In fact it is already here, and I�m still alive :)
Today: Tuesday, 06-06-06, which makes some read it as 666. "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." - Revelation 13:16-18.
With all due respect to Christianity, I don't believe in this, but some believe in it and consider it a part of their faith in the religion. So, just in case you do (or don't), here is a little more about the significance of this number.
Contextually Related posts:
you gotta watch “The Omen” >:>
http://blog.sweetestmemories.com/default.asp?Display=51
Enjoy
Is this another Y@K ??
By the way I liked the day 06/06/06 its easy to write ;)
Next year we will have 07/07/07 which going to be my birthday, maybe that will be a special day for me :D
Great. And let me be ’111′ early (1 year, 1 month and 1 day) in wishing you a Happy Birthday, Haytham :-)
Thanks Haitham,
By the way which is right to write you think Haytham or Haitham
RELAX!
You’ve got it all wrong, 666 is NOT a date, it is the “mark of the beast”. You’ve still got time because it actually is the symoblism for microchips being implanted in everyone!!!! (Or at the very least everyone being identified by a number) Today I plan to rip my social security card to pieces, replace my phone number by using the letters on the button, write my birthdate out in script and never EVER use a number again at the ATM machine (I hope I can get by with this one when I need $20 fast cash to go to Burger King. Woops, that’s TWENTY DOLLARS)
It could also be the number at the base of the skull of any child being born on this date. All doctors and nurses have been instructed to closely examine the backs of all babies born today with luminol (the chemical used by crime labs to illuminate blood traces). Pregnant mothers all across the Bible Belt have rescheduled their caesarian sections. Rather than “PUSH!” mothers are being instructed to “SUCK IT BACK IN” least your baby be born on the day of doom” In case some children ARE born on this day, then Tim LeHaye, the author of the “Left Behind” series has offered to give his services free of charge for exorcisms. In case you cannot reach Tim, perhaps there is the possibility of King Herrod reserecting himself for the day (the second option is the more grim of the two)
But just in case THEY are wrong, and 666 is a date, and John of Patmos was indeed correct in his vision when he gave us Revelations, I will give you here the link to the times around the world http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/. Until the time in EVERY city becomes Wednesday, 676, you should still be out on your front lawn dressed and ready to be picked up. But wait, the Temple Mount has not been fully restored. Go back inside and start ridding yourselves of ANY number in existance. Do your banking during working hours, and please, make sure you ask your teller to erase all records of your account number. Then proceed to the local social security office and do the same. And last, if you did happen to plant a microchip in your pet, remove it now, because your pet dog or cat is carrying the “sign of the beast” and indeed, could be the DEVIL himself!
I know it is not a date, Robin. It’s just people have this phobia and it all related to the 666 coming from Revelation :-)
Thanks for the extra info.
Haytham or Haitham? hmm.. good question… does it matter? They both read the same ;-)
It’s funny how people react. There are so many Christians who will have anything with a combo of 3 consecutive sixes changed. By the way, the website linked is hilarious! Of course, all Bible quotes are in Middle English (sigh). And every little thing is a portent of the end. Maybe they’re right, but not likely. The funny thing is, the significance of the number is not Satan, per se. Rather, it is representative of antichrist and how he will present himself. In the Christian understanding of God is one, but has 3 distinct identities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Perfection is represented by the number 7. The number 666 is a sort of mockery, that being man (lower than God) attempting to take his place. So as 3 sevens would represent the 3 perfect aspects of God’s character in one person, thus 666 represents one person claiming to wield the same characteristics, albeit corrupted. Obviously, Satan is this guy’s sugar daddy, but you get the idea.
So the date is more or less just a fun thing to joke around about. Here in the Bible belt where I live, there is no hysteria! In fact, I didn’t realize it until my wife joked about it a little while ago. Just remember the sage lyrics of Iron Maiden:
“666 / the number of the beast / hell and fire was spawned to be released”
Hey,
I recieved an e-mail from a friend shortly after I got back alerting me that a giant comet was going to hit earth on March 25th and cause major tsunamis world wide. My friend was only alerting me to the hysteria of some in his country. Well guess what, it’s now 6/6/06 and again, some loony tunes have been predicting doom. Way back when the Jehovah’s witnesses predicted the world would end in 1975 due to their calculations of Revelations. One of my closest friends was a JW and in the year leading up to this BEGGED me to convert so she would not have to see my dead body after the vultures picked out my eyes. But just in case I chose not to convert, she really liked my house and was going to move in after I was gone. Come January 1st 1976 my boyfriend mockingly asked her if she wanted to be put out of her misery, in which case he could arrange for her death! Anyways, today’s date is 6/6/”O”6. There’s a ZERO in that date to anyone talking this nonsense.
Gosh, I didn’t know about threes and sevens. Sixteen is actually my birtdate and lucky number. The one and ONLY time I played roulette I chose the number 16. It HIT!!!! I walked away with $180 on a $5 bet. I’m all for sixteens being added to the list of lucky numbers. No, I take that back, it’s MY number and NO ONE ELSE can have it!!
I was being VERY sarcastic and kidding in my above post. This kind of nonsence just tends to bring it out in me. On that note, I plan on having a very relaxing day and also have no plans to see “The Omen” until the 16th of June or July at which time my luck is at it’s zenith!
Robin,
You mean to say you were joking? I already burned my social security card. How ever will I fill out my tax forms?
Raymond,
Now you’re in REALLY BIG TROUBLE. But relax, you did the right thing. You always post hours before me so I’m assuming you might be on the East Coast. If you are lucky enough to be anywhere near New Jersey, there is a small Christian cult called the Restored Israel of Yahweh. They do not pay taxes and their website also gives a very clear definition of the meaning of sixsixsix. You can contact them and ask them how to proceed.
http://www.restoredisraelofyahweh.org/. Conscienteous Christians across America are refusing to pay their taxes. The IRS says there are about ten thousand of them. Not all of them are adherents to cults, some are Catholics! who say that they will give their monies due to charities, where they WANT them to go, rather than to fight an unjust war. Now there’s an idea. I can’t say that I don’t respect them for their committments. If I had a choice I would do the same. That “choice” would come on the same day pigs fly and the lion lays down with the lamb at the zoo! (yes I know it is figurative, but SOME fundamentalists take this literally)
I just reread Philip’s post in which he says the number seven is perfect. One plus six (the individual numbers in my birthdate) equal SEVEN. YAHOOOOOOO! My lucky number is perfect. Darn good thing I was born on one of the best days of the month. Others might include the seventh itself and the twenty-fifth.
On another note, I just read today (again) that some thought President Reagan was the anti-Christ, because his full name, Ronald Wilson Reagan, had six letters in all three names. (I think the number three, for the three names might also be significant). He was our first ever publically awowed born again Christian. To add to the conspiracy, their home in Belair had the street address of, are you waiting?……SIXSIXSIX!!! Not to worry, Nancy would have nothing to do with ANY suggestion that her husband might be the “anti-Christ” so (I presume after she consulted her astrologers) called the city and had the street address changed to SIXSIXEIGHT!!! Isn’t it WONDERFUL to be President of the United States, you not only can topple governments at will, you can also change your address.
Update on the news: The US backed Somalian government just fell to the Islamic rebels http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-somalia6jun06,1,4870695.story?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true
Surely the end for all is near.
My prayers to all dying in the face of war.
Just another day!
Robin,
Actually, Jimmy Carter was our first avowed “born again Christian.” He sort of popularized the phrase, in fact. But I remember hearing that stuff about Reagan. Very funny! Megadeth’s vocalist used to say that. Of course, now HE is a “born again Christian!” This despite how many of his records were burned by the same. :-)
Actually, 16 is the number of the creature, who is like the beast, only less intimidating. He will only rule the Republic of Moldova and will require 4 squared to be imprinted on all of his countrymen, but will allow “4-squared” t-shirts for those squeamish about needles.
Somalia has a government?
Philip,
AAAAAAAAAA! Are you trying to tell me my lucky number is up? Perhaps I could bribe someone at the hall of records to change my birthdate to the seventh or twenty-fifth.(Nancy’s still alive, perhaps she still has some pull) (Notice I am still writing numbers in block letters rather than risk the chance of anything untoward happening to me, that is,at least for the next few hours just in case the “date” theory was correct) You’re right, Carter came before Reagan, I goofed on that one. BUT Carter was not a right wing republican which has become the face of born-again Christendom. It was so hard for me to remember back to those days. Carter was also a whole lot more private about his religion and less willing to preach it to others, especially taking care for it not to slip into his position as President. So you are correct on one hand, but the public persona of being a born-again Christian was much more Reagan’s forte than the quiet, unsanctimoneous Carter. (Reagan was the first leader, according to my reading, that ever referred to another country as “evil”. That is certainly a religious term more than a diplomatic one)
(How did we get off on this tangent, oh yes, I wanted to say something about the actual subject of this post without being silly): This kind of sixsixsix conjecture doesn’t quite sit well with me on a personal level. Now if someone wants to talk about big brother and George Orwell I could hang with that. But try to scare me into ANYTHING and I’m going to come out of the box kicking and screaming. I didn’t like it when I was a teenager with my friend, and I don’t like it now.
Here’s some more interesting news: the world’s most expensive cell phone number was just auctioned off for charity yesterday in in Qatar. It sold for ten MILLION Qatari riyals. What was the number? You’ve got it, all sixes http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/23/mobile_number_sold
Why did I say the “Somali government was toppled”? Well, I was quoting the above article which said just that. But you got me thinking and I found this article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/06/AR2006060601321.html which says among other things “In April the United States tried a different tack, inviting clan and political leaders to Kenya for talks and to enlist their support in dismantling the al-Qaeda safe haven. But fighting broke out as soon as the leaders returned to Mogadishu, making it seem as though one hand of the U.S. government didn’t know what the other was doing.” Another article refers to a transitional government in place outside Somalia in Kenya. Put two and two together and I think you get the drift. Now I’m REALLY off the subject. And I am very unversed in African matters.
I am now watching closely the international date line, because even though the date thing is a rumour, there are actually people out there who have stock piled food. Oh lord, will it be safe for me to use numerals for numbers tomorrow? I’ll be really mad if I have to throw out my credit cards. And I’m having a hard time figuring out how to go to the market without buying anything with a bar code. I guess lettuce and artichokes might work.
More or less, I was thinking of the Somalia entry in the New York Times Almanac. Under government, instead of, say, constitutional republic, it has an entry unique to all of the nations. It says, “none.” Eek.
Uh-oh! I forgot to avoid bar codes today! All I did was buy my wife some hazelnut chocolates, so maybe I’ll be okay.
“666/the number of the beast/666/the one for you and me”
I knew the apocalypse was beginning when a local radio station was playing its usual 5 o’clock off work garble of stupid movie quotes and junk, and interspersed was, “Let he who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast…”
every one has his own beleif, but iam sure you will change your mind about ur faith when the day will come :) but i hope its not too late!
Indeed it is a truism, “everyone has his own belief”. You also say “you will change your mind about your faith when the day will come”. Is this a judgement passed upon me personally, or does it go out to all? I can’t really tell who it’s going out to, Christian, Moslem, Jew, Hindu or any other. Are all peoples of the world supposed to lie on their deathbeds and all of a sudden realize they have either been “right or wrong” in who they worshipped and they are either going “up or down” in a short while, they only have a few minutes to get it right? I’m sorry, but I don’t buy into this thought process. The day I personnally lie on my death bed I pray that I can go to my creator with the clean conscious of never having threatened anyone into believing in my religion. If a religion has to rely on hellfire and brimstone to make their point I want nothing to do with it. Eschatology (end times philosophy) has a VERY long history and I fear has an equally long future. You cannot prove this open-ended “rapture” ( http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html) theory wrong because it is all in the process of waiting. But you can certainly choose to live your life in a less fearful mode and reach out to others of different faiths in ecumenical acceptance. That the “rapture” mode of thinking has become the face of Christians to others around the world is NOT a peaceful occurance. It is one more “war of religion” used to garner “God” to one side and deny his availability to others unless they come around to your way of thinking.
I woke up this morning having slept well, despite having gone to bed prior to midnight in my timezone. I will also have a great day and tomorrow knowing that I will NOT use the threat of eternal damnation towards another single human being should they choose not to believe in Christianity as I do. And when each and every friend of mine who is not Christian dies before myself, I will still be alive to know that they have the same loving God waiting to accept them into his arms.
Today I am back to using numbers and am as always, looking forward to the rest of my life and wishing peace to all mankind regardless of religious difference.
This is more superstition than Christianity. There have been many attempts to ferret out the date of the Day of Judgment; various sects have been founded on the certainty that the world would end on such-and-such a date. They ignore the explicit caution that this sort of divination is impossible: “Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour…” (Matthew 25:13). These sects were not easily discouraged, & simply reviewed their calculations, discovered “errors,” and revised the date. This process is repeated as often as necessary.
Besides, some early texts have the number as 616, and the number (whatever it may be) is usually considered a coded reference to the Roman Emperor Nero. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast_(numerology)
Imagine, getting themselves worked up into a lather of sweat over a typographical error.
Although I am back to using numbers, 6666666666666, and continuing my EVERYDAY prayers for peace for all persons of every faith or lack thereof, I have not retired from my satyrical tendencies involving “rapture mentality”. Here is the funniest sight I have found involving this thought process. It is from the same “rapture” link I gave above. It is pictures of the various types of mansions that you may hope to inherit depending upon the intensity of your committment to the second coming. If you are in for a good laugh, and hope for a better castle on the other side, here it is http://www.raptureready.com/photo/mansions/mansions.html
Real estate agents turn in your licences, give up your commissions, and REPENT!
I’d pretty much be happy with a 3000 square foot country home on about 3 acres overlooking the gulf (sans hurricanes). I wonder what that would take? Doing a weird Christian website for free? I’m in, dude!
Philip,
Good try, but I think your attempt will at best only qualify for the featured outhouse, maybe the ruins, but most likely only a cave which is not even pictured on the cave. A better idea might be to prepare your own “rapture shelter” and stock it well. This whole rapture episode is supposed to take seven years (oh the ideal number). They already have sister websites set up in cooperation to hande the overload on their sites after the rapture. Think I’m kidding, check it out http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq403.html
Certainly this is all a joke. Do you realize how many members of our current administration adhere to this belief? You might be conservative but is this really who you wish to hang with? Here is an excellent transcript of a CBS interview concerning the relationship between Bush and the rapture raptors
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/05/60minutes/main598218.shtml You seem to not think they’re such a sane bunch.
Ah, c’mon! Deathway is brilliant, and we will eventually take over the world. Even Bush cannot achieve our diabolical plot!
There is a BIG distinction in the whole “end times” crew. I will only focus on the premillennialists, who believe in a rapture (immediate removal of all believers from earth) followed by 7 years of intense tribulation with antichrist as the prominent world power. The rest I won’t bother with.
Unfortunately, there is no shortage of dime store prophets declaring that they know when it will happen. Most of these are cultists in one form or the other. The rest are just wacky. The authors of the Left Behind series wrote an interesting piece of fiction based on prophecy. They state that it is intended to recreate a plausible scenario in which such an event happens in today’s general technological and political environment. Despite some cheesy writing and ad nauseam preachiness, The story structure is pretty good. But the camp I fall into, and most fall into, is that of, “It could happen today; it could happen 500 years from now.” Personally, I am largely unconcerned with it all. It makes for great fiction, due to the tremendous amount of layers…spirituality, intrigue, deception, the supernatural, war, cults of personality, etc. But the bigger risk to people is not that the rapture will come and that they will be “left behind,” but that they will die some other way, as people do avery second of every day in this world.
While most of the people who are into the end times hype are Bush supporters, how focused he or his cabinet are on the issue is a matter of personal belief and will vary from non-belief to full-force follower.
In other words, if I ran for president against, say, Barbara Boxer (oh, man…), I would likely get Tim LaHaye’s vote, Gary Bauer’s and even Jerry Falwell’s. But that doesn’t mean I am lock step in line with their views.
Although Bush is vocal about his faith, he is hardly “religious right!”
These make for some interesting reading:
http://www.counterpunch.org/hill01042003.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook02222003.html
http://www.reopen911.org/armageddon.htm
Do I personally think Bush is a rapturist? God, let’s hope so because some think HE is the anti-Christ and he will be gotten rid of in the war to end all wars!!
He is one BIG pandering jerk-face with absolutely no morals. But the fact remains he is MAJOR friends with these looney-tunes and he has met with both Tim LeHaye and Hal Lindsey. Gosh, some Al-Quada guy supposedly met with an Iraqi official in Germany as one of our proofs of terrorism ties to Iraq. Our shrub openly courts these fruitcakes. Common, not ALL conservative republicans support the overtake of their party by these end-timers. Ever heard of Christian-Zionism? Seems you think Israel does some pretty bad stuff so how do you justify that partnership? Get real, you can be a conservative without hanging with these guys.
Check out the Council for National Policy, very secret. Get Religion out of MY bedroom and MY government!!!
Another offering for the day: http://www.raptureready.com/republican.html
This little ditty tells you why Jesus would vote republican, but please, my point is to consider the source.
Fair enough! There are enough nutty people for both parties, it seems. There are even more oddballs in the alternative parties, so if you’re really off the deep end, well, there is a place for you. To quote the ever-brilliant Hank Hill:
“Look, a fringe candidate. Poor misguided bastard.”
PLEEEEEZE read this http://www.catholicintl.com/noncatholicissues/politics-protestant.htm
Now you see what I mean?
If you do read the above, please note, I am not trying to suggest the alternative Catholic end-time theory, something even I as a Catholic do not put any stock in. I am NOT an end-timer and believe we all need to be focusing on the here and now and our own treatment of our fellow man while we have the KNOWN chance to get it right. Here’s another article pertaining to Bush appointments http://www.alternet.org/story/18259/ Whatever your own personal choices may be, I also have mine and believe I have a right to make those choices. The article is titled “The Christian Taliban”.
Uh-oh, Robin. You sent me to a left wing propaganda website for information? Hmm:
“The rule was first implemented under Ronald Reagan but revoked during the two Clinton administrations. The rule prohibited federally funded family planning providers from even discussing abortion with their clients.” Gasp! You mean my tax dollars will not pay Planned Parenthood to badger third world women to get abortions? This is Taliban-style, alright. Man, oh man, is that terrible. But there’s even more!
“Bush’s order reflected the views of those at farthest reaches of the Christian right, zealots who saw any means by which women controlled reproduction as unbiblical:
‘I would like to outlaw contraception…contraception is disgusting — people using each other for pleasure.’ -Joseph Scheidler, Pro-Life Action League
‘I don’t think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like — and if you have babies, you have babies.” Randall Terry, Operation Rescue’ ” Um, wait, though. Didn’t the above statement refer specifically to abortion, indicating that birth control is not restricted, either in word or deed? Is the author being deceptive? Certainly not! Besides, look at this next proof that W is planning to force the nation to become 100% Christian:
“appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of Population Affairs. A Texas pediatrician, she is a longtime proponent of abstinence as the only acceptable means of birth control. Dr. Golden declared that henceforth the department would stress “abstinence-only” as the solution to unwanted pregnancies, not just for teens, but unmarried adults as well.” Clearly a dangerous radical.
“While in congress Coburn tried to force condom manufacturers to label condoms as ‘ineffective’ against the spread of sexually transmitted infections. ‘I will challenge the national focus on condom use to prevent the spread of HIV,’ Coburn said upon his appointment.” So he wants unrelaible disease prevention mechanisms labeled as ineffective? The monster! But, wait? Isn’t he standing up to big corporations?
“contrary to anti-choice propaganda” Clearly this is an objective article.
” * Scientific data on condom use, long available on government health Web sites, was removed and replaced by sermons on abstinence and alarmist propaganda that exaggerated the risks of condom use.
* The phrase ‘reproductive health’ was expunged and replaced with the vague terms ‘related clinical preventive health services’ and ‘related preventive health services.’
* Links to non-governmental family planning resources were deleted.
* Web sites at the Centers of Disease Control and National Institute of Health were cleared of scientific studies and materials relating to abortion and condom use.
* At the CDC results from a peer-reviewed study showing that education about condom use did not result in increased sexual activity or sex at younger age, were deleted from the Web site.
* The NIH’s Web site was cleaned of FAQ’s on condom effectiveness and a sexuality education curriculum called ‘Programs that Work.’ ” No need to cite sources nor offer further information regarding the specifics of the allegedly deleted info.
” ‘God gave governments responsibility only for infrastructure and defense,’ according to an article by Rev. Bob Enyart, pastor of Denver Bible Church. ‘If government limited itself to its two just functions, thereby getting out of education, health care, farming, etc., it could better defend America. … Christians who carefully study the Bible are best qualified to teach the world how it should be governed.’ ” Yet another radical suggesting letting the Constitution be the framework for the federal government. How archaic.
” ‘We are driven by the belief that people of faith have a right and a responsibility to be involved in the world around them. That involvement includes community, social and political action. Whether on a stump, in print, over the airways the Christian Coalition is dedicated to equipping and educating God’s people with the resources and information to battle against anti-family legislation.’ ” I am no Christian Coalition member, but dare I say… these people are actually suggesting that people of faith should actually get involved in important issues? Everyone knows we should shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and hide in a corner somewhere.
“Mainstream Christians share secularists’ concern over workings of Bush’s Christian Taliban. Speaking at the National Press Club last year, Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice President Rev. Carlton W. Veazey condemned the ‘back-door attempts by the Bush Administration to radically alter policies and practices concerning abortion, family planning, and sexuality education to conform to extreme views.’ ” Uh-oh. Looks like I’m not a mainstream Christian. In a way, I’m not, I suppose. I do listen to heavy music and have long hair. Oooh, dangerous. But to oppose abortion…to believe that babies are being killed in the process…now THAT’S extreme.
“We need to reconnect with a fundamental ingredient of America’s strength: the separation of church and state. That wall of separation has for over two centuries spared Americans ftom the kind of religious strife witnessed in Bosnia, the Middle East, Northern Ireland and Afghanistan.” But, but, but…. I thought the premise is that America has long been subject to religious dogma and that we need to be freed of it … but I thought the US had grown increasingly irreligious… um… wait… now I’m REALLY confused.
You need to go back to the article and read the last four (the last one being one sentence) paragraphs. The first is saying: Mainstream Christians are concerned that fundamentalist Christians are taking their RELIGION and injecting into GOVERNMENT policy concerning family planning. The second says: In our country mainstream Christians have been practicing tolerance towards the fundamentalists and that has led to the fundamentalists having leeway to do whatever they can get away with. Paragraph three: We need to reconnect with the dogma of separation of church and state which is written in the constitution and for over two hundred years has worked well (notable exception was prohibition, another Christian interference). And the last sentence is: “Mixing religious dogma and public policy always creates an explosive compound — and it always blows.” This is also really not the forum to debate abortion, but I might just say, if you don’t want one don’t get one. Full stop (as Raymond likes to say)
You did not say anything about the first article which was entirely the more important of the two.
I was entirely incorrect in invoking Raymond’s name in the above post. He is not in on this debate and I was wrong in bringing up his name. I like his use of this method and that was why I used it, not to invoke his name in my statement of belief. Apologies very much Raymond for interjecting you here. I should not have done that.
check this out:)
http://wedadf.jeeran.com/archive/2006/6/57944.html
Dear Wedad,
I read your post, “checked it out”. Thank you for offering it to us. I am not here to debate you and do not have any wishes to undermine your chosen beliefs. Instead, I wish you well and peace as you wait. May God grant you serenity in your every waking moment as he does me each and every day. God bless you.
Robin,
1) How do you define “mainstream?” Liberal? The majority of practicing Christians in the US consider themselves to be conservative. The word “mainstream” here is deceptive. It is based entirely upon the far left worldview of the article’s authors.
2) Religious faith was behind our system of government. Religious faith has always been part of our governmental development. It has not dominated it, but guided the course, so to speak. This has been the case with Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln (who I care nothing for), all the way up to the present. Even the high exalted Bill Clinton often quoted Scripture, although he frequently badly misquoted it. John Kerry in one debate said it was his faith that made him take certain stances on the environment and on poverty (although earlier in the same debate he stated that his faith was private and thus could not influence his stance on abortion).
3) I challenge you to find the phrase “separation of church and state” in the Constitution. Feel free to copy and paste it in a reply.
4) Prohibition was not the only case of religious influence on the American political system. It was one of MANY. Ever heard of abolition?
5) “Mixing religious dogma and public policy always creates an explosive compound — and it always blows.” This is a statement, alright. A statement by the author who has already stated that he is opposed to Christians being involved in the political system. So it is meaningless.
6) “This is also really not the forum to debate abortion, but I might just say, if you don’t want one don’t get one.” This is one of the crassest, cruelest statements I have ever heard. This from someone who anguishes over the deaths of innocents? Get real.
Regarding the other article, I just now read it. It is long, so I will try to be brief. First error: “Tevi Troy – an Orthodox Jew who, in public, once referred to his non-Jewish opponents as “goyim” (a severe and vulgar epithet)” Actually, “Goyim” is the Hebrew for the commonly-known term Gentiles. I am a “goy.” Second, this writer is typical for a leftist agenda-based writer: the only sources he cites are other leftist authors. In essence, “You can believe what I say, because Michael Moore says it is true.” Convincing? Nah. I don’t even trust conservative writers who rely on other agenda-based sources. The author neglects to mention that the faith-based initiative also involved, and was hailed by, Jews and Muslims. Oops! Did he forget a detail? Not likely. Purposefully omitted … yeah, that’s a bit more likely. Er, ah … and a bit dishonest. He does mention the likes of Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn and their standard cronies in a negative light. Admittedly, these guys should probably be dropped into the ocean with the proverbial millstone around their necks. But they also are not representative of evangelicals in general. His conclusion, finally, is a cocky claim that his own view of the end times is accurate, and that all other theories (religious scholars and theologians be damned) must be soundly rejected, more or less because HE doesn’t like them. Okey-dokey. Dude says they’re not scripturally sound. How does he feel about the doctrine or Purgatory? Yeah, well, you know, it’s tradition, so … screeeeeeeech! Hit the brakes compadre! You are approaching a “Bridge Out” siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiign.
Don’t try to trip me up with stuff like that … I eat these guys for lunch.
1) How do I define mainstream? You seem to be asking for my personal definition so here it is, or rather what it is NOT. It is not “evangelical”. It does not seek first to convert by using scare tactics. It is NOT a literal translation of the Bible. And it COULD be what you refer to as liberal because it is more tolerant and less judgemental of other faiths. Some examples could be Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopalian, all churches with an established history.
2) Our founding fathers came from England and were seeking to RID themselves of religious persecution. If you know anything at all about their religious beliefs you would know that they were NOT religious in nature (I am not talking about anyone other than those who framed the Constitution) Here is an excellent article written by a professor of theology. Perhaps he is “Liberal” (I couldn’t call him personally to see if he is the “L” word) but he IS a theologian and an academic. http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm. Lincoln was NOT a founding father so he is out of the frame of the discussion. It’s interesting you say you don’t care for him. Hmm, he brought us through the civil war and assured our country remained unified AND abolished slavery, good things in my book.
3) The above article addresses the question of separation of church and state. It is also notable that in that article you will find that church councils at that time and up until recently favored separation of church and state.
4) I should have said “one” notable exception but I certainly did not imply it was the only one. 5)I agree with the “mixing religion and politics” statement. You say ” This is a statement, alright. A statement by the author who has already stated that he is opposed to Christians being involved in the political system. So it is meaningless” Well have you ever considered that not everyone is Christian and that even if they are they might not agree with a particular view? Have you considered some people don’t believe in religion at all? ANYONE can be involved in the political process, but we are talking about interjecting religious beliefs into laws which affect all.
6) Abortion? I am a pro-choice Catholic. Yes there is such a critter http://www.cath4choice.org/ I do not wish to argue other than to state my belief which does not affect you in anyway because as I have repeatedly said, religion is best used as a moral compass. I do not pass judgement on others in this area.
7) Lastly, I asked you to ignore the Catholic part of the piece. But since you did not, here is more information on Christian Zionism http://www.christianzionism.org/churchesN.asp
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1288/8812031.htm
I am Liberal and proud of it. But if you met me you would know I’m about as conservative as you can get in my own behavior. But that is MY behavior which I choose for myself. I am “liberal” in my openess to the differences of others. The bottom line here is that we do not agree on this subject. The difference is that you are seeking to force your beliefs into politics which WILL affect me whereas I believe you are free to use your religion as your own moral compass and already have the freedom to practice in your own personal life. Please correct me if I am wrong.
(God forbid I left anything out)
I am sorry here for going completely off the subject of 666.
Religious discussions tend to go on tangents.
1) If you don’t take Jesus’ words as literal, why believe in him at all?
2) The non-religiosity of the founding fathers argument is questionable. Most references to this are based in their dabbling in a sort of generic “deism,” but most took on full Christianity in the course of their lives. The principle of deism, though, were not contradictory to Christianity nor faith in general. It still established a sort of universal moral code, just without the sectarian basis.
My dislike of Lincoln is based on a number of things. One, he shut down all newspapers that voiced opposition to federal invasion of the Confederacy. Two, he overran the Constitutional right of states to leave the union. Three, he did NOT abolish slavery (read the ENTIRE Emancipation Proclamation and see if it shows universal abolition or abolition only in locations not under federal control). If the War was about slavery, why were the two top generals anti-slavery? And why did as many as 90,000 blacks volunteer for the Confederate forces? Four, he was a racist, even going so far as to suggest that if slavery was ever dissolved, that the freedmen should be exported to South America. Five, he was central to the process of dissolving state sovereignty. Don’t like the Patriot Act? Blame Lincoln.
3) Separation of church and state does not and never did mean elimination of religious input in governmental affairs. It meant that no state church can be established and that people may practice their faith freely, regardless of what it may be (with the only exceptions being those who, say, practice human sacrifice).
4) Noted.
5) Yes, and atheists, Christians, muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Ba’Hai, etc. are ALL welcomed to offer their insight.
6) Fair enough, but you stated, “If you don’t like abortions, don’t get one.” Thankfully, I’m glad that my biological mother, pregnant with her 6th child–this time by a married man–didn’t think of it simply as an individual decision, that maybe there was someone else at risk there. Thus I was adopted and became a “neocon.” Maybe she should’ve reconsidered? ;-) But my little parody of “I Wanna Be Sedated” was oh so cruel, yet a statement comparing a child’s life to a choice of TV programs was rational? I would say it was pretty low. And yes, I know there are pro-choice Catholics. There are pro-life Wiccans. It’s a strange world.
7) Sorry…I thought you mentioned to check it out. My bad. The Christian Zionism thing is, though, interesting, because despite his assertions that Bush is a Zionist, he accidentally mentions that Bush is being pressured AGAINST continuing to support Palestinian statehood. So which is it?
Finally, I have no desire to force my beliefs on anyone. Well, I believe in freedom, liberty and a strictly Constitutional government. So maybe I do wish to force them! But my faith, I desire to spread and encourage others to discover and reap the rewards. It will never be private and locked in some dusty old church, though. You will never see me on a street corner holding signs written in middle English. Those guys would never let me join the party anyway! However, you might just see me ever-so-subversively reaching out to some of those oft-ignored and disenfranchised folks in the black eyeliner and Marilyn Manson t-shirts, and I might just let my “religion” (I hate that word) loose in such a way that even they may say, “Whatcha got there? What’s in it for me? Is there really such thing as truth?” And when this “little Pilate” asks, “What is truth?” I may tell him/her that there is such a thing.
One aside: abortion is not a religion issue, per se, despite the heavy role in the debate played by people of faith. We will not debate it here, but if you ever experience such a debate with me, I will never even mention God nor the Bible in the course of it.
1) By literal interpretation of the Bible I meant literal interpretation of every single word, down to Adam and Eve in the garden only a few thousand years ago. Not to get into a major debate on this one, the Bible was written in different styles, some of which were allegorical and meant to teach morals rather than just tell a straight forward story.
2) Moral and lawful are two different entities. Although all laws are based on the social contract which seeks to protect man and his basic rights, not all morals seek to limit themselves. Laws which eminate purely from religious ideology seek to limit the rights of non-believers.
You are a Southerner, so no doubt you have a certain view of Lincoln. The civil war was fought at it’s core to keep the country united. To blame Lincoln for the Patriot Act is really a stretch. Maybe when activists from the Bible belt seek to change the laws in California I will vote for cessation
3) The definition of church and state reads “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech”
otherwise known as the Establichment clause. The definition that Jefferson himself intended is best embodied in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church and reads as such “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html. The context of the letter written to Jefferson was the fact that the Baptists in Conneticut were under persecution by the Copngregationalists. This letter which Jefferson responded to was NOT written as a plea to inject the Baptist’s religious beliefs into law but rather the opposite, that they be free to practice their religion and not have laws passed against them!!
4)Noted
5)Insight, yes, Pass laws straight out of their religious text, no. This is in violation of the Establishment Clause. A “toe in the door” is part of a body.
6) Pro-choice Catholic and Wiccan mentioned together. I’ll take that. http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm
I too “welcome” others, the difference might be that I do not care where a person attends or does NOT attend church. Only that we might connect in unity.
In an attempt to clarify my position: (And to bring the entirity of this discussion to it’s proper location)
I have never intimated that you need to keep your practice of your faith confined to four walls with a cross on top. On the contrary, you have the Constitutional right to practice your faith as long as it does NOT violate the Establishment Clause. Go down to skid row and round up all the wobegons for all I care, the Salvation Army is quite good at this, BUT they have gotten into some deep doodoo over discrimination and the use of government funds to promote their religion http://www.nyclu.org/salvation_army_pr_100405.html
If you truly do believe that religious entities have a right to inject their beliefs into public policy ponder this: Islam is the fastest growing faith in the US. Yet a poll out today reported by MSNBC reports that 44% of Americans support curtailment of Muslim civil liberties. Of those responding negatively towards Muslims, most were Republican. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6729916/ Now if you believe in freedom of expression in politics by Muslims, just imagine that “hijab” becomes a law or in the case of Judaism no driving on Saturday. You see Philip, your safety is in what you percieve to be your numbers. As a “Liberal” I do not wish to join with anyone who proposes ANY religious interjection into law. ABSOLUTE STOP!! (copyright still pending :) )
Lest my reference to “wobegons on skid row” be misconstrued as perjorative, let me make one thing clear. For more than twenty years I have worked with the homeless of my community and also helped establish a home for homeless families as well as maintain friendships with many friends I have made along the way. I also donate regularly to homeless causes both monetarily and with my own time. DEEDS, not prostelyzing.
You also must realize I was married to a Moslem and am currently married to an atheist. If I were not comfortable in my own faith and instead had the dire urge to influence others in their choice of personal belief, three beautiful daughters would have never been born of these unions. Now that I have laid out my own personal reasons, I leave it at that.
Fair enough.
Let it be noted, though, that Robin hates the homeless! JUST KIDDING!
The Salvation Army is great. I was their eastern territory graphic designer for 3 years. The “discrimination” suits are ironic, in that the Army does not hire homosexuals for clergy positions nor for any other direct faith-involved positions. The conflict is this: certain governments do not allow discrimination based on sexual orientation. However, non-profits are generally exempt from such rules (obviously the Army could not very well hire, say, a Jewish man as a clergyman and should not be required to by law). But when distribution of funds for charitable programs is involved, things get sticky. The thing is, the Salvation Army gets results leaps and bounds above secular programs, so the question arises, “Do we only fund less-effective programs in order to be politically correct?” The best solution is to get government 99% out of charity and let people who are good at it (like the Salvation Army) do it all.
I admit my Lincoln thing was a stretch. It was more allegorical, but probably a little excessive! Truly, though, Lincoln was not who history books paint him to be. Here is a short synopsis by one of my favorite columnists (and probably the closest to my political thinking that I have found).
As a Southerner, though, shouldn’t I be something of a conspiracy theorist? Look at the countless war crimes committed against Southerners (black and white) by union forces, most notably terrorist William Tecumseh Sherman’s famed “March to the Sea.” And then there was Reconstruction.
I’m boring, though. Married another Christian, though she’s about as psycho as me.
Here is what the ruling in New York stated concerning the NYCLU:
“October 4, 2005 — In a mixed decision, a federal judge has refused to dismiss claims by the New York Civil Liberties Union against various City and State social services agencies for the improper use of government funds by the Salvation Army to convey religious messages in their social services programs in violation of the Establishment clause of the Constitution. US District Court Judge Sidney Stein also ruled that the NYCLU may proceed against the Salvation Army with claims of retaliation against employees for filing claims of religious discrimination.”
The “tricky” was using public funds for religious prostelyzing in violation of the Establishment Clause and the discrimination in hiring suit is left open for further legal claims (I know I just repeated myself but the first in quotes is drawn from the site)
I am in full agreement, faith based initiatives should NOT be the realm of our government. Just as “faith based laws” should not be.
And on a side note, I am also a Southerner by birth(my entire family still lives there) and have a picture hanging on my wall of my great-grandfather in a civil war uniform. It is a part of history, he was my ancestor, and it is interesting to me. It does NOT mean I am sorry the North won, but it also means I recognize the tyranny the South was subjected to. History. Interesting.
But as for 666, my daughter just had a micro-chip put in her puppy. Should I be afraid? Paranoia is NOT my gig!
I am not sorry the US is still united (I do not plan on driving for secession anytime soon!), but I do lament how it came to be held together. Besides, it was the Republicans who were behind Reconstruction!
Microchipping a puppy, though, is the mark of the beast, but since a puppy is a “beast,” it’s ok.
Hey Philip,
How’s the weather in your neck of the woods? Are you anywhere near the hurricaine?
Weather is fine here, just a few random bands of clouds and occasional mild rain showers. We are in the clear from Alberto (thanks for asking!). I do not want to see another 2004 (Ivan) or 2005 (Dennis). 2 direct hits from major hurricanes in 10 months got a wee bit nerve-wracking! Fortunately, Ivan, while pretty much obliterating our neighborhood, left our property unscathed, save for a lot of tree damage to some beautiful live oaks. Dennis, while smaller, was dead-on (the eye passed over us), and had 125 mph winds. It did some roof damage (no leaks, but it blew off enough shingles to warrant a new one paid for by insurance, and we were only a few years out from needing to replace it due to age and wear) and banged up our fence and shed, but insurance paid for it all with only a $500 deductible, and we never even saw that, because my dad and I replaced the roof ourselves.
I just hope no major ones hit here (nor elsewhere) this year. There is nothing like watching update after update on the Weather Channel as some Cat 5 monster approaches (although they always seem to die down before landfall…even Katrina was only a Cat 3 when it hit New Orleans.
With 666 iminent and all these horrible natural disasters (as if we haven’t gone through hurricane cycles before) I saw the news LATE last night and thought you might be in some deep water or holding onto your hat for dear life. Here in CA we wait for the “Big One”. Whenever a “little one” hits you start thinking at the very first rumbling, is this one IT. It is NOT fun. Been through a several and would not recommend them to anyone, rapture ready or not.
From the above rapture ready site I offer this, the RAPTURE INDEX.
The site claims that while it is by no means a rapture indicator as to time, it is “the dow jones” of leading indicators. This is REALLY a hoot: http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html I honestly cannot believe that someone sat down to come up with this one.
“The increase in the frequency of Hurricanes has experts wondering if there is a connection to climate change.”
I can help them with this answer: No. The current cycle began in 1995 (Hurricanes Erin and Opal left us reeling then) and is slated to continue for 10-20 more years. Realistically, though, they are clueless. For all we know, there will not be another hurricane anywhere on earth for the next 50 years. It’s not global warming, it’s not climate shifts, it’s not the “birth pangs” preceding the end times. It’s a relatively short period of heightened activity that has gotten a ridiculous amount of news coverage (except for Ivan, which — despite being the 3rd costliest hurricane in US history — seemed to be forgotten). New Orleans was hit by a hurricane almost identical to Ivan. The problem was not that it was some cataclysmic hurricane. It’s that it was a typical bad one at the time of landfall, and the Big Easy’s “Dear God please don’t let that one hit us … … … … … whew! We’re ok, so let’s forget there is a danger” attitude left them vulnerable to what amounts to an above ground sea. Spending my whole life about 200 miles from there, I got used to that scenario! But the Chicken Littles of the world, the rapture-watchers being among the most visible, look at it as some unheard of natural disaster portending the coming disaster. Not that I believe it won’t eventually happen, but that there is no use trying to calculate it. Pointless and stupid. These people could spend this valuable time building homes and fixing roofs in Louisiana and Mississippi. You know, doing the things God actually told us to do, not things he told us not to try to predict.
Just when you think you’ve kind of got the hang of this rapture theory, there’s more. See there is an organization VERY active in Israel called the Temple Mount believers. Both are based in biblical prophesy of the end times and both are at the extreme end of “odd”. Here is a site, the Temple Mount Institute that you should check out in detail. The two ideologies closely interelate to each other, depending on each other to fulfill the end times http://www.templeinstitute.org/ Check out the “red heifer” which supposedly was born in 2002. But I guess that wasn’t the right red heifer because it needs to be three years old in order for the whole thing to work out. The whole point when this is being brought up vis a vis the political sphere, is that there are players of both beliefs who wish desperately to hurry it along by themselves making prophesy happen. This is really scarey stuff when you stop to consider it. I just imagine people sitting around and licking their chops every time some percieved event occurs that fits into the end-time philosophy. I’m sorry, but I don’t WANT the world to end (just my motherly instinct acting up) and these people actually are looking forward to it, even willing to help it along. This is SICK stuff, waiting on the edge of your seat to be wisked up in a white cloud and all those people who wouldn’t listen to you burn in hell. What a loving philosophy :)
Wow! That’s quite a read. I don’t quite know what to make of the red heifer! I saw some documentary in which a very Orthodox rabbi was asked about certain Christian organizations donating to efforts to reclaim the Temple Mount and rebuild the Temple. The interviewer asked him if the differences in views regarding the Messiah make it a strange relationship. He just sort of shrugged and said, “Why should it? They say it will bring Messiah. We say it will bring Messiah. Perhaps we then have the same goal.” So it is rather remarkable, albeit odd. Again, I too say, let it happen. Nothing will speed it along nor slow it down, so in the meantime, do some good.
The irony behind the “Holy of Holies” is that they will have it separated via a curtain designed to keep it off limits to man. Of course, as Jesus died, the veil was torn into, signifying the end of the separation between God and man.
One thing, though. According to premillennial rapture theology, those left on earth are not condemned. Rather, they go through a period of intense tribulation, during which a certain “remnant of Israel,” signified by the number 144,000 (likely meaning an unfathomable number rather than an actual total) will not only follow Jesus but will sort of lead the charge of a huge awakening of sorts. Millions will draw to God, while millions more will curse him, eventually pledging allegiance to the antichrist and accepting his mark as their identity. Of course, this will be a conscious decision, not an accidental acceptance of a tainted debit card! At that point they will have doomed themselves. But missing the rapture would not be condemnation. It would just suck in a big way.