Thanks for the replies

That is a very interesting site, although it did not give me much hope.

I do agree with you that if Hamas stood up and acted in a smart intelligent way, it would in a way force the Israeli’s to negotiate. In addition, possibly agree on a deal.

Although I do not believe that Israel will ever give back East Jerusalem or allow the exiled Palestinians to return.

I am not as hopeful as you are, and in fact, I do not think that I will see real peace there in my life time…but I would be glad to be proven wrong.

Thank you for your reply.

I am almost as pessimistic about Israel pulling back to the pre-1967 borders as you are, but only almost.

Imagine if Hamas came out and said that they would recognize Israel in the form described in UN resolution #181 that Israel has been defying for half a century.

Further, imagine if Hamas also said that though it cannot give any guarantees that nobody will commit suicide bombings or rocket attacks they will take all possible measures that there will be no such attacks for the next 12 months as a sign of good faith. Then Hamas would present a list with ‘demands’ (steps toward reaching the UN sanctioned solution including the UN sanctioned right of return) like removal of settlement blocks, return of the files with land claims (the ones Israel stole to prevent Palestinians to prove their UN sanctioned right of return), removal of the apartheid barrier completely or to the UN sanctioned pre-1947 borders, etc.

For every ‘step’ Hamas would promise to extend the 12 month period it will take all possible measures with one or two months until Israel has fully complied with the UN resolutions it has defyed for half a century. Last part of the Hamas declaration would be to give a guarantee that it will permanently take all possible measures from the day that Israel fully complies with the UN resolutions.

Currently it is an undisputed fact that extremists on both sides do not recognize the UN resolutions (which, realistically, is the best deal the Palestinians can hope for), because as long as Hamas does not recognize Israel, then they stand as the lunatics in the conflict and they make it easier for the Israelis to give good excuses for grabbing more land before a peace (that does not look like the UN resolutions) can be reached. But if Hamas recognizes Israel then they have shown the biggest possible sign of good faith without selling out the Palestinians. With that ‘good publicity’ they can explicitly tie every other sign of good faith to Israels compliance with the UN resolutions, because the name of the game is to show everybody that it is the Israeli extremists who are the assholes and not anybody on the Palestinian side.

With a little bit of luck this would work. The Israeli extremists have been too good at diverting the issue from the fact that there is a UN sanctioned solution and the Palestinian extrmists have been too good at helping it!

By the way have you seen this (http://www.nimn.org/) it is a Jewish organization in Illinois, USA and they offer the best and most objective view on the history of the conflict that I have ever seen anywhere (“The Geneva Bubble” by Ilan Pappe: http://www.nimn.org/Resources/geneva/000136.php?section=Geneva%20Initiative )

Although I do agree on many of the points you made, I do not see Israel ever pulling back to the pre 1967 boarders, that would mean that East Jerusalem will be a part of pelestine…this will not happen any time soon, as the Israely hard liners will not allow it.

Having said this, I just hope that Hamas party leaders will be smart enough to move towards peacfull means instead of the ineffective voilant ways. but this may only be wishfull thinking on my part.

I don’t have time for a thorough reply at the moment, but I will ask you to chew on a couple of aspects.

Yes, Palestinians are the weak side, there is no denying that, but that does not give them a license to be counter-productive.

Palestine IS recognized as a country by the EU, USA, even by Israel! What is not recognized by the USA and Israel is where the border is supposed to be. If Hamas does not want to recognize the borders either, then it creates two main problems; a) the Hamas is ‘just as bad’ as the Israeli extremists, and b) it gives Iraeli extremists a good excuse for trying to renegotiate something that should not be up for negotiation (the borders).

Regardless of what anybody think, the reality we have to work with is what is laid down in the UN resolutions calling on Israel to pull back behind the pre-1967 borders and recognize Palestinians right to return. Fair or not fair, this is the ‘will’ of the international community (the UN), so every distraction regardless whether it is extremists on the either side of the conflict or anybody else trying to create distractions will bring Palestinians a step further away from the goal of giving them a state.

Lets jump again on the bandwogen of Hamas refusing to admit the existance of Israel
Hamas has said more than once in many interviews.
Once Israel admit to the existance of a palestinian state.
We will have another say.

You see we are the weaker part here not Israelies.
Isreal is a state(whether we like it or not or Hamas like it or not).C’mon why do palestinian always have to make concessions.
Even before Hamas took power.Israel did not coopertae with Abbas.
and now they hold him in higher regard !!!! just after Hamas elections.Does not this tell you something?
I mean this is one of the reasons Hamas took power in the first place.The palestinian authority is weak,ineffective and needs a radical hardliner change.There need to be people to be clear and save the palestinians dignity from continuing condemnations and concessions.and Hamas (till now) is repeating .Accept a palestinian state and then we will have another say.
Why are the palestinians are demanded always to accept Isreal.I mean Gosh.Americans and Europeans condemn them like they are a Superpower or something.Like i previously mentioned we are the weak here.Its not like we have a choice to accept Israel existance and palestinians accept the bitter truth.

And by the way Hamas before may not nessarily be the one now.
After all.Hamas members are palestinians.and they will not be able to forse “islamic” rules on everyone cause that will give Fatah and its other million haters and cospirators a reason to
bash Hamas and outset it.I mean Hamas is in a critical condition already.forcing these rules will only make the situation more worse than it is now.Besides they have Hussam al Tawil.A christian candiatate who mentioned several times that Hamas will not be able to forse anything on anyone since they know the palestinian society is diverse.And I am sure that if Hamas did anything stupid Al tawil will be the first to attack them or condem them.and palestinian people will not forgive them since.We are very tough with eachother and critical.Not to mention America,Europe and Isreal combined criticism and attacks if they did that.

I am not jumping to conclusions but Obviously people do not respect the choice the palestians in land made and worse they are not giving Hamas an oppurtinity and time before judging and stopping the help and money.

I say wait and see.
I am very dissappointed at palestinian factions inland mostly.
You see Hamas is politically inexperienced.Hamas know this and because of this they asked for Palestinian factions to have a role in forming the goverment.They are supposed to help/Hamas asked them after all.They asked for unity and help yet they rejected under American pressure.Sad.. very sad.

you know one of the corrupted Fatah member in Tunis take more than 800 dollar and he does absolutely NOTHING but drink alchol is some bar.I mean NOTHING.Wow..Is that the kinda “goverment” you are gonna support.and there are worse examples.
Hamas is not like them.Fatah deserve what happend to them in the elections.They lost the hearts and the confidence and they need to work on that.What happened with Fatah in the elections was
JUSTICE ON EARTH.Palestinians spoke against corruption and i felt back then that Allah might forgive/help us because we made a wise decion by outsetting them.I say we becuae if i was living there
i would definiteley Not vote for them (Fatah).

again i am not saying Hamas in perfect.Its new and they have zero
experince in politics but i believe i have to give them more time.
and i wish them success for the sake of palestinians.No other reason.

You wrote:
“Why the intense hate for Hamas?
They won’t do anything stupid
Don’t worry
This is all talk.”

It is so very simple that even Hamas should be able to understand it!

Palestinian extremists (Hamas) refuse to accept the exact same UN resolutions that the US administration is continuously helping Israeli extremists refuse to accept. The only difference is that Hamas does not have a hypocritter like the Bush to support them. This does not justify that Hamas should have a world bully to support them as well, but that it is unfair (to put it mildly) that the Bush supports the Israeli extremists. What Hamas is doing is stupid, because they are alienating international support of Palestine and sabotage every attempt to stop the Bush’s support of the Israeli extremists.

Hamas is extremistic, because what they are doing is extremely stupid and definitely not in the best interest of Palestinians. I know that Hamas is doing a lot for Palestinians in the form of social support etc., but as long as Hamas refuses to recognize the state of Israel then they are destroying any hope Palestinans can have for finally getting their own state as they deserve.

The EU, among others, have recently cut funding to Hamas, not because the EU is against a Palestinian state, not because the EU is against Palestinians, but because the EU does not want to support an organization that talks about throwing Israel into the sea – which is completely counter-productive in settling the Israel-Palestine conflict.

I am against the EU policy of appeasing Israel, but that does not mean that I am against the EU policy of not supporting Hamas with funding. Extremists on both sides must recognize the UN resolutions, so I am against support of both groups working against the UN resolutions.

That the EU is passively accepting Israeli extremism does not justify that we should actively support Palestinian extremism as well. I am writing to EU parliamentarians that they should stop their support of extemists in Israel, but I cannot justify that they should support extremists in Palestine instead.

I appreciate that the EU is the largest financial supporter of the Palestinian people and therefore I am happy that EU politicians had enough sense to continue to be the largest financial supporter of Palestinians (the 25% of the money that previously was donated to Fatah for administatrion etc. has been cut, but the 75% that has been donated directly to social institutions and infrastructure projects will continue to be donated to non-Hamas organizations).

I know the 25% cut is going to hurt a lot of ‘bureaucrats’ in Palestine – even those who do not support Hamas – and I am sad about that. But I, and the EU politicians, do not see any other options. I just hope that Palestinians are smart enough to understand that they have lost financial support of an extrimist organization because it is an extremist organization and not because the EU no longer supports Palestine.

To get back to your initial statement that Hamas won’t do anything stupid. Well, they are doing something stupid, I just hope they will do something smart and recognize Israel’s right to exist, because it is a lot easier for me and other supporters of Palestine to criticize that the government of Israel does not recognize the UN resolutions without being accused of supporting Palestinian extremists who do not recognize the UN resolutions either.

We as palestinians who live outside the land.
yeah i agree we have a the right to have a say.but my mother said the palestinians living in Palestine are very very different from those who have lived in jordan,Gulf states,Chile.you name it. and she right.Many palestinias fee al mehjar who visted the lands and noticed the difference especilly in the psycology of people.

I do believe when palestinian elected Hamas.They made a conciuos deciosn and is well though.They have outseted the corrupt goverment of Fatah and put another goverment that is testified for its social services and fighting.
Like the jordanian poster said having a say here(out) is not like having a say (in)there.Its just not the same.

Like i mentioned it was a conisious decison.
And while i know some of far realtives who died as martyers.I a not living there.I would be 10000 more enraged if i was living there or more affected…

I am not sure if i was currently living there.I would choose hamas or not.Its a possibility.i never know because i sadly never had the chance to live there.I am saying things there are different.

I wish them the best for our sake.and if they messed.The palestinians will outset them like they did with Fatah.
Thats the essence of democray after all.
I am glad it is practically working her.Election Abbas and election of Hamas and after three more years we will have another president.Thats the bright side.

Taliban.again sorry they are far far better and superior.
While its true they have an islamic view when approcahing things their base in nationalistic after all.They care about palestinians the most.You don’t find them bragging about Iraqis or Afganis.They are deeply concerned with their problems.They have a christian among them.If supposedley they do anythng wrong.He would ne the first to attch them.

I wish them all the best.It is an islamic party yes.
But palestinian muslims are different from the taliban.They are better educated.They have fear from Allah.Be5afo rabna.
Can Islamic parties in Palestine be differend from what is around the Islamic/arab world.I sure hope so..
Hamas has a long history for fighting and social services for more than 15 years.
School.Hospitals…and you call them Taliban.Disappointing.

Let me take it from a sentimental poist of view.Can you deny their love for Palestine and wish to make palestinian life better.

I find it very very disappointing for you to compare it to Taliban.

Hamas members are palestinian after all and not outsiders.
They are not perfect.but this is not the time to bash them.
They are inexperienced.they asked help from all the palestinian factions.and they refused under American pressure.They asked the world to give them the chance.To help them with money and yet everyone is refusing to give a hand even the U.N.

Can it get any worse?

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