Nothing new... Just one more!
“They (the soldiers) have no idea how much I love her,” the father said, chain-smoking and wiping away his tears. “How can I enter the house and never see her again?”
30 Israeli Soldiers Killed 8-Year-Old Palestinian Girl
Associated PressYAMOUN, West Bank, 19 March 2006 - Eight-year-old Akbar Zayed was on her way to have stitches removed from her chin when a barrage of Israeli Army bullets killed her on the spot, her family said yesterday.
The army opened an investigation into Akbar´s killing, but the failed arrest raid left behind demolished homes, damaged cars and a family devastated by the death of a little girl.
The arrest raid in the West Bank village of Yamoun began like many others. Soldiers stormed the village of Yamoun late Friday, hunting down fugitives the army believed were holed up in a house. Troops cordoned off an area around the house, calling on the fugitives to surrender, the army said.
Suddenly, a taxi drove into the area, the army said. An initial military inquiry found that the troops called on the driver to stop, and when he failed to do so, soldiers fired at the car's wheels.
But Kamal Zayed, the girl's uncle who was driving the car, said three men ran toward the car and before he could turn off the engine they fired on him.
"I saw them behind the fence. There were more than 30 soldiers. The first bullet hit my niece. She got a bullet in the head from the very beginning," Kamal recalled from his hospital bed, where he was being treated yesterday for gunshot wounds in his arm and leg. When the gunfire erupted, Kamal had just arrived at the clinic where his niece was to have her stitches removed.
"I started to yell ... opened the door and started taking her out of the car to get her into the clinic. They (the soldiers) yelled at me to put her on the ground, started shooting in the air. I don't know what they shot at." Kamal said.
Later, Kamal said he was pulled out of the ambulance by soldiers and interrogated for more than two hours before being allowed to receive medical treatment.
Hundreds of people yesterday attended the young girl´s funeral. Stopping frequently to calm himself down, Akbal Zayed's father, Abder Zayed, said he had asked his brother to take the girl to the clinic because he did not want to be present when the doctors removed her stitches.
"They (the soldiers) have no idea how much I love her," the father said, chain-smoking and wiping away his tears. "How can I enter the house and never see her again?"
Akbar was killed early on in the military operation. Later, the army partially destroyed a house, rounding up the family members and detaining them at an Israeli military base for several hours, residents said. The fugitives fled. "Until now, I don't know why they did it to us, why they shot at us. It was clear that I was in the car just with a small girl," the uncle, Kamal, said.
Killing Palestinian kids in cold blood is nothing new. Last time we looked, even disabled kids were shoot dead.
Here is a look at the last two weeks reports of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR):
Week 02 - 08 March 2006:
Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) Continue Attacks on Palestinian Civilians and Property in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)
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- 6 Palestinians were killed by IOF in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
- 5 of the victims were killed during an extra-judicial execution operation conducted by IOF.
- 18 Palestinian civilians were wounded by IOF.
- IOF continued to shell Palestinian areas in the Gaza Strip.
- IOF conducted 29 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
- Houses were raided and 38 Palestinian civilians were arrested by IOF.
- One house was transformed by IOF into a military site.
- IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT, especially in the West Bank; IOF have continued to separate the Jordan Valley from the remainder of the West Bank; IOF have continued to isolate occupied East Jerusalem and Palestinians aged under 45 have been denied access to the al-Aqsa Mosque; Palestinian civilians have been prohibited from travelling from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank; and IOF arrested 8 Palestinian civilians at checkpoints in the West Bank.
- IOF have continued to construct the Annexation Wall in the West Bank; IOF razed areas of Palestinian land in Hebron and Tulkarm; IOF demolished a house in Jerusalem; dozens of families living in 16 communities near Hebron were isolated by the Wall; and IOF used force against Palestinian civilians demonstrating against the construction of the Wall.
- Israeli settlers have continued to attack Palestinian civilians and property in the OPT; a Palestinian child was injured; and IOF demolished a house in Beit Eksa village.
Week 09 - 15 March 2006:
Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) Continue Attacks on Palestinian Civilians and Property in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)
- IOF stormed Jericho Prison: IOF arrested Ahmed Sa'adat, his comrades, Fu'ad al-Shoubaki, a number of political and criminal prisoners and a number of members of Palestinian security forces; and two Palestinians were killed and at least 50 others were wounded by the IOF gunfire
- IOF continued to shell Palestinian areas in the Gaza Strip; 3 Palestinian civilians were inured in Beit Hanoun.
- IOF conducted 34 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
- Houses were raided and 65 Palestinian civilians, including 6 children, were arrested by IOF.
- 9 houses were transformed by IOF into military sites.
- IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT; a Palestinian woman gave birth at Qalandya checkpoint near Ramallah; and IOF arrested 6 Palestinian civilians at checkpoints in the West Bank.
- IOF have continued to construct the Annexation Wall in the West Bank; IOF shot dead a Palestinian civilian near the Wall to the west of Ramallah; IOF resumed land leveling in Dahiat al-Barid area, north of Jerusalem; IOF confiscated 220 donums[1] of agricultural land in Bethlehem; and IOF used force against Palestinian civilians demonstrating against the construction of the Wall.
- Israeli settlers have continued to attack Palestinian civilians and property in the OPT; 5 Palestinian civilians were injured; and IOF started to establish a police station to the east of Jerusalem, and a settler road in the center of Hebron.
{ 50 comments }
There should be nothing desired more than peace.
Shame on us.
Crimes agains humanity. Where’s the tribunal for Israel?
I am sure the IDF will come up with some story.
The father is a terroirst and he took her as a human shield.
The girl was strapped with an exolisive belt.
The 30 soldiers are crazy!
The girl was holding a stone in her hand shouting: Shaheed shaheed, then they’ll run a huge documentry about how the ME MSM brainwash kids to become shaheeds.
Thank you for this article Haitham. This is proof enough that the situation is unbearable in that slice of the world. As always the minority suffers while the majority uses the media to shape the world’s perception (Picking up on the last post). As a Catholic from Northern Ireland this situation is analagous to the one which shaped that conflict. Though the Catholics were seen to the rest of the world as extremist killing the English, protesants, innocents, etc. The real picture involved a 3 (4 by some accounts) to 1 ratio of Catholic deaths to Protesant. This is the same in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. God Bless that poor child, her father, family and friends. She is with the Lord as are all the innocents who die at the end of a gun.
sean,
thank you for your solidarity. england out of ireland. israel out of palestine.
This is fucked up i hate whats going on in Palestine,
Why are we fighting for those who refuse to help us to gain our country back , no one is supporting us PALSTEINAINS, palestinains should stop fighting israeli’s coz they will never win them, ALL the PEOPLE SUPPORT ISRAEL, Leave the helpless Palestinians with no support and no Hope for the future, they are always, People are too Blind to see whats wrong and whats right.If we fight the Israel’s every contry lable us as an accuses of terror, when the israel’s innocnets and demolish soo many homes for no reason they call it self defense. This is ridcules, I hate all the arab countries, I ONLY LOVE PALESTINE AND PALESTINIANS..
Lilly,
It IS fucked up and, though I am not Palestinian, I hate whats going on in Palestine as well.
It is not true that ALL people support Israel and it is not true that Palestinians have no support either.
If Palestinians looked outside the conflict for a moment they would realize that ‘people’ do not have a problem with the fact that Palestinians fight for their rights, but they do have a problem with the way the fighting is done.
The problem is that Palestinians are too blind to recognize the support they actually have and they are too blind to realize that they are effectively alienating the supporters they could potentially have.
This goes to lilly.i dont think that palestinians should stop fightin the israelis,they got the right 2 fight them out of their own country and there are few countries against palestine but the arab countries are with palestine but they themselve are clueless and helpless…noone wants israelis in palastine except for bush and the jews..but as many jews know they dont go to palestine becoz it will be their end…theres an “2eye”(like a saying) in the “Holy Quran” sayin that when all jews unite in palestine,palestine will collapse and it will be the end of the jews and they will never be able to escape..this is one reason why most of the jews dont go there,they buy jews ( who are unknown of what might happen) like from russia and bring them to palestine /israel so that they stay there and the jewish population doesnt decrease.i think that its wrong from you to say that you hate all the arab countries when theyr all in the same situation like palestine…in libanon its not better, the states are interfeering in the election of the minister or smth and in irak its the same,you cannot differentiate between palestine and irak when they got the same problems…the problem is only that the moslims dont have the power to fight back this is all but i pray,..i pray that god gives us the power and the energy to fight all the intruders back to their country and the jews/israelis should go to the states at least theyr willcomed there unlike in all the other countries…noone wants the jews to be in a country where other religions exist..even germany ,hitler mostly fought against jews,so you can see that there is really no country which accepts the jews…god bless us all and all the innocent ppl who are losing family members or even their own life…
Thomas,
If a foreign occupier came to Denmark, confiscated all it weapons or rendered its military otherwise ineffective, then stuck around for sixty years and beat you and all of the other Danes down constantly, treated the Danes as the Palestinians have been treated, could the Danes be blamed for fighting back, regardless of the means?
58 year and counting:
Every year Israel formally renews its declaration of a state of emergency in order to prolong their occupation of Palestine. Almost 60 years running, and every year Israel is in a state of emergency, and Palestine is in a state of suspended disaster, requiring UNWRA, an organisation that was supposed to provide temporary relief to the Palestinian refugees, to become an institution.
Raymond,
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am in no way saying that Palestinians should give up or that they should not fight the opressive Israeli regime.
Of course Danes would fight back (and we did in WWII), but we would probably be a bit more ‘pragmatic’ about it and try to figure out how we could fight back in a manner that would gather international support rather than fight back with any means possible and alienate those ‘outside forces’ that would be able to put pressure on the occupier.
As I have said in another post, don’t try to change the system of international politics, accept if for what it is and work with it to your advantage. All the years of suicide bombing has not gotten you anywhere, don’t you think it should be time to try something different?
You are loosing the ‘battle for hearts and minds’ with suicide bombing, so if you try something new then it will most likely put you in a better situation. That’s what I am saying.
Thomas,
How can you ask the Palestinians to stop and act in a rational manner. The entire situation is completely irrational. They are being killed by the Israeli army for no reason on a daily basis. These are ordinary civilians whose only weapons are probably a few rocks. Where is the rationale in that?
I’m not a Palestinian, but I’m guessing that to continually see these atrocities going on, and not having anybody on the international arena stand up for you, then you probably learn not to depend on them.
The actions of suicide bombers are those of desperate and hopeless people.
I really don’t believe that suicide bombers are trying to change the system of international politics with their actions, as you say they are. Clearly their actions are those of someone who has lost all hope and all they care for is revenge on anybody.
Of course this is wrong and has achieved nothing. But maybe nothing they do will change things. They started their way on the road to democracy by electing Hamas, and instead they were punished. Israel is the one with power. If they wanted peace, they could have had it long ago.
Israel wants land. A land that is only for people of their kind and nobody else. I don’t think they will rest until they get what they want.
For all of you,
Are any of you who support the Palestinian cause strapping bombs to yourselves or helping others to do so? I think NOT. The bombing of civilian targets is NOT a method used only by the Palestinians. The very first bombs set off on civilians in this current mess called the Palestinian/Israeli conflict were set off by ISRAELIS! They set off bombs in Palestinian market places in the 1920′s (someone help me out here cause I can’t find where I read it, I believe it had something to do with one of the former prime ministers of Israel, sorry, but I’m a little bit on overload with all this information). Anyways, it was the Israels who began this method first, and the Palestinians had their first suicide bombing at the airport in Tel Aviv in 1972. I don’t know what this adds to the conversation because I don’t think ANY OF US think this is a good method. The US has been the provider of the “conventional means” of warfare (not to mention a few bulldozers used for means not intended by the manufacturer in the owner’s manual)used by the Israelis. It is the individual “human” IOP which has continued to use their own bare hands and personal weapons to carry out the atrocities against individual Palestinians. Palestinian victims of the IOP outnumber by FAR the number of Israeli victims of suicide bombings or rocket fire. Any ways, if I am wrong, please correct me, but this is my take on it from the information I have gleamed from here and my other research. And yes, desperation DOES lead to irrational thought processes. No excuse, just a fact.
Thomas,
There are several fronts for the Palestinians. Those that have been operating within internationally accepted means have seen no progress, as the Israelis disregard all promises made at the table of diplomacy and forge forward toward their agenda. Those who have been operating with homemade explosives have met the same fate in terms of getting what they want. Playing nice hasn’t really gotten the Palestinians anywhere. In other armed conflict around the globe, where guns or bombs are used by both sides, it may be clearer that there is a war on. In the Israel/Palestine conflict, people see the Israelis as troops and the Palestinians as terrorists, because the Palestinians don’t fight conventionally. It’s really unfair to hold anyone up to some international standard of “acceptable” warfare when one side of the conflict is so clearly in the advantage and in grave violation of humanitarian law. We see this with the Guantanamo prisoners, we see it in Iraq, and ongoingly we see it in Palestine.
Just a thought,
Last week I rented “Paradise Now” I think that most Palestinians that I personally know (because I’ve never met a suicide bomber, they’re all dead) would relate most to the girlfriend in the movie. No matter what the means, the numbers tell the truth. And to say that it is only the Palestinians who target civilians is pure BS because the IOF’s main purpose is to take on the civilian Palestinian population and use whatever form of brutality they see fit. Just because they are wearing uniforms does not make them any more legitimate in my eyes at least. This whole idea here in the States that we can do whatever we want to our detainees and they are not subject to the Geneva convention is in direct correlary to IOP’s tactics. I just found out the US did not even sign the last accord to the Geneva convention which prohibited the use of white phosporus. God the information I am getting is giving me a pit in my stomach.
Monsters!!!
Don’t they have kids at their home. How could they do it with a sweet, innocent and little girl. What she has done?
Monsters, slaughterers!!!
Shame!!
As I recall there were no suicide bombings before the occupation. Its disingenous to call on Palestinians to stop retaliating when heavily armed jewish terrorists roam the streets, killing their children in cold blood. And these criminals have 400 nukes as well.
Give the Palestinians fighter jets, tanks and submarines and see if they’ll use suicide attacks.
Israel ought to be declared a terrorist state and boycotted.
Raymond,
Please read my post #42 in “Breeding Extremism” before the rest of my answer to you here.
The international ‘media picture’ of Palestinians is ONE image of ‘Palestinian terrorists’ and not TWO, one of ‘nice and peaceful Palestinians’ and one of ‘Palestinian terrorists’. The fact that matters is that Palestinians have NEVER been seen to be playing ‘nice’, because whatever ‘nice’ gestures there may have been they have drowned in the blasts of suicide bombers.
“It’s really unfair to hold anyone up to some international standard of “acceptable” warfare when one side of the conflict is so clearly in the advantage and in grave violation of humanitarian law.”
Fair doesn’t matter. For the Palestinian cause, public perception in the world population outside Palestine has absolutely nothing to do with fair. It’s all about MARKETING and while the Palestinians have been sitting and picking their belly buttons the ‘world outside’ has been passing by. The history of Palestinian ‘resistance’ is full of missed opportunities and self-inflicted set-backs in the fight to win the marketing war. Though the Israelis are in the wrong with their occupation, they have managed to set up a well oiled marketing machinery that makes Palestinian marketing resemble somebody sitting and scratching some illegible message in the sand!
Palestinian belly buttons do not reflect the outside world and if they looked up they would also be able to see the ‘West’ as much more than just a blob of people with lack of understanding. If Palestinians took a professional and pragmatic approach to ‘market analysis’ then they would realize what I am saying about the different ‘communication objectives’ in the USA compared to Europe.
My ‘Naked Palestinians’ concept in #45 of “Breeding Extremism” is actually not bad at all. Of course, the protesters do not have to be butt naked, but if they dress up in some skin colored gymnastics-type of stretch suit and wear shorts in the Palestinian colors then they would create a very stong symbolism (naked = unarmed, vulnerable, and defenseless) which is the message you want to get across in the world media to win sympathy and support. You can’t win a military victory over Israel, so you have to focus your efforts where they can make a difference.
If NP sends out a press release to the international media before a demonstration and ensures that as many foreign reporters, monitors, etc. as possible are give advance notice, then you have a good beginning. If NP also ensures that there will be at least a couple of members with digital video cameras to document the protest and that their video feed is uploaded to an Internet server, then you have a good reason to send another press release to the world media inviting them to download the ‘uncut’ video feed of the situation on the ground to ensure that if there is any abuse then it will be possible for the international media to show it on the evening news.
NP could also make their own commented version of the ‘edited’ video feed and send it out over the P2P networks for anybody interested to download and watch. In addition there could be efforts to create a mailing list of ‘friendly Westerners’ who will monitor their local media and contact the local newspapers or TV stations if they fail to notice that “Israeli military beats up 12 Naked Palestinians during sit-down protest against incursion into Gaza”.
I can almost guarantee you, that this kind of ‘working with the media’ will do MUCH more to promote the Palestinian cause than the set-backs created by suicide bombers. Work smarter, not harder!
If somebody by mistake turns on a hotplate in your kitchen and you accidentaly put your hand on it, then you can take the pragmatic and rational approach; remove your hand, turn off the hotplate, and put your hand under cold water. Or you can take the ‘Palestinian Approach’; keep your hand on the hotplate, drum up all your friends and family, and excite each other about how unfair and stupid it is that you are burning your hand when the hotplate is not supposed to be hot.
Sorry, but that is how I see the ‘marketing mentality’ of Palestinians as long as they come with excuses to explain suicide bombing even though it is an approach that is clearly not working!
I have said it before and I will say it again: STOP WHINING AND DO SOMETHING!
While Palestinians are sitting and looking at their belly buttons in a crying fit over how bad it is that nobody supports them, leaders of major politcal groupings in the Euorpean Parliament are saying things like: “The raid on the prison must be investigated. We need answers to why it took place and it must be convincing answers.”, “It is not the job of a state to raid a prison.”, and “It was an unnecessary and illigal military operaton” to European media!!!
And while Palestinians are sitting and looking at their belly buttons in a crying fit over that everybody is against their democratic election of Hamas, the EU is trying to figure out how they can best rechannel their financial support directly to the humanitarian activites supporting Palestinians because they expect the Palistinians to be too stupid to understand that the EU is not against Palestinian democracy, but that it is against European democratic principles to transfer funds to any organization that supports terrorism or promotes ‘wiping out’ another group of people!!!
What part of EU Foreign Commissioner, Benita Ferrero-Waldner’s message: “We will work with those who work for peace through peaceful means. Hamas must realize that their decisions can have consequences for our support” is too difficult for Palestinians to understand?!?
Robin,
I am still not sure what to think of the Dalai Lama proposal.
Sure, his message of peace and understanding is a great objective that I guess nobody can really disagree with. But to me, his pacifism looks more like the inaction of “let’s go to sleep and hopefully the world will look different tomorrow” where Gandhi was more a man of action, non-violent but action.
The approach of Dalai Lama seems a bit to me as giving up and hoping for something nice to happen while Gandhi stands for active resistance.
I am still not sure, but I think this is the differentiation I am leaning towards.
Ooops, wrong thread. The above should have been on “Breeding Extremism”.
Thomas,
I will defer you to a piece written in This Week in Palestine. It says what I would like to say in response to your call for “Marketing Palestine 101″. http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/details.php?id=1289&ed=112
Raymond,
Let me begin by telling you that I am approaching you very gently out of the utter respect I have for the article above you linked us to. The author put into very eloquent words what I have also seen with my own eyes. While living in Beirut I went several times with my sister-in-law to Shatilla in order to bring clothing and monies to the refugees there. I was shocked, absolutely shocked by what I saw and the memory is indelible to me. At the time I thought it was just one place, but as time has gone by I see that this same sort of circumstance is what the whole of the occupied territories have, more similar to each other than they are different.
I also concur with the author that there should be no need for an ad-campaign on the part of the Palestinians, none at all. The world, ie the US should be able to see this and understand.
But like I told you over on Extremism, often people see it and still don’t understand.
I think why Thomas (if he allows me to use his name here ) is offering this as a suggestion is because from his European mindset (which is natural because he is European) this is a logical suggestion. As an American, who is very familiar with Arab culture, I approach it a little differently. Somewhere here in the last few weeks of posting I was trying to explain that the Arab culture is one of pride whereas the Zionist culture is one of victim. The zionists have used their victimhood and very cleverly with the manipulation of the Western media covered up their other trait, brutality. It is a common saying here in the West, “the real wars are fought in the media”. A similar tactic has been taken by Al-Zazeera but again, very cleverly, the zionists have sought to undermine their credibility.
As for the offerings of MLK, Ghandi and Mandela, I think Thomas offered them simply because they worked. But I wish to add a little more. Although these three men encapsule the credit for overturning prior policies against their peoples, they are but symbols in my mind to a great extent because the credit has not been given nearly as much to all the others who put their lifes on the line also. Using MLK: slavery might have been abolished in the 1860′s, but the real work had yet to begin. There were hundreds of people fighting for Black Rights. The tide started turning dramatically in 1954 with Brown vs. Board of Education which outlawed segregation in schools. But even then the governor of Georgia, George Wallace, defied the National Guard when a young black girl tried to walk into her all white school. There were others, many others who did the same. The KKK was forced underground and even tacit approval was also forced underground. In the case of Mandela, the US also played a major role. We jumped on the bandwagon of the boycott against South Africa LONG after Europe recognized the problem for what it was. But it. was our great big “Pickled Toad Nation” that finally tipped the scales when we too joined the boycott (Thomas please correct me if I’m wrong because I very much do NOT want to take credit for something not due us)
Raymond, I do not like being a citizen of a “Picled Toad Nation” but the fact remains, that as long as the US supports Israel there is not a chance of a snowball in hell for peace. THAT is why the Palestinians need to get their message to us.
Having said that, let me again remind you that I am fully aware that the Zionist motive was to strip the Palestinians of their humanity and their pride. I am here to tell you from the bottom of my heart that it is in the hands of the Palestinians to take it back. Take your best and brightest and let them fight for you. Get the suicide bombers under control by whatever means possible (not you personally) and fight fire with fire. Don’t let them do this to you or others. Use whatever peaceful means you can to fight against this evil. I am listening, and others will too as a peaceful message becomes impossible to avoid here in the West.
Robin,
Thanks to you, Thomas, and others that have expressed their solidarity with the Palestinians. While hopeful, it is unrealistic to believe that any resistance, including suicide bombings, will cease while Israel continues to exercise carte blanche in occupied Palestine. Meanwhile, you may boycott Israeli products, continue writing your Representatives (although you might do better than to waste the paper and postage), and most importantly spread the truth about Palestine.
According to UNRWA’s 2004 statistics, there are over 4 million registered Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza. (this includes refugees of 1967 and 1948)
For more info from peaceful organisations:
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn/background/index.htm
http://asp.alhaq.org/zalhaq/site/home.aspx?ln=en
http://www.passia.org/
http://www.arij.org/
http://www.openbethlehem.org/
Raymond,
Thanks for the links. In my many hours sitting here doing research I spent a great deal of it looking for a source of charity I could donate to for the Palestinian cause. I came across an organization here in the States called the Holy Land Christian Ecumenical Foundation. It is a Catholic group which is in solidarity with the Christians of Palestine. While I am well aware that Christian Palestinian are a small minority, I hit upon it because it is so damn hard here in the States do donate to any Palestinian cause without inviting scrutiny from the powers that be. Even Christian Aide is knocked around and accused of using their power against Israel. This site has many charitable opportunities listed as well as a thread that allows you to light a candle in honor of our prayers for Palestine. I lit a candle and have contacted some of the charities offered. If anyone reading here would like to log on here it is:
http://www.hcef.org/ – 24k -
Any possible way that anyone can help even in a small way can offer solidarity for the Palestinians. Peace be with you all and know that we are listening. ‘Alakum A’salam ( my Arabic is rusty, so forgive me if I got it wrong.)
Here is a good site to go to for a list of the boycotted goods. I remember when I lived in SA there were no Ford or Coca Cola products allowed. This was great for Chevrolet because they manufactured Suburbans which was the most popular SUV there when it first came outand still is. Pepsi made out like bandits too with a local bottling plant nearby in Al Khobar. If your interested in the site here it is: http://www.bigcampaign.org/boycottlistwot2.html – 64k
Just beware there are ALOT of products we are used to use on a daily basis. From my reading in SA sources I found that even though other American products are there, such as the fast-food chains, many citizens are calling on boycotting those as well. Where would I be without my McDonalds! Yuck! It’s awful food anyways :)
Raymond,
Thank you for the constructive dialogue and the link in #21 and the links in #23 (I have not gone there yet).
Robin has some very good points (#22), but instead of repeating exactly what she says in her last paragraph word-by-word I will comment a bit on the article link, because the article seems to have a very pessimistic view on both Palestinians and the rest of the world – and it promotes the Palestinian hotplate approach ;)
It seems to me that Mary Geday is accepting that “Palestinians are dirty, messy and chaotic” because they have been ‘mentally defeated’ by Israel. To me the mess is not a sign that ‘Israel has won’, but that Palestinians are human like everybody else.
Six years ago, my wife and I bought our current apartment in an area that cannot be called upscale, but the size and price was ‘right’ and it is in a district that is developing and improving. I have been ‘annoyed’ by the same kind of careless behavior in our street (though she did not mention an abundance of dog shit and the occasional puke puddle). That the Hungarians on my street are dirty, messy, and chaotic is definitely not because of the Israelis and since it is not a phenomenon seen all over Budapest it cannot be attributed to ‘cruel methods’ of the Hungarian government either.
My conclusion is that it is rooted in social/economical hardship, because the particular area I live in has a lot of unemployed and retired manual workers. And it has become better over the years as we are coming out of the economic recession (more jobs and the pension allowance has been increased from ‘completely ridiculous’ to ‘ridiculous’).
OK, the mess and dirtiness is more extreme in Palestine, but so are the social/economic problems of Palestinians – no, it’s not because you are more human :)
The complete lack of ability to stand in line is not a specific Palestinian phenomenon either. Before I came to Hungary I thought it was impossible that a person standing last in a line could be the first to get on the bus, but now I am a believer! Either it is due to a cultural dimension (both Hungary and Palestine are relatively masculine societies while Denmark is very feminine) or it is because most people in Hungary have enough problems trying to make a living for themselves while there is more economic ‘breathing room’ in Denmark.
Given the problems in Palestine I am not really surprised by the resignation and inactivity of a majority of Palestinians, but I still hope that there will be a few who will have enough ‘surplus’ to start a Gandhi style campaign (what did you think of my ‘Naked Palestinians’ idea?).
What does surprise me is the general acceptance of the Palestinian hotplate approach and the inability to recognize that the West is not just one big blob of people on the Zionist bandwagon.
Mary Geday is right; Palestinians should not have to run an ad-campaign to point attention to their suffering. That I agree with, but I do not agree with her westernfobia, because learning about and accepting another culture is not a danger to ones own culture. Her interpretation of her acquaintance’s question (the same as I have raised) is a long ranting of xenophobia based on crude generalizations and condemnation of everything that she thinks represents the West.
All I am asking for is that Palestinians help me help them, because I need some ‘good news’ from Palestine in order to ‘produce’ pressure on the governments of Israel and the USA. Just because it SHOULD NOT be necessary does not mean that it is not.
My only response to you, Thomas, is that you spend a year living the West Bank. I can attest to the sights, sounds, and experiences that Ms. Geday presents, and dare say that they are hardly xenophobic, but rather based upon how the West presents, views and treats Palestine in stark contrast to how the Palestinians themselves live on a daily basis. There is not a general hate for the West, in fact, there is an embracing of all people by the common Palestinian, who are underrepresented in the Western eye.
I refer you to today’s posting”to hell with everyone” by Haitham as support for Ms. Geday’s position.
If you want to really help, gain the perspective of a Palestinian and stop looking at it from a Western perspective. Stop saying, “I want to help, but that help is conditional upon your affirming me as a Westerner”. You must understand that the Palestinians are highly critical of the West, and the US in particular, for its tolerance of Israel’s blatant disregard for international and humanitarian law. Despite that, they are amongst the least xenophobic and most welcoming and hospitable people I have thus encountered on this planet.
okay, that’s two responses, but they run parallel to one another http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-images/smilies/icon_wink.gif
okay, i just wanted the winking smiley face, but you get the picture. : )
okay, i just wanted the winking smiley face, but you get the picture. : )
Raymond,
We are miscommunicating, because I do not necessarily want to be affirmed as a Westerner, that is my point.
What I am trying to object to is the xenophobic use of ‘Westerner’ as a mass description of ‘the enemy’ regardless of whether it is a physical or ideological enemy.
We have spent a lot of time discussing that ‘Arabs are not terrorists’. Arabs ARE NOT terrorists, they ARE Palestinians, Syrians, Iraqis etc. of whom SOME ARE terrorists. If fair has to be fair, then Westerners ARE NOT fascists, they ARE US-Americans, Danes, Hungarians etc. of whom SOME ARE fascists. Everybody cannot necessarily be put under the same geographical label, but we can all be labeled as people or humans.
I am not waking up every morning with new ideas about how to dominate the rest of the world like US-American Fascists nor am I thinking that I am superior to other ethnic groups like European Fascists, Danish Fascists, Hungarian Fascists, or Palestinian Fascists!
Abuse of the labels Arab and Westerner by blobbing people together to represent a negative promotes xenophobia regardless of who is doing it to whom.
I would like to be affirmed as a human who happens to be living in what, geographically, is labeled as the West, because I am a human, Western, European, Dane who happens to be a Liberal, Agnostic Atheist living in Hungary (my heart is Danish Hungarian, my citizenship is Danish).
I want to help, but that help is conditional upon your affirming me as not being a blob with tolerance of Israel’s blatant disregard for international and humanitarian law!
BTW, it is probably not a surprise that I disagre with the to hell with the world message :) I find it more constructive to say ‘to hell with the right front tire of my car for being flat’ than to say ‘to hell with my car’. If I simply curse my car then there is very little chance that somobody will offer me a spare tire!
Thomas and Raymond (and all of humanity),
I don’t know who said it, but it’s something like this, “Don’t presume to know another man’s reasoning until you’ve walked a day in their shoes” Obviously in this forum we are sharing, that is an impossibility. And at best, you can walk in their shoes for a moment, no matter how long, but they are still your own feet. We do however ALL have feet, some stinkier than others, but by the quality of our dialogue here, I think we have all washed them before our prayers (Thomas, it’s a Moslem thing). I think the frustration in our dialogue (at least I am feeling this way) is that all three of us are absolutely powerless to help eachother. I’m just a homemaker with some experience “on the other side”, and unless either one of you are government officials who have the power to change policy and I don’t know this, then all we can do is meet as concerned humans and discuss. I would like to say this, this dialogue between us, and others if they want to step in, is not only fulfilling for me on a personal level, it is also representative of the chance of fulfillment through open dialogue. All three of us, are coming to this from our own perspectives, but this is the important point, we are speaking to eachother with respect and concern for eachother. If I personally had the power to change this situation, I would gladly use it and never be able to say a word again. The Palestinian crisis is the root of every single problem we allude to on this blog. It is also the root of much of the world’s problem. But at the end of the day, we are not talking about solving a political crisis, we are talking about a humanitarian crisis. As an umbrella offering to both of you and others. Rather than try to solve the problem ourselves, let’s get to know each other better. Let’s share, if we could metaphorically sit down together, smoke a shisha, and share eachother’s cultures with invitation, that could be the start of a relationship. This is really a good place to do it in a way, because we can all get outside our own worlds and meet without having to actually go anywhere. Please forgive me if you think I’m trying to change the subject, I don’t think I am. But since we are all three (and any others here) merely everyday citizens of our own countries (Raymond, I don’t know about you, from what I am reading if you are Palestinian, you might not be a citizen of anywhere), let’s meet. It’s just the spiritualist part of my nature trying to reach out so you both can tell me to go away if you want me to.
I love you both, let’s talk.
Robin,
I fully agree :)
By the way, the advantage of walking a mile in the shoes of somebody else is that you are a mile away if you decide to keep them ;)
Thomas,
Unless you are walking side by side :)
Robin,
I am not a Palestinian by blood, but half of my family is. I have walked that mile in their shoes, and have decided to keep them. I am also an American, a downright stinky shoe I am often ashamed of owning. Regardless, the dialogue we’ve been sharing has been very welcome, and I look forward to more.
Thanks to Haitham for providing the forum.
Thomas, sorry, didn’t include you in that last one, but meant it toward you as well. In effect, it looks like we’re all non-western Westerners. I know that we come in many flavors, Westerners that is, so when I say Westerners from now on, please take it to mean the fascististic kind, not the ones who are doing their best and sticking their neck out to expose these fascists. You needn’t feel guilty or offended unless you are either a) one of the fascists, or b) an enabler by your inaction.
Peace.
Raymond,
Could we agree on ‘Western Fascists’ and ‘Fascistic Westerners’ instead? Because then we do not risk stepping on the feelings of non-Fascist Westerners who do not know our ‘agreement’?
Besides, it is the Fascists in the West who are (and should be) the non-Western Westerners, not us :)
Peace.
Thomas,
Sometimes you CONFUSE me. I’m going to take a suggestion from Kimmy, KISS (keep it simple stupid) Maybe “opened minded” and “narrow minded” might be easier. That way anyone who wants to join can say, “I am an open minded such and such” and let us know where they WANT to come from. Anyways, the minute anyone starts “talking here” we know what the attitude is. I’m all for free positive flow no matter what the label.
Raymond,
So our circumstances are very similar, although I am divorced and it was a Saudi. That’s COOL! I like to think I threw my stinky shoes in the trash but somehow they keep smelling up my everyday existance. I think after walking side by side then one turns to the other and humbly asks if they can keep the shoes. When all is as it should be, they are given to us out of graciousness for us to wear. Anyways, now that we all have our shoes on and are ready to take a walk, I have a question. I was trying to do some research about the citizenship status of the Palestinian refugees. It seems that unless someone is able to get citizenship which is VERY hard to do, then the refugees are in limbo. It seems most that do have citizenship are Jordanian. It also pisses me off to no end to see how hard it is for Palestinians to get citizenship or work permits in other Arab countries. It seems those in Lebanon can’t work because Lebanon won’t grant them work permits. The Gulf, which used to be more welcoming has also closed it’s doors even for work permits. What say you? I know if your wife is Palestinian then under our laws she can apply for citizenship here if she wishes. What about you Thomas, How are Palestinians treated in say Hungary or Denmark?
(I’m referring to them in particular because they are a very unique situation)
That is correct. Palestinian refugees are not granted citizenship in any of the neighboring Arab countries, nor in the Gulf. Jordan is one exception, but I’m not certain that Jordan is granting that exception any longer. In the Gulf, Palestinians may live there, but are rarely granted citizenship.
Another way to look at it, however, instead of getting angry, is to consider that if all of the neighboring Arab countries granted the refugees citizenship, it would absolve Israel of its responsibility to addressing the circumstances that they created. Israel would love for this to happen. So it is not as heartless or dumb as it is a political statement. That said, the Palestinian “guests” of neighboring Arab countries are not always treated with respect as such. So, in these cases, you can be as angry as you like.
Either way, the Palestinian refugees end up being fundamentally stateless and therefore fundamentally screwed (pardon the expression), unless they manage to weather the long naturalisation process of a country like the U.S or Canada. Even then, however, they maintain their sense of statelessness, as they are not allowed (by both Israel and the ineffective international community) their right under international law, and that is their right of return to Palestine.
Maybe Haitham can shed some light on being a Palestinian refugee in Jordan. Haitham?
Raymond,
Here’s some sites I looked into but it leaves me with more questions:
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/prissues.html – 37k -
http://www.shaml.org/publications/monos/mono1.htm – 38k -
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/20000524ib.html – 13k -
http://www.mideastweb.org/peaceplans.htm – 34k -
Also, it isn’t the citizenship I am ticked about because I understand the rationalle behind it. It’s the “becomming harder to work abroad” issue that bothers me. It’s just been so DAMNED long and just when you think someone came up with a solution (cause there are so many of them) it is tossed away for one excuse or another. Kind of like burning the birthday cake over and over again while the birthday celebrant hopes it comes before the strike of 12:00. In this case the Palestinians are awaiting the “birth of a nation”
Haitham, I second Raymond’s request for you to come on and shed some light on this. Minfadlik, shukran khathir.
To further confuse the matter, there are refugees living in camps within the West Bank and Gaza who are so determined because their original homes were gobbled up by Israel in 1948 or 1967.
West Bankers also have an interesting situation, being that they may possess any one of many i.d.’s. Some have the Palestinian I.D. that was issued after Oslo. Some have a Jerusalem I.D. which grants them Israeli “benefits”, without Israeli citizenship. Others have the Jordanian I.D. which requires them to go to Amman every 3 months to renew their visas, and still others merely have the laissez-passer, an internationally recognised travel document for stateless individuals. So, your i.d. determines where you can and cannot go. Of course, due to the deeply embedded settlements in the West Bank, all of this is contingent on the mood of the particular soldier you are showing the document to. Most people are prevented from travelling even between Bethlehem and Ramallah, and Jerusalem is out of the question unless you hold a Jerusalem I.D.
Another disturbing issue regards the many foreigners who work to help in Palestine and must cross into Jordan every 3 months to renew their visas and then cross back. Apparently, Israel has recently decided that they can no longer do this, and is no longer renewing their visas.
Raymond,
I actually get more and more and more depressed on a very personal level the more I learn. That’s not going to keep me from learning though because we ALL need to know. I’m getting so confused because what seems like “logical” is the most ILLOGICAL mess I have ever seen in my life. I’m more right-brained I guess and really LIKE logical, this is “screwing with my brain” and my psyche. Just a personal note. It’s CONFUSING and people’s lifes are at stake. These are real live human beings but why doesn’t America care? More to the “One” lyrics, “Sisters and brothers, ONE life, but we’re not the same. We get to carry each other Carry each other, ONE”
Here’s a link for you, then: http://www.concert4palestine.org/
Bono claims to care about such issues, but he and U2 have never touched the Palestine issue,
even with the similarities to his native Ireland. Besides that, U2 has played in Israel, so de-facto supports Israel.
Raymond,
That site above http://www.concert4palestine.org/
is EXCELLENT. I urge anyone reading here to link on to this if they want a very comprehensive and inclusive information source.
It covers just about every topic we have been discussing here, from a concise history of the conflict, to maps of the settlements, to the numbers of deaths on each side, to products to boycott, to a list of well known Jewish people who support a peaceful resolution to the problem. Raymond, honestly, thank you for providing it here. I have been spending so much time linking to link and the more I have done it, the more utterly depressed I have gotten, literally on overload (the lifetime student) This link makes what “didn’t make sense” make “sense”. I tend to want to know all the details. But make no mistake, “sense” does not mean “logical” to me. “Humane” means logical because it still does not make sense that this problem exists. Somewhere in the last couple of days I found a site written by an Israeli explaining just how the mere existance of the Palestinians has been erased out of the consciousness of Israel. It explains how they actually think they didn’t even exist except as a problem to be taken care of, dirty work so to speak. If I find it again, I’ll post.
Thanks again, Bono needs to realize this is Northern Ireland times 1000. His lyrics still hold true for me, even if he has not acted YET. There’s a campaign to get him to listen on this link guys. You can vote on a petition to him. Thank you Raymond, that’s really one of the best links posted here (Not because it’s for Bono, but for the information) Maybe next time you see him on the cover of Time Magazine for man of the year, he will be next to the people who finally sign a meaningful peace accord. Don’t think I’m suggesting we rely on Bono for this problem, but he sure can use his voice, “ONE” that is listened to by millions, to affect at the very least an increase in consciosness. Shukran khathir!!
mahleesh. it’s only a link, not a solution.
Raymond,
You’re absolutely right. But the information of the link helped me put MY scattered information together which is a great sigh of relief. I’ll take a hint from Kimmy, KISS, as he likes to say, Keep it simple stupid, but this link is Keep it simple smart!
Not any one rock star can solve anything, but when a song is recollected for the message it sends, say “All we are saying is give peace a chance” and the Viet Nam war it gives meaning to a song of a generation. Haitham had some site a while back about Pink Floyd’s last cd having song’s about Beirut and Palestine on it. I never knew this. Music can carry a message and be a powerful tool for change. Think of it this way, when I think about John Lennon, I think about his message. If this campaign can get Bono on board, even the young people who have absolutely no interest in domestic politics let alone world politics might listen. But like I said, it’s the info on the site that’s great for everyone here, getting Bono to listen and apply is going to take alot of work. His role would then be one of inspiration and any cause needs inspiration. He is very well respected world wide and if he can parlay that respect into bringing more attention that’s GREAT. Thanks again and
EVERYONE LOG ON TO THAT LINK!
Oh my god!!!
i cant say anything, thnx for sharing it with us!
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