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If the Netherlands becomes the first European country to ban the burqa and other Muslim face veils this month, Hope says she'll resort to wearing a surgical mask to dress in accordance with her religious beliefs.
"I'll wear one of those things they wore during the SARS epidemic if I have to," said the Dutch-born Muslim, one of about 50 women in the Netherlands who wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.
Last December, parliament voted to forbid women from wearing the burqa or any Muslim face coverings in public, justifying the move in part as a security measure.
The cabinet is awaiting the results of a study into the legality of such a ban under European human rights laws, before making its final decision. The results are expected in the second half of this month.
"This is an enormous victory for traditional Dutch decency," said Geert Wilders, the populist member of parliament who first proposed the burqa ban, after hearing parliament had backed it.
"The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."
The Dutch may have been among the first to legalize cannabis, prostitution and euthanasia — earning them a reputation for tolerance — but they are now in the process of imposing some of Europe's toughest entry and integration laws.
Famile Arslan, a Dutch-Muslim lawyer, believes a ban would only reinforce today's polarized climate, and prompt more women to wear the niqab as a form of protest.
"We are very scared that what starts with a ban on the burqa will end with a ban on the hijab," she said, referring to the Muslim headscarf worn by thousands in the Netherlands.
"A country once known for its tolerance is now becoming known for its ignorance," she added, stressing public opinion of the Netherlands' 1 million Muslims had hit an all-time low.
In 2004, France controversially banned overt religious symbols such as Muslim headscarves, large Christian crosses and Jewish skullcaps from schools, arguing they were contrary to its separation of church and state.
In the same year, the Belgian town of Maaseik banned burqas, by adapting existing laws which require people to be readily identifiable in public.
The fact that the potential new law is consistently spoken of as a "burqa ban" also spreads confusion and reveals ignorance about Muslim customs.
"I think the niqab and the burqa are a little bit extreme and can I understand why people want to see a woman's face," said 16-year-old Kaoutar Yakubi, who chooses headscarves ranging from bright pink to black depending on her mood.
"But I don't think there should be laws governing how a person dresses — it is their choice."(Reuters)
Maybe if the burqa is something like this:
or maybe if the were like how Hussein Chalayan shows them, it would be art and fashion!!
Then it would be acceptable in the west.
PS. Burqa is similar to a niqab, the burqa covers the wearer's entire face except for a small region about the eyes. There is a misunderstanding that the burqa is like abaya (a long garment used by Muslim women), which is not true.
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{ 84 } Comments
Evry one have the right to wear whatever the hill the want.
excellent posting as usual.
I've always took a stand against the wearing of the niqab, I believe that it is totally not mandatory, I guess that many Imam's cannot disagree with that!
The situation is so differnet when it comes from a western point of view, especially at this time after the cartoons issue, the security argue is somehow strong, but I guess it is nothing but a cover…
well everyone has their school of thought when it comes to the niqab. i dont believe it is mandatory either, unlike the hijab. what is allowed in hajj should be allowed in public.
anywho, the replacing it with the surgical mask is just a brilliant idea. if nothing more than it being a big "up yours" to 'the man'
I second Hamede…
This is becoming more of a joke now…
If may ask this question,
Why is it that when ever a western country decides to allow or ban something, that is contrary to the beliefs of some Muslims, every one automatically assumes that it is against Islam.
Remember that many Arab and Muslim courtiers do not even allow a westerner to wear a religious symbol or in cases like Saudi Arabia, no woman is allowed to walk the streets without covering up or she risks getting waked with a stick by the religion police, even if she was not a Muslim… It seems that it is hypocritical to always point out the flats of the European nations but never the faults of the oppressive regimes.
As for the Birka many Muslims if not most agree that the Birka is not a required part of the Muslim women’s Dress.
And please understand I am not against Islam or against women wearing a Hiram or a Seek man wearing a Turban and so on …but a Birka is a little much don’t you think? Especially in a western country.
Lets try to be a little more objective.
Being a westerner, we have a need for a certainment of security. I only believe that for security that for a drivers license we need to see a face. A covered face is not acceptable. All religions aside, security is more important. Islam is not an issue. Identity is.
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
If you need to hide your face you are hiding something. Sorry but that is reality.
This brings be back to the pictures I saw of beaches from before the 1930's. Full coverage of everyones bodies at the beaches.
If you can't trust your wife whatever she wears and you need your religion to control her. You have a problem. Sorry but I have a problem with that. If I am wrong, please explain it to me.
I am still trying to understand, but there are so many things that do not make any sense.
I think they wear it just because they feel so VERYYY strongly about it. I don't want to laugh at this racoon mask, but that's precisely the reaction I have heard from other Arab/Moslem women. Without defending it, but trying to understand it, I think they are so very afraid of uncovering themselves because their belief in this thing is so real. It's the psychology of it that is most interesting to me. I think when they go far beyond what is required of the Koran, there is a very different meaning behind it. Also, as I understand it, it's not about trusting your wife, it's about trusting other men around her. This subject was covered on the other thread also. I think we all really honestly have to ask ourselves a question, "If it were Tibetans that wore this thing, would we be talking about security as an issue?" I hope it is not racially motivated, but by the other laws passed such as in France, I cannot help but wonder. What do they allow at Carnival,that night of intrigue when all are hiding behind a disquise? Masks always sort of scared me because I don't know what is behind them. In this case we do know, and is that what we are trying to uncover and lay bare? Just a thought.
Tibetans are included in my questions. Also is Tammy Fay Baker. What are you hiding?
When I met my wife-to-be she wore minimal make-up. I asked her why she wore it. She said she wore it to be beautiful. I asked her if she would be beautiful without it. She didn't know.
A long story short-after we didn't know if we would ever see each other again-by fluke we met on a back road the we never drove before. We eventually joked about make-up. Next time we met she had no make-up. SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL! KNOCKDOWN GEORGEOUS! nothing hidden, everything exposed (her face).
All I am saying. Don't hide anything. If you hide it, please be it that you are worried about germs. A face is the worlds way of recognition.
The only face I want hidden is Bush's.
Ok Kimmy, I'm LAUGHING OUT LOUD at the Bush comment. Good one!
I'm with you, and everyone else who thinks this way. I wear makeup 3-4 times a year for very special occasionsbecause MY husband prefers it that way and it takes so much less time in the morning to get ready. I'm with you on that too. I wasn't really saying the Tibetan thing the way it might have come across. I was more trying to understand OUR need to uncover them when they want to remain anonomous. I personally think one of the real issues is that we associate this mask with radical Islam, their costume so to speak, and we might be trying to strip them of that when the woman just might be a bedouin woman coming to the country for medical treatment. I think we might be attacking a symbol as much as we are talking security. If there are only 50 of these women in Denmark, maybe we can put a tatoo on their hand so they can be indentified. No, don't laugh at me, I'm not joking. Most of these women also wear henna tatoos on their hands for weddings and other celebrations. It might sound crazy, but maybe it would be a compromise. That way they could still hide, you and I and others could say it's rediculous, and everyone's happy.
If people have the right to go out half naked then they can go out fully covered too.As a non muslim,I have some reservations,increasing lately,about how some muslim girls are treating their hijab,and how they're wearing it.( I saw one wearing hijab and jilbab with a glittery picture of a girl in a bikin,let alone tight jeans and clear tight tees on others)but no one can deny people their right to wear(or not) whatever suits their beliefs.
I agree that women covering against their will is wrong. Some, admittedly, do so out of an order by their family or husbands, something that I cannot condone. However, the majority of the women I know that cover themselves do so out of their own free will. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they like, hijab, makeup, nothing. Your rights and opinions should not violate those of another individual.
A mandatory tattoo for identification!?! That's going too far. It is a breach of human rights, one which we've seen in the past. For i.d. purposes, covered women can carry a photo i.d. (passport, national or state) that shows them without the covering. If need be, they can be taken aside and privately show their faces to a female official.
The "security" line is a front. It is being issued by westerners whose paradigms have difficulty including another, driven by fear and ignorance. We can and should do better than that.
It IS illigal to cover your face in Denmark and it IS because of security and NOT because of racism.
As every other country in this world, Denmark has its social problems as well. In the '70s and '80s it was the remnants of the hippie movement that was 'fighting' society by occupying empty houses and refusing to pay rent and taxes (that is one of the reasons why we have the 'Free Town' called Christiania - not because of Christianity, but we have had kings called Christian).
These 'rebels' wore ski masks when the police would come to remove them from the houses. One of the famous video clips from that time was actually a guy in a ski mask throwing a toilet out from a 2nd floor window to hit the policemen working on breaking down the front door. The ski masks were an attempt to hide their identity and there was actually a joke: "Who threw the toilet out the window? It wasn't me, it was the guy with the ski mask!" But, as there was a limited amount of 'rebels' in the house, it was possible to identify people by the clothes they were wearing, so there was no law against covering ones face.
In the late '80s or early '90s a new type of 'rebels' emerged, the 'autonomous' who were demonstrating in large groups of at least 50, but most often more than 150 at the time. These left-wing extremists and social outcasts are the ones you see all over Europe demonstrating against 'globalization' by tearing everything apart. These vandals would throw bricks against the police trying to disperse them and prevent them from destroing stores and public property. These violent demonstrators were also wearing ski masks and because they normally dressed in black clothing it was extremely difficult to identify who participated in the rock throwing from the video footage. Therefore, some time in the mid '90s a law was introduced which banned covering your face in general (covering the mouth and nose area).
The law does not say 'ski mask', because then the 'autonomous' would have options to use ice hockey masks or even burqas to cover their identity!
Of course the 'autonomous' still bring out their ski masks when demonstrating, but most often the police will know that a demonstration is in the making, so they are forced to show their faces on their way to and from the demonstrations (and allow the police to identify known vandals). Announced demonstrations are legal as long as they are peaceful, but there is always a small subgroup that will take it to the next level and provoke the violence. The law against face covering allows the police to focus their attention on the part of the demonstrators that are most likely to start the violence.
The Danish law forbidding covering ones face is there for security reasons, so if it conflicts with a few Muslim members of Danish society, that is just too bad. If the law had said 'burqa' or 'Islamic face cover' then it would be a racistic law, but it does not! In fact, it is so un-racistic that it is equally forbidden for everybody regardless of religion, sexual preference etc.
In reality, the law is selectively enforced in the sense that if it is clearly a child who is wearing a ski mask because of the cold then the police would not dream of writing a fine to the parents for covering up the face of their child. If a muslim woman walks alone, then she is not considered a threat either and the police will not intervene. The only time it could be a real problem for Muslim women is if they happen to walk in a group, on the day of an announced demonstration, and in the area of the demonstration or on streets leading to the demonstration. But, if they break the law, that is the risk they have to accept.
On a different note, I actually find this whole 'burqa in Western Europe' issue a bit funny, because the Muslim women wear the burqa to prevent men from looking at them, but since it is a very 'weird' sight for most Europeans it actually attracts attention - and thereby accomplices the exact opposite as was intended.
Mougly,
This is not about assumptions that this is against Islam or not (although to some it is), however, we can't compare West to Muslim countries.
In Muslim countries, some of them, practicing anything other than Islam is forbidden. Wearing any religious icons other than Islam is forbidden, like in Saudi, but this is the law in Saudi Arabia. So, if you chosen to live in Saudi, you have to adhere to their laws.
Contrary to the case here. There is no law that bans wearing anything (or even NOT wearing anything). So, when a country with this type of values decides to change and ban wearing something like Burqa/Niqab, it looks weird. Unfortunately, Burqa is used by very small minority of Muslims. In fact, most schools of thoughts ban wearing it, but they don't enforce that.
Thomas,
Thank you for the explanation of face covering for security reasons. How this applies to women wearing a covering, I don't know. I don't think the Muslim women in Denmark are throwing bricks or toilets at anyone, so to arrest them for law breaking would be a form of prejudice. As you stated, the law is not inforced in certain instances. This should be one of them.
nor is the law enforced in certain instances (whoops)
Raymond,
We have emancipated women in Denmark, so there are just as many women among the 'autonomous' as men and they are throwing bricks as well - even if they can't throw the bricks as far as the men
I am not saying that Muslim women with Burqa WILL be stopped or that they ARE being stopped, merely that they run the risk if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the woman with the burqa is wearing a long (even black) dress she will probably not be mistaken for a violent demonstrator, and in that case the law is not enforced.
It really is not a big problem, so there is no reason to make it a big problem by calling it racism, prejudice, or intolerance.
Radical Islamists are no better than radical secularists. All of them think they know what is best for you and all of them want to force it on you. I hate them both equally.
glad to hear.
not the hate (abu sinan) … the lack thereof (thomas)
Hey guys, I made a major blooper with the tattoo suggestion. When I thought about it, it probably sounded like Nazi Germany and that is not at all what I was trying to say. The identification tag is a much better suggestion. Also keep in mind, your picture must be on your passport. This is a big issue in Saudi Arabia and I don't know how they have dealt with it but suffice it to say thier pictures ARE on their passports due to international law. Many of these women are so traditional that you also have to factor in their superstitions. Maybe it is in the Koran, maybe it is not, but they have a saying "il a'x" which some who are highly superstisious believe prevents them from having their pictures taken because it invites in evil. I am probably not explaining it very well. Suffice it to say, I think these particular people are NOT getting passports to travel anywhere. I was unaware that Denmark had these laws, I think it is every nation's right to pass laws as they see fit. I might not like them, witness I do not like many of the laws in Saudi Arabia, but I had to live with them.
If you permit me and want to read this, let me explain my position.
Way back when I lived in Saudi Arabia, my family was westernized very much, but I also knew many who weren't. My Arabic tutor was traditional and wore the veil, but took it off in her home where she welcomed me with open arms and hospitality. My grandmother who helped raise me died in Saudi six weeks after I brought her there. When she died, within a day, my house was full of women coming to wish me their condolences. Many of these women I did not know, many of them wore a full veil and some wore this thing. They took them off when only women were in the room and I got to see them. Out of respect to my family they were there for several days as is their custom My husband knew not to enter because they were uncovered. Although these women did not know me, they were coming to me to share my pain. So I guess it just doesn't bother me that this covering of themselves is their custom, because I know their other customs as well. I have sat next to many of the same on planes and seen them in Europe. It never was a threat to me, when my sister-in-laws laughed, I didn't laugh as loud. I wish so much that all of us who claim to be tolerant would continue that tolerance into this subject and except them for what they believe. I also might note that the habaya allowed my sister-in-law to smuggle a kitten into Saudi Arabia when I, uncovered with a habaya could not. So the flip side of my arguement is understandable.
Hope I didn't ramble, just an opinion based on my own experience.
Robin,
As is Judaism, tattoos are forbidden in Islamic law. That doesnt mean some traditional cultures in the Islamic world do not do tattoos, just that religious Muslims would not consider getting tattoos.
Abu Sinan,
I honestly didn't know that, but it makes sense when I think about it I never saw an Arab with a tattoo. Thanks for the info and I really wasn't trying to be horrible when I suggested it, just trying to find ANY compromise. that might work out of respect for both party's concerns (security vs religious or cultural custom). In this case I came up with a stupid idea and never would have said this in even a joking manner if I had known.
Shukran!!!
To continue about hiding faces. Have you seen any pictures of super models without their make-up? They are ugly! Everything from the west is nothing more than commercial hype. Whatever happened to honesty? Most people will never fit into a models dress. We are living a lie. Our women are told that they are too fat. We are told that we smell bad. We are told that we eat all the wrong things.
Everything we are told is supported by big corp. To me that is the problem. The Muslim worlds have no access to these lies and they rebel to our influence.
Can you blame them? I can't.
Excuse me while I pull more hair out of my head before my next application of Rogaine.
Another continuance. Rogain is another western farce. Going bald is a natural thing. Why can't we in the west accept it?
Why can't people in the west cook food? Everything is precooked and packaged in the freezer. Whatever happened to home cooking?
We get upset about a religious belief and we are obsessed about about family values when those values are prepackaged and frozen for our comfort.
We in the west should look at ourselves before we criticize anyone else.
I still don't believe in covering up ones face. But we are lying to ourselves about what is right and wrong.
Basic assumption: big corp. are telling us what is right and wrong. And like sheep, we listen. If the Arab life doesn't fit in their world, we are told that they are wrong.
Sorry for my rambling but I think that if the big corp. were gotten rid of the world would be better of.
Kimmy,
Sincerely I ask you with face unhidden, who is big corp,? I'm almost certain you mean religion, but I'm pulling MY hair out trying to read between your lines. BTW, my dad's an atheist and I love him to death, a very good man who speaks to me with utter clarity. Thanks and peace. I hope Haitham doesn't mind the slight digression of subject for a small amout of space.
The big corp. are the pharmaceuticals, GM, GE, insurance companies and so on. Everything is dependant on the big buck. Nothing is dependant on the person or the people. The rich get richer and the poor get more down trodden. And the Arab countries are being pushed down the list. Except the rich individuals there and here.
Break them up and the world will be better off because everyone now has a chance to improve without billions of dollars putting them down. These big corp. are putting small businesses out of business to protect their control of the market.
Kimmy,
Thank you for your clarification. I agree!!!!!Every single decision being made here in the U.S. is being made to benefit the big corp. It's downright frightening. Spreading Democracy? Bah humbug you bunch of liars!
Robin
Let's face reality in NA. The CEO of IBM sold off the money losing division of computer makers. He got a $20 mil bonus for his deed.
That $20 mil could have helped a lot of single mothers, it could have helped a lot of poor people, it could have helped a lot of starving children in schools. How about children in other countries?
This is an example of capilatism gone wrong. The rich (help) protect the rich.
Proffesional sport players get $5 to 20 mil. a year. Children around the world die of starvation and disease and we support this?
No wonder the Muslims hates the great satan. Such inequality.
We can't even help our own people let alone anyone else.
We have great excess, but it is only with the rich and the professional sports.
Let us get back to an honest pay for an honest days work.
Let us limit these excesses and pass the extras to people who need it!
Kimmy,
I think NA is North America,right? I'm really bad at identifying these things. Just found out two days ago what BTW means (by the way, if you don't know)
Kimmy I absolutely 100% agree with your statement. My atheist father is also a semi-socialist. He has taught me alot about humanity. Sometimes he gets pessimistic, but in the long run always tries to find an answer which will benefit everyone.
Kimmy, I don't seek great wealth either. It gives me no satisfaction.
I'm afraid we're getting off topic though so I'll leave it at that. It's the burka thing and I think we might get zapped for taking up space. Peace
Hey… I just wanted to reply to Kimmy's comment. I can understand how it would be hard for you to accept Niqab (face covering), as it was for me. If you don't mind, let me narrate a story to you (which I myself am still trying to understand). I come from a fairly religious Muslim family, born and raised in the US. My father (an Imam and muslim leader in our community) had never told my sisters or I to ever don the hijab or burka…it was a choice purely left up to us. Both of my two sisters and I decided to wear the hijab first, and ended up wearing burkas as well because we were proud to display our religion, and because in the end, nohting can compare to the peace one feels knowing that you have fulfilled an obligation Allah (swt) had bestowed upon you. To us, it was not demeaning or belitteling a woman by covering herself up, but rather liberating because (as stereotypical as it may sound) most men simply do not find a woman in a drabbish color burka attractive! They did not judge me on how my body or outward appearance was, which made me alot less self conscience. (In fact I feel the most self conscience when I'm at a party where i'm not wearing my burka or hijab, where i have to consistently fix my skirt or shirt or hair!)
Now, (forgive me for winding on…) on to the topic of Niqab. My older sister Ayesha, became very pious over the years. She became more religious and I think, truly found Allah when she needed Him most. This of course affected her character, and the first change I noticed was the relative air of calmness around her. She would let nothing bother her; something which I can only fathom at, because I tend to get pissed off fairly quickly… People would say the most hurtful things to her, and many times, she would brush it off by shrugging her shoulders and looking the other way. (This is not as some might say, "letting people run over you," but instesad is something called PATIENCE, a wisdom that not everyone is gifted with.) And then slowly (over 6 months to a year period) I noticed her style also changed… she started wearing her hijab lower on her face (so as to cover more of it). I would always get really annoyed at her saying, "Wear your hijab right!!" at which she responded by shrugging her shoulders (making me even more annoyed). Then slowly and over time, (another six months or so) she started at first to cover her face lightly with her hijab, then pin her hijab in a style which also covered her face, and finally she started wearing full time niqab. I simply couldn't understand it then, as to WHY she wanted to cover her face… I felt that people stared at her more when she went out in public, and my mom (a very religious women herself) surprisingly told her not to wear it becuase she felt it was not needed in a society which was so safe, and that by wearing Niqab, Ayesha would subject herself to more danger. Ayesha replied that she wore niqab not for protecting herself, but sincerely to please Allah(swt), "just because its not an obligation, doesn't mean I SHOULDN'T do it!" So, my point (for those patient souls who are still reading
) is that in the end, the "level" of covering yourself is a deeply spiritual decision. To me, a jelbab and hijab were sufficient to meet the requirements Allah had set out for a woman in the Quran. For my friend (whom just started wearing hijab a month ago), a hijab accompanied by loose jeans and t-shirt were the answer. To my sister, the wearing of a niqab (face covering) and burka and hijab was what she felt best in. In the end, it was a GRADUAL, and deeply spiritual choice of what you would wear. (And I feel this is true for anyone who decides to make a change they truly care about in thier life; it is NOT a simple 'wake up the next morning' and its done type of thing.) Its not as though Ayesha had turned into a different person, or that she wasn't fun and outgoing anymore, it was just the fact that she had added an extra piece of cloth to her face that had us so freaked.
Which is why Kimmy, I can understand how it would be hard for you to accept niqab, because (as a practicing Muslim who frequently sees other women in Niqab), it was hard for me to accept it! I agree with your need for security, yet I feel the main reason your concerned about security is becuase the Niqab is a new concept in the West, which unfortunately has been given a very negative connotation. (am i right?) And like any new thought, it will take some time for the public to get used to it, as well as the average person to meet some women who are niqabi's and talk to them, and find out they are not repressed and uneducated women. I'm guessing that part of the reason American's get scared when seeing someone cover head to toe is the fact that they can't see the person's bodyshape, size, etc. (which is highly unusual here), yet people do not react the same way towards Nuns. Could it be becuase in the public's eye a Nun who covers head to toe has a positive connotation, while a Muslim woman covering head to toe (w/ or w/out a niqab) brings to mind images of the Taliban and other such totalitarian regimes? I truly feel that over time, (hopefully) American's will not feel threatened by seeing a Muslim woman with a burka and hijab, but respect her as they respect Nuns, because wearing Niqab (especially and specifically in the West nowadays) is something only a person who is VERY strong in thier iman (faith), heart, and belief can do… its the ultimate "test" of one's faith.
Okay, kids, story time is officially done now… you may all leave.
(sorry for the extremely long comment!)
Oh, and btw Haitham, great post!
– Sumeyya
Sumeyya,
I wanted to take the time to thank you for you well thought out response to all of us here. By sharing your personal experience it helped me to understand so much. Even I as an American who was married to a Moslem did not understand this angle because my own sisters in law who WERE Moslems but more secular only wore the habaya when they had to in Saudi Arabia. Your thoughtful response has allowed me to see it from your perspective who has had a rather "evolutionary" experience with hijab. I always try to explain to people that there is a real live woman under there but she is only demonstrating her piety such as nuns do, which by the way was an EXCELLENT analogy. Thank you again for your willingness to share and bring clarity to this contraversial issue. Masalama
Thanks alot Robin! That really made me feel better! (I thought no one would even read it! Thank you.
tangent… what was I trying to say? Oh, right, that forcing one to take off niqab is just as horrible as forcing one to wear it. Wa'salaam,
I also wanted to add that I am aware that in some countries (chief among them Saudi Arabia) women must wear niqab or be punished by law… to me this is just as bad as a law stating women can't wear niqab. It is COMPLETELY undermining the law of Shari'ah, (don't know which Shariah Saudi ARabia follows becuase many times, it doesn't seem like the Islamic one). The Islam Prophet Muhammad (saw) taught was one where women were given equal rights as men, and Islam teaches that Allah(swt) made men and women physically and metnally different, and in our difference lies our astounding individual beauty. One of the greatest beauty of a women is that she is capable of concieving and bearing a child. Besides the amazing experience of having a child growing inside of you, Islam says that when a women goes through the pangs of pregnancy, her sins are forgiven, and when she finally gives birth, all her past sins (big and small) are completely forgiven, and she is as sinless as the newborn child in her lap. Have men been given any honor of that sort?? NO… and yet women must consistently try to compare themselves to men when Allah(swt) has made us both different. It's sad that in today's ultra-modern society, the worth of a woman truly lies on how well she does when compared to a man, even though we simply are not comparable!! Society has sunk so low that woman who choose to live at home and raise good, moral, children are said to be "just housewives," and women who are working are said to be "the leaders of tomorrow." Tell me, are the leaders of tomorrow gonna be the women who will probably be dead by "tomorrow" or are they gonna be the children we raise today?
Anywho… (Dang.. again the long comment… I just can't refrain! :P) yet again, I have gone into one my "femenist"
– Sumeyya
Oh, and on a note to Thomas, a Dane. You said,
Muslim women do not wear the burqa JUST to prevent men from looking at them (read my first comment). This issue has been brought up many times, from muslims and non-muslims alike. The point of the matter is, that there are, simply, different types of attention. Do you (assuming ur a guy :)) look at a photo of hijabi women the same as you look at a photo of a Victoria’s Secret ad? The type of attention women want to divert is the second type… In fact the first type of attention, I welcome!
This way, guys (and girls too) come up to me and ask me why I wear the hijab and burka, and I can at least satisfy their curiosity. Anyway, just thought you should know.
Sumeyya,
Again you have given an absolutely beautiful response. You are right, in Saudi Arabia the secular Moslems wear thier habayas only becuase they are forced to. Your explanation brings so much to the dialogue here as a "woman's" point of view. My reaction to the hijab as an American (who this is not part of my frame of reference) is simply to be tolerant. I always wonder why people have so much trouble with it, I guess I just don't get it. But now that you have explained it in this fashion I do. I guess it all depends on who you ask. If you ask someone who has been forced to wear it the conotation is entirely different than from someone such as yourself who has chosen to wear it. Yes, I was aware of the pregnancy and birth beliefs of Islam because my husband said his prayers for me at the time our daughter was born even though I am a Christian he explained this to me. It is such a beautiful belief and gave me great comfort especially after seven hours of hard labor and looking like something the cat drug in when our daughter finally arrived. If you look at my post #25 you will see how I defended the hijab a few days ago. Now, thanks to your explanation, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, I have a much better answer. I don't think it will stop some people from still being intolerant. BUT it will give them the opportunity to make up their mind in an informed manner. You're great BTW, am I to understand you still live in the States (no details necessary)?
Kimmy, I wanted to respond to a few quotes of yours from a few seperate posts of yours.
You said:"Have you seen any pictures of Super-Models without their make-up? They are ugly."
I'm sorry, but who are you to judge who is beautiful and who is ugly?
You sai:"Everything from the West is nothing more than commercial hype."
How can you say something like that? There are millions of people from the West who contribute to the good of man kind on a daily basis.
You said:"The muslim world has no access to these lies and they rebel to our influence."
Well I hate to break it to you, but the Muslim world does have access to our commercial influences. They wear our clothes, wear our make-up, watch our movies, and yet they are still good people. It's called Freedom Kimmy. Freedom to watch and wear whatever you like.
You said:"The rich get richer the poor get more down trodden."
I come from a poor family here in the states and I am now living in an upperclass neighborhood. My child attends private school. I've helped out the down trodden and I don't forget where I came from either. I'm not ashamed of that and I'm certainly not ashamed of my success. There is nothing wrong with it.
You said:"And the Arab countries are being pushed down the list."
The list of what? I don't understand? In case you have forgotten, Arab countries are some of the wealthiest in the world. It's too bad more of that money isn't used to help the poor in other Arab countries. It wasn't Arab countries who came to the aid of earthquake victims in Pakistan and Iran, and it wasn't Arab countries who came to the aid of the tsunami victims. So while you are bashing us for not doing enough, please remember that alot of people who could do more are not doing enough.
You said:"Children around the world die of starvation and disease and we support this?"
Well of course not. Yes, children do die of starvation and disease and no, we are not doing enough as a collective whole to put a stop to it. We all need to work together in making sure that starvation and disease does not take the life of another human being. But pointing your finger and putting all of the blame on Americans isn't very fair. My personal opinion, we are some of the most giving people and generous people in the world. I've seen this with my own two eyes the way we respond to those in dire need brings tears to my eyes. I remind myself all of the time how lucky I am to be living in this glorious country but I will not turn my back on those in need.
You said:"No wonder the muslims hate the great satan."
This is very upsetting to say the least. You insult my country in order to puff up your opinions. It's shallow and it's in bad taste. We are not the great satan and shame on you for saying such a thing.
Sumeyya
I don't dislike women wearing face coverings. I have accepted that.
I just don't accept them to wear them on drivers licenses or other forms of ID.
When I am out shopping I see these thing and I accept them. I talk to everyone and accept everyone. I am not perfect, nor are you. We are living in a world that is only accepting perfection. I am not accepting it.
Sorry if I don't use the proper names because they are pushing my limited mental capacity.
If we ever meet I will accept you, no matter whatever you wear.
Personality is more important than religion to me.
Kimmy,
I'm totally out of it on this one. Are some of these women insisting on wearing the burqua for driver's licences anywhere? That seems like a total oxymoron to me. International law forces Saudi women to put their pictures on passports but their hair is always covered. Since women can't drive, there isn't the licence problem. There you go, isn't that a self-fulfilled dilema!
Sumeyya, perhaps you know the answer to this question
Does anyone else know?
The Netherlands should be embarrassed by their government. Lack of tolerance is ridiculous. The hypocrisy is great. Smoke all the cannabis you want, legalized prostitution etc. but no burqa. I have the solution—-Move to the United States and enjoy the freedom that you seek! This great country offers religious freedoms and was founded on that premise. You are welcome here and you can even set up your mosques to worship as you please. You will not be treated like the French either. It seems to me that these european countries are intimidated by the differences in your culture. We might take a little time to get used to it also and it might create some issues initally but the courts here will address your right to worship as you please.
Anyone reading:
Before anyone thinks the above post is a good suggestion, please google these sites:
New US visa procedure raise concerns
FT.com/World/US-Visa woes cost US $5bn a year
Most Moslems would like to be able to live wherever they want to, be it their country of origin, Europe, Asia, North America. Our constituition grants the freedom of religion, but seriously, is that the topic here? We're talking Denmark, not the US.
Robin,
As you guessed, no where in the world it is accepted to have a covered face photo for an ID. Not even in the most ignorant parts of the Muslim world. I don't know where did kimmy come up with this assumption from. I never heard of a covered face woman claiming the right to use her photo in that shape for any kind of any ID.
Haitham,