERE Moslems but more secular only wore the habaya when they had to in Saudi Arabia. Your thoughtful response has allowed me to see it from your perspective who has had a rather "evolutionary" experience with hijab. I always try to explain to people that there is a real live woman under there but she is only demonstrating her piety such as nuns do, which by the way was an EXCELLENT analogy. Thank you again for your willingness to share and bring clarity to this contraversial issue. Masalama
Thanks alot Robin! That really made me feel better! (I thought no one would even read it! Thank you.
tangent… what was I trying to say? Oh, right, that forcing one to take off niqab is just as horrible as forcing one to wear it. Wa'salaam,
I also wanted to add that I am aware that in some countries (chief among them Saudi Arabia) women must wear niqab or be punished by law… to me this is just as bad as a law stating women can't wear niqab. It is COMPLETELY undermining the law of Shari'ah, (don't know which Shariah Saudi ARabia follows becuase many times, it doesn't seem like the Islamic one). The Islam Prophet Muhammad (saw) taught was one where women were given equal rights as men, and Islam teaches that Allah(swt) made men and women physically and metnally different, and in our difference lies our astounding individual beauty. One of the greatest beauty of a women is that she is capable of concieving and bearing a child. Besides the amazing experience of having a child growing inside of you, Islam says that when a women goes through the pangs of pregnancy, her sins are forgiven, and when she finally gives birth, all her past sins (big and small) are completely forgiven, and she is as sinless as the newborn child in her lap. Have men been given any honor of that sort?? NO… and yet women must consistently try to compare themselves to men when Allah(swt) has made us both different. It's sad that in today's ultra-modern society, the worth of a woman truly lies on how well she does when compared to a man, even though we simply are not comparable!! Society has sunk so low that woman who choose to live at home and raise good, moral, children are said to be "just housewives," and women who are working are said to be "the leaders of tomorrow." Tell me, are the leaders of tomorrow gonna be the women who will probably be dead by "tomorrow" or are they gonna be the children we raise today?
Anywho… (Dang.. again the long comment… I just can't refrain! :P) yet again, I have gone into one my "femenist"
– Sumeyya
Oh, and on a note to Thomas, a Dane. You said,
Muslim women do not wear the burqa JUST to prevent men from looking at them (read my first comment). This issue has been brought up many times, from muslims and non-muslims alike. The point of the matter is, that there are, simply, different types of attention. Do you (assuming ur a guy :)) look at a photo of hijabi women the same as you look at a photo of a Victoria’s Secret ad? The type of attention women want to divert is the second type… In fact the first type of attention, I welcome!
This way, guys (and girls too) come up to me and ask me why I wear the hijab and burka, and I can at least satisfy their curiosity. Anyway, just thought you should know.
Sumeyya,
Again you have given an absolutely beautiful response. You are right, in Saudi Arabia the secular Moslems wear thier habayas only becuase they are forced to. Your explanation brings so much to the dialogue here as a "woman's" point of view. My reaction to the hijab as an American (who this is not part of my frame of reference) is simply to be tolerant. I always wonder why people have so much trouble with it, I guess I just don't get it. But now that you have explained it in this fashion I do. I guess it all depends on who you ask. If you ask someone who has been forced to wear it the conotation is entirely different than from someone such as yourself who has chosen to wear it. Yes, I was aware of the pregnancy and birth beliefs of Islam because my husband said his prayers for me at the time our daughter was born even though I am a Christian he explained this to me. It is such a beautiful belief and gave me great comfort especially after seven hours of hard labor and looking like something the cat drug in when our daughter finally arrived. If you look at my post #25 you will see how I defended the hijab a few days ago. Now, thanks to your explanation, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, I have a much better answer. I don't think it will stop some people from still being intolerant. BUT it will give them the opportunity to make up their mind in an informed manner. You're great BTW, am I to understand you still live in the States (no details necessary)?
Kimmy, I wanted to respond to a few quotes of yours from a few seperate posts of yours.
You said:"Have you seen any pictures of Super-Models without their make-up? They are ugly."
I'm sorry, but who are you to judge who is beautiful and who is ugly?
You sai:"Everything from the West is nothing more than commercial hype."
How can you say something like that? There are millions of people from the West who contribute to the good of man kind on a daily basis.
You said:"The muslim world has no access to these lies and they rebel to our influence."
Well I hate to break it to you, but the Muslim world does have access to our commercial influences. They wear our clothes, wear our make-up, watch our movies, and yet they are still good people. It's called Freedom Kimmy. Freedom to watch and wear whatever you like.
You said:"The rich get richer the poor get more down trodden."
I come from a poor family here in the states and I am now living in an upperclass neighborhood. My child attends private school. I've helped out the down trodden and I don't forget where I came from either. I'm not ashamed of that and I'm certainly not ashamed of my success. There is nothing wrong with it.
You said:"And the Arab countries are being pushed down the list."
The list of what? I don't understand? In case you have forgotten, Arab countries are some of the wealthiest in the world. It's too bad more of that money isn't used to help the poor in other Arab countries. It wasn't Arab countries who came to the aid of earthquake victims in Pakistan and Iran, and it wasn't Arab countries who came to the aid of the tsunami victims. So while you are bashing us for not doing enough, please remember that alot of people who could do more are not doing enough.
You said:"Children around the world die of starvation and disease and we support this?"
Well of course not. Yes, children do die of starvation and disease and no, we are not doing enough as a collective whole to put a stop to it. We all need to work together in making sure that starvation and disease does not take the life of another human being. But pointing your finger and putting all of the blame on Americans isn't very fair. My personal opinion, we are some of the most giving people and generous people in the world. I've seen this with my own two eyes the way we respond to those in dire need brings tears to my eyes. I remind myself all of the time how lucky I am to be living in this glorious country but I will not turn my back on those in need.
You said:"No wonder the muslims hate the great satan."
This is very upsetting to say the least. You insult my country in order to puff up your opinions. It's shallow and it's in bad taste. We are not the great satan and shame on you for saying such a thing.
Sumeyya
I don't dislike women wearing face coverings. I have accepted that.
I just don't accept them to wear them on drivers licenses or other forms of ID.
When I am out shopping I see these thing and I accept them. I talk to everyone and accept everyone. I am not perfect, nor are you. We are living in a world that is only accepting perfection. I am not accepting it.
Sorry if I don't use the proper names because they are pushing my limited mental capacity.
If we ever meet I will accept you, no matter whatever you wear.
Personality is more important than religion to me.
Kimmy,
I'm totally out of it on this one. Are some of these women insisting on wearing the burqua for driver's licences anywhere? That seems like a total oxymoron to me. International law forces Saudi women to put their pictures on passports but their hair is always covered. Since women can't drive, there isn't the licence problem. There you go, isn't that a self-fulfilled dilema!
Sumeyya, perhaps you know the answer to this question
Does anyone else know?
The Netherlands should be embarrassed by their government. Lack of tolerance is ridiculous. The hypocrisy is great. Smoke all the cannabis you want, legalized prostitution etc. but no burqa. I have the solution—-Move to the United States and enjoy the freedom that you seek! This great country offers religious freedoms and was founded on that premise. You are welcome here and you can even set up your mosques to worship as you please. You will not be treated like the French either. It seems to me that these european countries are intimidated by the differences in your culture. We might take a little time to get used to it also and it might create some issues initally but the courts here will address your right to worship as you please.
Anyone reading:
Before anyone thinks the above post is a good suggestion, please google these sites:
New US visa procedure raise concerns
FT.com/World/US-Visa woes cost US $5bn a year
Most Moslems would like to be able to live wherever they want to, be it their country of origin, Europe, Asia, North America. Our constituition grants the freedom of religion, but seriously, is that the topic here? We're talking Denmark, not the US.
Robin,
As you guessed, no where in the world it is accepted to have a covered face photo for an ID. Not even in the most ignorant parts of the Muslim world. I don't know where did kimmy come up with this assumption from. I never heard of a covered face woman claiming the right to use her photo in that shape for any kind of any ID.
Haitham,
I didn't think so because it just wouldn't make sense. After all, aren't pious Moslems not subjected to the laws of the land just like everyone else and do they not agree to follow the rules just like everyone else? Thanks for the info though cause I thought I just hadn't caught something that was out there.
Shukran
For anyone out there. Apparently my suggestions are bad and Robin's are good. Forget what I said. Apparently the US in not a good idea afterall. Don't come here if you are Muslim lest you wish to enjoy religious freedoms. Talk about intolerance. Some people can't stand America no matter what nor do they wish to give it any credit whatsoever. Muslims are welcome to wear their burqas anywhere and anytime they please in America. You can go to all the US bashing websites you want and be deluded by the US is evil rhetoric that is being promoted in these discussion. Sticking to the topic. I reiterate, I wholeheartedly believe that there is a backlash on the Muslim culture and religion. The west is primarily Christian hence the resistance. It is good to get to know other religions and cultures before forming opionions and judging. The Netherlands is intolerant toward Muslims and I think it is regretable.
For anyone out there:
The above reference I gave was giving information about the US seeking to limit the immigration of all Moslems. Since Islam is the second largest religion in the US and growing at breakneck speed, many in the US with zenophobic tendencies are seeking to limit immigration of even more Moslems. Those women who wear the burka are a solid symbol of what many here in the US fear. And though it is true that many of our citizens are tolerant of other faiths and cultures, there is a growing movement here in the US to close off our borders, whether it be to illegal aliens crossing our borders for work or Moslems coming here for an education. I regret that at the US embassy in Saudi Arabia it has become very difficult for Saudi businessmen to get an American visa to come here for legitimate business purposes. Our nation has been sold a package of fear by our administration and the burka is but a symbol of what we should fear to many. So once again, The US is a delicious melting pot of different cultures and ideas but is not necessarily open to all.
This isn't a comment but a few questions to anyone who could answer it!
First I would like to let everyone know that I'm a born American citizen and African descent ( if you don't know what I mean….I'm what some people would like to describe as a black lady). I've also been Muslim about 2 yrs.(not nation of Islam who really aren't Muslim because if they were they wouldn't hate anyone who's not their race…. who in the world is the color white and the color black anyways if you know what I mean). I just wanted to let you know my race so that maybe you can possibly answer my questions the best way you know how when keeping in mind the history of Africans (such as slavery). Oh yeah by the way I also gracefully wear Purdah(veil)so even though this posting is about Denmark I felt as if although I'm not living there or experiencing what the women in veil there are going through I still feel that even though America is the so called free country that I still get more negative reactions from wearing veil than positive reactions meaning that most of the people that I come in contact with daily in public probably wish America would do what Denmark is trying to do. Sorry If I'm falling way off the subject I would just like an possible answer from anyone who may be able to help me understand. Okay my people lets move on!
I hear so much about the American Govt. or whoever and people in America who in general don't like Muslims or are intimidated by them (who by the way are not just Arabs as you have now become aware of, just if you didnt know)and eihter wish they go back to the so called Mid East or where ever they come from or wish that they be stopped from coming to the United States. Surprisingly I hear a huge amount of people of African Descent saying this of course along with people of other races.
Nooooow! Here are the questions…… Who was in this country first? Depending on your answer…. would you say were all foreigners?? would you say that all our ancestors no matter the race are not originally from this land in which somebody NAMED America? would you say that everyone of every race has contributed to the rise of this country? would you say that no one has the right to stop anyone of any race or religion from coming into this land (UNLESS of course they hve evidence not suspicion of terriosm of the person which is not based on their race or religion)?
Thank you for reading if I didnt bore you, I just wanted to get some possible answers.
Sorry, I was working under false information.
This is why I come here. To be corrected about any false information I have picked up over the years.
Listen, listen, listen.
Thank you.
Kimmy, your right on that one… I agree that for security purposes, women must at times, sacrifice the niqab (specifically in situations like going to the airport, driver's i.d., etc. because one must be identifiable.) I had assumed you meant, "Why do women wear niqab at all?" Thanks for correcting me.
My sister and I just recently traveled to England, and she wore the niqab proudly. If they stopped her for a checkup, she simply requested that a woman check her, not a man, and took her niqab off for the woman to see her. (She was actually quite lucky becuase two of the airports she went to are airports where there are MANY muslims, employees and passengers alike, so they knew another woman must check her, and overall, just made our lives easier.) I just wish it was the same way in other places also… for example, one of our connecting flights back to the US was in North Carolina, a place where you won't find too many women in niqab. There my sister was called over after every twenty minutes with the excuse, "your name has been randomly selected by the computer for a check-up." Lame excuse though it was, we had to comply. 
What I said at the end of my other post was that I hope the public at large will learn to accept the niqab also, and niqabi women won't have to go through so many "random" check-ups at the airport, and such things of the sort.
And, Robin, you are completely right when you said that all people are subject to the laws of the land. When one decides to live in a foriegn country, one signs an implied contract to live by the laws of the land. (Which is why, as a Muslim, it would have been wrong for me to say anything against the "random" check-ups because I chose to live in the US, therefore, I must also obey its laws.) If the laws of the land don't agree with your way of life (prime example, France) try to change them, and if that doesn't work, just move! (As a Muslim) it is good to make hijrah, becuase in hijrah there is barakah. (Hijrah means to move, and barakah means blessing. This comes from the Prophet Muhammad (saw)'s times when he was persecuted in Mecca; he and his followers made the Hijrah to Madina, and there was blessing in it because they were allowed to stay and practice Islam feely.)
And yes, I still live in the great ol' US of A.
The US and any other country has a right to control the influx of immigrants. We do not have to allow anyone in and it is a privilege to come here. Our borders have to be secure for security reasons. The US tolerates much illegal immigration because it is compassionate to many. Yes, while it is true that Muslims lately are in the forefront of discrimmination owing to the war on terror, we must find ways to exercise fair immigration laws. I will point out as an example for the tight borders and immigration laws. After 911 a gentleman of Muslim or Arab descent was captured crossing the Canadian border with explosives in his trunk headed for the Los Angeles airport to blow it up. We have to be vigilent knowing that we are in a war with an invisible enemy. Nonetheless, we cannot assume that all Muslims or those wearing burqas are out to harm us. It would be great if we lived in a utopia but we don't.
Kimmy,
Don't assume that everything you read on this site is accurate. There are some very intelligent sounding people on this website but that does not mean that what they point out is accurate. Much is opinion based on bias. Everyone has their agenda. If the information is lobsided you should investigate and be concerned. Aloha! Mahalo!
Oh, just to clarify (I meant to add this w/ my last post but forgot…)
Hijab is the cloth that only covers the head; hair, ears, neck and chest. (notice that this may be worn with jeans/other types of clothing… etc.)
The Jelbab or Burka is the long, flowing gown and comes in an array of styles and textures ranging from the plain black to different shades of bright and pastel colors. It may be slightly fitted (a more professional look) or the second type that is completely loose with no seam lines (the more party wear/formal wear look).
Finally, the niqab, is what covers the face and sometimes the eyes also.
Anyways, hope this helps.
Sumeyya,
Thank you for uncovering the covering reasons
I have not really decided how I feel about covering up in the West, but that doesn't matter, they should do as they please.
You seem to be patient and have good pedagogical skills, so I have a few questions that I was wondering about.
1) As far as I know, the Hijab is banned in public schools in Turkey, but I am not 100% sure. If a Muslim country bans it, then it cannot be intolerance, but there has to be some political or ethnical reason behind it. Can someone shed a light on this?
2) On these pages and on other sites, I see people saying something like "we love Mohammed", "Mohammed is our hero", "Mohammed is the best Muslim" and so on. I know he is the Messenger, but I thought he was supposed to be treated as a telefax that delivers a message without having anything to do with the message itself and not like a popstar who delivers his political message interpreted through his music. Have I misunderstood something or does idolizing have a different meaning?
3) It seems to me that Sharia Law can mean many different things from corporal punishment to spiritual principles. As I can understand there are many different 'rule books' derived from the Koran, but how come? I thought the Koran was supposed to be the final message from Allah/God, so if there are different 'rule books' or interpretations are they not forbidden? Where do the Imams and other preachers fit in, it seems like they are interpreting and politicizing Islam, so is that not forbidden as well? And what about their declarations, bans, and death sentences?
I hope you do not think my questions are stupid, I am asking because I do not know the answers!
Thomas,
Just a short note to you. EXCELLENT questions on your part. I really hope Semeyya comes back to answer them because she DOES have beautiful pedagogical (teaching) skills. Thanks for asking them!!!!
As long i have no right to have a Bible in Saudi Arabia, so long i dont see any reasons to allow burka in europe.
Its funny to see how many religios rights the muslims claims
in Europe, but in their own countries i have no rights to belive what i want.
Can u imagine a Buddist temple in Saudia ? Or Dubai ?
Muslims can pray in groups or hunderts in Paris, in public, can u imagine 300 christians in Saudia praying on streets to Jesus ? Or maybe 300 Buddist in Saudia meditating on streets ?
What u see in Europe is FREEDOM! And many of u , living in ur arabic countries have forgot what freedom is.
Most of u not even tasted freedom in his life.
U dont miss what u dont know. And thats one the ideea behind the burka.
Dont give womans the freedom to BE, control them and u never get ur heart broken.
Burka is a symbol of punishment against womans. THATS y it will be forbidden in Europe.
Not only Netheland.
I hope u can understand my poor english.
Titus,
I DID live in Saudi Arabia and was married to a Saudi. HE smuggled my Bible in for me and I went to a few church services at ARAMCO where they were allowed then (1975). I am NOT defending Saudi Arabian law. But I am defending the individual Moslems I knew. Besides that, one must live by the laws of a county, like it or not. No it's not very nice of them, nor is it tolerant of other faiths. But individual Saudi Moslems are quite a different story
Titus,
Excellent! You made some very strong and rational points. Your writing was very well understood. Finally, someone else with contrasting, balance to what is being disseminated on this site. Muslims want religious freedowm in Europe and the US but Christians, Buddhists and others are shunned in those Muslim countries. What an excellent point. Thank-you Titus for pointing that out. Wow!
I was not aware that Burqas were a symbol of oppression upon women. Can someone out there enlighten me regarding the symbolism behind the Burqa. I am ignorant to that. It has always seemed to me that Burqas were humiliating. Why should a woman hide her face. If God did not want their faces to be shown he would've never given them one I suspect. Please enlighten me, anyone.
Robert,
It's because the WEST and much of modernized Islamic nations see it as a sign of oppression. Pure and simple. They see it as a way to cover them up and de-humanize them. I always tell people, "There's a real live woman under there, just like with any other woman, you really don't know what you're going to get!"
Refer up to post#and read it very carefully. Sumeyya is an American citizen, a Moslem, and her father is an imam (religious man) She gives better information than anyone here as far as I'm concerned because like I told her, "It's straight from the horses mouth". (I meant this as a compliment to her) It really is a GREAT read.
Am I to understand that the Burqa is worn because Muslim men are insecure? They don't trust other men around their wives. If there is not temptation then there will be no attempt to pursue the woman. So men are reduced to predators in the Muslim world. I thought that the Burqa had some religious symbolism. If the Burqa is worn to decrease temptation by men then I think it is silly. No offense out there but that is how I feel.
Robert,
I missed the # in my last post to you. It's #37. What you will find under Sumeyya's burqua is a bright, spunky, American Moslem of I believe (from her name) Arab descent. It will help you understand better "from the horses mouth". It's a really beautiful explanation of her own evolutionaly experience with the burqua. Ciao!
Robin,
Thanks for referring me to #37. It was very enlightening but I still need further explanation as to why Muslim women wear burqas. Why does Allah want women to wear burqas? Please, someone explain. I am curious.
From what I gather about this discussion.
The muslim woman is covering her face to let suitors judge her by what you hear (her personality) not what you see, as is the western way. If she has big boobs, blond hair and is stupid, she is perfect marriage material.
I knew a blind person who was married to a very ugly woman with the greatest personnality and the warmest heart I have ever met.
Any similarities here?
I am learning more every visit. Thank you.
From what I gather about this discussion.
The muslim woman is covering her face to let suitors judge her by what you hear (her personality) not what you see, as is the western way. If she has big boobs, blond hair and is stupid, she is perfect marriage material.
I knew a blind person who was married to a very ugly woman with the greatest personnality and the warmest heart I have ever met.
Any similarities here?
I am learning more every visit. Thank you.
Kimmy,
Thank you for your explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me now. You are right, the western way is to seek the most attractive person with the most education to marry. It may be viewed as shallow by other countries but that is how it is here mostly. By the way, there is nothing wrong with big boobs if that is what you are into. In the west we also take personality into account. I once lived with a beautiful polish woman with a good education. However, I ended the relationship because she had substance abuse issues. I took that into account and decided that I was better off with someone else or even alone. On my second marriage I chose more wisely and am very happy for nine years now.
Robert Ruiz
When I met my wife, she was nothing I was looking for.
I'm 5'10" (and I'm lying) and she was 6' tall. She had no boobs, wide hips and of German descent. (I was told to hate Germans because I was a Danish Jew).
Her personallity was the biggest turnon I had ever gotten from a woman. I questioned her makeup and she removed it. She looked even better. (I was a hippie in the sixties. She was told to hate hippies.)
Long story short. We met in October, engaged in November, she got her diamond in December, she turned 18 in January and we were married on May 11/73. We are still married.
Tollerance and understanding is more important than any religion that doesn't preach it.
If I can accept everything I wasn't looking for, why can't everyone else?
Our views are still totaly different. She lost her mother only last week. She went to church to pray. I sat at home and cried for her and her mother. I am not a believer.
I don't question her, she doesn't question me.
Our love is based entirely on personality, no questions asked.
This makes my wife look even better in my eyes.
The muslim use of the Burqa is now accepted by me because I now understand that my wife could have worn one and I still would have married her no matter what. Her personality was more important.
Robin, thank you. I am sincerely flattered by your comments, and I will try to answer the questions Thomas, a Dane asked as best as I can.
But first, let me address what Robert Ruiz posted earlier:
NO, I refuse to forget what you said. As a citizen of this world, you have every right to say what you think. Never think that what you say does not count, or does not help, it does. I'm glad your here because your bringing a lot of balance to this topic. Your suggestions are not bad at all, in fact, they're enlightening; you made me think from a point of view that I had not even considered. Thank you.
Now, onto what Thomas a Dane asked. I hope I answer these questions truthfully and w/out bias. If I don't, all reading are free to ignore every word I write.
Your first question was addressing Turkey and the hijab ban there. To be truthful, I do not know much about the situation in Turkey, but from what I've gathered, the ban is not stated in law, yet is still enforced. (I am open to corrections here). Turkey, like France, is a secular state, and to my understanding, feared the rise of a militant and fundamental Islam. It thought that Islam would be a hindrance to the modernization of Turkey, and any religious activity was seen as a way to destabilize that concept. But seeing as how the majority of citizens in Turkey are Muslims, stopping the rise of Islam was going to be, suffice it to say, quite a difficult feat. However, the hijab ban did succeed, w/out even needing to be put into law. All universities have to be affiliated with YOK (Association of Higher Educational Institutes) for their qualification to be recognized; Universities were told that if they allowed hijabi women to attend, their qualifications would be taken away; employers were told to get rid of employees wearing hijab or be shut down, and all Islamic/religious schools were forced to close their doors. (Now this is what confuses me, if [assuming I'm correct about this] the ban was never written down in law, per say, how do they enforce it at work? Does anyone know?) The law also extended to men who had beards.
So, in the end, the reason for the hijab ban was a political one, and it seems to me, a cultural one. As I see it, Turkey did not want any Islamic practices because it thought that allowing these practices would not be right in today's time and age — simply put, Turkey's cultural values had changed.
In regards to your question, I feel that this is indeed intolerance. Instead of trying to uphold the democratic state they so revere, they have created a law to silence anyone who disagrees.
In your second question, you asked why it seems that Muslims idolize the Prophet Muhammad (saw), when in the Quran idolatry is an unforgivable sin, correct? Again, there is much ado about culture here (culture is everywhere, can’t ignore it! Forgive me if my constant cultural references are annoying anyone… they really are inevitable…:P). Muslims love the Prophet Muhammad (saw) to the extent that I am even at a loss of how to explain it to you. To the extent that the Prophet Muhammad’s name is ALWAYS followed by the pre-fix (saw) meaning “sallallahu alayhi wa-ali hi wasalam,” which in English means, “May Allah’s peace and blessing be upon him,” or (pbuh). To the extent that not saying the prefix when you hear his name mentioned is a sin. To the extent that Muslim’s are willing to die for his teachings (though the teaching THEY follow may not always be what he intended.)
But “idolizing” him like a god, (as I described above) is quite different.
During Muhammad’s reign, and during the reign of the four great Caliphs (leaders), Muhammad (saw) was considered a “mercy to mankind,” but was still considered a human, therefore accountable for his sins. After the Prophet (saw)’s death, people went beyond simply loving him – they attributed “special” (i.e.- magical) powers to him, and the like. (This is also forbidden in Islam.) The men and women of the time made it a cultural practice to pray to the Prophet (saw); they would go to his gravesite and weep and ask him to grant them their wishes as though he was a god; this was obviously outlawed, but it was not completely wiped out. In every culture that follows Islam, something of those times still exist. An example of that is when a Muslim starts to praise the Prophet (saw) so much, that in one’s own eyes, the Prophet (saw) is raised to the status of God. Another example is that in many Islamic songs, the wording of how they describe the Prophet may be in the manner of a god. (This may not seem a big deal to most, but believe me, it matters. If your saying that Muhammad (saw) is a god, then it completely undermines the monotheistic foundation Islam is built on. It becomes a polytheistic religion, and that, of course, IS a huge deal!) Although this is completely unlawful in all school of thoughts, the Shari’a, the Quran, and the Hadith, many still practice this…well, to each his own, I guess.
But NOT to the extent that they WORSHIP him. A Muslim may NOT pray to the Prophet for anything, no matter how small it is. When a Muslim lays eyes upon something pleasing to the eye, he or she may NOT say, “Glory to the Prophet,” but rather he or she is to say, “Glory is to Allah(swt)” or “Glorified is Allah(swt).” This is such a fundamental part of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) even banned Muslims from depicting a human because of fear of idolatry. (At the time, the non-Muslims (the Quraysh) worshipped idols; they depicted their gods with statues, which is why he banned Muslims from making any type of depiction that resembled any human, specifically himself – to refrain from idolatry… which is also why the whole Danish paper row was a huge deal. Anyways, that’s another issue altogether.)
We believe that Muhammad was sent as a messenger, but also as a guide, the perfect example of what a Muslim should be. He was the perfect Muslim because he followed Allah’s teaching in the way they were originally meant to be followed, which is why you will hear many times, “Muhammad is the perfect Muslim, the best Muslim, etc.” (Just another fact, Muslims follow the Qur’an’s teachings, but a lot of it is based on Hadith, the Prophet (saw)’s way of life, so in fact he was a “telefax” as you say, he did deliver the message. However, he delivered the message not only through Allah’s words, but also by his own actions… another reason why Muslim’s respect him so greatly.) So, in effect, we do love him, as you said, “like a popstar…”
Now, here is where culture came and messed it all up.
I think I’ll save the last to answer later (probably in a couple days)… I have midterms going on this week, and while I’m supposed to be cramming Chemistry into my head, here I am, writing, writing, writing. lol…
Anyhow, I truly hoped this helped, and please forgive me if it was biased… it was unintentional. Take care,
–Sumeyya
PS – btw robin, I’m of southeast Asian decent, from the “representative-democracy-turned-dictatorship” state, Pakistan
And kimmy… I just read what you wrote about choosing your wife based on personality… may we all find the grace and love in our hearts like you have – to truly judge others on personality alone and not looks. I learn new things everyday… thanks.
Please explain (saw).
Kimmy -
(saw) means:
In Arabic: "sallahu alayhi wa'alihi wasalam."
In English: "May Allah's peace and blessing be upon him," or the acronym (pbuh) when written. (Actually, I should have just kept it as (pbuh) to be less confusing, but I kept forgetting to change it… :()
You could have changed it and I still wouldn't have known.
Please explain your shortcuts in you religion so we can understand.
Saw and pbuh mean nothing to us unbelievers. An explanation would be a God send to us. I am trying to understand. Thank you!
I'm sorry, I should have thought of that! (Airheaded mistake … as a lame excuse, I'll say I was distracted by h.w. :))
To keep it short and sweet, (saw) and (pbuh) are marks of respect given to the Prophet Muhammad and to all the other Prophet's as well. This includes Jesus (p.b.u.h.), Moses (p.b.u.h.), Abraham (p.b.u.h.), etc. So everytime we say or hear their name said, we automatically pray for thier forgiveness & blessing. However, it is not obligatory to say this "prayer" upon all other Prophet's, but it is obligatory to say it when the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing's be upon him) name is said. It is not to say that the other Prophet's messages were not as important, or that they were not as respected, but just that Muhammad (pbuh) is the MUSLIM'S prophet, and brought the message of Islam distinctly to us (his followers), so Muslim's should adhere to this. (Of course, forgetting is no big thing, but to not say it when you KNOW you should is considered a mark of disrespect towards the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).
(Now, do you understand what I meant by just how much Muslims revere and respect the Prophet (pbuh)? Even not saying the name properly can be considered disrespectful. I doubt anyone will call one out on it, but it is still understood that you SHOULD say it, as a sign of respect.)
Sumeyya,
Thank you for, as expected, some good answers
They did raise some more questions, but I will let you answer the rest first, so I do not tangle the issues more than necessary.
Good luck on your midterms. If they are based on multiple choice questions as when I spent a year in a US high school, then I can recommend choosing C whenever you are in doubt.
I can be a bit anal, so I analyse and question everything, including the multiple choice phenomenon. What I found was that most teachers would more or less follow the same model: A) Something ridiculous, B) Something that could make sense, C) The right answer (to ensure that it is not 'predictably' the last option), and D) something ridiculous or something that could make sense. Technically, answer D will give you a 25% chance of being right, but by 're-engineering' the teachers I found that it is closer to a 50/50 chance. However, if option C is clearly not the right answer, then B is the better choice
Sumeyya,
Good Morning! It's 5:14 am and as usual I did not need my alarm to awaken me. Thomas is right about the "c" thing. But having prepared a number of multiple choice tests myself when I taught sometimes a teacher just wants to throw you a loop. For some reason on difficult questions the brain (of the teacher) falls into the "C" is the correct answer. Maybe it's just a pattern our minds are wired with. Anyways, chemistry? YUK!! Scarey subject to me for sure. Just thinking about it brings back memories of almost blowing up my high school chemistry lab and my teacher saying, "How did I know this was going to happen?" Anyways, GOOD LUCK!
I want to thank you for answering a question inadvertantly in your above post when you said "the Prophet (pbuh) even banned Muslims from depicting a human because of fear of idolotry" In Saudi Arabia there is the term "il A'ax" (Forgive me because my Arabic is VERY rusty) This is what the bedouins there say quite frequently if you want to take a picture of them. But I misunderstood "il'A'ax" completely. I THOUGHT (as I had been told) that it was a superstition that the bedouins and the "uneducated" had that basically said that having a picture taken opened you up to evil coming in (or something to that effect). Now I'm thinking I was informed by others incorrectly as they percieved it or maybe "il'A'ax" and what you are referring to are connected. I TRULY apologize for taking your mind elsewhere from your midterms. But when they're all over and you just feel like bantering with some of us as a sigh of relief, maybe you could answer this. I could completely understand though if you don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
As in the past, I truly thank you for your responses to us. You have such a "clear voice" it's almost as if you are in the room!
Masalamaa
Hi Again Sumeyya,
Sorry to bother you, but let me give you a short story of why I asked: One time, way back before Saudi Arabia had freeways, my husband (then) and I were driving from Riyadh to Al Khobar. It was a seven hour drive with only one gas station in between in the middle of the desert. EVERYONE had to stop there to refuel. We had our cat in the car with us with a large supply of Evian. Close to the gas station, which was also a watering station for the camels, we came across a bedouin close to the road with his herd. He was a beautiful sight to behold with munitions crossed over his chest and his rifle by his side. I asked my husband to stop. We spoke to him and with his bedouin hospitality he spent time speaking with us. I asked my husband to ask him if we could take his picture and he replied "il A'ax". It was the only time I actually heard someone say it although I knew about it. We politely understood that it was against his belief to allow a picture to be taken. On the other hand, my Swedish girl friend and I regularly took our cameras with us to the souk and the women selling spices allowed us freely to take their pictures. I guess what I'm saying is that it all depended on WHOSE picture you wanted to take. Anyways, sorry for rambling, but I just wanted to share my own experience with "il A'ax"
Good Luck again!
Kimmy,
Your correspondence was well received by me. Lest we be remiss, you are a special individual and not typical by any means when we consider men. Even if you are not a believer you could have accompanied your spouse in her hour of need just to support her. That aside, I believe as you that too much attention is put on physical appearance. My first wife pursured me with poetry and flamboyance. I was not attracted to her that much so I ignored her advances. One day I decided to talk to her and I instantly fell in love with her personality. We married for four years and then the differences became too much. The burqa has some validity from my western perspective but it still seems to me that it is men controlling women. Why don't men put burqas on?
Robert Ruiz
If we had to wear the burqa we would either attract more women or be arrested for robbing banks!
Kimmy,
Was that last comment meant to be funny? Seriously, I could not tell. Anyway, here in the west we try to give women equal rights as men. I don't believe that it is part of what the east believes should be. For example, I consider myself equal with my wife. We both work, wash dishes, vacuum the carpet, do the laundry etc. I am not above her and she is not above me. We make decisions together including financial. That is perhaps why the west and the east have a disconnect. Both of our customs are different. Ours is not necessarily better, it is what works for us. The west views Muslim culture as suppressing women's rights to self-actualize or be all they can be. I understand that in some Muslim or Arab countries women are not allowed to vote or drive vehicles for example. Here in the west we consider that repressive and appalling. What say you?
Robert Ruiz
I have been married for almost 33 years. My wife is religious but not a chuch goer. I don't question her. I don't believe. She doesn't question me. Love is more important.
My wife's brother lives in the US and he called me after we told him that his mother died.
His only comment was that he was sorry but that the whole Muslim people should be wiped off the map because they are all terrorists.
On top of that, he is an ordained minister.
Talk about an ignorant idiot. He doesn't see the religious right bombing abortion clinics in the name of God.
Earlier I was joking.
I find that religions are the main problems of our world.
Usually it is the extreemists, but the moderates are not speaking out, and that is just as bad. On both sides!
Hello all
I was just reading some of the comments and couldn't help shaking my head, the idea of the Birka being a tool used to get the man to fall in love with the personality not the looks, is an outrageous one and could not be further from reality…ultra conservative Muslims who demand that women wear the Birka do not allow or commonly practice dating, or (lets get to know each other before we marry) thing…marriages are usually arranged by the families.
Mougley,
The irony of your statement is that "I" think that it can still reinforce Sumeyya's statement. In Saudi Arabia, marriages are very often between cousins who DO know eachother prior to becoming engaged. But IF the marriage is arranged, they certainly don't DATE prior to marriage. In fact, they are lucky if they get to see each other much at all unless they are outside their country in a freer environment Someone such as Sumeyya would MORE than likely know her future husband because she lives here in the States in a MUCH more open society where she is allowed the freedoms of movement and association. But without her here to contribute we don't know exactly WHAT she would say about this (it's just my opinion) Isn't the whole purpose for the man not to LUST after the woman underneath the burqua? Love in a "platonic" sense is NOT as easily obtainable in a society where men and women don't mix period. Just my own take, but I think you hit the nail on it's head
Mougley,
The irony of your statement is that "I" think that it can still reinforce Sumeyya's statement. In Saudi Arabia, marriages are very often between cousins who DO know eachother prior to becoming engaged. But IF the marriage is arranged, they certainly don't DATE prior to marriage. In fact, they are lucky if they get to see each other much at all unless they are outside their country in a freer environment Someone such as Sumeyya would MORE than likely know her future husband because she lives here in the States in a MUCH more open society where she is allowed the freedoms of movement and association. But without her here to contribute we don't know exactly WHAT she would say about this (it's just my opinion) Isn't the whole purpose for the man not to LUST after the woman underneath the burqua? Love in a "platonic" sense is NOT as easily obtainable in a society where men and women don't mix period. Just my own take, but I think you hit the nail on it's head
i think it is a matter of individual choice what you do or do not wear, when the state is given the power to stop one group wear certain garments where does it end?
Ordering people to eat certain foods at certain tmes?
Telling people what they can dow ith their leisure time?
What to read?
What to believe?
If you want that go and live in Saudia Arabia, but do not give up valuable freedoms because of hysteria and ideaology.
Perhaps this is a sign that you should go back to your mask wearing countries and enjoy the limmited freedoms you get from there. See, every one has given up something to go to the free countries. Free in the sense that you won't be shot for what you say, free that women are equal to men, free to practice your religion with in boundries that do not disrupt others.
Your mask is a sign that to us, USA, France, england ( free countries) that women are still oppressed. Yes, its also a security measure. If you really are against the terror ploters, bombers etc than you should be willing to give up a little old mask to help your new adobtped country out. After all, that NEW country is providing many other freedoms that you would not otherwise enjoy.
This is just show that Europeans have no tolerance and oppress women just as European accuses the Muslim of doing. Banning a woman to wear veil is same as forcing a women to wear veil, both are oppressive to women and violates women's right. Congratulation Dutch people, you guys are just like Taliban.
This just show Europeans don't care about Freedom, Democracy, Diversity, Torlance, Women's Right, Religious' Right, Minority' Right, Human Rights. Next, time they preach those things, just laugh at them as jokes.
It kills the Westerners to think that Muslim women actually choose to wear it. Only thing they want to believe is that women are forced to wear it by men.
Look at the countries like Turkey or Tunisia that government banned it and discourage it. But the Muslim women continue to wear it with big numbers. In the BBC news, they said 65% of the all women in Turkey wear veil.
Very, very small percentage of women are forced to wear it by men but nearly all women wear it because they choose to wear it.
We all know why they can't ban the full Muslim veil or hijab because Nuns wear the same veil for the same reason.
Why is it when nuns wear veil, people consider them holy and pious but when Muslim women wear veil, people consider them 'submissive and oppressed'?
Burqa or not burqa, it's really up to the person who wears it to decide.
But certainly not when they are flying out of the country, surely the passports showing a woman with a burqa is the same as no passport at all?
And I once saw, in Luton Airport, Britain, a woman on passport control, having a look at passports for travellers into England. Fine, but she was wearing a burqa! Surely a question of "don't do as I do, do as I say!" If I, an English man, had a picture in my passport of me with a balaclava helmet on, I would be stopped?
As Salaam Alaykom:
I always wear the Hijab, but in the USA people think you are crazy if you wear the Niqab.
I have a SKYPE account that I use to keep in touch with friends in other countries. I do not know how they do it, but once in a while I get contacted by men from the Middle East, and since I am not married, I talk to them once in a while I talk to them on chat.
More than once, men have asked me to turn on my video, wear my Niqab and take my clothes off.
I think some Arab men have a Niqab Fetish.
Khadija
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