Bellydancing out, cinema in!
Written by Haitham Sabbah on 06. April 2006, 2040hrs // Part of Haitham Sabbah's adventure in Failures, Human Rights, Islam, Palestine, Religion // Other posts by Haitham Sabbah
‘We’re not the Taliban. We love Jesus. We love Moses’ - New Palestinian culture minister, Attallah Abu al-Sibbah speaking to The Guardian
So far so good, but what about real life under Hamas? Well, Attallah was kind enough (and stupid enough) to tell us the following:
As the new Palestinian culture minister, he will not be ordering the dynamiting of statues nor forbidding prayers to anyone but Allah. But there are limits - and belly dancing is one of them. “Belly dancing is naked women. This is not Islamic. The Egyptians come here and do it. And there are a lot of Russian belly dancers in Egypt and they come here too. People do it indoors, in secret. There’s lots of it. If the phenomenon of belly dancing spreads our people might react against it by killing people. We don’t want our people to become like the Taliban.”
Duh! So who is “our people“? Of course he means Hamas. The Islamic Fundamentalist Hamas . And is he telling us that the only difference between Hamas and Taliban is killing belly dancers? God! But I won’t be surprised. Ok, at least we can guess who will kill the belly dancer!
Let me tell you something guys. If Hamas is going to fail (and they will) and get kicked out of office, this is how it is going to happen. Their stupidity and the internal condemnation of pissed enough Palestinians. Palestinians are a famously liberal and secular group of Arabs, and after all this, the vast majority remains so. For proof, just look at what it is that the Hamas minister is trying to ban.
For a start he will ban casinos and see if there is a way to ban the sale of alcohol. He also wants segregation of men and women in places of public entertainment and an end to what he sees as rampant “nakedness”.
“There was an Egyptian singer who came and there was big trouble because she was not properly dressed, and some people wanted her and some people didn’t,” he said.
Just for argument sake, let us suggest that she was naked, so? If you don’t like it, don’t go to watch her, unless you wanted her. Plus this is not the real reason, otherwise, why Hamas was about to kill the Arab Future Superstar Ammar Hassan (the second elected in Future Superstar, the Arabic version of the famous “American Idol“), the Palestinian superstar? Was he naked too? or did some people want him and some didn’t?
More of what Hamas wants to ban:
“There’s moral corruption. The blue films Israel sends us are quite corrupting. We have to resist them.
“And we’re not going to allow books with any pictures of Madonna in bed.”
The Gaza strip’s three big cinemas closed at the beginning of the first intifada in 1987, and never reopened. Mr Sibbah thinks they should start showing films again but he is concerned about what the viewers will see.
“I would open cinemas. It could be an education and help people live better. Hollywood is not all bad. Titanic was a good film, a human film,” he said, apparently having cast from his mind the scenes of Kate Winslet disrobed.
Then what? Cut the power so people won’t watch blue on satellite? Convert Madonna to Islam so that she starts singing for prophet? Sponsor Hollywood so that they make only “human films”? Isn’t Love and Sex “human norms”? Let’s just hope that they don’t come up with a law that allows a woman to ask for divorce if her husband don’t keep clothes on for sex 
Let’s list some of what will be banned, keeping in mind that this is Haram (religiously forbidden) not by Hamas only, but by ALL Muslim Extremist everywhere around the world:
1. Alcohol - All bars and restaurants serving them will be closed. Good for economy!
2. Sex (without marriage) - Haram. And if you are married, put on your cloths
3. Gambling - All casinos will be closed. Foreign currency is Haram too!
4. Music and Singing - No public or private parties, no entertainment, no for being human. If at all you are bored, listen to bullets flying over the next street between Hamas and Fatah
5. Painting - Art galleries will be closed, statues will be destroyed. Will close our eyes on Buddha statues if any.
6. Cinema - Only showing the “Message” film, by Mustapha Al Aqqad (who was killed by Terrorists calling themselves Muslims during Amman explosions), and Titanic (since the Minister likes it).
7. Female Education - Only segregated, better at home and early married. Not allowed to enter medical, art, engineering, pharmacy, sport, law, politics, science, … anything that can get her a job away from a kindergarten or at most a school.
8. Dancing - You will get killed, specially if you are Egyptian or Russian belly dancer. Would someone please tell us which nationality the minister prefers?
9. Fashion - For Hamas this is rampant “nakedness”. So for woman, only black from head to toes. And for men, Dishdasha, preferably white, and at least 20 cm above the ground (see picture below for directions), Islamic Jeans not allowed!
10. Just name it… will leave this space for you to fill.
Did I forget anything? Ah.. Madonna in bed!!
And you are telling us that “Hamas is not the Taliban”? Get real Attallah!!
Welcome to Hamasistan!
Do you like - Bellydancing out, cinema in! - 
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April 6th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
LOL, this is so funny it hurts. Aham ishi inno 3ajabo Titanic
April 7th, 2006 at 12:13 am
Actually you need to go to Gaza strip…. Palestians are liberal?
Maybe this was true like 30 years ago!
But not anymore….
April 7th, 2006 at 1:17 am
Wow, how sad.
April 7th, 2006 at 4:48 am
Very Funny!
April 7th, 2006 at 7:31 am
What a depressing and boring world we will have if our life is so purely sterilized like Hamas minister wants.
April 7th, 2006 at 8:44 am
First of all the assumption that the majority of Palestinians or Arabs for that matter, are secular, is incorrect. If fear and corruption is removed then Islamists or Islamic parties will win in basically every Arab country with an easy majority.
Second, I don’t believe the state should ban anything unless the majority of people vote on it. Bans on alcohol, porn, etc, these are things that have been debated in every country in the world and conservatives even in the states try to ban them.
The theory of, if you dont like it dont watch/read/listen to it is inevitably constricted by the majority in any democracy. You will never have a free society where 100% of the people are opposed to say pornography, or its various elements which they feel reflect it such as bellydancing. But if it’s put to a vote and the majority oppose it then it should be removed. That’s how a democracy works.
If the majority of people want bellydancing, they get bellydancing
If the majority of people want porn, give them porn
However if the majority of people want Hamas, they get Hamas
vox populi
Hamas doesn’t have the strength to dominate, no Palestinian party or organization does. The power has always remained with the people. If Hamas goes around banning breathing and showering and the people don’t like it they won’t stand for it.
April 7th, 2006 at 9:32 am
I would ban belly dancing too. Reason: I am sick of seeing women being treated as piece of meat. Might I add: playboy and porn into the list?
My problem with your view Haithem is your tendency to ridicule some of the above actions with the giant banner called: liberal.
The American Family Association demanded Wal-mart to stop advertising Brokeback Mountain with the premise: it is against our family values. Nobody here is calling that Jesus-land…albeit echoes of ire were heard.
If Hamas wants to create a nation where moral values are being uphold…(instead of creating a nation with 50% divorce rate or 32% of kids born out of wedlock, or 11 000 people killed by gun shots every year. …Or a nation where women are afraid to even walk in the streets at 3 in the morning, where men dehumanized women into bitches and chicks and ass and breast…or a nation in dire need of Zoloft)…it needs to draw the moral boundary.
While Hamas must NOT impose hijab/veils …they must stop women from being turned into sexual objects, being abused by their husbands or men.You might wanna be in locker room here to hear how disgusting some men could be.And yeah we in the West have been liberated by the feminists since 80 years ago.80 years and we still could find sick men breathing and living here.
Tell me Haithem, what is wrong with banning Madonna if your premise is: to refuse women from being treated as sexual objects?
If there’s anything the Muslim world should learn is not to imitate Saudi Arabia or the Dutch.
Malcolm X once said this:
“America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in Muslim land, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered “white” … I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color…
“During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or in the same rug) – while praying to the same God – with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions and in the deeds of “white” Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.
- The Autobiography of Malcolm X
Just last week White male students at Duke uni yelled racial epitaph to a Black stripper.She alleged them of raping her.
No amount of Westernization could liberate women or kill racism.Just so you know.
Btw, shouldn’t Hamas pay more attention on how to build the economy and the school first?
April 7th, 2006 at 9:34 am
might I add:
I believe women and men should receive equal treatment.
April 7th, 2006 at 11:46 am
Freedom and democracy are two completely different things. The first is a concept and a value based on tolerance and respect for others while the second is a concept or principle (but not a value) describing a state form or a principle for decision making.
A democracy is in no way a guarantee for freedom as you can easily have democracy without freedom, but you can never have freedom without democracy.
Unless you use your religion for your own spiritual guidance, then you turn your religion into something disgusting, intolerant, and discriminatory/racistic. If you aim for domination of thought with your religion, then you are desecrating the only justification for religion, because then you use it as an evil tool to impose a democratic dictatorship and strip others of freedom.
Please note that I mention religion in general since one religion is just as bad as the other if it is being abused.
Nas,
What you are promoting may be democracy, but you cannot pretend that you promote freedom. Slavery, oppression, or intolerance is equally bad no matter if it is the tyranny of one person, a small group of people, or a large group (the majority).
You do describe democracy, but as a democratic dictatorship. This is not an oxymoron, but if you try to couple freedom with your concept of democracy then it will be just as senseless as talking about loving hatred or free serfs.
You use the word ‘conservatives’, but though the word can mean old fashioned (as in their medieval way of thinking) it would be much more correct to call them ‘religious moralizers’, ‘bigots’, or ‘aspiring dictators’.
A coin, a die, or democracy are tools that can be used in decision making, but they do not guarantee the quality of the decisions that can be made with them.
April 7th, 2006 at 11:53 am
Mr.:
alchohol,sex,gambling,certain types of music,dancing in public,and the fashion industry are all against human nature,they’r unhealthy and they should be banned!..though i love music and fashion design,but they’r just not right!…acoording to islam…maybe hamas went out of line with some rules…but mocking some of islam’s basic rules…that only help humans form a healthy society isnt the right thing…u just have to be honest with urself…and admit that half of those things banned have a fatal effect on sociaty….i dont understand why people are suprised or even pissed when someone’s trying to apply islam!
April 7th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
What is wrong with prostitution, pornography, and erotic magazines?
If they are created by people who have the freedom to choose between taking part and not taking part in their production and if both the ones who appreciate their existense and those who do not have the freedom to choose between buying the service/product or not buying the service/product then what is so wrong with that?
What I think is very wrong is that the ‘family values’ that religious prudes and the American Family Association promote are based on intolerance and bigotry!
Jared, Dozz,
If you think all those problems you mention comes from seeing naked human bodies, then I suggest that you cover all your mirrors (especially in your bathroom) and that you blindfold yourself and your partner when you have sex. While I will blindfold my wife once in a while as a part of foreplay you and your partner can practice blindfolding as a form of safe sex
Isn’t freedom of choice a wonderful thing we should protect?
April 7th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Firas, Nas, Jared, et al…
Just to add to what Thomas said, let me remind you that equal number, if not more Palestinians live in the Diaspora. Therefore, what you describe as democracy is half true, since the other half of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas (did not get the chance to vote of anyone).
Second, Palestinian who vote for Hamas did so not to ban this and that, but trying to find an alternative for economical and political issues, not to ban Egyptian belly dancers.
It is clear that Hamasistan has no political or economical agenda, and they don’t know what and how to do things. Therefore, their exercise to ban this and that shows exactly what mentality they have, which is narrow and does not reach beyond the borders of Halal and Haram.
Third, you are telling me that “if fear and corruption” is removed, Islamist parties would win all over Arab states. Are you telling me that there is no “fear and corruption” in Palestine?
If I my remind all, Palestine is not Islamic state, was never and will never be. Palestine is the cradle of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I don’t think you can compare that with any of the surrounding countries or any country around the world. Therefore, if we Palestinian want to have an independent state, it can’t be Islamic one, and should not be at any cost. Hamas is not after Palestine, and we all know it. Hamas belongs to the bigger dream of the Islamic Empire, with the Imam as the head of the empire, and the green flag flying in the sky. Same dream which was once called Afghanistan.
And welcome to Hamasistan again!
April 7th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Thomas, I respect your opinion but I disagree. People will tend to vote for what they feel is in their best benefit. Slavery is not something palestinians are going to be voting on anytime sense. In that tradition a democracy is formed based on the majority voice. These are free thinking adults who face real life threats and occupation. If we are talking about children who are voting to eat cake for breakfast then yes it would not be a “true democracy” in the sense that certain values are destroyed.
Haitham,
First of all, Palestinians in diaspora are not the same as Palestinians in Palestine. This isn’t like saying some people live in Jordan but most Jordanians live abroad. Palestine is occupied and facing certain realities that those Palestinians abroad cannot begin to comprehend (the most). If they feel Hamas is best for them then so be it. It’s their reality, they have to live with it, not Palestinians abroad. If they don’t like Hamas, they will remove them. etc.
Second, I agree with this point. Brother I’m not defending Hamas, I’m defending the people’s right to choose them. But don’t for a moment underestimate the intelligence of the Palestinian people. They are familiar with the Hamas platform, even before it was a party. You expect certain things when you vote for them. Certain consequences.
Third, there is both fear and corruption but it does not dominate. You will not get a mubarak winning 99.9% in Palestine! By regional standards it’s the most democratic now.
As for an Islamic state. Depends on the implications. What is it? A nation who is like the taliban? Or simply one’s whose state religion is Islam? I don’t neither will exist. However if a state is established, and independent one, with a functioning parliament…Islamists will continue to win the majority for generations and like any other party will be voted on for its platform and will implement that platform. Hamas is an alright example of that i suppose. It’s still kind of new and hard to tell. But now that its gone political it will form that platform, including the banning of this and that.
April 7th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Nas,
It is clear that Hamas represent part of the Palestinians, however, one have to keep in mind that Palestinian in exile also have needs and rights that no one is looking after, not by Hamas, nor it was by the previous administration. This is not a small issue, as you are talking about millions of Palestinians. If they were given the chance to vote, I won’t say that Hamas would not have won, but let me say, I would not have had the right to claim that this administration does not represent Palestinians. It represents only Palestinians under occupation, and they know better than me what they need, however, what about what I need? In other words, I’m looking at the big picture, and wondering, is this what the Palestinians want? I can claim it is not. At least no one can claim so until and unless I get my right to vote.
Having said that, yes, maybe those who voted for Hamas, voted to ban this and that, but I didn’t get my right to vote! And until that happens, no one can claim that that’s what Palestinians want.
The problem is that between Palestinian themselves. The Palestinian under occupation think that we living in the exile do not have the right to say what is good and what is bad. While that might be true in some cases, but here we are talking about a state ID. A state which does not belong only to Palestinians under occupation, but to all Palestinians.
I’m rushing in my reply now as I have to go out, will catch with you later.
April 7th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Sorry Haitham, but when you say “Let’s list some of what will be banned, keeping in mind that this is Haram (religiously forbidden) not by Hamas only, but by ALL Muslim Extremist everywhere around the world:”
You are WRONG! It is not only Muslim extremists who are against alcohol, gambling and the like, it is anyone is honestly trying to be a practicing Muslims. Those of us right down the middle of the road are against this stuff as well.
When you characterise this stuff as being haraam only to extremists you are being unfair. You cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. I pray, I dont drink, dont gamble, but I certainly listen to music. There are some things, such as alcohol, gambling, sex outside of marriage with are recognised by ALL practicing Muslims as haraam, other things do tend to stray into the extremist area…..ie music, art ect.
But your portrayal of not drinking and gambling as making you an extremist is just wrong, completely unfair and untrue, and you know it. These are usually the arguments used by those Muslims who want to justify their own drinking, gambling, having sex outside of marriage, to try and say that those who dont do these things are extremists.
Sorry, this isnt the case.
April 7th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Abu Sinan,
I’m not talking about Islam as a religion, but Islam as a system for governance. Yes, all of these are forbidden by Islam as religion, and Muslims as practice, but keep in mind that Palestine is not Saudi Arabia, nor I like it to be Islamic state.
I was recently reading an interesting article about Iran. Might be good example of another type of “Muslim” community:
In bootleg liquor battle, Iran finds 7,000-year-old habit is tough to break - http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/03/news/journal.php
April 7th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Haitham, my personal belief is that Palestinians on the outside have no right to vote for who governs those living under occupation. Keep in mind this is an occupation and Palestinian is not yet an actual state.
But you keep saying your rights. What rights do you have? All my friends are Palestinian and none of them have ever been there. What rights do they have? Are we to give this person the right to vote and put someone in power who does not represent the Palestinians in Palestine?
This is such a delicate situation, Palestinians outside have no idea about the realities of the inside. We hear and we see, but experience is different. it’s easy to condemn a wall, but another thing to actually have to walk around it everyday.
We also have to keep in mind that the numbers outside are way more than the inside, hence giving them the vote means they are selecting the power to goven who ever lives inside.
So when we say “this is what Palestinians want” we are really saying “this is what Palestinians living under the occupation really want”
at the end of the day, that’s who really matters in my opinion.
if you can give me a list of your rights that you feel need to be represented tell me and maybe ill change my mind
April 7th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
[...] !!
And you are telling us that ?Hamas is not the Taliban?? Get real Attallah!!"
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/0…out-cinema-in/
[...]
April 7th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Nas,
Freedom is both a right and an obligation. It is the right to sovereign decision making in matters that affect one-self, but it is also the obligation to protect the right to sovereign decision making of others.
Children are under the care and protection of their parents until they reach legal age when they are no longer disenfrachised. Legally, children cannot be expected to act in their best interest in a responsible manner and therefore their responsibilities are represented by an adult/adults who is/are entrusted to represent the best interest of the child.
I am an adult, so I do not need you to tell me what is in my best interest!
In some cases somebody who is adult by age can still be disenfranchised if he/she has inadequate mental capacity due to a handicap or as a result of an accident. Legally, mentally incapacitated people cannot be expected to act in their best interest in a responsible manner and therefore their responsibilities are represented by a mentally capable adult/adults who is/are entrusted to represent the best interest of the mentally incapacitated adult.
I am also mentally capable, so I still do not need you to tell me what is in my best interest!
As part of your freedom you have the right to think that you are a more moral person than I am, but if you try to disenfranchise me by bullying me to accept your morals, then you are not meeting your obligation to protect my right to sovereign decision making.
If you are incapable of handling the right and the obligation that comes with freedom, then maybe it is you, and not me, who should be put under administration by an adult who is capable of handling your obligations and responsibilities for you
Seeking spiritual and moral guidance in religion is healthy, but if your religious studies makes you an oppressive bigot, then it is a mental disorder!
April 7th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
[...] !!
And you are telling us that ?Hamas is not the Taliban?? Get real Attallah!!"
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/0…out-cinema-in/
[...]
April 7th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Can we stop the incoherent rants against the U.S., please?
I write the above as Duke student, btw.
April 7th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Natalia,
Calm down for a second! Who is ranting against the U.S.?
April 7th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Abu Sinan,
I do not have a problem with that you do not drink alcohol or gamble if you believe that is the ‘moral way’, because that is none of my business.
I do not have a problem with that you think it is immoral and wrong of me that I drink alcohol and gamble (sometimes even at the same time), because what you think is your business and none of my business.
However, if you threathen to destroy my freedom by forcing your ‘moral way’ onto me, then you are an extremist which I do have a problem with, because your threat to my freedom makes it my business.
You are right, it is not only Muslim extremists who are against alcohol and gambling, but Christian extremists are the exact same shit as Muslim extremists. The Muslims and Christians who understand the difference between their business and my business are not extremists, they are people like me!
Even though you do not drink or gamble, I would probably still find you to be a nice person if we met. And even though I drink and gamble, you would probably find me a nice person as well (unless you interpret your religion to demand that you have to meet me with intolerance and hostility).
April 7th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Abu Sinan,
By the way, if we meet, then I promise that I will stop my drinking and gambling while we are talking to avoid unnecessary distractions
April 7th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Thomas i feel like i’ve said something to offend you. i am not attacking any of your beliefs.
I am saying Palestinians should not be treated like children in the sense that they don’t know what’s good for them, or that they are irresponsible with their freedom. It’s their freedom! Their choice. If people don’t like it, who cares.
If a party runs on a platform and says we are going to ban everything on this list…people have the choice to elect these people.
if they dont like the affects of those bans then next time around they wont elect them. isn’t that how a democracy works?
April 7th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Nas,
I was commenting your post #13 and the discussion about the difference between freedom and democracy. I did not move on to the Palestine topic - yet
April 7th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Nas,
This is completely unfair. Let me use the same approach… Non Palestinian has no idea about the realities of being lost with no home land. They hear and see, but experience is different, it’s easy to condemn an occupation, but another thing to actually not being allowed to live at your home.
How does it feel?
You want a list of my rights? Ok, how about a simple one, “right to return”. You would say, it’s not the Palestinians who stop me from going home, I agree, but who do you think from the Palestinian living under occupation cares about my right to return? Why should I trust that this government of any government will care about me as far as they don’t have anyone who represents me?
Give me a break, Nas. We are talking about a group which cares more about who goes to mosque and who does not more than caring about getting the bread to the starving people.
Islam is a religion, not a way of life; otherwise it would have sustained its success through the history.
You want to be a good Muslim, be my guest, do what you like, as far as I do what I like. Keep religions out of all this. It might have worked 1400 years ago, when ignorance and illiterates where everywhere. It still does work in illiterate societies like Pakistan and Afghanistan, but look at them, terrorist kitchen. It won’t work in our region, not as a constitution, not as an enforced way of life, not as a government.
Hamas is destroying all what Palestinian has achieved, even if those achievements are small when compared to other societies.
April 7th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
ogh come one Haithem…one good example is Malaysia:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8300
USA itself is an incoherent nation..so no amount of points will uphold it.The same goes to the “prestigious” Duke .
Freedom…freedom.freedom…yeah..that’s the same sound bite that legalize prostitution in Holland.And allow strip club to mushroom.
one day western civilization will be destroyed,not by bombs but by our moral values,or lack of it.
Zoloft,anyone?
April 7th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
it should be come one=come on…..when you type too fast..typo happened.
April 7th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Okay Haitham, I got you. I wouldnt ban such things because in Islam our intention is what really counts. How is one judged on their intention when they are FORCED to do something? Wearing hijab, not drinking, not gambling, it doesnt mean a thing if you havent made a CHOICE not to do it.
Those religious powers in places like Saudi dont get this. This is exactly why Saudis go to the USA, Bahrain, UAE, Lebanon, and play the fool, drinking, whoring, killing families in drink drive accident.
I am not a Palestinian, but my two cents on the issue of where you live is this. It is the people that are actually there, at the moment, that have to live and cope with the choice made. It is all nice and fine for people abroad to harp, but you dont have to sit and live through bombs being nightly dropped on your area in Gaza.
If you have such a passion for Palestine and want to have a say, then the best place to have your voice heard and actually effect change is in Palestine.
Look at Arafat and his lot, out of Palestine for decades and when they came back they were not really welcomed, they were called “Tunisians.” They came in and pushed aside everyone who had stayed for years, struggled with the Israelis, and never left.
The people who STAYED are the real heros. They deserve their due.
April 7th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
Haitham-Give me a break, Nas. We are talking about a group which cares more about who goes to mosque and who does not more than caring about getting the bread to the starving people.
I disagree with this 100%. Hamas won the election BECAUSE they got the bread to the people. If you discount this, then you dont understand Islam. Hamas has been feeding thousands of Palestinians on a daily basis, building schools and hospitals whils the seecular Palestinian leadership has been feeding their bank accounts with the Palestinian’s money.
Hamas, I think, will be just like Hizb’Allah. They are well respected by even the Christians in the areas they were elected because they stood up for the right things, got people services and were not corrupt.
My question to you is, what other choice is there? All of the secular/PLO types of proven themselves worthless and corrupt.
There are many people that would reject anything from a group that openly calls itself “Islamic”. It used to be just the neo-cons in the USA, now it is coming from some sections in the Middle East itself.
Islam does not equal bad or repressive.
April 7th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
Haitham-Islam is a religion, not a way of life; otherwise it would have sustained its success through the history.
Ah, there we go, the crux of the situation. Most Muslims, probably 99% of us, would tell you that religion IS a way of life. This has always been the way I understood it, as does every Muslim I know. Islam is a religion, a religion is a way of life. Islam is not something you leave to Eid or Fridays, it is something that affects every minute of your life, from birth to death, from waking to sleeping.
That certainly sounds like a way of life, as well as a religion. All religions used to view themselves today, seems as if Islam is the only religion that views itself this way still.
This is one of the main reasons I left Christianity, it really seemed like a part time thing that wasnt what your life was centered around. Islam, your life is centered around your religion. Everything you do you keep God in mind.
If you think Islam is a religion, in the same manner that Christians in the West practice theirs, then our understanding of Islam is vastly different.
For all practicing Muslims Islam is a complete way of life. I guess if you are not practicing then you can relegate it to a corner of your life to be trotted out on Eid, maybe Friday prayers so the “people” will see you attend. You can mumble “Insha’Allah” when you dont mean it and “Alhamdulillah” when the only time you really remember God is when you run out of booze money.
April 7th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Thomas, dont play the fool. I reacted to Haitham when he said that only extremist Muslims think they people shouldnt drink, gamble, you name it.
Drink, gamble, go to the whorehouse, I dont care less. I believe in the freedom to choose. But if I choose not to do so it doesnt make me an extremist.
I have spent a lot of time in Denmark, I am glad I didnt run into people as rude as you. But I guess having blond hair and blue eyes helps me. I bet my treatment wouldnt have been as good if I had dark skin and hair eh?
April 7th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
Abu Sinan,
Would you please read before you type?
Yes, people who stayed are heroes. But keep in mind that people who left didn’t have the choice to stay, which makes them heroes too.
And who you are presenting when you talk about Arafat and what you call “his lot”? Did you ever suffer from being homeless, without ID, without home, without passport, without the simplest human right, to live with dignity? I guess not.
Before giving lecture to Palestinians (under occupation or living in exile), please take a moment and live their life for a day.
Again, Hamas does not represent Palestinians. It represents less than half of them, and as a Palestinian, I have the right to call them all names as far as I don’t have a representative of Palestinian living in exile in this government or any government.
Jared,
Palestine is not Malaysia. However, Hamas is another Taliban, which makes Palestine a recipe of Afghanistan, called Hamasistan.
You guys keep on saying “it is the people who lives in there has the right, blah blah blah…” sorry, this is not true, because those who do not live their have not chosen to live outside Palestine. Had it been the case, then I would agree.
A Palestinian refugee has all the rights, if not more that those who live inside. At least those who live inside are living with some dignity in their homes, but those in refugee camps has no dignity left.
I invite you to visit one of the refugee camps in any of the surrounding country. Or go and visit the new camp between Iraq and Jordan. Are these Palestinians? Who is living better, the one in Palestine or the one living in a refugee camp? I guess you can guess, and if you don’t go visit a camp.
April 7th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Abu Sinan,
Design a life around the religion you like. Enjoy your Islamic life. But, don’t enforce it on others.
April 7th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
You’re assuming that because I’m Jordanian that I therefore don’t feel with the Palestinian cause? What if I told you I was half Palestinian? Would that make a difference? Would I finally have a new worldview different from my current one? A credible one?
And what home? Israel has taken 80% of the land. Most Palestinians I know live in Amman and have never gone to Palestine. Some of them are even second generation are parenting the third generation.
Palestinians lost their homes, tragedy yes, I don’t deny that. But to say that I have the right to vote to elect someone to govern a people and their land which I have no seen nor lived on for 60 years now…how does that feel to Palestinians inside?
lol are you kidding? Haitham, brother, return to what? to where? over 300 villages have dissapeared off the face of the Earth. Palestinians are struggling to keep what little land they have now! let alone have to give it to Palestinians who havn’t been there for 60 years. Houses are being demolished, land stolen, settlements built…and you want to impose you’re right to come back to Palestine?
But hey, I don’t care. If you want that, that’s your right…but don’t expect Palis inside Palestine to be thrilled about that. In the meantime the Palestinians inside Palestine have rights which outrank anyone else. If your blood is being spilt then you’ve earned the right to elect a governing body; and not a second generation living in abdoun or even honolulu.
That’s incorrect. Hamas has had social programs as an organization which have succeeded on a much greater level than any other organization. Many Palestinians in the occupied territories can testify to that. The people have been starving for years, what they want is justice; that is why you have Hamas. To them Hamas is currently the only thing which gives them some degree of justice and hence some feeling of dignity.
But when Hamas starts denying Palestinians bread and starts whipping them to go to mosques…well then we’ll have another chat.
Also incorrect. Islam is a complete way of life. It is designed that way; it balances worship and legislation to form that system. This is fact. It has succeeded in the past and it has failed in the past, but the system has not changed..only the implementation. (this is a digression btw I just couldn’t let such a remark pass unaddressed)
You are right, because Islam is only for ignorant illiterates. It has no place amongst the educated masses. If you’re using Pakistan and Afghanistan as models of Islamic states, then you’re in bigger trouble than I thought. As for Palestine, if Palestinians want an Islamic state and they go to polls and their votes reflect this belief, then they should have an Islamic state. If they want a secular, communist, lockean liberal, or ice cream…they should get it! It’s their voice and their right.
Maybe, I’m not a fan of Hamas. If I was living there (and was Palestinian) I wouldn’t have voted for them. But Palestine is the only functioning democracy in the middle east right now, and the people got a piece of paper and a voice…they voted for who they felt was best for them. That is their right. I defend that right, not the choice.
Haitham, I know this is your blog and youre free to respond in the manner which you please but allow me to simply request that you do not patronize me next time around. The fact that I am not Palestinian should not matter with an issue I believe is Arab. The fact that I am a Muslim should not mean that I am a supporter of Hamas or any other Islamic organizations. But I defend the right for Palestinians to vote no matter what the outcome.
April 7th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Just because someone has a problem with Islam as a religion AND a way of life, it doesn’t mean he should as well attack whoever belongs to it. Don’t look at the name of the religion or the nationality for that matter.
Aside from being guilty of being practicing Muslims, where did they go wrong?
They closed casinos? aside from the moral corruption, does anyone around here thinks that under occupation people need casinos and alcohol? seriously.
April 7th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Nas,
I’m not patronizing you, I just used the same concept you used on me. You deny me my rights to speak as a Palestinian because I don’t live in Palestine, so what gives you or anyone else the right to deny my rights and claim that others rights are more important than mine?
On the other hand, yes Palestine is occupied, and whatever percentage and number of villages are destroyed, but does that mean I have no right to claim my land still? What are you talking about? Forget the destroyed ones, what about west Bank (which is where I’m from). My home is still standing still. Don’t I have the right to return? What are you saying? I should give up? I guess not. That is my home, and a government which I don’t like is on land, I guess I have the right to question them. You look at them as your best Islamic example that is your choice. After all you don’t and will never go through what I’m going through.
Again. Palestine is not for Palestinians living inside it. Hamas does not represent but part of Palestinians.
Shaden,
What a Shallow question. What does casinos and alcohol have to do with occupation? FYI, they where there even before the occupation. Remember something called Palestinian Christians and Jews living in Palestine? And before occupation? Hello!!!
PS. There are millions who have a problem with Islam, in Palestine and outside Palestine. Not only “someone”!
April 7th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
I’m not denying you to have a voice, just not in actual affairs which govern other people’s lives in a country you don’t live.
I’m not denying you the right to return, but if you have a home to return to, what are the millions of others coming back to? An Israeli town? Suffice to say given the amount of what’s been stolen not everyone is getting their property back.
I look at them as my best Islamic example?
When did I say that? Are you just making stuff up now?
Any government within Palestine is a reflection of the voice which is inside Palestine and governing those who are inside Palestine.
Tell me, if you still have the keys to your house and the overwhelming majority of Palestinians outside do not, should everyone outside be given a right to vote for a governing force to govern over a land and a people that they are disconnected from.
I am not saying you don’t have the right to return, I am saying there are certain tragic realities to wake up to. This right will never happen. Palestinians are throwing themselves in front of their homes to avoid getting them demolished today, right now, in the present.
April 7th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Mind you, I’m a shallow person lol
When I said “people” I certainly meant the three religions, being Christian or Jewish does not translate to a need for getting drunk while surrounded by whores or does it? is it a religious practice? enlighten me. Also, as all of us know, Msulims go to such places too, so no need to make this an anti-nonMuslim thing.
I think Palestinians need the World to discuss more important issues than banning belly dancing and pornography, but maybe you disagree with me. While you’re tossing and turning over this, I think this should be the last of Palestinians’ concerns. Not that they are ungrateful or anything, its just that they have divorce rate, honor killing, starvation, corruption, occupation…you name it.
April 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
Nas,
The answer is, yes. Otherwise, who cares to fight for their rights? For those who have keys and who don’t?
Tell me, what does that the Palestinians who lost their keys should do? Stay in camps? Until when? Given a half citizenship of the country they are living in? What alternative do they have but to fight and fight for their return? And if this is their right, then why can’t and shouldn’t they have the right to vote for who represent them?
If your half-Palestinian accepted not to return, and gave up, that does not mean all should.
If you fight your fight for the Palestinians inside, that is your choice. I have two fights, the inside ones (my family) as well the exiled ones (they other part of my family). If you are fighting for them because they are Arab and Muslims under occupation, that is noble cause. However, I fight as a Palestinian who was denied the right to return home. If the Palestinian inside chosen to have Hamas to represent them, that is their problem, but I don’t have to take it as it is because I was not asked if I want them or not.
BTW, do you have MSN or Yahoo IM? I need to talk to you about something else important, off blog. If you do, add me to your list and let’s talk.
April 7th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
Shaden,
And you are telling me this? Go and say that to Hamasistan ministers.
April 7th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
To allow an ex-patriot to vote is not that out of the ordinary. It happens all the time. America, Canada, Iraq, and many other nations all allow their citizens living abroad to vote for their party of choice. It is their right and to deny them that right is like denying them their citizenship.
It doesn’t matter whether they left their country out of choice or necessity. The Palestinian government has to allow their citizens abroad to vote as it will enhance their democratic system.
If an ex-citizen cares enough to vote, then most certainly they will vote for the person who they think will do the best job. Even if they won’t directly benefit by casting their ballot, they will still benefit by seeing their fellow countrymen benefit. And if they don’t care about politics, then they won’t vote. But they should still have the right to vote.
April 7th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
The answer is no. What are they returning to? This is the point I’m getting at. Most of the land is now Israel proper…the rest is occupied west bank and gaza…emphasis on occupied.
Palestinians living under that occupation have to deal with it and have to decide what is best for them.
HOWEVER, if there was an actual state of Palestine where Palestinians, where ever they may be, are free to travel to their country, then yes they should now have the right to vote. But not like this brother, not in this situation when there is no prospect to return. You are literally putting the power into the hands of a majority that has not smelt the air of Palestine for 60 years, and allowing them to literally choose for palestinians inside the occupation who will run their lives and who will give them bread.
Let us put this in another way. Why haven’t Palestinians living under the occupation demanded their brethern be allowed to vote from outside?
Haitham as a Jordanian I have never seen the difference between Palestinians and Jordanians as a people. My grandfather gave many dunums of land to refugees to live on until this day and my father saw them cross the valley. I fight for the cause as an Arab and as a Muslim, we have forgotten that this is what everyone was fighting as in 1948. I respect your two battles but you have to realise that the latter is at the risk of the former and the former is the fight we should be focusing on.
sure
April 7th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
***USA itself is an incoherent nation..so no amount of points will uphold it.The same goes to the “prestigious” Duke .***
Do you have anything to offer besides a collection of insults?
April 8th, 2006 at 12:42 am
Ah, the old “you cant have an opinion unless you live in their shoes” arugment? Nonsense idea. I didnt say I wasnt Palestinian. Under your rules, however, YOU dont have a right to comment on American politics, Saudi politics, or any other race/religion/situation you have never been a part of.
Dont you see how silly that is now? Take a look at your own blog and see how many articles you have written about peoples/places/situations/religions you are not a part of. When you stop commenting on these subjects I will be more than happy to stop commenting on subjects that I have never been a part of.
But, of course, that completely spells the end of freedom of speech, but hey, your rules. By the way, does that mean if you are not a practicing Muslim that you have no right to comment on Islamic religious issues?
On the religious issue, you completely missed my point. You claimed that a way of life is different than religion, I pointed out that Islamicly, this is incorrect. Life and religion are the same thing. The go hand in hand. I wasnt talking about enforcing anything on anyone, but hey, unless you walk a mile in my shoes, please dont lecture.
Back to representation in Palestine, I seemed to have missed your anger about this issue before Hamas won. I think this issue with you has more to do with the Hamas win than with the real issue of voting rights. There were elections before the Hamas win and I didnt see any outrage about you not being able to vote. That just coincided with the Hamas win.
Get used to it, Hamas should have a chance to make a difference. All of the other secular corrupt elitest riff raff have had a chance, instead of jumping on the anti-Hamas bandwagon being run by the Israelis, Zionists, neo-cons and Islamophobes, why not give them a chance? After all, as you are reminding us, you are Palestinian too right?
This is why the Arab would in general, and Palestine in particular, is in the mess it is. You guys are always too busy stabbing each other in the back to notice the other peopke’s stealing your land, natural resources, governments ect.
It is a done deal Haitham. There is nothing you can do about it. So why not join behind the Palestinians that voted for Hamas and show a bit of unity. Otherwise the pityfull history of the Arabs and Palestinians continue, too busy stabbing each other in the back to see the children starving, the continuing assassinations and land grabs.
Sit and gripe about what the majorty of Palestinians in Palestine voted for and see what a worse state Palestine is in 6 months for now.
Hamas and their lot supported, to a certain extent, Arafat and his lot for years. Why dont you secularists afford them the same courtesy?
April 8th, 2006 at 1:02 am
Abu Sinan,
“Drink, gamble, go to the whorehouse, I dont care less. I believe in the freedom to choose. But if I choose not to do so it doesnt make me an extremist.”
That was not what I understood you to be saying initially, but with that clarified, it seems that we are actually saying pretty much the same thing.
“I have spent a lot of time in Denmark, I am glad I didnt run into people as rude as you. But I guess having blond hair and blue eyes helps me. I bet my treatment wouldnt have been as good if I had dark skin and hair eh?”
I have read this a few times now, because after my first read through I did not believe what I had just read. After chewing on it for a while, I realized that you are a complete asshole.
If we have an argument where I do not agree with you then I am rude? Since I, according to your opinion, am rude then I should not consider myself Danish? And on top of that you call me a racist? Or are you saying that all Danes are racists, but they just missed out on an opportunity to be rude to you because they did not know you are a Muslim?
Get a life!
I am not going to waste my time on a self-righteous nutcase like you. I am going to bed, because I have to get up early to join a group of friends for a two-day wine tasting trip. I may tell my Turkish friend about you. While we share a bottle of good Hungarian wine we will probably have a good laugh over you.
And yes, she is a Muslim and she does drink alcohol. However, I have a lot of respect for her, because she is a very open and friendly person who is using the Koran for spiritual guidance. To me she is a true Muslim and bigots like you will never be able to measure up to her; not as a spiritual person, not as a Muslim, and not as a friend.
April 8th, 2006 at 2:04 am
The more I read, the more confused I get.
Why is there so much hatred between people who agree that the Palestinians are being occupied.
Divide and conquer seems to be the answer.
I don’t like this and you do so I don’t like you. How childish.
I’m right, you’re wrong!
Can’t we talk about the situation at hand. “The Palestinians are getting screwed”.
Governments, militaries and religions are the problems.
Individuals or groups want power without thinking about the people.
We have lost the art of discussion. How sad.
April 8th, 2006 at 2:41 am
I have no idea what Duke has to do with this Jared, I too am a Duke student and have never come across any racist behaviour directed at me or anyone else. This, despite the fact that I’m Arab and that some might say that Arabs face continuous discrimination in America due to the 9/11 attacks. Duke is a wonderful place but not without its problems. The Lacrosse players represent a fringe of the Duke community as they recreuited athletes rather than normal undergraduates.
April 8th, 2006 at 3:37 am
haitham -
i really cant see how you are as palestian as the palestians living inside palestine.I am palestian ,but i live a decent life. You dont go throught anything that the palestians go throught ,how many times were you tortured ?how many years did you spend in jail?how many family members did you lose?
thats why they get to vote and you dont.
April 8th, 2006 at 6:09 am
Thomas, you say you are going to sit down and have a drink with a “Muslim” friend of yours(yeah, we all have friends of the ‘other’ when we are accused of bigotry) and talk about me?
You are going to sit down and drink with someone and talk about me? A person on-line? LOL! You tell me to get a life? LOL!
April 8th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
***Thomas, you say you are going to sit down and have a drink with a “Muslim” friend of yours(yeah, we all have friends of the ‘other’ when we are accused of bigotry) and talk about me?***
Abu, how about the bigoted remarks of Jared on this very same thread?
Or is it only bigotry when one is expressing an opinion contrary to a conservative interpretation of the Muslim faith?
***You are going to sit down and drink with someone and talk about me? A person on-line? LOL! You tell me to get a life? LOL!***
Come on, Abu, you’re a celebrity in some circles. Live it. Love it. Everyone talks about blogs and bloggers nowadays. And believe me, most of us have lives. (I think).
April 9th, 2006 at 6:59 am
[...] 172. Bellydancing out, [...]
April 10th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Abu Sinan,
You said: “Thomas, you say you are going to sit down and have a drink with a “Muslim” friend of yours(yeah, we all have friends of the ‘other’ when we are accused of bigotry) and talk about me?”
You got that completely wrong, because I have absolutely NO friends of ‘the other’. My Turkish friend is NOT a Muslim who happens to be my friend, she is MY FRIEND who happens to be Muslim.
Religious nutcases and bigots are ‘the other’ and as long as you remain intolerant of people who do not want to be part of your book club then you will never be able to become my friend, because there is no common ground to build a friendship on!
If it is intollerant of me to be so arrogant that I criticize bigots like you and that I refuse to accept you as my equal (based on the primitive views you are holding, not your race or religion), then I will carry the label with pride.
Btw, we were enjoying good red wine and laughing a lot all weekend, but you did not really fit into the conversation so you can rest assured that you are still primarily an online joke
April 10th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
[...] has certainly touched the hearts of all those who had heard about it. Away from Bahrain, Palestine’s new Hamas Government antics take a thrashing from Haitham [...]
April 11th, 2006 at 10:47 am
I can not believe the animosity some people have shown on this post, it seems that even talking about Palestine causes conflict.
I am of Palestinian decent, and although I live a comfortable life in Canada, I am always aware of what is going on there as I still have family in the region.
I was very upset when I heard that Hamas had been elected, not because I hate Islam but because I despise extremism, When I was a child I remember going to Jeneen, Nabless, Bethlehem and seeing people of all backgrounds shopping in the markets, Muslims went to Mousks, Christians to church you could hear the Call for prayer with the sound of Church bells in the background, if you wanted to go to a restaurant and have some BQed lamb with a glass of Araq from Ramalah you had no problems finding one, it would probably be owned by a Muslim, unfortunately this has changed, and now Hamas wants to even change this more, they claim to be Muslims but their actions are against everything I understand about Islam, they send off young men and now women on suicide missions to kill other innocent children even though both acts are against the instructions of the prophet, they want to impose Islamic law on a nation that is made up of Palestinian Christians as well as Muslims and Druze, They show total disregard for human life and sadly will only bring more misery to Palestinians, as they do not even have the vision to see that the only way to achieve peace for our people is through acceptance and mutual respect, not through a continued cycle of hatred and revenge.
Hamas must recognize Israel’s right to exist and work on educating the children that only through tolerance does a society achieve greatness.
Sadly I do not believe that the current Hamas leadership has neither the vision nor the intelligence to accomplish these things, as I only see Religious bigots who are bent on gaining power to control others and to take us back to 1400th century.
One last thing to all you who continue to talk about Muslims as if all Muslims were equal and truthful to the teachings. Just because you say you are a Muslim does not make you one just as claiming to be Christian does not make you one either. It is your actions not the appearance and the loudness of your voice that determines your true faith.
Peace
April 11th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
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April 12th, 2006 at 3:01 am
Why the intense hate for Hamas?
They won’t do anything stupid
Don’t worry
This is all talk.
and besides they would not risk doing that.They know the palestinian society.and one mistake would be fatal for them.
Atleast i know when i am giving money to them.They won’t waste it on drinking alchol in Tunis like some of our ma3aref of the corrupt Fatah are doing.
Taliban.again sorry they are far far better and superior.
While its true they have an islamic view when approcahing things their base in nationalistic after all.They care about palestinians the most.You don’t find them bragging about Iraqis or Afganis.They are deeply concerned with their problems.They have a christian among them.If supposedley they do anythng wrong.He would ne the first to attch them.
I wish them all the best.It is an islamic party yes.
But palestinian muslims are different from the taliban.They are better educated.They have fear from Allah.Be5afo rabna.
Can Islamic parties in Palestine be differend from what is around the Islamic/arab world.I sure hope so..
Hamas has a long history for fighting and social services for more than 15 years.
School.Hospitals…and you call them Taliban.Disappointing.
Let me take it from a sentimental poist of view.Can you deny their love for Palestine and wish to make palestinian life better.
I find it very very disappointing for you to compare it to Taliban.
Hamas members are palestinian after all and not outsiders.
They are not perfect.but this is not the time to bash them.
They are inexperienced.they asked help from all the palestinian factions.and they refused under American pressure.They asked the world to give them the chance.To help them with money and yet everyone is refusing to give a hand even the U.N.
Can it get any worse?
April 12th, 2006 at 3:31 am
and yes one point.
We as palestinians who live outside the land.
yeah i agree we have a the right to have a say.but my mother said the palestinians living in Palestine are very very different from those who have lived in jordan,Gulf states,Chile.you name it. and she right.Many palestinias fee al mehjar who visted the lands and noticed the difference especilly in the psycology of people.
I do believe when palestinian elected Hamas.They made a conciuos deciosn and is well though.They have outseted the corrupt goverment of Fatah and put another goverment that is testified for its social services and fighting.
Like the jordanian poster said having a say here(out) is not like having a say (in)there.Its just not the same.
Like i mentioned it was a conisious decison.
And while i know some of far realtives who died as martyers.I a not living there.I would be 10000 more enraged if i was living there or more affected…
I am not sure if i was currently living there.I would choose hamas or not.Its a possibility.i never know because i sadly never had the chance to live there.I am saying things there are different.
I wish them the best for our sake.and if they messed.The palestinians will outset them like they did with Fatah.
Thats the essence of democray after all.
I am glad it is practically working her.Election Abbas and election of Hamas and after three more years we will have another president.Thats the bright side.
April 12th, 2006 at 7:40 am
This is a joke “Hamas is a good party” It would be better if they spent money on Alcohol in Yemen than entice kids to strap on bombs and blow themselves to peaces, this is not martyrdom, this is pure savagery, and by doing this they are no better than the occupiers they claim to be fighting, Hamas’s agenda is to establish an Islamic Palestine, where Christians and secular Muslims will have no voice.
Education and understanding is what is going to bring peace not more violence.
April 12th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
yasse,
You wrote:
“Why the intense hate for Hamas?
They won’t do anything stupid
Don’t worry
This is all talk.”
It is so very simple that even Hamas should be able to understand it!
Palestinian extremists (Hamas) refuse to accept the exact same UN resolutions that the US administration is continuously helping Israeli extremists refuse to accept. The only difference is that Hamas does not have a hypocritter like the Bush to support them. This does not justify that Hamas should have a world bully to support them as well, but that it is unfair (to put it mildly) that the Bush supports the Israeli extremists. What Hamas is doing is stupid, because they are alienating international support of Palestine and sabotage every attempt to stop the Bush’s support of the Israeli extremists.
Hamas is extremistic, because what they are doing is extremely stupid and definitely not in the best interest of Palestinians. I know that Hamas is doing a lot for Palestinians in the form of social support etc., but as long as Hamas refuses to recognize the state of Israel then they are destroying any hope Palestinans can have for finally getting their own state as they deserve.
The EU, among others, have recently cut funding to Hamas, not because the EU is against a Palestinian state, not because the EU is against Palestinians, but because the EU does not want to support an organization that talks about throwing Israel into the sea - which is completely counter-productive in settling the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I am against the EU policy of appeasing Israel, but that does not mean that I am against the EU policy of not supporting Hamas with funding. Extremists on both sides must recognize the UN resolutions, so I am against support of both groups working against the UN resolutions.
That the EU is passively accepting Israeli extremism does not justify that we should actively support Palestinian extremism as well. I am writing to EU parliamentarians that they should stop their support of extemists in Israel, but I cannot justify that they should support extremists in Palestine instead.
I appreciate that the EU is the largest financial supporter of the Palestinian people and therefore I am happy that EU politicians had enough sense to continue to be the largest financial supporter of Palestinians (the 25% of the money that previously was donated to Fatah for administatrion etc. has been cut, but the 75% that has been donated directly to social institutions and infrastructure projects will continue to be donated to non-Hamas organizations).
I know the 25% cut is going to hurt a lot of ‘bureaucrats’ in Palestine - even those who do not support Hamas - and I am sad about that. But I, and the EU politicians, do not see any other options. I just hope that Palestinians are smart enough to understand that they have lost financial support of an extrimist organization because it is an extremist organization and not because the EU no longer supports Palestine.
To get back to your initial statement that Hamas won’t do anything stupid. Well, they are doing something stupid, I just hope they will do something smart and recognize Israel’s right to exist, because it is a lot easier for me and other supporters of Palestine to criticize that the government of Israel does not recognize the UN resolutions without being accused of supporting Palestinian extremists who do not recognize the UN resolutions either.
April 12th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Hi
Thanks for the reply
Noe on topic
Lets jump again on the bandwogen of Hamas refusing to admit the existance of Israel
Hamas has said more than once in many interviews.
Once Israel admit to the existance of a palestinian state.
We will have another say.
You see we are the weaker part here not Israelies.
Isreal is a state(whether we like it or not or Hamas like it or not).C’mon why do palestinian always have to make concessions.
Even before Hamas took power.Israel did not coopertae with Abbas.
and now they hold him in higher regard !!!! just after Hamas elections.Does not this tell you something?
I mean this is one of the reasons Hamas took power in the first place.The palestinian authority is weak,ineffective and needs a radical hardliner change.There need to be people to be clear and save the palestinians dignity from continuing condemnations and concessions.and Hamas (till now) is repeating .Accept a palestinian state and then we will have another say.
Why are the palestinians are demanded always to accept Isreal.I mean Gosh.Americans and Europeans condemn them like they are a Superpower or something.Like i previously mentioned we are the weak here.Its not like we have a choice to accept Israel existance and palestinians accept the bitter truth.
And by the way Hamas before may not nessarily be the one now.
After all.Hamas members are palestinians.and they will not be able to forse “islamic” rules on everyone cause that will give Fatah and its other million haters and cospirators a reason to
bash Hamas and outset it.I mean Hamas is in a critical condition already.forcing these rules will only make the situation more worse than it is now.Besides they have Hussam al Tawil.A christian candiatate who mentioned several times that Hamas will not be able to forse anything on anyone since they know the palestinian society is diverse.And I am sure that if Hamas did anything stupid Al tawil will be the first to attack them or condem them.and palestinian people will not forgive them since.We are very tough with eachother and critical.Not to mention America,Europe and Isreal combined criticism and attacks if they did that.
I am not jumping to conclusions but Obviously people do not respect the choice the palestians in land made and worse they are not giving Hamas an oppurtinity and time before judging and stopping the help and money.
I say wait and see.
I am very dissappointed at palestinian factions inland mostly.
You see Hamas is politically inexperienced.Hamas know this and because of this they asked for Palestinian factions to have a role in forming the goverment.They are supposed to help/Hamas asked them after all.They asked for unity and help yet they rejected under American pressure.Sad.. very sad.
you know one of the corrupted Fatah member in Tunis take more than 800 dollar and he does absolutely NOTHING but drink alchol is some bar.I mean NOTHING.Wow..Is that the kinda “goverment” you are gonna support.and there are worse examples.
Hamas is not like them.Fatah deserve what happend to them in the elections.They lost the hearts and the confidence and they need to work on that.What happened with Fatah in the elections was
JUSTICE ON EARTH.Palestinians spoke against corruption and i felt back then that Allah might forgive/help us because we made a wise decion by outsetting them.I say we becuae if i was living there
i would definiteley Not vote for them (Fatah).
again i am not saying Hamas in perfect.Its new and they have zero
experince in politics but i believe i have to give them more time.
and i wish them success for the sake of palestinians.No other reason.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
yasse,
I don’t have time for a thorough reply at the moment, but I will ask you to chew on a couple of aspects.
Yes, Palestinians are the weak side, there is no denying that, but that does not give them a license to be counter-productive.
Palestine IS recognized as a country by the EU, USA, even by Israel! What is not recognized by the USA and Israel is where the border is supposed to be. If Hamas does not want to recognize the borders either, then it creates two main problems; a) the Hamas is ‘just as bad’ as the Israeli extremists, and b) it gives Iraeli extremists a good excuse for trying to renegotiate something that should not be up for negotiation (the borders).
Regardless of what anybody think, the reality we have to work with is what is laid down in the UN resolutions calling on Israel to pull back behind the pre-1967 borders and recognize Palestinians right to return. Fair or not fair, this is the ‘will’ of the international community (the UN), so every distraction regardless whether it is extremists on the either side of the conflict or anybody else trying to create distractions will bring Palestinians a step further away from the goal of giving them a state.
April 13th, 2006 at 8:58 am
Thomas
As always I enjoy reading your posts, you seem to have a great understanding of the situation and posses common sence which unfortunetly is not common these days.
Although I do agree on many of the points you made, I do not see Israel ever pulling back to the pre 1967 boarders, that would mean that East Jerusalem will be a part of pelestine…this will not happen any time soon, as the Israely hard liners will not allow it.
Having said this, I just hope that Hamas party leaders will be smart enough to move towards peacfull means instead of the ineffective voilant ways. but this may only be wishfull thinking on my part.
April 13th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Mougly,
Thank you for your reply.
I am almost as pessimistic about Israel pulling back to the pre-1967 borders as you are, but only almost.
Imagine if Hamas came out and said that they would recognize Israel in the form described in UN resolution #181 that Israel has been defying for half a century.
Further, imagine if Hamas also said that though it cannot give any guarantees that nobody will commit suicide bombings or rocket attacks they will take all possible measures that there will be no such attacks for the next 12 months as a sign of good faith. Then Hamas would present a list with ‘demands’ (steps toward reaching the UN sanctioned solution including the UN sanctioned right of return) like removal of settlement blocks, return of the files with land claims (the ones Israel stole to prevent Palestinians to prove their UN sanctioned right of return), removal of the apartheid barrier completely or to the UN sanctioned pre-1947 borders, etc.
For every ’step’ Hamas would promise to extend the 12 month period it will take all possible measures with one or two months until Israel has fully complied with the UN resolutions it has defyed for half a century. Last part of the Hamas declaration would be to give a guarantee that it will permanently take all possible measures from the day that Israel fully complies with the UN resolutions.
Currently it is an undisputed fact that extremists on both sides do not recognize the UN resolutions (which, realistically, is the best deal the Palestinians can hope for), because as long as Hamas does not recognize Israel, then they stand as the lunatics in the conflict and they make it easier for the Israelis to give good excuses for grabbing more land before a peace (that does not look like the UN resolutions) can be reached. But if Hamas recognizes Israel then they have shown the biggest possible sign of good faith without selling out the Palestinians. With that ‘good publicity’ they can explicitly tie every other sign of good faith to Israels compliance with the UN resolutions, because the name of the game is to show everybody that it is the Israeli extremists who are the assholes and not anybody on the Palestinian side.
With a little bit of luck this would work. The Israeli extremists have been too good at diverting the issue from the fact that there is a UN sanctioned solution and the Palestinian extrmists have been too good at helping it!
By the way have you seen this (http://www.nimn.org/) it is a Jewish organization in Illinois, USA and they offer the best and most objective view on the history of the conflict that I have ever seen anywhere (”The Geneva Bubble” by Ilan Pappe: http://www.nimn.org/Resources/geneva/000136.php?section=Geneva%20Initiative )
April 14th, 2006 at 5:08 am
Thomas
That is a very interesting site, although it did not give me much hope.
I do agree with you that if Hamas stood up and acted in a smart intelligent way, it would in a way force the Israeli’s to negotiate. In addition, possibly agree on a deal.
Although I do not believe that Israel will ever give back East Jerusalem or allow the exiled Palestinians to return.
I am not as hopeful as you are, and in fact, I do not think that I will see real peace there in my life time…but I would be glad to be proven wrong.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
I really hope that things can move forward for once
Thanks for the replies
April 22nd, 2006 at 8:12 am
Banning any kind of dancing by Hammaz is not logical simply because Hammaz was formed to liberate Palastine from Isreali occupation. So what ever happend to that? By the way, when HAmmaz leadership holds demostration, I see people dancing, are they going to ban that too?
April 22nd, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Thomas,
Thank you for the link to the “Not in My Name” site in Illinois, US.
I do agree with Moughly regarding Hamas. Fateh had been in charge since Arafat was officially recognised as Palestine’s president in 1996, ten years before Hamas, and they recognised Israel, with no resulting benefits.
May 26th, 2006 at 9:23 am
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