The Palestinian American Federation
Press Release
The Palestinian American Federation expresses its disappointment with the passing of HR4681, the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act of 2006. The vote count was 361 yeas, 37 nays, 9 presents (abstentions), and 25 not voting (Roll Call Vote No. 181).
It is a sad day in the history of a country that prides itself on the principles of "Liberty and Justice for all" This bill places the Palestinian People in great danger and would exacerbate a human catastrophe. This bill targets Palestinian families and children, and deprives them of their basic human needs by our Congress.
Instead our Congress should have voted "NO" to this bill to assure that the Palestinian families and children will be treated in a manner that would reflect our values that human lives are valuable.
A " NO" vote would have sent a message to the World of our intense desire to achieve a just and lasting peace. Our American values of compassion and charity were silenced where they should have been emphasized instead.
This vote was not a vote for peace, it was not a vote for America, it was a vote for more violence and more bloodshed.
As Rep. John Dingell ( D-MI) simply put it" Peace in the Middle East is not going to be achieved at gunpoint. It is going to be achieved by negotiations, by people working together; and that process may be ugly, dirty and slow, but it is the only process that will work."... "Our purpose should be to look to the well-being of the United States, craft a policy which is good for this country. And that policy can only be one which is good for Israel and for the Palestinian people, one which is fair to all, one which puts the United States as a friend and an honest broker of peace to both parties where we can be so accepted
Please go to the link below to find out which way your congressman voted, send him a thank you note if he voted yes, but if he voted NO, before you blame him ask yourself when was the last time he/she heard from you? Educate him, get involved.
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{ 65 comments }
“Educate him, get involved.”
aaah the smell of political naiveness. the votes were courted, planned and set. there wasn’t even a party struggle. it passed with ease. a constituent calling his representitive to “educate” him is a great right, but a useless one in this case. they knew what they were doing and the consequence of their actions. there’s no pleading ignorance on this one.
I think there is a positive aspect of this.
The United States, and especially most of its people, are living in complete separation of the reality that goes on on a daily basis in the Middle East. They know things are wrong, and when they ask why the answer is usually along the lines of “terrorism is the cause”. Therefore, they must deal with this terrorism problem, and in that context this act makes sense to most Americans who live in such state of ignorance of reality. The US shouldn’t sponsor [Palestinian] terrorism.
However, this act is really not going to change anything or make it better for the Americans. It has already incited more hate and displeasure towards the US in the Muslim world, and it is going to physically cause harm to the already harmed and brutalized Palestinians who live in Gaza and the West Bank. Things ARE going to get worse in the Middle East because of this act and that will translate to more troubles in the Middle East and in return more trouble for the Israelies and their allies in the US and finally the American people.
A person who lives in complete denial of his or her surroundings can only go so far before realizing that they are clueless and that something completely different and radical has to be done.
At one point in the future, the United States is going to hit that state of awareness, when they realize that nothing makes sense based on their assumptions, and it is at that point that they’re going to have to reconsider all their assumptions about the Middle East. The average American who usually doesn’t care about foreign policy that much is going to realize that caring about domestic policies when voting is simply not enough. And this is already happening, everyone knows about the research paper that was published about the Israel Lobby in the US. It’s one example of people in the US waking up to the reality of their nation’s extremely biased and inhumane involvement in the Middle East.
Maybe this act is taking the US one step closer to confrontation with the real problem; their sponsoring of a terrorist and apartheid state of Israel.
Don’t hold your breath. The likelihood that the U.S. proletariat will wake up is as slim as Kafka’s “Hunger Artist.” Most are resigned to doing absolutely nothing, either feeling that there is nothing they can do, or not being bothered enough to do anything.
The days of revolution in the U.S. are long passed. I would be thrilled to be challenged on this point by the actions of the many toward global consciousness and responsibility.
The majority has yet to call for the impeachment of their President, guilty of acts as bad as or exceeding those of Nixon. Certainly far exceeding those for which Clinton was impeached.
I think the majority of U.S. citizens would have to fall below the poverty line before they raised themselves against the atrocity that is in their seat of power.
Raymond, I wouldn’t hold my breath for that to happen anytime soon :D Restoring peace and justice to the Middle East is going to take a very long time probably most of us won’t even live to see it happen.
This is for me personally a hard subject to broach. I received the CFL alert concerning this bill, I clicked the appropriate box. Do I personally think it makes much difference? No, sadly I do not. This is an instance of David vs. Goliath (apoligies for using a Jewish analogy, but it is the first one that comes to mind). I am a constant student of political science and a former government teacher. I actually gave my seniors in high school extra credit for registering to vote. I will ALWAYS vote, even when the choices are so dim. Do I think one vote makes a difference? Absolutely in that we all must take personal responsibility for being aware and participating. But in the case of the Palestinian issue, there are no viable options for us as Americans to choose, they are all pro-Israeli. It need not really matter why, it is just so.
Something troubles me greatly in this matter. The Israelis could not possibly do what they do without the support of the US. On the other hand we have the Palestinians who have little support from the other Arab nations of the Mideast. We have a lot of lip-service from the Arab countries, but no where near the support that I think could be possible. The Arabs boycott Israel, but when it comes right down to it, I do not believe they are doing all they can do. In the 70′s there was the oil embargo. Now THAT was some action. Somewhere in this equation I feel like some of the Arab countries would rather this problem continue so that it can be used as a scapegoat and diversion from their own inadequasies. If the Arab despots are able to unite their citizens in their hatred of Israel they are able to ignore many of the problems in their own countries. It’s always Israel’s fault for everything (believe me, I am NOT trying to take away from any of what Israel does). What if the Arabs took their oil and put their money where their mouth is? What if the Gulf states launched a full force information campaign to bring attention to the situation? Why can’t the other Arab nations do more for the Palestinians?
On the other hand, as an American, if I could personally change our politicians support of Israel, I would more than gladly do all that I could do. I’m a single person. The bottom line is the Palestinians are outnumbered in support, that is the problem. I don’t mean to ruffle any feathers but sitting by and thinking the US is going to change course under the current situation is only very wishful thinking. Instead of wishful thinking, it is up to someone to step up to the plate and shake things up. Perhaps I’m all wrong. Perhaps there are good reasons the other Arab nations cannot do more. I just hate seeing fat-cat Gulf Arabs sitting around bemoaning the problem when they have the economic power to actually do something about it. I am very open to suggestions as to why this is not a good idea. Could someone explain this to me?
Good news. It’s not anti-Palestinian; it is pro-Palestinian, but anti-Hamas. Don’t we all agree that Hamas is no good? The sooner there is a viable alternative to Hamas and Fateh the sooner Palesinians will start living better. The bill is likely to help.
Just a view point; no offence meant.
shlemazl is right. Things would be entirely different were Hamas not a terrorist organization with a very recent terrorist past who refuses to stop using terrorist tactics. By electing Hamas, the Palestinians gave America no real choice in the matter – the Americans can’t say that they are fighting against those who fund terror and then give money to Hamas.
Hamas is bad for the Palestinians. They wanted power because they wanted access to money – not because they care about the welfare of the Palestinian people or because they want peace with Israel. The Palestinians will be much worse off with the Hamas government regardless of the international aid situation and the sooner Hamas is out the better.
shlemazl,
HR4681 punishes the general populace of Palestine, not just the governing body.
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=14037
http://www.btselem.org/english/special/20060514_Health_Services_Crisis.asp
Here’s an excellent article about why the Hamas victory should not be viewed as bad by the US: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/pb46_Brown_final.pdf
Good points Robin.
Raymond, the general populace of Palestine voted in the Hamas government. Did they not foresee a reaction like this from their biggest financier, the US, before they voted in an organisation that uses terror tactics to further their cause?
Ever heard the phrase ‘biting the hand that feeds you?’ Sadly, it is almost literal in this case.
Keep in mind, my fiance’ is from Israel and is Arab. Many of the Arabs living there believe their compatriots shot themselves in the foot when they voted for Hamas.
I am reminded of the proverb that says ‘Why should fools have money for an education when they refuse to learn?’
I am personally sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people. I have seen, first hand, the effects of the Israelis there. However, as all parents know, you do not reward bad behavior of your children.
Here’s another axiom: Be careful of what you wish for.
With the current neo-conservative lunatics in control of US policy (in bed with the Zionists) there is no hope for a just US policy towards the Palestinians. Maybe I’m all wrong but didn’t Abbas and many other Palestinians want to postpone the election?
The basic problem as I see it from a US foreign policy basis is that the American public has been sold a bill of goods based on Zionist fairy tales. 1)Israel is the only democracy in the Mideast (BAH!!) 2)US style democracy is good for the Mideast 3)Give them elections and everything will work out.
The worst problem is American total ignorance of the Arab prospective. Case in point: Remember Rummie, Cheney, Pearl and others telling us that the Iraqi citizens would roll out the red-carpet, we’d get rid of the Baathists, there will be elections and everything will be hunky-dorey? If you know ANYTHING at all about the Arab perspective you would know this was pure hogwash.
These elections were held, Hamas was elected. The Palestinians chose Hamas because of Fateh’s inadequasies and chicanery. No one is lillie pure in this case, but starving the Palestinian people and passing US laws such as this only ratchets up the animosity. It has gone from the “ball in in your court” to the Caterpillar will tear down your house and Islamic Jihad (or others) will launch a suicide attack. Has anyone ever heard of using a carrot rather than the stick as a method of first choice? Why is it that no matter what the Palestinians do it just isn’t right? Yes Hamas was a risk to vote in, but after years of Fateh failure it was chosen as the only other option put to them. (Maybe the US would have been smart to install it’s own Dibold machines to secure the outcome they wished for) But I suggest that no matter WHO the Palestinians had voted for Israel would not budge and through their lackies in Congress, US policy would not have changed.
Another thought. Maybe if a warning memo issued by the US would have been posted at each Palestinian voting booth then Hamas would not have won. (Extreme sarcasm). I suspect that the memo would have only garnered more votes for Hamas because even moderate Palestinians would have been given the cause to show their middle finger. I am NOT saying that the Hamas victory was good. I am simply stating it is a fact. I see the Hamas victory as a desperate clutching at self-determination. I further suspect that the Zionists (despite their public claims) relished the Hamas victory because it furthers their cause as victims. Again, maybe I’m all washed up but it’s just my opinion. I only see a witch’s cauldron being stirred.
Haitham,
Up above it says, “go to the link below to see how your congressman voted” but I don’t see a link. I found this one:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/house/2/votes/181/
Woops, it said look “below” but it was above. My mistake.
Sorry, Robin!
Fixed now. It’s now ‘above’ and ‘below’ :-D
I have not seen this being publicly announced on any American news media, therefore millions of Americans still remain missinformed about this sad issue. Truly, I would have not expected any different outcome as for this passed bill.
As for every conflict in the Middle East, America is just using the lame old excuse of terrorism to further their cause. Clearly America is in the support of Israel. What ever the Palestinians do in their self-defense is conssideret a terrorist act, supported by Hamas. Why is it that just because Israel has proper military equipment and doesn’t use bombs justify their terror and the taking of innocent life? Palestinians are terrorists for killing an Israeli, yet Israelis are NOT-terrorists for killing a Palestinian.
You know very well that Israel uses bombs. They fire them from the Apache helicopters that the U.S. has sold them.
Of course HR4681 didn’t make the news in the U.S. Had it gained widespread exposure, perhaps Olmert would not have received so many standing ovations for his “great peacemaking initiatives”. But that is hopeful thinking.
Unfortuneately, that doesn’t let the Americans off the hook. The fact that the wide majority accepts whatever garbage is fed them from their little boxes is proof that they are a wide majority of fools. I have no problem with fools per se, except when their ignorance means the destruction of lives.
It is known that Fatah was corrupt to the bone and merely lining their pockets while the general populace went to the dogs. So that populace voted Hamas. Now everyone is pulling their funding and the Palestinians are suffering. You know that they suffered under Fatah and they suffered before Oslo, from 1948 through the present day.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Freedom_of_Movement/Economy_1967_1994.asp
Palestinian parties and allegiances have shifted innumerably over the last 58 year, but one thing has not: Israel’s determination to erase Palestine by creating new facts on the ground. Despite UN resolutions and despite Oslo, they continued to do it when they had a “partner in peace” and they’ll continue to do it without. Hamas is just another excuse to do what they more quietly were doing before: destroying Palestinian homes and building new Israeli ones.
And with a partner in the US and others in the world community, they will go on doing so until the remaining 13 percent becomes zero. What does John or Jane Q. Public of Bangor, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Houston, Wichita, Aspen, or Seattle care? Everybody’s equal under the US Constitution, right? Pay your taxes, lend your neighbor eggs and flour, use recycled toilet paper and die with a clean conscience.
500 million dollars are being spent on a 9-11 memorial while New York’s homeless population is the largest it has been in all of history.
http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/advocacy/basic_facts.html
Meanwhile, farmers leave their lands fallow to maximise profits, and funds are cut to programs like Headstart and Boys and Girls clubs.
Tell me, from even an extremely nationalist standpoint (or especially from one), how can the U.S. afford to be spending the 280 billion (and growing) in Iraq?
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
How can the U.S. afford aid to Israel?
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
How can the U.S. afford to be ignorant?
And I thought such act has been already in act, since God knows when!
Yeah, like it gonna make a differene or change the fact that Palestinians are already living in hell!
Satan is complaning that Palestinians who go to hell feel like home!
For regular updates on what’s happening in Palestine:
http://english.wafa.ps/
Hey Robin,
As an Israeli (and a Zionist), I can tell you that you suspect wrong. The vast majority of us held very dearly to the myth that the majority of Palestinians want peace and that the terrorists are just a tiny minority who don’t enjoy popular support. Hamas’ landslide was devastating for us because it shattered that myth.
Hey Streetcat,
I’m not Palestinian by any far stretch of the imagination. But since you are a self-proclaimed Zionist and you addressed me, I would really be interested in what your definition of peace is? I would really like to hear your proposed plan. (I am also STRONGLY anti-terrorist btw, but that goes for all parties.)
Streetcat,
You actually believed that oppressing the Palestinians for 58 years would endear them toward peace with Israel?
Streetcat,
I join Robin with interest in your definition of peace and what you see as the solution.
Streetcat,
I join Robin with interest in your definition of peace and what you see as the solution. In terms of the land, what do you see as the goals of Zionism and what does this mean for the Palestinians?
Raymond,
“Tell me, from even an extremely nationalist standpoint (or especially from one), how can the U.S. afford to be spending the 280 billion (and growing) in Iraq?” “How can the U.S. afford aid to Israel?”
How? By increasing the continuously rising debt that has already passed their heads. America has broken the world record with $44 trillion dollars, the highest debt ratio in history; that is $147,312 per one person to pay off. Ameirca will continue to finance these acts, and the debt will keep rising.
Yes, I know Israelis are using bombs it is just in the way they use them that makes them non-terrorist. Just because they throw them on innocent civilians, and don’t wrap the bomb around their waste and blow themselves up with everyone else, makes them a legitimate solider, not a terrorist. Even though in both cases, innocent lives are taken, the Israeli way of taking a life is justified. This is the difference people see, and it is this difference that portrays the Isralis as the innocent ones, and Palestinians as the guilty ones. Now that Hamas came along, they just gave Israel another reason to claim it’s innocence, because people were ignorant from the start, so how can they see the truth at this point? And because of this the terror acts of Israel go unnoticed, while any act from the Palestinians is echcing through out the ears of these ignorant people.
You, I, and some others may see the clear truth but things like these darken the minds of those people who don’t see. Because they look for the needle in the hay, and a hair in the egg, just to find the small fault to support their false misconceptions.
Have any of you seen this? Israel allows shipment of arms to PA
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/&articleid=272788
Or this? Abbas gives Hamas 10 days to accept plan that recognizes Israel http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0526/dailyUpdate.html
Or this? Israel rethinks embargo to Palestinians http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060523-111935-4205r.htm
Muslimah you said none of this has been in the news. Well, I don’t know exactly where you are but you’re right as far as any of the mainstream media here in the US goes. One surprise to me, Bush was against the bill. My GOD in heaven, he finally has a correct opinion on something!
Re: Arms to PA… they’re for the presidential guard. Israel wants to see Abbas’ guards kill some more Hamas members so that the IOF doesn’t have to waste so many bullets and mortar shells.
Re: 10 days… or else Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians will be severely punished. Wait… that’s already been happening for the last 58 years. Arafat and the PLO recognised Israel at Oslo, and all they got was this lousy t-shirt.
Re: Olmert… amazing how Israel sticks a knife in the Palestinians and receives a standing ovation when they remove the knife.
Re: Bush… if true, I’m sure he had written “Neato” at the bottom of the bill, but his sloppy handwriting was taken to read “Veto”.
Hey everyone, I am a bit confused here. We are discussing this House Bill, HR4681. Is there a Senate bill concerning the same issue? Basic government 101: A bill can be introduced by either chamber of Congress. It is voted upon. It is NOT law yet. It then goes to the other chamber where they discuss it in committee, and vote either to not introduce the bill, amend the bill, or come up with a similar bill. It then goes to a vote in that chamber. There is often joint conference pertaining to a bill between the two chambers. To make a long story short, if the bill passes BOTH houses then it goes to the President.
That this bill passed the House is BAD, but it ‘aint over till the fat lady sings. Is anyone aware if this has been proposed to the Senate or if they have passed a bill of their own? Raymond?
Any other Americans or other friends know?
For those who want a better explanation than the one I gave here it is http://www.vote-smart.org/resource_govt101_02.php
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before. (probably to ticked to think straight!!)
Good point, Robin. Haven’t heard of same in Senate.
There is one clincher, I found: Sending funds to aid Palestinians with distribution handled by Hamas. For obvious reasons, Hamas cannot be trusted to that end. Now, I opposed the bill (and wrote my congressman who, unfortunately, voted “Yea”), because it ended all diplomacy. That is foolishness. How can the US influence them without diplomatic relations? Obviously, Bush comprehends this. Unfortunately, the various Democrat and Republican members of the House of Representatives either did not or wanted their name attached to an “anti-terrorism” bill. A better drafting would have continued diplomatic relations with Hamas, clarifying a strong opposition to terrorism. Then aid to Palestinians would be handles entirely by an NGO, perhaps the Red Crescent, stipulating that the Hamas government may not interfere with the handling of these funds. I do agree, though, that those voting for Hamas should have realized what a foolish move it was. I mean, after all, is the US obligated to send aid to the Palestinians (or anyone else)? It’s like saying, “Please, please help me out (you SOB), because I am terribly needy (stupid motherf***er)!”
Robin, I am going to have to argue with you on your 3 points regarding neocon myths:
1)Israel is the only democracy in the Mideast (BAH!!)
I’ve never heard this.
2)US style democracy is good for the Mideast
Freedom and liberty are good. Other Middle Eastern countries have done it (ref statement #1)
3)Give them elections and everything will work out.
A little simplistic, yes, but it’s a start. The American democracy experiment was less than smooth, too, and the nation nearly split less than 100 years into it. Issues vary from nation to nation, region to region, but the right of humans to be free is universal, and it burns in the hearts of many (and threatens many others).
Philip,
Here you go again comparing everyone else in the world to the US. Heavens to betsy, as my grandmother always said, the Mideast is NOT the US. I am not in any way suggesting that your dreams are not noble, but given the current state in the rise of extremism, I am afraid the US missed the boat. Or put it this way, we have so much blood on our hands in the Mideast it is for all purposes impossible for democracy to be given them as a gift from us. The democracy WE want for them goes well beyond elections. What we ultimately want is open markets and control. What if they want a more socialistic system? We see how far that got our neighbors to the south. Once again, I reiterate, you CANNOT force democracy by the barrel of a machine gun. Do you have ANY idea the degree of hatred for the US around the world? Thank god that most foreigners can distinguish between hating our policy and hating individuals. We may very well be a place that legions flock to. But we are also a nation that has been using our military industrial complex to benefit our big corporations that have raped the natural resources of those nations. Philip, we are fellow Americans, we both love our country, albeit, for very different reasons. For years and years we have been supporting Israel in it’s atrocities against the Palestinians. For years and years we have supported despotic Mideast rulers who have squandered the wealth of their countries and murdered their citizens. These despots we have supported ruled their people with iron fists. Philip, I said over on another link, L-I-S-T-E-N to what you can here. Some may be vitriolic, but listen to the facts as they see them and listen for the tone. Have you travelled to the Mideast? Have you lived there? Are you more of an expert than they are? They hate us FOR A REASON!!!!! At least try to find out why. I would LOVE for the Mideast to be awash in a sea of freedom. But how can my wishes outweigh their sovereignty? And guess what, their idea of freedom is VERY different than yours and mine. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Please Philip, stop telling everyone here how to think and instead take the opportunity to learn.
I am not telling people how to think; I am offering an alternative that appears to be largely misunderstood. US foreign policy has caused a rift. Yes, it is true. It has been a flawed policy to support scoundrels who are against our enemies.
BUT…
That does not make the American ideal (I use the term “American” only for clarification; many other nations obviously do the same) a bad fit for other nations. I was just on an Iranian Voices website/blog that has Iranians screaming for western-style democracy. The mullahs, of course, don’t feel the same, but that’s more or less the point! The US isn’t trying to enforce free market capitalism. We barely have that here. The Iraqi government is only being swayed to provide the essential liberties, one of which is religious freedom (uncommon in the Middle East, especially considering that nations that “allow” Christianity only allow certain practices, the Great Commission being one that will get you imprisoned). The US is simply trying to get them to democratically elect leaders and create a checks-and-balances system. The constitution drafting had very little US involvement. While I am a die hard capitalist, I see no need to force that on other nations, and apparently the administration doesn’t either. But forcing democracy at the barrel of a gun is a faulty analogy. We forced a tyrant OUT by the barrel of a gun. Bang bang, out goes the disease. The gun barrel is being used as well to try to eliminate the cancer as it attempts re-infect the recently liberated nation. If the insurgents and the terrorists would shed their tails and grow some humanity like the rest of the Iraqi people, and let the by far mostly GOOD people of Iraq determine their own destiny, 90% of our troops would be gone before you could say, “Ahmadinejad.” How many Iraqi civilians would have died since the fall of Saddam had the terrorists and insurgents not begun their nefarious acts? Would ANY have (by wartime means)? The sad thing is, the US will take the blame, although the very destabilizing forces in the nation are THE source of the violence.
The final question is this: Can we remove Middle Easterners’ sovereignty by insisting that they be free? No, but we can (and should) recognize tyrants and their goals and eliminate or otherwise neutralize them in the most efficient possible way (not to say Iraq has been efficient, but that’s a whole other story). Then we should provide freedom…at least offer it, and don’t let armed thugs rob people of that chance when it arrives. The real reason, as it is, for promoting freedom and democracy is that such systems typically do not lead to true tyranny and radicalism (references to Bush in these terms is hyperbole, so I wouldn’t waste effort applying them to him), and when such characters arise, the more democratic systems are in place, the more quickly they will fall. I know we can’t one by one pick off every Saddam Hussein, every Fidel Castro, every Kim Jong IL..but the more freedom there is around them, the harder it is for them to stay in power. And I do believe that freedom and liberty are human rights. I just can’t shake it!
Let’s start with this statement of yours: “The US is simply trying to get them to democratically elect leaders and create a checks-and-balances system”. Please explain to me what your definition of democracy is? You say we want them to elect their leaders. Philip, I hate to disavow you of your ideals, but if these countries all over the Middle East hold elections tomorrow, you just might not like the outcome. What you want, what the US wants, if for them to overwhelmingly want what we want. Why did Hamas win? There was an election, Hamas won. Simple. Extremism has taken over because it is an answer to years of US meddling. Simple axiom: for every action there is a reaction. Until you personally become a citizen of one of these countries it is not your darn business as a US citizen to tell them what to do. These countries did not elect GB, we did. Somewhere here you said you are more Libertarian. Libertarians do NOT think in this fashion. How can you possibly say that federal government should have no role in education for the individual states and on the other hand suggest that we should be spending our money (in this case going into irretrievable debt) to promote democracy (you are so very naive on this one) around the globe? First off, millions are dying in various civil wars in Africa, four million alone in the Congo since 1998, and the US isn’t sending in thousands of troops to help them out. Our interests are selfish strategic ones, pure and simple. We have supported dictators for years, INCLUDING Saddam in the war against Iran, and then we wake up one morning and say, “Shit, they don’t seem to like us very much. We better give them democracy so they learn to appreciate us more.” How many Iraqis do you actually think thought this boon-doggle would work. Oh I forgot, according to you they all did and for some reason they just are un-grateful sons of bitches. If anything unites the Iraqis it is their desire for us to be gone. But here we are in a catch 22. We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t Philip, it was the most ill-thought out war ever planned. Besides that, your dear president was also the one who said, “We’re going to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here”. Which is it? We were using Iraq to smoke out the terrorists or we were there just to give them the gift of democracy? You CANNOT have it both ways. We could stay there for 20 more years and it is only going to get worse unless we send in enough troops to get every single nook and cranny under control. We bit off more than we can chew and the facts speak for themselves.
Apologies for getting off on this tangent because the link is about the anti-Palestinian act, someone please help us get back to the subject.
Philip,
You said: “The final question is this: Can we remove Middle Easterners’ sovereignty by insisting that they be free? No, but we can (and should) recognize tyrants and their goals and eliminate or otherwise neutralize them in the most efficient possible way (not to say Iraq has been efficient, but that’s a whole other story).”
No you should not! You should step back and let people deal with their own problems.
It is not a “whole other story”. It IS the story!
The ‘story’ of your government is that it creates a monster and supplies it with weapons, training in murder and torture, and financial and technological backing. When the day comes that you can no longer control the monster you have created then you say “Ooops!” and then you create a new monster to compensate for the old one that got out of hands. Creating a bigger and ‘better’ monster is not, and has never been, an efficient way to ‘neutralize’ anything!
You said: “Then we should provide freedom…at least offer it…”
No you should not! Nobody can provide freedom – only the opposite!
The problem is not that some people have freedom while other people do not. Everybody has freedom, but some people live under dictators who do everything they can to suppress freedom. Without suppression in any form people have full unrestricted freedom. You cannot provide freedom, but you can stop providing monsters who restrict freedom. Freedom is already there, but sometimes it is so restricted that it is damn hard to see it!
You said: “I know we can’t one by one pick off every Saddam Hussein, every Fidel Castro, every Kim Jong IL..but the more freedom there is around them, the harder it is for them to stay in power.”
Sorry, but this is complete nonsense!
Monsters are completely unaffected by ‘freedom around them’ as that does not prevent them from staying in power. Freedom of others is something they will abuse as much as they are able to. If you do not feed the monsters then they will be less able to abuse freedom and it will allow those people whose freedom is at stake to ‘pick them off’ as soon as they start thinking about turning into monsters in the first place.
If your Saddam-monster had not been fed in the first place, then Iraqis would have had the chance to stop him before he could establish his decades long dictarship. I do not necessarily agree with their methods, but a very large part of those people you call ‘insurgents’ and ‘terrorists’ are Iraqis who are really really pissed about you helping your Saddam-monster to restrict their freedom and who do not want to thank you for removing the monster that you created yourself. If I step on your right foot are you going to thank me for not stepping on your left foot – even if I step on your right foot again?
And, don’t tell me that there were justifications for supporting the Saddam Hussein-monster in the war between Iraq and Iran, because that war was a result of that the Ayatollah Khomeini-monster replaced the Shah Pahlavi-monster that you created in Iran as replacement for the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in the coup of 1953. Does ‘Operation Ajax’ ring a bell? In order for fair to be fair, the British were the ones to come up with the idea of the operation.
The USA has NEVER been the international propagator of freedom. Why should anybody believe you now? Because you ousted the monster you created and bombed the country to rubble in the process?
Robin,
I didn’t see your post until after I posted.
Well, the USA government making decisions on how to meddle with other countries regardless of what the people of those countries desire is ‘on the topic’. Not smack in the middle, but sort of on :)
Robin and Thomas,
What you are talking about is as much to the point as discussing HR4681, the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act of 2006. What is comes down to the US determining first what is good for US interests and then passing legislation and/or going to war to to realise their world vision. George Bush senior’s “New World Order” is being brought to fruition through the son, by hook and/or crook. As you both pointed out, this strategy was not born of the latest administration, nor that of George Bush senior, but decades (if not centuries) ago in the US’s expansionist enterprise.
Lest we forget, here are some of the US’s deplorable acts, meant not to spread democracy, but to colonise:
Inside US:
Slaughter and subsequent oppression (ongoing) of the Native Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears (and much before this)
Slavery (also affecting African nations), legacy denied by US absence from Durbin 2001
Segregation
Hawaii
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/21/132247
Outside US (Military and CIA):
Panama 1904
Iran 1953
Guatamala 1954
Vietnam 1962
Iraq 1963
El Salvador 1980
Nicaragua 1985
Libya 1986
Iraq 1991
Iraq – trade sanctions responsible for the starvation deaths of hundreds of thousands
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 2001 – ?
Iraq 2003 – ?
More comprehensive list here:
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
Philip,
Please reference this site with all the available information:
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=18 concerning the cost of the Iraq war.
Next, please reference this site concerning US aid to Israel:
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4
Next, please reference this site concerning our current administration’s neocon agenda: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3249.htm. This document you will read about on this site was produced by a think tank called Project for the New American Century, PNAC for short. You can do more research on this illustious entity and please feel free to cross-check membership with other Zionist organizations.
Next, read the following concerning US military aid to Israel
http://worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
Next, read about the use of depleted uranium in US bombs being dropped on Iraq: http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Depleteduranium081804.shtml If you don’t trust this source I give, do a little research on your own.
After you have done all of the above, maybe you could answer this question for me: You do not believe in federal funding of education. Should our federal funds be going to build schools in Iraq given the premise that axis to education is one of the bullwarks of democracy?
Above post: “axis” to education should be “access to education” OOPS! I agree Raymond, it is all part and parcel of the same horrendous policy, but I feel a little guilty for going off the subject of HR4681, but then again, it’s all part of the big picture.
Don’t feel guilty. You haven’t committed any of the acts in discussion. At least, I hope not. ;)
As for Philip, rest assured that he will only see the literature on the links you provided as propaganda. Don’t upset his utopia.
PS – that’s Evil Axis to Education ;)
Raymond,
You forgot one in your list above of CIA overthrows, Allende in Chile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol47no3/article03.html
And least we forget who then became president of Chile, our wonderful puppet Pinochet. http://www.trentu.ca/~mneumann/pinochet.html.
Now I’m REALLY off the subject, let’s see, isn’t it all part and parcel of our world domination foreign policy? “We forced a tyrant OUT by the barrel of a gun. Bang bang, out goes the disease. The gun barrel is being used as well to try to eliminate the cancer as it attempts re-infect the recently liberated nation.” I’m not so sure the rest of the world really likes Philip’s “anti-biotic” for disease.
More news on Palestine:
http://stopthewall.org/
That’s the mindset, Robin. How do you stop a rabid dog? With a bigger, MORE rabid dog. How do you stop a war? With a hydrogen bomb. How do you gain control over a strategically placed nation? Install a dictator and train their military in the most reprehensible tactics known to man. How do you make peace in the Middle East? Arm the Israelis and give them billions of dollars to create experimental weapons to use on the Palestinians. How do you stop the Chinese from getting oil from Afghanistan? Take over the country and build a pipeline.
2 plus 2 equals God Bless America
Thomas,
I agree with your assertion that freedom exists, that tyrants merely stifle it. Perhaps a better way to put it is that (in Iraq, for example) anti-liberty forces are attempting to prevent true Iraqis from governing themselves. This is very sad. The US is only there now because of these anti-liberty forces (and obviously rebuilding and improving the infrastructure, which would go much more smoothly without violence and sabotage). My point that growing liberty will make it harder for tyrants to exist is not a matter of changing a monster’s mind. You are dead on correct that a monster remains a monster. But the more they are isolated, the less “friends” they have, the less they are able to quell an increasingly freedom-hungry populace. Now…tyranny will always exist. This world will always be full of evil. That’s reality. But that doesn’t mean we sit on our hands and watch it happen.
Now I have been very critical of foolish US alliances, notably early days Saddam and the Shah (although arguably the mullahs but him to shame on the despot charts), and even currently the Saudi royalty. So you’re preaching to the choir on that! So you are correct that these past allegiances have created present foes. But even then, many Iraqis don’t hold the US currently responsible. I watched a relatively even-handed documentary on a very left wing satellite channel focusing on a blogger from Baghdad. A lot of it was spent just listening in on conversations he had with various Iraqis. He did not seem to have an agenda, but he was instead just documenting the spirit of Iraqis. The comments about the US were roughly 50/50 on the positive/negative end (and most of the negative still acknowledged eager anticipation of the new Iraq, just without much love for the US!). The blogger asked a cabbie, who was heaping praise on the US, “But what about the fact that the US boosted Saddam up to fight the Iranians? Can you really call them liberators when they made Saddam who we is in the first place?” The cabbie replied, “They did what they though they needed to do at the time to fight the mullahs. Who can blame them? Besides, Saddam would have been in power still without them. They did not know he would become such a monster, and neither did we.” The blogger interjected, “But how do we call them liberators now?” He replied, “Now they know who he is, that he must go. He was bad for the US, bad for Iraq, bad for the world. And now he is gone, and for that I am thankful.”
Another assertion I want to address (and I think it is actually a response to Robin) is that it’s true we can’t realistically wipe away all tyrants. Africa is full of constant struggle of cruel dictator replacing evil tyrant in nation after nation. The invasion of Iraq was not simply a liberation mission and was never billed as such. Liberation was part of a multi-purpose attack, involving more “strategery” than even what was expressed publicly. The goals were: Eliminate Saddam Hussein, whose anti-US and anti-western mindset and activities have led to funding of terrorists and development of WMDs (both happened; whether WMDs still existed in complete form is what all the hoopla is about); Confront and defeat Al-Qaeda cells functioning there (much success has occurred on this end); help form democratic Iraqi government (almost complete); provide security against insurgency and terrorist activity (much more intense fight than was expected). Obviously, liberation is a part of this scenario, but not the only goal. And the biggest purpose in creating a democracy is that free nations typically do not breed terrorism (at least not to he degree oppressed nations do). The less publicized “strategery” is in the location of Iraq, and how that would put a choke hold on the other hot spots of terrorism in the region. So, no…this was not a purely humanitarian action. The US, though heavy in resources is not limitless, so obviously we cannot be the whole world’s liberators.
By the way, when did I call anti-US Iraqis ingrates? There is a combo…some that like us, some that based on religious views don’t care for us, some who have been manipulated by anti-western ideologues, some who were loyal to Saddam, some who are loyal to terrorists, etc. But none of them are ungrateful SOBs! They are either ones that we very well should oppose us by their mindset, and then there are those who are misled.
As a libertarian (lowercase), I believe that one of the federal government’s few legitimate roles is to use our national defense to protect US interests where a threat is perceived and strategically eliminate that threat, through the use of military force if necessary. One of the most prominent libertarian commentators is Neil Boortz, who fully supports the effort. I must clarify that I am not a Libertarian Party member. I apply libertarian philosophy, which basically means keeping everything within the limits of the Constitutional powers.
So I am not in 100% disagreement with either of you. Thomas, you and I probably agree more than I would expect, at least philosophically. I just think the conclusions I come to are pretty dramatically different. That’s because I’m right! Don’t y’all know that?
Mary Poppins songs for Philip:
“Just a spoonful of sugar (democracy) helps the BANG BANG medicine go down”
Supercalafragalisticexbeal ATROCIOUS
Even though the sound of it is something quite MALICIOUS
If you say it long enough you even start to BELIEVE IT
Humdiddlediddlediddlehumdiddle BUSH LIES!
1…. “development of WMDs (both happened; whether WMDs still existed in complete form is what all the hoopla is about);” Do you have personal knowledge that NO ONE has come up with, that even your beloved shrub says was misinformation?
2. “Confront and defeat Al-Qaeda cells functioning there (much success has occurred on this end);” Please reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda.
3. One thing’s for sure, there’s Al-Queda there now. “provide security against insurgency and terrorist activity” http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20060531104439608
Humdidledidledidlehumdidle LIES!.
H-A-D-I-T-H-A. (You are ignoring this Philip) A spoon full of sugar helps the CHOKE medicine go down.
Robin,
Don’t make me go all song lyric parody on ya’…
Because I get pretty crazy…
Mine’s punk and metal and eeeevil…
Perhaps when I get some time. I’ll try to check those links from the other posts and the other one here. Checked Wiki, and it is wrong. Remember, Wikipedia is user submitted, and very riddled with flaws! One article claims that “romantic marriage” as opposed to arranged marriage, never occurred in the west until after the sexual revolution in the 60′s. Hmm.
Anyhow, error here is:
“In 2003, U.S. President George W. Bush’s administration alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States, basing its rationale for war…” Oh, dear…we have us a tiny error! Actually, the Al-Qaeda reference had to do with the fact that Saddam’s officials had met with Al-Qaeda’s officials (this is known, but the details of the meeting are not), and the concern was proliferation of weapons, not a conspiracy to attack the US. In fact, on ebig argument against this was that Saddam was not a religious figure, while Al-Qaeda is made up of religious extremists, so they would not possibly work together. But — Kum Ba Ya, share the love — the bad guys have found a way to reconcile in their united hatred of the US and the west in general.
On the first point about WMDs, though: they did exist, which the Kurds are all too familiar with. “Chemical Ali,” Saddam’s charming cousin, got his nickname for a reason. Plus, there is no shortage of documents about development efforts, just no finished products. But certainly it would be wrong to assume that convoys of trucks as well as a cargo plane may have transported anything to the fellow Arab Nationalist Ba’athist regime in Syria. After all, we wouldn’t want to call Saddam or the Syrian hacks “Liars,” would we?
How’s about this one (Three Dog Night, Joy to the World
George Bush is a bullfrog
He’s no friend of mine
I never understand a single word he says
But I’ll help him choke on all of his lies
And he always has some mighty big lies
Joy to the world
All the dead Iraqi souls
Joy to the Palestinians in their land of green
Joy to you and me
If I were the king of the world
Tell you what I’d do
I’d impeach George Bush and end this war
And bring our boys home,
Yes bring our boys home,
Sing it now
Robin,
You have forced my hand, so here it is. I tried to pick a punk tune more familiar to most:
The Ramones, “I Wanna Be Sedated”
20, 20, 24 kook websites to go
The US is the bad guy
Michael Moore says it, to my brain it go-oes
The US is the bad guy
Throw Dubya into prison
Give him electric shocks
It makes me feel so tingly
Inside my Birkenstocks®
Saddam will rule in peace then
The noble ruler of Iraq-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-aq
Democracy is ok, but not for everyone
The US is the bad guy
Iraq was better off underneath Saddam
The US is the bad guy
Neocons and Zionists
Are running the whole world
I think that Netanyahu
Poisoned my pet squirrel
The worst thing on 9/11
Is when US flags unfurled-url-url-url-url-url-urled
Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah
The US is the bad guy
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Saddam’s ok, but Bush lied
Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyahnyah nyah nyah
The US is the bad guy…
:::In honor of the late great conservative punk Johnny Ramone:::
Philip,
I am so very happy that my little ditties “forced your hand” to come out with lyrics such as these: “Neocons and Zionists are running the whole world, I think that Netanyahu poisoned my pet squirrel”. I’m sorry, but you just make me want to puke right now. You are very UNFUNNY!! not to mention heartless and in need of getting a clue. You said somewhere on another link you are busy. I hope you have the time to show those in life you are busy with more compassion than you do those people, the Palestinians, whom we are discussing here. UNFUNNY and VERY DISRESPECTFUL of the subject! Take some time to chew on these pictures and come back with some more possitive feelings to share with me. http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html
No offense is intended, so I apologize for any taken. It was a take on conspiracy theories and the odd but prevalent view that Bush is bad and should be thrown into the depths of the sea but that Saddam is only bad enough to warrant an, “I don’t like him either, but…” statement here and there. Ironically enough, the Palestinians are not mentioned in my parody, unless you extrapolate the Zionist reference to mean them. Rather the reference to the idea that everything that goes wrong in the world is due to either neoconservatives or Zionists. Good heavens, as bad as Communists are, I only blame them for what they are clearly doing or have done, not what every kook in cyberspace uploads to a website (this includes kooks on both the right and the left).
You know where I first saw the term “Zionist?” From a pamphlet some freak white supremacist gave me, under the guise of a Christian leaflet. This is not to say there are not legitimate issues, but I think the lines about neocons and zionists ruling the world are a fair parody. But if it offends, I apologize nonetheless.
I assure you, Philip, that the images on the site provided by Robin are only the tip of the iceberg. They are the images that are never shown on BBC or CNN. When a Palestinian is murdered, CNN shows the funeral procession of men carrying the wrapped body, flags and guns, through the streets. A sensational spectacle.
They do not show you the unsensational body of the murdered. They do not explain that the man, woman, or child was in their kitchen scrubbing dishes, or in their bed, standing on a sidewalk with friends, or sitting in their backyard with neighbors. And even if they were throwing stones (stones?!) at soldiers or tanks or bulldozers, they were answered with bullets and mortar shells. Have you ever seen a rubber bullet? They are about 2 inches long as as big around as a quarter. Fired from a gun at the head they can, and do, kill. Usually, live rounds are fired from M-16′s, usually at the head, usually fatal.
And those are the ones who are killed. Nearly every Palestinian male (and some females), many from an early age, will or has been detained without provocation or merit. They are taken in the middle of the night from their homes, thrown into the back of jeeps, and held indefinitely. They are left in their own feces, insulted, beaten, berated. They are held in this manner until the IDF finds crimes to accuse them of. Their families are not told of their whereabouts. They are usually innocent of any crime, and when the IDF finds nothing, they are released. When they emerge, they are never the same again. Many become more political, many retreat into themselves, broken into compliance.
In light of this, you tell me:
Why is it that so many politicians go to annual AIPAC dinners and applaud Israel? Why did Olmert get so many standing ovations from the US Congress? Why does Israel, with the 54th highest GDP in the world, receive billions in military and foreign aid and loan guarantees from the U.S. every year? What other nation on earth receives such accolades, honors and assistance for the promotion of their systematic occupation and oppression of their native population? There are others, but none so public, so openly and blatantly spitting in the face of human rights and international law, as Israel.
It is true that hate mongers have taken up the Palestinian cause for the promotion of their own agenda. I am not a white supremacist, a bigot, or a racist. I do not hold Jews accountable for the acts of Israel, but rather the responsible. I don’t believe in meeting violence with violence. I have no such agenda, no such hate.
Truth must be sought. It will not fall into your lap, predigested and served with a cold beverage to wash it down. It is often bitter, often inedible, often leaves you hungrier still. It is disturbing, and depressing, sad and horrific. It may leave you numb, angry or suicidal. It may move you to act, to speak, to shout, to make a difference. At the chance that it might have the latter effect, denial of the truth is foolish, and silence in the face of it is criminal.
Wow! I fully expect to hear soon that Americans created AIDS and sank the titanic. America is certainally not perfect, but you guys act like the middle east was a paradise until after WWII, which was when the US got involved. It has always been a place full of tyrants and war. As was Europe until England and the US hit upon the idea of representative democracy. And many countries in Europe only became free after a couple of really big wars in which they were conquored and had foreign powers impose democracy upon them, which is now apparently impossible. After WWII there were only a handful of countries where the word freedom could even be loosely applied. That number is now much larger and America certainlly deserves some of the credit for that.
The main difference for most palestinians now versus 200 years ago is that their oppressors are jewish not muslum.
I am not necessarly disagreeing with many of the charges you make against the US, but when you totally demonize a country which any objective person can see is not all bad, you tend to look like fanatics, and you definately drive away many who might find common ground with you.
The US did not create AIDS. The US overwhelmingly donates the most monies for AIDS Last year Brazil turned down US aid dollars for AIDS because the Bush administration placed the stipulation that no moneys can be spent for prostitutes http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4513805.stm We have also placed other stipulations emphasizing abstinence only programs.
An iceberg sunk the Titanic.
We’re not discussing millenia past in Palestine, nor Europe post WW II. We are discussing the years leading up to the creation of the state of Israel, US support ever since the declaration in 1948, and the continuing bills passed by Congress which choke the Palestinian people. Along the way perhaps another subject comes up such as Iraq but AIDS and the Titanic were only brought up by you.
Wylie,
The Ottomans, for all of their problems, never treated the Palestinians remotely as badly as they have been treated by the Israelis. And it wasn’t 200 years ago that the Ottomans lost Palestine. It was 1917, to the British and French. Then 1948 when it was handed to the Israelis. That’s 58 years, or nearly three-fifths of one century… not 200 years. Don’t re-rewrite history. The Zionists don’t need the help.
Also, you are casting the US as the benign benefactor of freedom. Where? We’ve already named many that lost it because of the US. Name 10 countries that have freedom because of the US.
Also, why are you crying “conspiracy theories” here? We’re merely stating facts. The CIA did, in fact, overthrow democracy in Iran, Guatemala and other nations, and replaced them with dictatorships. The Zionist lobby AIPAC does, in fact, have the support of much of Congress. As much as I wish they were, these are not fabrications.
News:
There IS a Senate bill #2370 which was introduced in March 6th
http://www.cmep.org/Alerts/2006Mar13.htm. It seems no action yet has been taken by the Senate on this bill. Here’s a good article
http://www.mecaforpeace.org/UrgentAction.html.
Thank God it isn’t law yet. It ain’t over til the fat lady sings. There is still hope.
Raymond,
I think I may have found someone I can have interesting dialog and perhaps respectfull disagreement. As I stated in my original post, I do not necessarily disagree with many of the statements made here. I am confused about your conspiracy theory, because I never mentioned such, and it never entered my mind. I will be the first to admit that the US has done some pretty unsavory things. However, they were done in the context of the cold war, when our opponent was doing equally unsavory things. But we could argue forever on whether the US chose the best method to confront the Soviet Union.
You ask me to name 10 nations which have their freedom because of the US. How about all of Western Europe. If the US had sat out that war, do you really doubt that all of Europe would be under the thumb of either Germany or the USSR. Remember, before the US got involved, the only ‘Free’ people left were the British, the Swiss and….maybe the swedes?
Again, the point I was attempting to make, perhaps poorly, is that many people on this blog and certainlly those who post the most often, would rather cut off a finger than admit that the US has in any way had a positive impact on the world. This results in a whole lot of preaching to the choir and very little dialog which could change minds or perspectives.
Wylie,
You said: “If the US had sat out that war, do you really doubt that all of Europe would be under the thumb of either Germany or the USSR. Remember, before the US got involved, the only ‘Free’ people left were the British, the Swiss and….maybe the swedes?”
First of all, Europe was, and is, full of free people. My forefathers were under occupation, but they were indeed free people and because of them I have unviolated freedom today. People who resist occupation are not subdued; they are free people who do not recognize that somebody can take their freedom away!
Second. Yes, I very much doubt that Europe would be under the thumb of either Germany or the USSR. By the time the USA entered the war, Hitler had already decided on the path to his own destruction. The megalomania of Hitler enabled the demise of Nazi Germany, the Russians and, especially, the Russian winter, made it a reality. Nobody single-handedly defeated Nazi Germany and Hitler played a not insignificant part as well!
As a thought-experiment, let’s assume that the USSR managed to occupy all of Europe instead of only Central Europe. They may have had enough resources to hold Central Europe under their iron fist, but if they had to occupy something like three-four times that geographical area and three-four times as many people, then they would be spread out so thin that it would only be a matter of time before European resistance fighters would have been able to kick them out. You seem to forget that the Red Army was not in superb condition by the time they arrived in Berlin, they had suffered heavy losses already and were just as worn down by the war as everybody else. It was a political decision (unfortunate, especially for the Central Europeans) to end the war and let the USSR enjoy occupation of our fellow Europeans in Central Europe as the spoils of war. Due to that decision the USSR could regenerate in realative peace and quiet. They would never have had that peace and quiet if they had tried to occupy all of Europe!
Third. I know that your history books like to portray the USA as the ‘winner’ of WWII, but only people in the USA really believe that the world is/was that black and white. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Europeans (on both sides of the lines of German occupation) did not just sit with their hands in their labs and wait for somebody to give them freedom.
I know this is hard to believe for [Sarcasm]somebody who reads in the official history books that all Danish men are called Peter, and that the most fortunate of them manage to immigrate to the USA in order to start a bakery![/Sarcasm]
I went to school one year in the USA, so I can tell you that this is not just something I am making up – this was part of the reading in “American History” class. A class that was taught by some old, fat, redneck bastard who was of the opinion that “Denmark is a horrible place to live, because that is the first country the USSR will take over when they will try to rule the world!” Quote, unquote (I went to the USA before the USSR split up!). To me, that is very descriptive of the arrogant culture of self-righteous paranoia that way too many US Americans have been indoctrinated with for decades.
By the way, a ‘positive impact on’ or just ‘impact on’ is very different from ‘decisive impact on’ or ‘resulting in’! I appreciate that the USA helped my forefathers during WWII, but that appreciation does not mean that I have to fall on my ass in awe and amasement or that I have to blindly support the government of the USA.
PS: No ‘maybe’ about Sweden. Sweden was (and is) a neutral country!
Wylie,
I refer you to Thomas’ entry regarding the freedom that was won for Europe by the US. It is very naive indeed to think that the US single-handedly won the war for Europe. And very solipsistic.
As for the conspiracy theories that never entered your mind, I beg you to reread your opening statement in entry 55.
You accuse contributors of evoking conspiracy theories to support the false notion that the Middle East was a paradise before the US became involved. Most of us are all too familiar with the history of the Middle East and the absolutely devastating effects that French and British colonialism had in dividing and conquering the region. I’m not saying that the Ottoman Empire was a dream of a situation for the Palestinians either, but at least the Palestinians were allowed a relative autonomy that was reduced after WWI and certainly stripped of it after the occupation was passed to the Israelis.
There is plenty of evidence to support that even before 1948 the Zionists were very manipulative of the situation in regards to land and labor rights. They systematically bought land from absentee landowners and then kicked the Falastin farmers off of that land. They also formed movements to set up industry on these lands and then block the hire of Palestinian labor. This took the land and evicted the Palestinians, robbing them of their livelihoods, and added insult to injury by denying them jobs. This would be the equivalent of kicking all of the Native Americans off of the Reservations, razing their homes, building new communities and industry on the land, and then denying the Native Americans jobs.
And again, this was not 200 years ago, but rather occured within the last 100.
And again, the US has seen to it, at least since Kissinger was in the White House, that Israel be allowed carte blanche in every detail of their occupation and oppression. And again, the US has seen to it that many other countries have been run under dictators, and democracies overthown, so that the US might stay on top.
So, yes, there is some disagreement over the way the US doles out its foreign policy in favor of oppressive regimes.
Today the International Red Cross announces it is significantly upping their aid due to the humanitarian crisis in Palestine. They say this is a short term condition and puts them in a politically “embarassing situation”. They say the US and the EU must reconsider their current policies of withholding aid.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5073400.stm
Meanwhile, Fateh forces attacked the Prime Ministers office and burned the parliament building of Hamas. Things are deteriorating as we speak. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5073548.stm
This situation is grim, very grim. The US needs to do SOMETHING!
God what is the answer to this mess?
The US needs to reverse its pledge to support Israel with $2.34 billion in military aid and $120 million in civilian aid for 2007.
That would be SOMETHING.
Since they’ve turned off the taps to Palestine, then they should turn off the taps to Israel.
Let’s be fair.
and how much military aid has Palestine ever received from the US? If the answer is anything but zero, I’d like to see the evidence of that foreign aid bill.
Raymond,
Read this, realy interesting take on Condie’s policies and the Pape report: http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2006%20Opinion%20Editorials/June/6%20o/Condoleezza%20Rice%20The%20Secretary%20Who%20Came%20in%20from%20the%20Cold%20War%20By%20William%20James%20Martin.htm
And then there’s the threat by Israel made yesterday to assassinate Haniya http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/noticia/en/international-news/israel-palestine–israels-senior-member-threatens-palestinian-pm-?itemId=D36682&cl=%2Feitb24%2Finternacional&idioma=en
Don’t we get mad at people for saying things like this? :)
Woops, it all depends on WHO’S saying it and whether or not they are “justified”. Why would we be giving aid to a bunch of jackals? (Israeli jackals recieve aid while the “portrayed” jackals, the Palestinian people do not receive aid.) Surely you gest!! This is just plain CRAZY!!! We live in a land of CRAZIES and there is no getting out of this house of mirrors. I’m FRUSTRATED, just plain dumb-founded and discouraged. SOMETHING’S got to give and you are absolutely correct, cut off the bottomless well supplying this dragon. But part of me also says to get rid of all the Palestinian leadership which have failed their people and start fresh with the picture of all the innocent civilians who FAR outnumber the loud-mouth Palestinian politicians. That’s just the part of me that wants to remove ANY trace of an excuse and get down to brass tacks. I am not suggesting the Palesinians do not have a right of representation and I am also not saying they don’t have a right to be loud mouths. I just simply cannot see a way of getting around this stalemate. No it’s not a stalemate, that would infer two equals standing off face to face. This is not the case in the mere fact that the Israelis FAR overpower the Palestinians in military capabilities. Get rid of the Zionists, there you go, hog-tie them and lock them up, both in Israel and here in the US. I’m at the total point of rambling now. My question is this, how do we begin to do this as ordinary very concerned citizens? Is there ANY hope or channel to go through in order to try to influence our stupid politicians here in the US?
If ten million citizens joined the Palestinian lobby on Washington, voted against those who supported the atrocities of the current administration and funding Israel’s war machine, then there’d be changes. But our minority voice is lost on its own.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9976
Great article Raymond. Thanks. I noticed an organization, If Americans Knew http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ which picqued my curiosity. Have you heard of Allison Weir? She is the founder of the organization. Here is the Counterpunch article she wrote after receiving death threats after her appearance at Berkley
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir10182003.html WOW, she tells it like it is! The Americans Knew site has a video but I’m having trouble downloading my Media player for some reason. Very interesting stuff. She’s a very well known author British author of mostly history books. She is so outspoken that most of the sites concerning her are ANTI-Allison Weir such as this one
http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/ifamericansknew.html
Well back to the topic of the above post which was the anti-Palestinian act. The Senate still has not acted but it is a moot point anyways because the Treasury Department which releases all funds has Hamas on their terror list which precludes them by American law of receiving funds. There was info on this just yesterday concerning the EU and the World Bank headed by none other than Paul Wolfowitz (ZIONIST). So the way I see it, this anti-Palestinian act is just a big political ploy by the Zionists to dig the knife in deeper because the laws already exist to stop the funds going to Palestine. Icing on the cake with some razor blades as decoration.
(PS today is “Sareera’s” 28th birthday. That makes me 29, oh heck, 39 and holding! I’m getting OLD and I’ll attach any damn number I please to myself thank you very much :) )
OK, I retract my statement about the act being moot. I was thinking only about the financial aspect (yes indeed I AM getting old, a little early dimentia?) The act involves far-reaching restrictions on the Palestinians such as denying Palestinian diplomats obtaining US visas. How the heck are they supposed to attend UN meetings? One big “road closure” attempting to take place right here in the good ole USA. But as of yet the Senate has still not acted.
Yes, Robin. I think the site could be renamed, however. What Americans don’t want to know, will pretend not to know, whould rather not discuss, are afraid to say or simply don’t give a hoot about. That’d be a really long URL though. ;)
but in all seriousness, the more Americans know, the better. But, as they say on Saturday morning television, “Knowing is half the battle.”