Haitham,
One of the American revolutionaries and founding fathers of the United States said "Give me liberty, or give me death." This sentiment is taught all throughout the American school systems when teaching about the American Revolution. It was a famous theme of the American Revolution, and bears striking similarity to the observed sentiment of many in Palestine who are willing to die, rather than live under Israeli occupation.
Yet, US revolutionary times, there was a declaration of wrongs done to the colonies under the British empire, which are stated in the Declaration of Independence. There was governmental action, political action, before military action. The US colonies were under many of the same restrictions that the Palestinians are under in Palestine. In declaring independence from British rule, the colonies declared war on (arguably) the most powerful military force of the time. They were the underdogs, but they had the will to push through and succeed.
Patrick Henry's speech is worth reading. It can be found here. http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html
Barrett
And I could not but share this email (thanks, Barrett) with you. Yes, Patrick Henry's speech is worth reading. In fact, it is inspiring truth and eye-opener, the untold daily life story of Palestinians. After 231 years of this speech, across oceans, another occupation is still dominant. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! History still repeating itself, and ...
Just for the records, I'm pasting Patrick Henry's speech here:
Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
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I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Contextually Related posts:
These are great words but Bush seems to think they apply to Americans and only to those politically correct Americans. Here is a man who treads heavily on the rights of his own citizens and then asks the world to take action against those who disagree with him. One day we will realize what has happened and then ask ourselves why we didn’t do anything. We should judge each other on deeds rather than words
Good post Haitham.
Mohan, what the heck are you talking about? The comment section is to comment on the post, not give a lecture on unrelated issues.
History repeats itself. This was a very moving experience of history repeating itself.
Palestein is right in its fighting the Zionists. The speach supported it. Bush should take notice!
But he won’t!
With the greatest possible respect Haitham, when you write that that the Henry speech reflects “the untold daily life story of Palestinians”, you seem to forget that the English and the American rebels (who were mostly of English families anyway at this time) were colonisers and oppressors both. There is no mention anywhere in this speech of the native, indigenous populations of North America (US and Canada). Perhaps it is their story … lands eventually conquered through a massive display of military strength, forced to live on so called “reservation” sites etc whose story more closely corresponds with the Palestinian situation of this time? (though hopefully not the future)
Well said paul! Imagine in europe, would they allow people from other nations. Take the very example of western europe, they would never accept any foreignor. How come they are interested in the wealth of other nations, why is that they want to do business with other nations.
Liberty is a fictious term, coined by hypocrates just to rally support. In reality, europeans live like animals in a cage dictated by their own leaders and they will nod like goats the way they dictate.
The only reason people had to resolve to violent methods in the history, is they are not willing to listen, if said peacefully, they consider them weak.
The on going crisis in iraq, afghanisthan and numerous other invasions planned by the western powers can be thwarted by demanding all the nations to boycott their memberships in United Nations, call back all their envoys and create another Council of Nations on the principles of equality, and not identifying a nation as an entity. No veto powers. Then only we could see liberty in true sense.
Ask any individual, whether he is aware of United Nations and its powers. Ask any one whether they have been involved in the process of framing a consitution that the so called ” INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE”. Whether there was a global referendum on acceptance of the constitution of the international court of justice.
The foundations of these organizations are so weak that any body could challenge it and mend it based on our needs. Thats what america and the bullies are trying to do.
Europe hasnt learnt lessons yet, seems like another saladin should be born to teach them well, there are a few who have taken such path.
Europe should be controlled, and should be told to behave properly.
asadel,
Exactly what is your problem with Europe?
If you are specific about something the European Union, any European country, or a specific European individual is doing wrong, then let’s discuss it, but if you are only criticizing Europeans for being Europeans then you are showing that you have your head up your ass – and that cannot be discussed.
There is criticism and then there is intollerant blah blah. Your post seems to belong in the last category.
Being a Canadian I know more about the US shortcommings.
They know everything about their own history, but nothing about everything or everyone else.
When I was young working in a gas station I had Americans coming up to me, with skiis on their cars in the summers asking where they can go for skiing. My daughter had the same problem. Go north.
If they don’t know about Canada, how could they know about Palestein?
Most Americans are ignorant about the rest of the world.
The only way they can learn is from the news. Such as FOX News. Very biased. Or CNN. Just as biased.
In the history of the world, as it has been recorded and handed down to us, many individuals have exemplified to us in their words the justice that should be shaping our deeds. In Patrick Henry’s speech, he states simply, “I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience”. If anyone reading here has every experienced professional “therapy”, then hopefully, they have been taught that in order to participate in a productive conversation, the speaker should be speaking mostly in “I” terms and avoid hurling criticism at the other party. When Patrick Henry spoke these simply words, he was projecting to others that HE was speaking from his own point of view. Even as he continued with his speech he avoided generalizations and spoke directly to the facts. He went on to say to the British, “you are amassing armies against us…for whom are these armies to fight?” His points were so very straight forward, assertive (not distructive) and were based in fact. Others have also spoken words throughout history which although specific to the audience, ring true for milenium. “Let you without sin cast the first stone”. How simple can you get, yet how true. Should this be said to you in a conversation should the first response, “Yeah but you did this first, yada yada”. NONE of us are without fault, NONE of us as individuals have acted altruistically at all times and certainly no nation is without fault. What to do? I can only conjur up the simple words spoken at every mass I attend, “God grant us your peace”.
On another note, another (note American because this is what I am most familiar with) great document states, “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal”. Although a secular document, this statement does not only hold true for the founding fathers, this statement is straight out of religious philosophy and SHOULD hold true for all mankind. Things start getting messy though when the exceptions are thrown in. From my own personal belief (which is MY lamp) every day a child is born, that child is born equal to other children. Yet another short quote, “let not the children suffer”. There’s no one else on this earth folks to do the things we need to do except us. WE are the ones who must assert our own inalienable rights, and WE are the ones who must make sure that as individuals, we do not impinge on the rights of our fellow man.
Haitham, good point drawing the parallel of the Palestinians plight and the “give me liberty or give me death” speech. NO God that I ever want to know would give one people power and superiority over another with the intent to abuse and disabuse them of their humanity.
(PS: Hi Thomas and Kimmy! missed you guys. Just got back yesterday from Texas. Six weeks!! No computer. Thank goodness for modern technology!!!!)
Hi Robin,
Great that you are back again :)
I hope you managed to comfort your father and that you both made the best out the time you could spend with him. I am not too good at words when somebody is terminally ill, so consider this a big virtual hug instead of some cheesy line about nothing :(
I have not been around much lately either as I have been busy working, trying to get a job that inspires me more than the one I have, and I have been having a fierce discussion about ethnocentric nationalism with a couple of guys on a Zionist website.
After having repeatedly been called white supremacist, racist etc. as a standard response to most of my argumentation I have realized that all ideologic extremists are pretty much the same; full of hot air, restlessly repeating propaganda slogans (hypocricy-out-of-the-can), and complete lacking argumentation!
The good thing about ‘Sabbah’s Kitchen’ is the diversity of people represented here and I look forward to new exchanges of points of view and argumentation with you – and everybody else, of course :)
Hi Thomas,
Thanks SO much for the “virtual hug”. No “cheesy” appreciation, just warm thoughts. Arguing with Zionists huh? GOOD LUCK! In my own experiences I could literally feel my blood boiling It’s great to be back! “Haitham’s kitchen” is a special place to be.
I’ve been thinking about the nature of this link. It was given I think to draw a parallel between the driving force behind the American revolutionaries and the Palestinian aspirations to regain their homeland. It is certainly one of the most famous speeches ever made, and passes the test of time. The words are somewhat universal (despite what post #8 postulates which is that the speaker was a forerunner for attrocities against native Americans, which I admit is true, but I don’t think is the crux of the discussion).
I come back to the simple statement, “Give me liberty or give me death”. It is the most often quoted statement of the speech, but if you remove it from the context of the speech, what does it mean? Does it depend on the situation in which it is being used?
Does it mean what it says literally? It is often quoted rhetorically, but what if you DO take it literally? What then is the outcome? How is the literal translator supposed to achieve death if there is no liberty?
I then move to considering the statement vis a vis the Palestinian crisis. (for anyone reading here please understand I am trying my very best to understand, but my “lamp” is not Palestinian). If a Palestinian living under the occupation does not have liberty (freedom of movement, the necessites of everyday living, and reasonable comfort etc.), then is the only other choice death? Can it be possible to be physically alive yet dead in one’s aspirations? Can one be so downtrodden physically in their surroundings yet choose life over death? How can a Palestinian living in relative comfort abroad, away from the occupation live with hope while their people suffer every day? Why does one person choose death (suicide bombing) while another chooses to either eke out an everyday living or sometimes a very productive life living abroad? How has the world stood by while a proud people, the Palestinians, pay for the atrocities of the holocost? (no I don’t buy this arguement because of course the Zionist movement existed long before Hitler).
In my own mind, I am trying to figure this out. My simplest answer is that there is no “one” Palestinian generalization. Therefor, there cannot be any “one” explanation by the Zionists to justify their course of action. My God, we are talking about MILLIONS of individuals. Each one with their own degree of success or desperation. Yet there is only ONE Palestine. Let those powers responsible for this tragedy (Israel and the US) choose liberty for our brothers and sisters, the Palestinians. I pray for all parties to choose life both for themselves and others. Peace.
Good evening Robin,
It is close to my bed time, but I am in a little bit of a philosophical mood now.
“Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death” sounds a bit submissive to me as I read it as the person actually accepting that somebody has ‘taken’ his liberty and now asks to be killed if that somebody does not want to give it back.
I think liberty is something everybody has and that it can only be taken away if one accepts that it can be taken away. Personally, I would never accept anybody to take my liberty away. Somebody may infringe on my liberty or refuse to respect it, but as long as I am fighting for it it has not been taken away.
If I had been melodramatic I would probably have said: “I will take my liberty with me into my grave!”, if I had been flamboyant I would have said: “You will only be able to step on my liberty when you dance on my grave!”, or if I had been valiant: “You can kill me, but not my liberty!”
Sweet dreams :)
Hey Thomas (and everyone else)
I get philosophical too. (Although the Wawa thread is quite a humerous diversion of levity)
From a western view, I think everyone has liberty too. But my “lamp” is not Palestinian. I was pondering on this subject and it hit me. The Nakba was in 1948 (someone please correct me if my understanding of the word “Nakba” refers to a specific point in time, or an ongoing condition, which I THINK is what it means). Simple math tells me that even those born in 1948 are now 58 years old and to be old enough to actually remember the actual event (if it was an event, someone help me with this please). So say only those around 80 years old can remember the “pre-Nakba” days. Soon, all of these people will be lost.
That leaves us with only Palestinians who were “born” into the Nakba. I can try as I might to understand, but I am not walking in their shoes. One day this is Palestine, the next it is Israel, a Jewish state. All the world cheers (speaking from the West, but not my own modern semi-educated to the facts point of view). Their “liberty as a nation” was stolen. They were refugees and not allowed to return to their homeland. Fast forward. What little is left, Gaza and the West Bank, stolen in 1967. The Palestinians have no “physical” or “national” liberty.
Citizenship? Depends on an individual basis. Millions living in camps. Their water? appropriated by Israel. Their freedom of movement? Controlled by Israel. More details, suffice it to say a horrendous condition for most Palestinians. And even if individual Palestinians are able to emigrate and find new homes, they ALL have ties to those less fortunate. So in all honesty, I think that “liberty” can have different meanings. In the case of the Palestinians, I cannot even come close to fathoming what freedom means, and even then, you will get dozens and dozens of different answers.
There are two very different movies I have seen about the Palestinians. The first is “Ford Transport”. It’s about a Palestinian taxi driver making his way through the day, the checkpoints, and yet he tries very hard to keep his optomism. The second is “Paradise Now”. The protagonist resorts to becoming a suicide bomber. His father had been a collaberator and he was shamed by this. He got somewhat trapped into being a suicide bomber. I cannot understand. My “lamp” is not Palestinian. I can try to learn. I can keep my own values. I can condemn killing by both sides. I can feel sadness in the depth of my heart for all.
I don’t know, my “philisophical” self tries to get a handle, but maybe “Give me liberty or give me death” is in the end up to the individual to determine. Desperation leads to “irrational thought”. Or maybe, just maybe, liberty for others becomes as important to each individual as it is to themselves.
Me again.
I found this article http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/30B94811-F302-4424-8D62-9F81BD7CAC04.htm about the celebration of the day of “Nakba”. I realize there is a thread covering this subject but it sort of fits in with what we are talking about, “liberty”.
If anyone could help me out with my understanding of “Nakba” (the English translation of the word) I would appreciate it. I have only recently heard this actual word and really want to understand. Thanks.
Robin
My father does not like Jews. He married one.
He is but very understanding about their views. He is 88 years old now. He has gone through the war in the resistance in Denmark.
He has taught me that there are always two sides to the story (sometimes three) and we have to listen to all of them.
He is now a Palestinian supporter just like I am.
We have heard all of the stories from both sides and we feel that the Zionists are treating the Palestinians just like the Jews were treated by the Nazis in Germany!
History repeats itself.
Hi Kimmy,
Got your message over on Wawa. Glad to be back. I missed the banter (and the access to information) alot. Thanks!
You’re right. We have both been exposed to listening to both sides of the story. Your dad was absolutely correct. There are always at least two sides to every story, sometimes three, and I might even say more especially when you throw the pundits in. Neither one of us has an actual personal stake, but we both have ties which makes for an interesting twist.
Here in the States, as you well know from being a close neighbor and fellow North American by transplant, our general access to information is definitely slanted in one direction in this matter. Heck, the insidious nature is that MOST North Americans aren’t even aware of this. But what is worse, is that when many begin to hear the “other side of the story”, they refuse to listen. It is so ingrained in our “Judeo Christian” ideology that the “Jews” have a god-given place in history and a right to the land of Israel, that most do not question this. I grew up with this in my own home. On my trip back, the subject of Iran and our saber-rattling came up. Both my parents informed me that “those Israelis” just better do what they need to do (with their superior might and wit) to take care of the matter. I was fresh off my blogging here when the conversation came up. My blood literally went through the roof of my mouth and into my head into an attempt to spurt out the top. These were my parents, I had been married to an Arab, we had had so MANY conversations about the Mideast (my father and I much more so than my mom) and yet here they were making such a racist statement. You see Kimmy, this is what I loathe. No where in my own mindset do I wish to degrade the Jewish peoples. But conversely, no where in my mindset do I wish to raise them ABOVE other peoples to a status of superiority and privilage. It is NOT “Jewishness” which is wrong, it is Zionism (a political ideology) which DOES grant the Jewish peoples a status of superiority and privilage. I truly do believe that “all men are created equal”. Every day a child is born, and each of these infants has the “god-given” potential to become great. Not every infant born will go on to become rich or a leader, that wouldn’t make sense. But when a group of people believe, and others agree with them, that they are “superior” to others and have the right to assert that superiority to the detriment of others, this is WRONG!!!
I’ve been blogging here for a couple of months now. We are for the most part “kindred spirits” with much room for respectful disagreement. But when I did not have access to my comfort zone, I realized more than ever what the rest of our population is thinking. Kimmy, I don’t know if I have ever mentioned this to you but I wanted to let you know this, my oldest daughter (aged 28, half Arab) has many friends. Oddly enough, due to geography, they are almost ALL Jewish. For more than ten years these friends have been visiting with her on vacation in her father’s homes in Spain and Austria. There is absolutely NO reason why her father would not welcome them simply because they are Jewish. Certainly not every Jew is a Zionist, but on the other hand you can be a Non-Jew and be a more staunch Zionist than ever thought possible.
The link here is about liberty. Zionism denies the liberty of others by nature of their own birthright. As Thomas stated, no one can take your liberty from you. I would very much like to believe this is true, but in the real world of the Palestinian crisis, this is exactly what has been done. The “ideal” of liberty has been denied based upon a belief systm which elevates the status of one set of people over another. This superiority complex has played itself out in the real world in REAL actions. I abhor this and I do honestly believe that it has been an evil which has upset the balance of humanity in that place we call the “Cradle of Civilization”, the Middle East.
Hope I made some sense. VERY good to be back and see ya soon!!
Robin
I really don’t care who you daughter has friends with.
What I care about is that all people are treated equally.
If push comes down to crunch, I am a non-believer. I don’t believe in a God. I believe in a good will in our fellow man (woman).
What-ever your belief, stay with it. That is your stabillity and you have to live with it.
Sorry, but that is my belief.
I am now leaning for the Palestinians.
They are now the perscuted race.
Kimmy, I related my daughter’s friendships as an example of Arabs and Jews coming together on a personal level and crossing a bridge which seems impossible to cross in the Palestinian crisis. Everywhere in the Mideast, Jews hate Arabs, Arabs hate Jews since the Nakba. First off, I don’t know the exact numbers, but not all Palestinians are Moslems, many are Christians. But for the most part it is seen as an Arab/Moslem vs. Jewish problem. The Palestinian crisis IS the crux of ALL of the problems that are causing the most strife. Each individual Mideast country has their own set of internal problems (as does every country). But ask any Arab, Moslem or Christian, what they in their hearts feel is the single most pressing problem in the Mideast and they will tell you it is the Palestinian crisis. The fact that my own government uses the problem as an excuse to not address the dictators of the Mideast and the social inequities is largely based on the premise that the peoples of the Arab countries want to destroy Israel. If you solve the Palestinian crisis, then the other pressing issues will come to the forefront of the table. If the Zionists are still able to manipulate every issue vis a vis their own existance, it keeps the whole Mideast in turmoil. Also if I state “god given”, it is simply my own terminology. Maybe a better term would be “inherent”. But no matter which term you choose, the result is the same, all peoples must be treated equally and justly because we’re ALL people, no matter HOW we got here. When I use the word “god” I don’t really mean it to be separate being and all powerful. Rather I mean it to be the “conscience” (who cares where it came from, we should ALL have it as humans) which should guide us all to treat our fellow man with dignity. It’s probably a much more humanistic belief than it may appear on the surface because I use the word “god” and prayers alot. My mother always told me “God” is goodness. Simple. Goodness does not deny another’s liberty. Goodness requires each person to respect the other. HUMANS are responsible for actions, and HUMANS need to accept eachother as equals in the basic needs and rights to aspirations, no matter WHY they believe this should be so.
Also, I prefer to use the term “Zionist” when discussing the crisis as opposed to the term “Jew”. Jew is a birth and faith issue, Zionism is a choice. I bristle when the problem from an Arab perspective is blamed on the “Jews”. I want the Arab perspective to be based in “action” agaist them as opposed to “Jew” against them. I don’t like lumping any ethnic group into one monolithic enemy. Using this terminology is just as racist as the Zionists using their method to discredit Arabs. If we don’t stop talking in generalized racist terms on both sides nothing is ever going to have the chance to improve. This is another reason I gave my daughter’s friends as an example, Moslems and Jews, (a religious distinction, but what many blame for the problem) coming together in friendship. This is only possible when individuals shun racism and generalization and accept each other as equal humans coming to the relationship. Put in another way, how is it possible that Arabs and Jews (religious distinction) were able to get along so well prior to the Nakba. It’s because they are COUSINS! It’s a term the Arabs use because ethnically they are both Semitic peoples, descendants of Abraham. (I know you don’t like bringing up religion but you absolutely cannot leave it out of the discussion because it’s so VERY much a root of the problem and THEIR belief system). It might be a “Palestinian” problem, but the fact remains, it has spread to ALL of the peoples of the Mideast and that is precisely why I related my daughter’s experience. Her’s is not the only instance, it’s just an example of a possibility on an individual basis. Every single time that the different faiths involved in this turmoil can come together in friendship should be celebrated. Then, when all is said and done, at the end of the day, a solution to the crisis MUST be reached on the premise that peace much be reached, for the sake of all parties involved. Liberty must be a right for all.
Correction to above, goodness is all-powerful. This is not a religious link, but suffice it to say from my personal view that all humans should act with “goodness” towards other’s in their hearts and actions (can be secular, can be faith based) The outcome is what is most important. In this case, Kimmy, obviously the Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick, if they get any stick at all. Last time I checked it was mostly stones to throw. (And yes Kimmy, I get REALLY pissed off about the situation too, I just keep trying in my own way to deal with my “pissisness” and outrage. Catch me on any given day screaming at the news and I might not seem like such a peaceful individual.)
Robin,
I didn’t mean to diminish you daughters friends.
I have a really big problem with the NA attitude against the Palestinians. They include the Muslims in this attitude!
Religion is the basis of the MSM (main stream media) condemnation of the Palestinians.
Since I am a non-believer I can look at this from a neutral perspective.
Bush is using his religion to further his cause. Israel can use Bush to help their cause.
As I have found out the Israeli lobby is the largest lobby in the US. (I could be wrong.)
Their money comes from all religions except from Islam. Does this tell us something?
Keep Bush happy and Israel happy and the money will keep flowing.
God told me seems to be the excuse of Bush. (The extreme right applaudes).
The division between state and religion is dissapearing very fast.
What happened in South Africa pales to what is happening in Palestein.
As you may know, Nakba means “catastrophe”.
http://www.alnakba.org/
il Nakba, 15 May, is remembered every year as the day after Israel declared itself an independent state, 14 May 1948. This is when thousands of Palestinians were forcefully driven from their homes, as in Ramla and Lydda, and made to walk with whatever they could carry to Jordan (then including Jerusalem). Many more fled in fear of the aftermath of the massacre at Deir Yassin.
http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html
Most expected to return within a few days or weeks, leaving behind everything. Most never were allowed to return, instead becoming internal or external refugees (internal refugees live in Israel, West Bank, or Gaza, but cannot return to their family homes. external refugees are in the rest of the diaspora.) Those who did return found their homes either destroyed or occupied by new Israeli residents and joined the list of internal refugees.
See UN Resolution 194 for Palestinian right of return:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/c758572b78d1cd0085256bcf0077e51a!OpenDocument
or:
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
or:
Amnesty International
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150132001?open&of=ENG-PSE
Raymond,
Thank you. I was being sort of lazy when I asked but I was a bit confused and thought the word might mean “diaspora” and thus was an ongoing state as opposed to an event or as in this case a series of events. I’m sure I had heard it before but wasn’t connecting it. Many moons ago it was my ex who first told me of Deir Yassin. I’ve done ALOT of research and found guess what, Zionist denials of the event. Yeh, one more for the book of lies.
Liberty is an ideal for ALL. Beautiful sounding word, too often used to propogate attrocities against others. Thanks again!! and for the links too.
Robin:
It’s nothing. Just my life. ; )
Happy to see you back. Hope you have some peace.
Further reading: lookup the Declaration of the State of Israel and the Law of Return. Further insurance of the realisation of Eretz Israel, and further obliteration of hope for Palestinian right of return.
Denial is not a river in Egypt. (although, if you are patient, apparently god will grant you all of the land between that river and another in Iraq)
Good to remember, also, that the U.S. founding fathers were slave owners, that the emancipation in 1863 was thirty years after that of the British Empire, and that it took another one-hundred years before African Americans could use the same water fountain.
Give who liberty? A truly progressive nation, indeed.
Raymond,
Hi! again. Very glad to be back with my family here, kids, husband and friends, and COMPUTER!!
I took your suggested topics. Here’s the Wikidepia qoute I found absolutely abominable: (googled Declaration of the State of Israel, this is in the Israeli statement) It describes Jewish immigrants to Israel in the following terms:
Pioneers … and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country’s inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.
Which part to dissect first? Lies, Lies, Lies. But the very best term is “loving peace”. Where were all the Palestinians supposed to go? For God’s sake, this does not make sense.
On the Jewish Right to return, recently extended: So much contraversy over “Who is a Jew”. My my. If you’re not Jewish enough you are denied citizenship. “The only democracy in the Middle East”? What can I say, BULL! (I already knew about this one but it had not come up before). If Madonna actually converts can she become an Israeli citizen? Is there such a thing as a Jewish or non Jewish house pet? Which ones get to get past quarentine?
Eretz Israel: (Wikipedia) The Tanakh (or Hebrew Bible, referred to also as the “Old Testament” by Christians) contains several descriptions of the borders of the land.[1] These descriptions encompass a region that extends from the “River of Egypt”[2] to the Euphrates. Areas known to be included are the modern State of Israel, territories of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), the Gaza Strip, and much of modern-day Syria and Lebanon. The biblically described region also encompasses the Sinai Peninsula, which is widely believed to encompass the route of the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt. The land allocated east of the Jordern river in Numbers 34:1-15 includes much of Jordan.
Good God, they’re not done yet! Settlements? God gave them to them over 2500 years ago. Who has the deeds?
Very Clever. Build a wall for protection. “Give back” some land to appease (hah! as if it is “theirs” to give. Here’s another to add to the list of information: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_242.php. Interesting reading. UN 242 asked for withdrawal from “territories” as opposed to “the territories” (Those occupied in ’67.
SO convaluted. Where the HELL is the justice?
He who wins the war, writes the history.
That should explain everything.
Jews won and the Palestinians lost.
History!
Israel can now do whatever they wan’t because they won.
The US supports them and that is another cover.
WE ARE THE PERSECUTED RACE!
This mantra is wearing very thin.
They are persecuting the Palestinians as bad as they were persecuted.
Would you rather:
A) Have your hand cut off with an axe
or
B) Have your hand removed with a file, bit by bit, over the course of 58+ years
Robin:
It’s all “theirs” according to god. Didn’t you get the memo?
Raymond,
From my perspective, I would rather grab the axe and chase the “chopper” away. But if that were not possible, and the “chopper” or “filer” was intent on their actions, I would repeat the Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”. Certainly, in this case (the Palestinian crisis), the “choppers” and “filers” are not listening. Add to that those who approve and condone the “chopper’s and filer’s” actions. Here in the West, we (not us and others) view the Zionistas as “justified choppers” rather than “filers”.
I saw that “memo” and considered the source. Kimmy always says the victor writes the history. In this case, the Zionists are writing the God-given OUTCOME. This justifies the “chopping and filing”. Imagine, you are able to write a book that says God favors your people, the sons of Isaac, over the sons of Ishmael and then everone buys into it. What God just chooses to favor one set of peoples over another? Is it because those people worship you that you favor them? I’m not really too versed in this subject, but THAT part I am aware of. What did Ishmael do to earn his “father’s” wrath?
Last night I was watching part of the “Kingdom of Heaven”. There is a scene where the valient Crusader (HA!) is going to defend Jerusalem against the forces of Saladin (Moslem). He says to this affect, “None of these forces coming to fight us were alive when we took Jerusalem. None of us were alive or responsible for taking this city. Here is the Temple of Solomon, the Holy Seplecher and the Dome of the Rock built upon the Temple. It is the people here in the city whom we must protect” I fell asleep so I don’t know what happened. But I do know this, in the case of the Palestinians, many of the 48′s are now gone. Yet the attrocities of the “choppers and filers” still continue. Eretz Israel, the most stauch Zionists are not yet done. In their mind God has chosen them, it is “written” that they shall prevail. The memo? Who wrote it? The mindset began thousands of years ago. It is irrational in this day. It leaves no room for compromise and debases all others but themselves. And for the right-wing Christians, it is also a part of their destiny, the rapture. It’s the “end times” mentality. What about all of us other people who didn’t get the memo? I am so VERY glad someone got it because somebody’s got to be God’s favorite. This is a God of wrath and vengeance, not anything I personally want to have anything to do with.
“Even the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose.”
-Mark Twain
I say maybe the devil can write scripture for his own purpose.
god, too. And humans… let’s not forget humans.
To their credit, baboons stay clear of scripture, preferring instead the political correctness of banana eating and feces throwing.
Humans ALWAYS actually write the scripture (Note, I am leaving open widely the belief in “divine inspiration” and do not wish to offend anyone in my statement)
Yes baboons stay clear of scripture and throw poop at each other. Better poop than bullets! Felines tend to use their claws and cause absesses that fester and cause infection and tenderness to where even their owners can barely touch them. Praying to the God of all mankind for peace.
To avoid being embroiled in something that will drive me to the poorhouse from lack of work completion or alternately the nuthouse from sleep deprivation, I have only one comment:
Though Scripture guides me (no, I am not a Zionist nor a member of any other grand conspiracy), I kind of like the baboon hypothesis! Of course, isn’t feces throwing suspiciously akin to politics? ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
sorrey to tell you that I’ve read almost every letter and what I got out of it is simply pure hate. most of you guys hate us jews becouse we are what we are .becouse we made it our business to look into mankind’s soul and pass our opinion about most human conflicts.yes we are there at the midst of the conflicts between our heads and our hearts .yes we jew are ery opinionated about these conflicts and do no0t wash them away using this liquide or another.yes we can stand the heat of this kitchen and we enjoy it. this is exectly the reason you admire us sometimes and hate us the rest.
love you all
adi
Genesis 16, vs 11-12: (God addressing Hagar) “You are now pregnant and shall bear a son; you shall name him Ishmael, For the Lord has heard you, God has answered you. He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; in opposition to all his kin shall he encamp”.
Where did the hatred begin? This is the crux, the very “genesis” of the Jewish justification of their superiority.
I am beginning to agree with Kimmy more and more. Religions are used for hateful reasons to justify things that no God of all mankind would ever do. No single human being was ever put on this earth as superior to the other. Life is not a soap opera that some heavenly being set up to watch for his own gratification. Making another to be as an “ass” for eternity? God in heaven save us all from the misuse of your name.
Adi,
First off, no one here is attacking the Jewish faith. In the above post#41 I do quote the ZIONIST justification for a POLITICAL policy which has reeked havoc on another people the Palestinians.
Secondly, let me remind you that not all Jews are Zionists. To say that those who are not Zionists are “self-haters” is just one more in the line of justifications to persecute another.
Thirdly, if you believe in your heart that you are favored by God no one is going to didlodge you of that belief. It makes you feel good as most things that people believe should. But when you take that “favored” status to mean that you can treat others as lesser beings then it is you with the problem of conscious.
Fourthly, God holds us all (according to any religion) responsible for their deeds towards others. If God doesn’t get us for acting up then the law will, or in theory SHOULD. Zionists are NOT above the laws of human nature. Sorry to disavow you if this is your notion.
If you are admired or hated it is because of your behavior. We cannot see your thoughts but we can surely suffer your actions. If you think you are entitled to the land of Israel, so be it. But if you take that belief and abuse another in your God’s name this is WRONG!! If you read this, please read the following before you respond:
” In what way are the Jews a “chosen people”? Every Jewish man anywhere and at any time when called to the reading of the Torah says, “Who has chosen us from all the peoples and gave us His Torah.” This is the way in which the Jews are chosen. The Jewish people are chosen not for domination over others, not for conquest or warfare, but to serve G-d and thus to serve mankind. “And the hands are the hands of Esau,” has been traditionally interpreted to mean that while “the voice is Jacob’s,” the hands- – symbolizing violence – are Esau’s. Thus physical violence is not a tradition or a value of the Jews. The task for which the Jewish people were chosen is not to set an example of military superiority or technical achievements, but to seek perfection in moral behavior and spiritual purity. Of all the crimes of political Zionism, the worst and most basic, and which explains all its other misdeeds, is that from its beginning Zionism has sought to separate the Jewish people from their G-d, to render the divine covenant null and void, and to substitute a “modern” statehood and fraudulent sovereignty for the lofty ideals of the Jewish people.” http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html
I can only speak for myself when I say that I support the Palestinian people in their struggle for autonomy and their homeland. If you do not wish to accept them as having their rights to their aspirations equal to yours, then it is you with the problem of “hate” (a word YOU used) I am sorry to say.
Haitham: I hope I’m not overstepping your policies.
Adi,
I do not hate anybody, but I do despise and disdain people with the arrogance to think they are better and more righteous than others based on which crotch they were pulled out from.
If you are willing to see yourself as a human being who is equal to all other human beings, then you will get my accept and maybe even admiration if you try to promote such equality. However, since you are the one emphasizing the distinction between Jews and all other people and since it is very clear that you do not make that distinction because you think Jews are a lower life form, then you do not deserve my admiration.
Almost without exception, all demographic atrocities and genocides through history have been committed by nationalist extremists with the justification that they were the ‘chosen ones’ and that they were superior to others.
I have married into a family which has had family members persecuted and which has lost family members to both ‘Aryan nationalism’ and ‘Socialist nationalism’, but that does not mean that I have to admire or accept ‘Jewish nationalism’.
Promoting that I should admire Jews for being Jewish is not different from promoting that I should hate Jews for being Jewish, it is purely a matter of opinions – extremist opinions that is.
“…since it is very clear that you do not make that distinction because you think Jews are a lower life form, then you do not deserve my admiration.”
Hmm, clumsy wording! This can be misunderstood if taken out of context, so please keep it in the right context of emphasizing equality among etnic groups and beliefs and not that I admire people who think Jews are a lower life form!
Robin and Thomas,
I appreciate your response to Adi. I refrained from that bout, thinking it not worth my breath, but you handled it well.
Thomas,
The crotch bit: a little vulgar, but funny (and true)as can be. ;)
Raymond,
Maleesh. “Kitchen friends” ROCK!! (just being silly)
Hi everyone, I am Robin’s daughter. I have heard so much about this blog from my mom over the past months. I just recieved my new laptop today, and decided to see what everyone was discusing. I am about to go to sleep , but I just wanted to introduce myself, and add just a few comments. I do’nt mean to be rude but I find Assadel’s comments concerning Europe absolutely RIDICULOUS. How much time have you spent abroad , and where were you? Also, Kimmy, I mean no harm, I know you are a regular on this blog, and chat with my mom, please just be a bit nicer. She was simply using my friendships as an example that , although we may come from oppositional backgrounds , whether it be political or religion , we manage to share common beliefs.She happens to be pretty smart , in case you had’nt noticed. Thanks for my first blogging experience , and I’ll be back soon
Ahlen. Welcome Sareera. Be careful. Blogging is addictive. :)
Saba’alkheir Habibti Sareera,
Fancy seeing you here. :) Welcome to my “addiction”. This is where I take what I learned from your father, do my best to honor it, and learn from others. If you get involved, you will find it is one of the best places possible to learn. Contributors give links and share their own knowledge so that we can better understand eachother. There is a treasure trove of information here as you will see. We all come from our “own lamps”, one glowing field of lights. Some of us don’t much care for “candle snuffers” and speak our minds. You can find bigotry wherever you go, even here. As a child of two cultures, you have had your share on both sides. You too are one very smart girl who has learned the best and worst of both worlds. Yours is a unique perspective that while I have referenced you several times, you now have the chance to share. (By the way, one rule of blogging, try not to blow your anonymity too much, but since you alreaddy have, here you go, I’m glad you’re here.)
Raymond and others, as you already have read, Sareera is indeed my daughter (although going by a very funny pseudonym). She is the product of a bi-cultural marriage, which though it ended in divorce did not end in disrespect or animosity. Her father and I have done our very best to educate her to the facts and experiences of both of our worlds, while always respecting each other’s culture (the good, not the bad). She is a living testimony tha respect can overcome differences. Throughout the Middle East there is not the opportunity for the “liberty” which we are discussing here. We here in the US also do not have true liberty because we do not have full knowledge beyond our own nationalistic thoughts and actions That we have shouted “Liberty for all” from the rooftops, does not mean that we have practiced it in our actions towards others. I love the ideals of my country, and regret to the bottom of my soul that we have not respected or advanced the liberties of others. Our “lamps” should shine as a welcome to others, the “light in the inn” which welcomes others into comfort. That we have misused the word “liberty” in order to “liberate” (whether it be the Jews from the Holocost, debunked idea, or the Iraqis at the end of a gun-barrel) is a travesty. When liberty for one comes on the back of oppression of another, then the word ceases to exist in its’ meaning. Peace.
Robin,
I suspect that it was a mistake in wording that you stated:
“That we have misused the word “liberty” in order to “liberate” (whether it be the Jews from the Holocost, debunked idea, or the Iraqis at the end of a gun-barrel) is a travesty. When liberty for one comes on the back of oppression of another, then the word ceases to exist in its’ meaning.”
I don’t suspect that you mean to say that liberating the Jews from the Holocaust was a misuse of US power. It was a fine use of power to bring to an end the Jewish holocaust and World War II. (Although it can be noted that the US and other nations did not want to take in those who were displaced by the war, a shame on all involved.)
The abuse of power is what came after, in respect to supporting the occupation of the Palestinians. I am confident that this is what you meant.
Raymond,
That was absolutely horrendous wording on my part. No one here, including myself has EVER denied the Holocost. That the US helped liberate the Jewish people from the Holocost is something any nation with a conscious should have done. A better wording would have been that the State of Israel is not a liberation for the Jewish people when it is done by the devastation of the Palestinians. How can a people be liberated as in, “We are now the free nation of Israel” when in order to accomplish that the Palestinians had to leave their homeland? I sincerely apologize if my words offended anyone. Thank you for correcting me.
“Give Me Liberty or give me death†speech was given by Patrick Henry at the St. John’s Church in Richmond, Virginia in March 23, 1775. It convinced the Virginia House of Burgesses to pass a resolution to send the Virginia troops to the Revolutionary War.
After the Revolution, Henry was an outspoken critic of the United States Constitution and urged against its adoption, arguing it gave the federal government too much power. As a leading Antifederalist, he was active in forcing the adoption of the Bill of Rights to amend the new Constitution. He became a strong opponent of James Madison. By the late 1790s he was a important Federalist in support of Washington and Adams. President George Washington offered him the post of Secretary of State in 1795, which he declined. In 1798 President John Adams nominated him special emissary to France, which he had to decline because of failing health. He strongly supported John Marshall and at the urging of Washington stood for the House of Delegates in 1799 as a Federalist. He denounced the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions, which had been secretly written by Jefferson and Madison, and approved by the legislatures of those two states. He warned that civil war was threatened because Virginia, “had quitted the sphere in which she had been placed by the Constitution, and, in daring to pronounce upon the validity of federal laws, had gone out of her jurisdiction in a manner not warranted by any authority, and in the highest degree alarming to every considerate man; that such opposition, on the part of Virginia, to the acts of the general government, must beget their enforcement by military power; that this would probably produce civil war, foreign alliances, and that foreign alliances must necessarily end in subjugation to the powers called in.” He was elected to the House of Delegates, but died three months prior to taking his seat.
I will only say this, you will not allow “Zionist propaganda” And I do not know who exactly you place in that category, but if you only publish those who favor you… you end up as an Egyptian. You see, they never recorded any of their military defeats, only their victories… a bit one sided and no one learns from this. If you cherish knowledge, and seek further enlightenment, you would welcome debate and contrary opinions. As a believer you will be spoken through as you confront those who oppose you, and in the same moment learn more about your beliefs.
If Christians are Zionist, then label me one of your enemies, though I am not. I share different views and would delight in the opportunity to debate with you… friendly debate. As nothing is solved through the stupidity of violence… and I support the Americans in Iraq. Ask me about this, because I can do it without hypocrisy… do you know how?