We all condemn the parents of the kids signing the Israeli bombs “with love” falling on Lebanese civilians and innocents, but we didn’t see the parents while doing the same.
Worse, here are matured Jewish men signing bombs, again:
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Photos caption: Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men dance with Israeli soldiers in front of a mobile artillery unit positioned in the northern village of Fassuta, near the Lebanese border, July 24, 2006. REUTERS
Dear Arab/Muslims/Christians/Lebanese/Palestinians…
Die with Love. We are dancing on your dead bodies!
Yours,
Ultra-Orthodox Jews
Received the death gift.
Regards,
Now, convince us that these Jewish radicals are not less terrorist than ‘Bin Laden.’
I didn’t want to say this, and I don’t think it should be believed so, but, if Islam is tagged with all the names one can think of, how can you convince the people who sees this now that Judaism is not less violent than other religion(s)? If at all there is a violent religion!
Also, how can you convince Arab and Muslims in particular all around the world that this is not a ‘holy war’ for Israel? And if it is so, why can’t it be ‘holy war’ for the other side? And why Jewish war is ‘holy’, but others war is ‘terrorism’?
And, what is the message they are writing here? I don’t think they are dancing because it’s end of war, but because they are warmongers, blood suckers who are sending their signed bombs to civilians to “Die with Love.”
This is a documented, signed ‘with love’, terrorism, by the Israel terrorist war-machine!
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to MAD with ANGER (the last comment from the previous post)
2. I do consider myself lucky that I live in a state which cares for its citizens. I hope you too will live in such a state one day. I am not cynnical, I realy mean it.
4,5,7,8,9,10 Israel hits the Lebanon insfrastructure,bridges,fuel tanks to make it hard for Hezbollah to operate inside Lebanon – to disrupt Hezbollah?s communications and resupplies. Israel bombs TV annenas to prevent broadcasting Al-Manar – Hezbollah TV and it is a part of weakening Hezbollah. Israel imposes air, see and ground blockade on Lebanon to prevent resupply of Hezbollah and to prevent smuggling the kidnapped soldiers out of the country. It is all a part of the war on Hezbollah, nobody wants to harm the Lebanese civilians intentionally.
So the hard question is how would civilians evacuate themselves in such circumstances. I admit I do not know the answer, I am not familiar enough with the geography and conditions of Lebanon. I can think about just leaving by foot, I think people can go some 20 – 40 kilometers a day. Or to drive by car as far as yoy can get and to continue from there by foot. The fact is that it is possible – there are very many refugees in Lebanon who did managed to flee the South.
I admit the Lebanese civilians have hard times these days. But Israel does not do all this in order to hurt the civilians, it does defends itself by fighting Hezbollah.
Unfortunetely, in a war you cannot prevent civilian casulties. Are you aware of any war in the modern history, in which there were no civilian casulties ?
Israel has to fight this war with Hezbollah to defend its Northern border.
Ok, comments are not moderated here (so far), so be nice otherwise I’ll switch back to moderation and kick some asses.
…but you know, those are “low class, uneducated, have their pizza delivered across the border and one of them actually is a member of the Israeli Peace movement (aren’t they all?)” bla bla bla.
Haitham, my advice is you delete the posts that try to derail derail the discussion or poison it, like talk of Israel being a democracy, a free country…etc (what on earth do those arguments have to do with adult men showing their real hate?)
This is weird to me, because a lot of Ultra Orthodox Jews that I know personally are very much anti-violence.
Nice going Haitham – this might even more of a hit with the colorful types you attracted for the former photo. I mean, they say kids steal the show but for your new fans orthodox Jews are at least as attractive, and they fit their world view even nicer than a pigtailed little girl. If you’re really lucky you might find some photo of orthodox Jewish kids, your pageviews will skyrocket!
Apparently your explanation to these photos is that Jews (or at least Israeli Jews) simply enjoy killing Arab/Muslims/Christians/Lebanese/Palestinians. If I may suggest another explanation, could it possibly be that the people who sign these shells really think they are going to the same Hezbollah soldiers that shot so far over 2000 rockets on them? Maybe you should give that idea a thought too.
to Paul
I see some problematic way of proving things in your comments and the posts in this blog. The prove goes as follows : Haganah looks like the settlers, so they are the same as the settlers. If Haganah looks like the settlers it proves me nothing. Can you support your claims about Haganah with some objective reference ? Have you any objective sources to suport the claims about the ethnic cleansing ?
The same prove is applied in this and the previous posts. Despite the fact, that the girls write on the shells “With love to Nasralla”, it can look as if they would write “With love to Lebanese children”, so it is as bad as if they acutaly wrote “With love to Lebanese children”. This method of proving things is dubious, and I do not know who can be convinced by it.
Another dubious method of presenting things by you is to exaggerate.
“… Irgun … and … Lehi … went on to have a HUGE influence in Israel.” HUGE influence – is an exaggeration.
“the far right “Likud” party” – is rather funny exaggeration today, after the disengagement from the Gaza strip, when the Likud actually evacuated the settlers. So how about the “lebensraum” ?
Your claim “Haganah … gave birth to the vile Irgun.” – is misleading.
From the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun :
“Irgun was founded in 1931 by Avraham Tehomi, following a largely political and ideological split with the Haganah … Irgun differentiated itself from the Haganah by disassociating from the socialist ideology and the prevalent strategy of Havlagah, or restraint.”
Haganah condemned Irgun, on several occasions cooperated with them, on several occasions had armed clashes with them and on some occasions helped British to arrest them. Did the Lebanon government do anything to restrain Hezbollah ?
And the final question – how all this digging in the historic events before 70 years is relevant to today’s fighting of Israel against Hezbollah in order to defend its Northern border ?
Haitham,
If you have looked at any pictures from WWII or other major wars of our century, you would know that writing messages on bombs is done by cultures the world over. Why does it make it worse if Jews do it? Is it because of who the target of those bombs are?
I am sympathetic to all those who fall under fire of bombs from every side, and am also aware that just because an act is done by many, doesn’t mean that action is validated.
Just remember, the Allies and the Axix powers signed bombs, committed war crimes, and killed innocents. War is hell, and there will always be those who revel in it.
Remember the children in Palestine dancing in the street when the news of 9/11 reached their ears? Children do as their parents do….and both sides of this war should be shamed.
Haitham, I could post my exact same post from your previous propaganda topic, instead I will ask you one simple question. Does this “Israel terrorist war-machine” as you so many times like to call it, have a right to exist or not ? What do you wish will happen to this state ?
Sabbah, ironically they carry the flag of the crown. Is it that the british are behind this? They want to colonise the whole world again is it.
One simple question to the viewers. We have seen the real face of israeli’s here. The whole israeli population is behind this. Hezbollah is only fighting for their people. that is fraction of lebaneese population.
Who are extremists on this planet? Time and again they preached hate.
It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?
What if the Hitler would have won ? Would the world be a better place today ?
If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?
Hostilities against muslims all over the globe, and random detentions of the muslims around the globe is it been incited by jewish network to mobilise hatred and demonise islam.
Statements of Prime Minister of Israel that Iranian president and other middle east leaders fate would resemble that of Saddam Hussein. Why are our leaders calling for cease fire.
How long should our generations suffer under the shadow of the gun?. If that is what they want it better to fight for our right for our land.
Resolution 1559, How did the United Nations mobilise such resolution and why should middle eastern nations comply with a resolution when the international law is not abided by the other parties. We are not obliged to comply with the laws. There has been no referendum of acceptance of any international treaty or law that we are aware. It is imposed by martial law on the people of palestine and the middle east.
Roy from Haifa,
I’ve answered this trillion times, but no problem in repeating it.
Yes, Israel has the right to coexist peacefully with its neighbors. To do this, all U.N. resolutions should be implemented, starting from 242 on words (instead of going into many details). Until then, Israel is an occupation and all under occupation has all rights to resist and defend themselves (as Bush like to put it).
To Haitham
Was “the disengagement” (the Israili evacutation from the Gaza strip) not a part of implementation of 242 resolution ? So why once Israel starts implementing UN resolutions, it receives more attacks ? Why does Hezbollah not leave Israel in peace and attack it after the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 ? Why do the Palestinian militants in the Gaza strip fire Qasam rockets on Israeli towns after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza ? Why do the Palestinian militants attack Israeli position on Israeli territory, kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers ? Both Hezbollah and the Palestinian militants simply do not let Israel to implement the resolutions and force Israeli army to return to Lebanon and Gaza.
Vadim from Haifa,
Is the ‘apartheid wall’ another part of 242 that Israel is implementing? Are the killer of Huda’s family are ‘clean hands’ when compared to PoW with ‘hands full of blood’ in the Israeli jails? Then why Arabs don’t have the right to punish the criminals just like the Israeli does? Did the occupation of Gaza end with what you call ?withdraw?? What about borders? Sea? Sky? Underground? Was it also librated from occupation? Did Israel withdraw from West Bank as well? Or you think Gaza and West Bank are two separate countries? Did killing of innocents in Gaza as well West Bank stop with ?withdraw? from Gaza?
“IF” Israel wants to implement the resolutions, believe me, if they come tomorrow and say that they are ready to resolve this occupation and abed to all U.N. resolution, believe me, all, 99% (including me) of the Arab world and Muslim world will stand by Israel side and help Israel do so and live in peace. Only IF!!!!!
Give me a break!
Haitham, “99% of the Arab/Muslim world” includes those who elected Hamas to Palestinian government? It includes Ahmendnijad and his voters? Nassrallah and his supporters?
Yes, the border is closed in Gaza Strip. This is because the Palestinians, instead starting to build their independent state following Israeli withdrawal, instead used the territory to fire Kassam rockets into Israel and prepare suicide bombers.
I agree there are many Arab people who will accept Israel within 1967 borders. It seems that most Palestinians are not amongst them. Just reading the comments to your posts demonstrates that, let alone Palestinians’ actions.
There you go… you judge, you give yourself the right to decide what is good and what is bad for others and what they should and should not do, where they should live and who they should elect, then you come crying asking why they are resisting us!
Learn to trust and live in peace. That?s all what I have for you, Nir.
to Haitham
I think the Nir’s comment related to the fact that Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. See the link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Beliefs
So if most of the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they also do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. Is not it a true conclusion ? They knew what they voted for, did not they ?
Vadim,
My understanding of the reasons for Palestinians voting for Hamas was not that Palestinians do not recognise Israel’s right to exist (although there will be some that do feel that way).
I remember reading something that the US financed a Fatah propaganda campaign. This was widely viewed as the US interfering with the Palestinian’s democratic process so they rebelled by voting the last party the US wanted to win, Hamas.
This is the only article I could Google and it’s a bit one-sided but I’m sure if you look there are more.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article135054.html
As far as I’m concerned, both parties involved in this horrible mess have committed enough atrocities against the other to relinquish any right to claim the moral high ground in this situation. They’re both wrong, they’ve both failed their people and those that are suffering are the innocents on the ground.
Vadim from Haifa,
Not true!
Palestinians voted for Hamas not because they don’t recognize Israel, but because they lost all hopes of peace with Israel, so they preferred to give a chance for someone who might help them in their daily life rather than the never answered promises by the previous corrupted government, which done nothing by the way. Even though the previously elected government was pro existing with Israel, but Israel made it impossible for Palestine to exist.
On the other hand, why should Hamas recognize Israel? Does Israel recognize Palestine so that the Palestinians will have to recognize Israel?
Haitham,
Those people are messianic Jews from Chabad. Their Rabbi is dead but they believe that he is still alive and that he might come back any minute as the Messiah. Crazy people indeed.
I am not surprised that the Israelis (that think that quarreling with you in your blog thinking it might change your mind about anything) did not bother to add some facts before shouting.
Peace,
Hanan
Hanan Cohen,
That’s great. I trust all what you said, but this does not answer my question.
Isn’t this picture similar to those of Bin Laden and his gang in the sense they are not less violent-religious? Then, why is it only Arab and Muslims who are called violent? How can you convince humbles that this is not a Jewish ‘holy war’ like Bin Laden’s? Etc, etc, etc…
I really liked Vadim’s “guidelines” for Lebanese civilians on how to run away from the battle, unfortunately this happens:
1- They run in a convoy of cars and get hit by Israeli bombs (Marwaheen= 23 killed).
2- They run in a minivan and get killed (read Independent and Guardian frontpage Monday)
3- They go to ambulances and get killed.
So, Vadim..I am afraid your guidelines are not good enough with a blood thirsty army, like the one you have.
Hanan,
Your information about the messianic Jews is very interesting. There are a WHOLE LOT of crazy people involved in this current situation. If I just closed my eyes I could almost imagine myself in the Dark Ages with all the “craziness” being spoken about by so many. Here is the States we have the End Time Christians whom I am sure if given the chance would also be signing these bombs. Yesterday in the LA Times there was a very interesting article about the massive support, moral and financial, Jerry Fallwell is throwing behind Israel with a fund-raising drive with an aim of ten MILLION dollars all because they are awaiting anxiously the “rapture” when they will be carried up to heaven. Yet these same “crazies” say that the “jihadists” are crazy. I say anyone wanting to “destroy” the other side completely is speaking nothing but massive annialation and craziness. There have been several wonderful comments on the first part of this topic asking for cooler heads to prevail. Yet how can these “cooler heads” prevail when Lebanon is suffering like it is? As an American simple everyday citizen I am BEGGING Israel to stop their actions in Lebanon. Enough is enough. We’ve seen what you can do, nearly totally destroy an entire country in twelve days yet these messianic “crazies” are signing more bombs. God have mercy on the world and bring some sense of sanity back to the Middle East. This is nothing less than Dante’s Inferno that we are witnessing and the perpetrator is no one other that Israel. If you are in Israel yourself, I pray you are safe, as I pray all children of God are safe. Enough death and destruction alreaddy. Enough. Peace to you and all.
Batir, I?ve not met a single Israeli who is blood-thirsty. Certainly, there are crazy people in any country, but their number in Israel is not larger than in other countries.
Certainly, errors occur in any army in any war.
Please see the NATO mistake with Kosovo refugees during its bombing campaign in Kosovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign
Aiyn,
You said: “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?”
I mentioned a “healthy revision of the Holocaust” not denying that the Holocaust took place, because that would be just as stupid and ignorant as denying that World War II took place. I used the word ‘healthy’ because I think it is just as big a violation of historical facts to monopolize the Holocaust as a Jewish ordeal as it is to deny that the Holocaust happened.
What I was pointing out was that:
1. Many more European ethnicities than European Jews were mass-murdered in the Holocaust.
2. The Holocaust was Europeans killing other Europeans, not only German Nazis killing German and Polish Jews and definitely not Europeans killing Israeli citizens (before that citizenship was even created).
3. Jews, among others, were picked out because they did not fit the ‘ideal’ ethnicity, not because they were Jews.
4. Treating anti-Semitism as the main problem completely ignores that other ethnicities, especially the European Roma population, still suffers under ethnocentric nationalism in Europe.
5. Today’s prejudice and intolerance against Muslims in Europe (and around the world) is not a new problem, but a relatively new symptom of the old problem (ethnocentric nationalism) that has not been adequately addressed.
You ask: “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that?”
I think a better question than asking why ‘Europe hated the Jews’ would be: Why is one/any group of people intolerant of another group of people?
Jews were perceived to be different (actually they were not different enough, so the Nazis demanded that Jews, homosexuals, and other groups had to bear a sign for differentiation purposes). That Jews happened to be one of the victims is more of a coincidence, because if there had been a sizeable minority of Muslims, Australian Aborigines, or Asians instead then they would have been the ‘perfect’ menace to society.
Ethnocentric nationalism, regardless of whether it is European, Muslim, Arab, US American, Zionist etc. is based on promoting ones own group by singling out (an)other group(s) that can be attributed with anything that can be ‘sold’ as ‘undesirable’. Breeding intolerance is a very powerful tool for the propagandist trying to root support for a nationalistic cause.
Of course, it also works with playing on exaggerated victimization which explains why many Zionist supporters try to monopolize the Holocaust, because mentioning that an equal -if not higher- share of the total European Roma population perished in the Holocaust just does not do much to promote the Zionist cause!
The main lessons we have to learn are that ALL ethnicities are susceptible to ethnocentric nationalism and that we all have to learn to accept that other people have the right to look, think, speak, or dress differently.
‘Accepting’ is the key word, because ‘tolerating’ differences will only allow us to live next to each other, but not among each other!
If we could all accept that we are all people with different ethnicities rather than ethnicities in a given hierarchy then we would be able to eradicate ethnocentric nationalism.
If you put a black, a white, and a yellow infant in a sandbox then, after a brief instinctive caution, they will start playing together as equally accepted play partners. They only reason why they loose this instinctive reliance on each other regardless of their ethnic differences is if adults have ‘conditioned’ them to do so!
I partially agree with Haitham,
First, yes, we should not stereotype. I have personally met many peace-loving Rabbis and observant Jews. Certainly, there are bad apples among all, but, I am sure, most Jews would not approve of the clown acts we see in these pictures.
My only concern is as follows: double standard in the treatment of Arabs and Jews in the media. An almost complete lack of similar types of analysis, which aim to educate people and refrain them from making generalizations, when it comes to Arabs and Muslims. For example, were these Imams in the pictures, how many Western analysts would have made any effort to offer decent analysis? Not many I think. Similarly, when we see pictures of Palestinian and Arab kids dressed as militants etc., how often do we see an accompanying analysis that explains the overall context of the scenario and its effect upon certain people? Not often. Instead, what we see are immediate generalizations of an entire people and their dehumanization. But such is hardly ever the case when it comes to the Israelis. So, there is a clear double standard in the Western media. Some Arabs dress their kids as militants simply because they are inherently evil and because their religion is evil, while Israeli parents – and their kids – who cheerfully write messages on weapons used to target civilian localities, and rabbis who do the same, do so not because they are inherently evil and because their religion is evil, but because of the complicated effect war tends to have on certain individuals etc. We are asked to understand the context of the situation, and a whole load of other factors, when faced with such pictures putting some Israelis in a bad light. This is done so that we avoid stereotyping. But a similar approach is almost completely lacking when it comes to the Arabs. This is the only qualm I have and I think that most individuals, whatever their religion, or the lack of it, and whatever their race, would, hopefully, agree with this as this double standard, in my view, is readily visible on CNN, BBC, Sky News, Fox News, and a load of other Western news channels.
Finally, Nir’s comments border on the absurd. He said that “Haitham, ?99% of the Arab/Muslim world? includes those who elected Hamas to Palestinian government?” I am not sure how he concocted the figure of 99%, but what about the majority of Israelis who went on to elect a war criminal as their prime minister, Sharon, a man who alone has more blood of the innocent in his hands than Hamas and Hezbollah combined. What about the previous war criminals elected by the Israelis, who massacred and ethnically cleansed the indigenous people of Palestine in the previous wars? Of course, we are told not to stereotype the Israelis, but the doors are open when it comes to the Palestinians, fully ignoring what has been happening to them for decades. He talked about the border of Gaza being closed and said this was because “the Palestinians…used their territory to fire Kassam rockets into Israel and prepare suicide bombers,” conveniently omitting all of the gross human rights violations committed by Israel immediately after the Palestinian elections in the Gaza Strip. Whatever Palestinian militants did, quite miniscule compared to what the Israelis did (and continue to do), occurred quite a bit after the Israeli provocations, killings and terrorism. He then said that “most Palestinians” do not recognize Israel. I find it amazing that an occupied people are being asked to recognize their oppressor?s right to exist while the occupier has always been unwilling to recognize the existence of the occupied people. Be that as it may, the Palestinians have generally recognized Israel and even Hamas has offered to hold negotiations with Israel for a permanent and peaceful settlement, notwithstanding their old rhetoric. Which side has been consistently avoiding peace talks and constantly provoking others through meaningless terrorist acts? The Israelis.
Aiyn,
If you please, I would like to take issue with a few of your statements/questions.
1. “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?” In my opinion this is really not an issue to be brought up considering the circumstances AND the fact that no matter how you fudge the numbers, be they smaller or larger, Hitler DID carry out a program of genocide not only against the Jews, but also the Roma (gypsies), Jehovah’s witnesses, homosexuals and pow’s of different ethnicities. To try to deny that this happened is just making a VERY contraversial and easily refutable statement. Perhaps a better question would be “Why do the Arabs have to pay for the holocost? (the reason given by the victims and their supporters, a documented proof) NOT did the holocost occur which only puts one in the camp of the deniers who raise questions as to their own credibiltiy in other matters.
2. “What if the Hitler would have won ? Would the world be a better place today ?” All I can say to this statement is what my teenager likes to say all the time, AAAARE you kidding me!!!
3. “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?” Again, bringing up a painful past which is used as part of the justification for the need for the state of Israel.
This kind of question will get moderate Arabs NO WHERE.
Aiyn, you are on shaky ground. So shaky, in fact, that I am tempted to just turn away and not bother.
“The whole israeli population is behind this.”
WHAT??? Nonsense. One of the biggest pro-Palestine activists in my area is an Israeli-born Jew. THINK before you unleash stereotypes.
As for your comments on the Holocaust… What can I say. My great uncle was five years old when the Nazis dragged him and his Jewish mother to Babii Yar. They shot her first, and she bled to death on top of him. Covering him with her body. She died. He managed to survive, but carries the scars his whole life.
And when I see such hateful ignorance levelled against the likes of my great-uncle, I have to say, this is no better than the barbarism you are accusing others of is alive and well in your heart.
Ok so I have read all these different entries on this blog. Yes it took a while. And I have come away with some questions and some other stuff:
I did some research and I don’t see anywhere in history (at least the last 4000 years or so) where there was actually a nation or kingdom of Palestine. As far as I have seen that armpit of the globe has been ruled for eons by everybody BUT the Palestinians. So what gives? Yes Palestinians have lived on those fig tree covered dunes for so very long, but you have never ruled your own roost. If this is true…then why not use that as your call for nationhood. Don’t say that the jews came out of persecution or whatever with their nation in 1947. They have lived on the very same dunes as you guys for the SAME amount of time. And yes they have had a nation there (two actually) in the past. And yes you guys used to get along with one another. Instead of religious wars…you used to have good old fashion war about land and resources. What ever happened to the good old days?
No I am not an Israel supporter. They are commiting many evils too. My point is, both cultures have resided in these lands for equal eons. So both peoples need to stop playing “I was here first” and get along for god’s sake.
Speaking of god…somebody said it earlier…I think he was the doctor…he said that your/our gods would be “ashamed” of the way we are acting to one another. So true. We as humans should really think twice before we do ANYTHING. It MIGHT save a lot of grief. Then again maybe not.
One more thing. I have noticed a great deal of comparison between nations. I have learned a great deal of your respective nations from some of these blogs. Thank you. But I must say, one thing I did learn, is a new appriciation for MY nation. With some of these blogs I have gained insight (briefly at best, but still enough to suppliment what I already knew) what some life/politics/etc is like in Norway, Lebanon, Italy, Israel and Palestine. Let me tell you…with no offense to any of you…I am glad that I am where I am.
I hope that when all is said and done this region, and I hope it comes soon, that all peoples are left with the highest degree of Liberty that god can provide for humans upon the Earth. And that goes for my socialist friends of Norway and the rest of the EU too. Liberty is the one truism that god has bestowed upon humans. It is up to us to use good will to keep the torch afire.
Be free to be you. Let me be free to be me.
I am very sorry about what is happening.
I have developed a great dislike of the Zionists.
There is a great chasm of news that we get in the West and what is the truth.
Again, I am sorry! I am crying about the number of children killed (let alone innocent civilians) by the Israelis (terrorists).
Just wondering: What are you trying to prove? That there are morons in Israel? Tell news. If you find as many jewish morons in Israel as arab morons in the western world, I maybe could somehow understand your point. All I can see here in Europe are arab morons screaming “Death to Israel”. That’s indeed very convincing.
@Aiyin:
“It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?” – Come to Germany, look at the archives, visit the KZs, talk to witnesses. Yes, there were witnesses. There are even survivors.
“What if the Hitler would have won? Would the world be a better place today?”
The jews would be dead, and I think the arabs would be under German occupation, or dead, too. Bright prospects, right?
“If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?” – One lesson you should learn: Question the media, question religious or idiologic leaders, question simplistic solutions and simplistic claims of guilt, question stereotypes. Are you able to do that?
“Hostilities against muslims all over the globe, and random detentions of the muslims around the globe is it been incited by jewish network to mobilise hatred and demonise islam.” – Well, just compare the so-called “peace demonstrations” in westerns cities of the supporters of Hezbollah to those of Israel, and you will see who is really propagating hostility, death, mass-murder. It’s the poor, always victimized muslims who call for another holocaust (though they claim that the first one never did happen), who call for nukes on Israel, who chant “Death to all Jews”. I haven’t seen one demonstration where there were chants like “Death to all Muslims” or “Nukes on Palestine”. And that has nothing to do with jewish networks, thats just the way your(?) fellow muslim brethren behave all over the world. The even claim the Quran tells them to do so. Not to talk about the terrorist attacks your brethren are executing day by day in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, in Sudan. Not talking about Hezbollah fighters hiding in civilian areas, wich leads directly to a loss of safety by international law for the civilians.
what about the slaugther that arabs carrying out in sudan , killing innocent black people , cause they black and not beliving in islam ?!!!
what about the holocaust of the armeni people by Ottoman Empire !!!!!
what about all the beheadings that going on in iraq!!!!!
why you not showing those pictures ?????!!!!
Very Sweet… The rabbis bless the bombs before launch
good for a laugh
Haitham,
You are right but it is not important.
It is not important who is “right” or “wrong”. What’s important is how to achieve peace. How calling Jews or Muslims all sorts of names will help peace?
Please, I am waiting for your thoughts here: http://itoot.net/crisis/2006/07/25/hate-helps-the-israeli-government/
Peace,
Hanan
hi,very interesting discussion.I think that the problem begans when people believe that they are the ‘elected people’.It’s the same problem with the u.s.a.
Ok, All you viewers realise that you have suffered a lot under germans and europeans. Please do go through the video of “why middle east is bleeding”. The jews instead of being greatful to the arabs, they occupied their lands and started ethnic cleansing all the arabs. Building another berlin wall. Building concentration camps like guantanamo bay. Building reservations of palestinians. They are doing all the things what a facist society does.
From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists. The bottom line is everybody has the right to exist, and israel keeps on occupying territories, abducting civilians and putting them in palestinian jails. If you say you have lost patience, so do the arabs. They have lost patience. Why is that israel is immune from all the crimes it has done. And why should we suffer.
To all the arabs and the middle east viewers. If you wish to live in reservations like american red indians as someone said on this blog. You need to wake up.
Aiyn,
You said: “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?”
I mentioned a “healthy revision of the Holocaust” not denying that the Holocaust took place, because that would be just as stupid and ignorant as denying that World War II took place. I used the word ‘healthy’ because I think it is just as big a violation of historical facts to monopolize the Holocaust as a Jewish ordeal as it is to deny that the Holocaust happened.
What I was pointing out was that:
1. Many more European ethnicities than European Jews were mass-murdered in the Holocaust.
2. The Holocaust was Europeans killing other Europeans, not only German Nazis killing German and Polish Jews and definitely not Europeans killing Israeli citizens (before that citizenship was even created).
3. Jews, among others, were picked out because they did not fit the ‘ideal’ ethnicity, not because they were Jews.
4. Treating anti-Semitism as the main problem completely ignores that other ethnicities, especially the European Roma population, still suffers under ethnocentric nationalism in Europe.
5. Today’s prejudice and intolerance against Muslims in Europe (and around the world) is not a new problem, but a relatively new symptom of the old problem (ethnocentric nationalism) that has not been adequately addressed.
You ask: “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that?”
I think a better question than asking why ‘Europe hated the Jews’ would be: Why is one/any group of people intolerant of another group of people?
Jews were perceived to be different (actually they were not different enough, so the Nazis demanded that Jews, homosexuals, and other groups had to bear a sign for differentiation purposes). That Jews happened to be one of the victims is more of a coincidence, because if there had been a sizeable minority of Muslims, Australian Aborigines, or Asians instead then they would have been the ‘perfect’ menace to society.
Ethnocentric nationalism, regardless of whether it is European, Muslim, Arab, US American, Zionist etc. is based on promoting ones own group by singling out (an)other group(s) that can be attributed with anything that can be ‘sold’ as ‘undesirable’ and who can be blamed for everything that is not perfect. Breeding intolerance is a very powerful tool for the propagandist trying to root support for a nationalistic cause.
Of course, it also works with playing on exaggerated victimization which explains why many Zionist supporters try to monopolize the Holocaust, because mentioning that an equal -if not higher- share of the total European Roma population perished in the Holocaust just does not do much to promote the Zionist cause!
The main lessons we have to learn are that ALL ethnicities are susceptible to ethnocentric nationalism and that we all have to learn to accept that other people have the right to look, think, speak, or dress differently.
‘Accepting’ is the key word, because ‘tolerating’ differences will only allow us to live next to each other, but not among each other!
If we could all accept that we are all people with different ethnicities rather than ethnicities in a given hierarchy then we would be able to eradicate ethnocentric nationalism.
Aiyn,
“From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists.”
It seems to me that you are pissing up the wrong tree here. If you look a little bit closer, then you will realize that what Robin, I, and many other people are doing is what too many of our forefathers forgot: To question ourselves and our societies!
What we do different than the German and other European fascists is that we challenge authority instead of just remaining silent and hoping for the best. We exchange our opininons about what is wrong in our societies, because we have learned from the Holocaust/WWII that these kind of atrocities can only happen if a majority blindly follow without questioning.
We are trying to counter the number of people within our own societies who have forgotten how to be critical. Some of our our societies are more self-critical than others and as you will see we are not the ones denying that there are problems and that atrocities are taking place.
What have you done in your society? Have you questioned any of the Muslim/Arab/whatever doctrines that are just taken for granted by your peers? Have you tried waking up you neighbour to make a small difference or are you just pissing in the wind about all the things that other people should be doing differently?
Some take charge and do whatever little they can while others just sit and whine about what everybody else is not doing. Your shit stinks too. Don’t deny it, deal with it!
PS: Haitham, please delete my double post (#40), for some reason my first post seemed to be lost in cyber space, so I posted it again.
Well, Haitham, I completely agree with you that this is a problem of trust.
Obviously I don’t expect to change your opinion any more than you will change mine, what I do hope to do is to explain the way things look from this side of the hill.
The main problem is that at the moment most Israelis simply do not trust that Palestinians, or at least most of them, really wish to live in peace side by side with Israel. In the eyes of many Israelis, the election of Hamas following the Gaza withdrawal, the firing of Kassam rockets out of Gaza and the recent Hezbollah attacks are taken by them as indicators that the struggle is not about the 1967 lines but about Israel’s existance at all.
Now, you offer different views of these events and these views are exactly the reason I read Arab blogs in the first place, instead relying on mainstream media. But the irony is that posts like above, who seem to me as portraying Israelis as murderers by nature, don’t exactly help build my trust that we can be accepted in the Mideast soon.
Again, I’m not trying to argue or convince, just trying to give an impression of how this situation looks like from here.
I am not justifying for holocaust. Sure we have equally criticise our leader for doing little to safegaurd our interests our people need to be educated. But we are being involved in a vicious circle of oppression, seclusion, sanctions. That most arab nations, african nations cannot even survive under the rule of the gun or nuclear war heads. May be our leaders are considerate that we have seen a tolerant middle east until now. Our reactions are only based on actions of oppression and ethnic cleansing being carried out by israel and its allies.
From Robin to all the viewers, if you really have questioned your goverments, we wouldnt have seen massacres being carried out everywhere in your name or in your people names. Just by mere organizing a donor conference or live8 what have u achieved. You can organize many conference and benefits, to flourish your business interests.
We do not want any charity. Ask any african, that they just want their nations back and their right to excercise universal rights as all other people do. Ask any palestinian, Ask any individual around the globe. I am sorry my friend if it pisses you off, that shows that you are not ready to accept and debate and question your own actions or your own government actions that you have voted for.
Well, first then ask your governments not to create trouble in our countries. You might have elected them, we certainly have not. They should limit their actions with their territories not affecting our lives or sending bombs or biological weapons to murder palestinians or creating viruses to ethnically cleanse the populations by safegaurding the natural resources with an ulterior motive of colonisation
Thomas Dane,
May be you havent asked the right questions to your governments or restricted their ethnic cleansing policies. If you leaders play god, we also do the same. I refer to the words of Mr. Blair ” We need to create the conditions… “. Sure your governments have created conditions around the globe that life for indigeneous people is a hell and they do not have equal rights as illustrated in the Universal rights statements.
Truth hurts dane, truth hurts. People of non-european and non-westerners are more accepting and more tolerant and pluralistic than sterotypic americans, british and israeli’s.
We are suffering only because of some f.. head of your government wanted to colonise and break away our lands. These are mere after effects and ripples being seen and shall be seen and remembered through centuries.
Those people are sick.
Israel has to do what what it has to do and they will do what they think is best for them. Its as simple as that. Does it really matter wether they are defending themselves or just plain killing people. The point is there will never be peace in this region. There will always be war. It has been this way for centuries. Its written in the scriptures. I think the best way to end this is for these so called Islamic elements(Hizbullah, Nasrullah, Hamas etc) to bow down in front of Israel and accept their supremacy. Lets face it, right or wrong Israel is powerful. Just take what they give them. They might not get what they deserve in their minds but at least their’ll be peace. But of course this will never happen. Hamas, Hizboo or Iran for that matter dont care about people. They just think jews are bad, lets eliminate them. You cant eliminate them. They have American guns and bombs, man. So just accept what they want and live or die fighting uselessly.
Aiyn,
Booh hooh! Westerners are all corrupt and evil while Muslims are shitting gold. Everybody have to solve my problems, because I am a poor victimized saint! I am tolerant and pluralistic, so when I stereotype Westerners it is only for their own good. Westerners refuse to take out their magic wand and change the world immediately, so they are evil, intolerant, murderers who only deserve evil, intolerance, and murder in return.
Cry me a river! The discussion between you and me stops here, because you are clearly incapable of an intelligent discussion as you are too extremistic to engage in anything else than mud slinging.
Fortunately, there are plenty of people in the Middle East who have made the choice to participate in building bridges so we can meet eye to eye in the middle. Therefore, it is a complete waste of my time to engage in discussions with people like you who have clearly made the choice of digging trenches so nothing will cause your piedestal to crumble and fall.
Thomas
You make me proud to be born a Dane!
Thank you
Aiyn, stop and think about your arguments.
to Haitham and Mr. B
1. I am not talking about morality of voting for Hamas, just practical implications. The political platform of Hamas is (simplistically) :
a. Fight with corruption
b. Wellfare
c. Denial of the right of Israel to exist.
So if the Palestinians voted for Hamas because of a. and b., aren’t they also responsible in some way for c. ?
The same question goes with the Leabanease people. Aren’t they also responsible in some way for actions (or not taking actions against Hezbollah) of their government on their territory ?
2. Why the Palestinians were disappointed with peace after Israel dismantled the settlements and withdrew its army from Gaza ?
3. The fact that US sponsors the Fatah campain, does not make Fatah “bad”.
It is sad to note that the word extremism is being branded to one who questions the values of your system. I can also save my energy for the betterment of my people. Yes, it is people like us who engage in dialogue are the bridges between civilizations. It is a pity that you already lost your patience and tolerance that you couldnt answer these fundamental questions.
Someone wrote:
“Israel has to fight this war with Hezbollah to defend its Northern border.”
What a joke. To fight Hezbollah, Israel bombs Beirut, Tyre and Sidon instead. Its crazy, this kind of excuse to support Israel’s terrorism. I support any move to wipe out this racist, illegal and apartheid State off the map of the world.
- MENJ
Vadim,
Your double standards are very puzzling to me, so I would like your take on the situation.
Olmert went into the election with a disengagement plan that was clearly not a disengagement to the internationally recognized borders of Israel, so are Israelis who voted for him not responsible for the denial of Palestine’s right to exist?
When your government is the occupying power and it refuses to accept the borders of Palestine is that not the same as refusing to accept Palestine’s right to exist as a sovereign state within its internationally recognized borders?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that Palestinians were disappointed with Israel’s fake withdrawal? Did you expect them to jump with joy over that you dismantle a few illegal settlements in Gaza and then just silently accept the illegal annexation of the rest of the areas within the illegal wall and other illegal settlements in the Westbank?
Both countries may be suffering from the illegal occupation, but who do you think is occupying who?
to MENJ
Israel is fighting Hezbollah on the Lebanease territory to defend its Northern border.
Israel hits Dahya region in Beirut – where the Hezbollah headquarters were
Israel hits Tyre – from where the rockets were launched on Haifa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre#Israel-Hezbollah_War_of_2006
to Tomas a Dane
1. These are two different things – to not recognize borders of a state and to not recognize the right of a state to exist. Israelis recognize the right of the Palestinian state to exist, they do have a dispute with them about the borders. Hamas does not recognize the right of the Israeli state to exist, not matter what are its borders.
There are many countries which have border disputs with other countries, but recognize their right to exist and do not fire rockets on them. See the list of the border disputes in 2003 http://www.bartleby.com/151/fields/131.html. Denmark, Norway and Iceland are among this list. So who is talking about double standards ?
2. I would expect the Palestinians not to attack Israel from the territory, from which it had withdrawn its army and settlements. Is not it a reasonable expectation ?
3. To hand the occupied terriories over to Palestinians and to resolve all the disputs with them, Israel must have a partner to negotiate with. How can you negotiate with somebody who does not recognize your right to exist ?
Some more background on the Chabad in the photos. They are indeed crazy. They have something called “Mitzvah Tanks” which in reality are just buses emblazoned with silly slogans which follow the IOF around. The Israeli military know that they are crazy (and somewhat pathetic) too, but they humour them. I was reading an interview with one of them, Chaim Nevo this morning. He is a “fruitcake” of the first order, who believes that Israel should occupy most of the Middle East, and he believed that the war had started because the government had abandoned this “Greater Israel”.
My prayers are with the people of Palestine and Lebanon.
Selam from Bosnia
Vadim,
1. Fair enough! There is a difference between the Palestinian government not accepting the right of Israel to exist and the Israeli government no accetpting the internationally recognized border between Israel and Palestine. However, things are not completely black and white, because both sides refuse to recognize more or less the same international laws.
As far as I know (without digging into UNGA and UNSC resolutions), in principle, Israel is recognized as a country (its right to exist) in one UN resolution, but its boundaries (where it has the right to exist) are stipulated in another UN resolution, and there is yet another resolution defining who has the right to live there (for whom does it exist as a home country).
Both the current and previous governments of Israel recognizes that it has a right to exist, but does not recognize its own borders (the pre-1967 borders), and does not recognize a large part of its own citizens (refugees’ righ of return). There is NO international law accepting Israel as a pure ethnic state or that a certain ethnic majority has to be guaranteed!
The current government of Palestine does not recognize Isreal’s right to exist. Israel’s right to exist was actually accepted by the previous governments of Palestine and they insisted that Israel also recognize its own borders and all of its citizens, but that did not get them anywhere!
It is true that there are many border disputes around the world which do contain the elements of rigth to exist or rockets, but if you compare Danish, Norwegian, and Icelandic border disputes with the Israel/Palestine dispute then you are comparing apples to oranges. None of the three countries are under military occupation, under economical occupation, and none of them have entry/exit of persons, goods, or finances controlled by a third party. Close, but no cigar!
2. Reasonable is not really a fitting word for much in a war or an armed conflict, so I will not comment on that – only whether it is understandable or not!
Even with the token withdrawal of military might (which can quickly return) and settlers, Palestine is still under occupation, so I think it is understandable that Palestinians still resist occupation.
Is it understandable that the Danish resistance movement would have refused to lay down its weapons if the Nazis had offered to withdraw from a small corner of Denmark during WWII? If 100% occupation is 100% unreasonable, is there any way that 90% occupation can be 100% reasonable?!?
3. You HAD a negotiation partner who recognized Israel’s right to exist!!!!
Regardless of how rational or irrational their election of Hamas was, can you really blame the Palestinian people for trying something new when everything else have been proven not to work?
If you try to look at it from the side of those that you occupy, how can you negotiate a settlement under international law with somebody who does not recognize international law?
I am not an expert in Palestinian opinions, but my impression is that most of them want the occupation to end by having their rights -laid down by international law- recognized by Israel.
Your government expects Palestinians to give up their rights in an unconditional surrender. Is it understandable that they resist? Is it reasonable or does your military might make it unreasonable?
You are the occupier; you have to take the first step towards a solution that comes closer to an unconditional withdrawal than an undonditional surrender by the ones you violate!
Oops, I forgot a not!
It should be:
It is true that there are many border disputes around the world which do –>not
I don’t often find a complete urge to set things straight about my views, but I sure as heck am finding that urge now. I would like to address some statements made here about those of us, including myself, which have been made.
1. “From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists. The bottom line is everybody has the right to exist, and israel keeps on occupying territories, abducting civilians and putting them in palestinian jails. If you say you have lost patience, so do the arabs. They have lost patience. Why is that israel is immune from all the crimes it has done. And why should we suffer.”
Where did I EVER say that everyone does NOT have the right to exist? On the contrary, I have been participating here for months, and prior to that for years voicing my opinion about the injustices against the Palestinians and Arabs/Muslims. Why am
I as adamant as I am? Because I lived in the East, was married to
a Muslim, am amicably divorced, maintain CLOSE LOVING bonds with my friends and family there AND have a 28-year old daughter from that union who is bi-cultural. For YEARS I have had to fight the bigotry on BOTH sides of the equation in order to raise her to respect and love herself as well as BOTH cultures she shares. On the reverse hand, her father and I, through LOVING her, have had to fight the bigotry in our own cultures. You cannot go telling me in any way shape or form that it does not exist on both sides of the fence because BOTH OF US, her father and I, have had to be in the trenches accepting eachother’s differences and RESPECTING them. We have also had to teach her the politics of why this bigotry exists which boils down to the US overwhelming support of Zionism. Our daughter is one very smart cookie because she has had to endure bigotry on both sides (such as the statement ‘how different are you from Germans and European fascists’) because she has been judged on BOTH sides suspiciously. Not by all, OF COURSE not, but by enough to make her hardened enough to become an ambassador to both. What? She’s half American so she must be fascist. What? She’s half Arab so she must own a camel and be a possible terrorist. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
2. “From Robin to all the viewers, if you really have questioned your goverments, we wouldnt have seen massacres being carried out everywhere in your name or in your people names. Just by mere organizing a donor conference or live8 what have u achieved. You can organize many conference and benefits, to flourish your business interests.” I ask, how can I, one single individual, be held TOTALLY accountable for my country’s deeds when all I do is speak out against them? Let me see, somehow Robin and Thomas and all other Westerners are fully responsible PERSONALLY because they PERSONALLY have not been able to stop their government’s actions. Gee, that sort of sounds like the collective punishment being hurled against Lebanon and the Palestinians currently taking place. I think someone, anyone should REALLY stop and THINK before making such broad statements. So even organizing benefits, giving to charities, doing political advocacy, because our actions have not achieved what those suffering wish them to achieve we are told they’ve done no good and then called fascists ourselves? GIVE ME A BREAK AGAIN. Tonight I am PERSONALLY giving a lecture to a group of senior citizens about Ehren Watada, our first enlisted officer to refuse redeployment to Iraq on grounds that the war there is illegal. He is facing years in prison for his stance. It CERTAINLY is not going to end the war in Iraq, but it WILL give the participants there tonight some vital information about this organizaion, Courage to resist and Thank You Lieutenant. I do NOT have a magic wand nor do I hold a political office, a HIGH political office such as the Presidency or Secretary of State where I could make a significant impact. But the last time I checked, none of us here do. So this continued extremist rant against all Westerners MERELY because they are Westerners is just that, EXTREMIST.
PS to everyone. Could we please get back to the subject of this thread, the pictures above and the topic of Arabs being called “terrorists” while Zionists somehow escape the well earned description. I might add, that my own government, the US is currently AND in the past participated in mass “terrorism” against other peoples in the world, in other words, “terrorism is terrorism” no matter who is perpetrating it. Or at least that’s my opinion.
The UN Resolution were never respected by state of Israel.Why Israel did not implement the Right to Return (UN issued that resolution in 1948 its Nr is 94)and 242 issued in 1967) till now? Why they refused the League of Arab States Appeal which took place in Beirut in 2005 (Prince Abdullah Initiative?)
The right to live does not execlude Palestenian and Lebanese children.
The new Meddle East will only consider the interests of USA and its allies (including many Arab Regimes)
It is amzing how somebody allow himself to reformulate the Human Norms ans Values only according to those which suites their believes, and politics. Democracy, Selfedetermintion, antidescrimination, independence and so on have now new meaning. I am wondering why the vocabulary should be changes according to those who are in power. Are we in a Jungle? Are we animals?
Furthermore to clarify: Should legitimate resistance to oppression be called “terrorism”. I say emphatically, NO!! When a people such as the Palestinians have been subjected to YEARS of oppression and occupation that is categorically WRONG!! We are all put here on this earth by ONE creator and must ALL be held accountable for our PERSONAL behavior towards others. We ALL have the duty to speak out against oppression of other people be they Palestinian, Latin American, African, Asian, European, Arab, Indian on and on. These Zionist zealots seen above signing these bombs are engaging in an act AGAINST humanity. NOTHING is ever gained by oppression. Oppression breeds distrust and hatred which is antithetical to our own self-interests and is against the will of our creator. Rather than oppress, we all must LISTEN to the needs of our fellow human beings because in the end, we all have only one earth to share, one life to live and it is up to US to implement our creator’s wish for us ALL to live in harmony. On a side note, I completely respect Hanan’s plea above, “What is important is to how to achieve peace” Every single person placed on this earth has the CHOICE of how to conduct themselves. Rather than signing bombs, we have the CHOICE to reach out to eachother in peace. I fully understand that in the current situation it is next to impossible to do. But as with all situations, I pray to GOD ALMIGHTY that the bloodshed against the Palestinians and the Lebanese cease immediately so that ALL hope of peace is not vanquished from the realm of all possibility. Praying as I do, every single moment for our brothers and sisters in humanity, the Palestinians and the Lebanese people AND those in Israel who wish for their own government to stop the bloodshed. Peace to all.
Thomas,
1. You wrote :
“You are the occupier; you have to take the first step towards a solution that comes closer to an unconditional withdrawal than an undonditional surrender by the ones you violate!”
I think Israel had made the first step by signing the Oslo accords and accepting the Palestinian Authority. From this point both Israel and the Palestinian Authority should work together peacefully to define their future borders and to resolve all the disputs. After the signing of the Oslo accords the Noble prizes for peace were granted to Peres, Rabin and Arafat;
Rabin was assasinated because of the peace process, he paid for it with his life.
Israeli people thought that it was time for peace, the “New Middle East”. Some of them had a good time in restaurants in Ramallah and in the casino in Jericho. But Hamas did not accept the Oslo accords and continued suicide bombings. So Israel continued to negotiate with Arafat and to fight with Hamas. Then, the second intifada started in 2000 and the peace dreams were shattered altogether.
The second step was made by the one-sided withdrawal from Gaza. The third one – voting for Kadima, the party which planned to continue withdrawal from the West Bank.
2. There is an expectation in Israel for some “gentlemen’s” behaviour – if you withdraw your army from some territory you are not attacked FROM THE SAME TERRITORY. I think it is rather reasonable expectation, however it is a matter of taste.
3. Although Israel was created to provide a refuge to Jews in light of all the history of their persecution (not only during the Holocaust) because of their religon and ethnicity , it is a multinational bilingual state. There are Jews, Arabs, Druze, Cherkess people, Armenians and others living in it, all of them have equal legal rights. Some Arabs serve in Israeli army.
4. It seems to me that the Palestinian refugees, who fled Israel several weeks after it was created, are not considered Israeli citizens and have no Israeli passports.
I would like to present to you some historical example – after WWII the German population was transfered from the East Prussia, Poland and Chechoslovakia, and nobody today thinks that they will ever return to their place of birth. Would you demand from Russia or Poland or the Chech republic to receive back the displaced German citizens with all their descendants ? Such things just do not happen in this world. No state would allow to a hostile population to return in such big numbers.
5. You wrote : “Regardless of how rational or irrational their election of Hamas was, can you really blame the Palestinian people for trying something new when everything else have been proven not to work?”
I expect from the Palestinian people to tell in some way to the Hamas politicians – “we vote for you because of your wellfare program and your fight with corruption, not because of your denial of the right of Israel to exist. Please do recognize the right of Israel to exist” It is up to the Palestinian people how to do it – demonstrations etc.
To
The Prime Minister/ President
Lebanon.
The Arab League;
Leaders of Middle East.
This is to bring to your attention that any move to force palestinian and lebaneese people into an permanent cease fire accord between lebaneese state and the palestinian authority with out the consent of the people of the middle east through a referendum, shall be null and void.
With the latest move of israel and its ally U.S to deploy an International Peace keeping force. Is committing our generations to slavery of the west. For the following reasons.
1. The conditions mention return of the sheeba farms to lebanon.
2. return of palestinian and lebaneese civilians abducted and in Israeli Jails.
3. recognition of israel as a state.
4. Disarming Hezbollah.
The situation here is that such an agreement would neutralise hezbollah and this proves that a military strike on IRAN is on the cards. As a strategical analysis by pentagon and mossad. It has been realised earlier that any military strike at iran and syria would involve multiple players in the game such as hezbollah. Thus, CIA and mossad have sketched out a game plan to provoke abduction of the two soldiers by abduction of key palestinian ministers prior to the capture of gilad shalit.
If the arabs sign any binding agreement, this gives them the teeth to have presence in lebanon thus syria is put to task against any cooperation with iran, in the event of military strike at iran.
Iran should prepare immediately for any possible invasion from israel or its allies.
By calling up on a middle east referendom stating a threat to territorial integrity. All the neighbouring countries should go for a broader consensus to disarm Israel nuclear capabilities.
Regional democracy states that in the interest of peace and security of the region. It is mandatory for countries holding nuclear capabilities should comply with regional security conditions of the middle east.
By involving a specific clause stating that israel would disarm its nuclear capabilities as hezbollah and hamas would and recognise democratically elected hamas government.
In the interest of security in the middle east, the democratic movement to disarm israel should serve as vital tool for disarming hezbollah thus ensuring peace through out middle east.
———————————–
I was going through the blog. to the viewers, bush government is on a path to setup an american empire. do not buy any arguements given by american and british media. they are identifying bloggers and tagging them.
Haitham, you are doing excellent job, now you should mobilise people for a referendum to disarm israel and hezbollah simultaneously for a new middle east peace initiative.
To Thomas a Dane:
Since you didn’t bother to refer to my Norway example, allow me to rub it in a bit further …
In your own country, economic and cultural privileges for Folkekirken are not shared by Muslim or other minority communities.
Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !
What a strange world we live in …
To Thomas a Dane:
Since you didn’t bother to refer to my Norway example, allow me to rub it in a bit further …
In your own country, economic and cultural privileges for Folkekirken are not shared by Muslim or other minority communities.
Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !
What an unfair world we live in …
From Talmud:
************
* Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
* O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
* Jews Have Superior Legal Status
Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”
* Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile (“heathen”) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who “marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean…”
* Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”
* Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.
* NON-JEWISH CHILDREN are SUB-HUMAN
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Robin,
When you say:………”Should legitimate resistance to oppression be called ?terrorism?. I say emphatically, NO!! When a people such as the Palestinians have been subjected to YEARS of oppression and occupation that is categorically WRONG!!”
Do you mean:………When a brain-washed fifteen year old Palestinian kid straps a bomb to his chest and blows himself up in the middle of a busy street cafe that it should NOT be called terrorism?
For your sake I hope that is not what you mean. And if it is what you mean…I hope you are young and ignorant for your age…so there is still time for you to learn a thing or two about the world.
Granted these Hezbolah, Hamas, Al Queda, (who cares how to spell any of them anyway?) sh*theads are fighting back against the terrible terrible West the only way they can. They do not have the same tech as their enemies. They fight by killing the children of the enemy. To most that is sick. At least we are targeting the enemy and only accidentally hitting the children. They TARGET THE CHILDREN. Robin…you need to read between the lines in this world. Especially in the United States.
Radical Islam Must DIE.
You know what surprises me? Why don’t the people who say that Islam is a great peaceful religion stand up and say/do something about the radicals in their own house who are giving the religion its bad name. We ridicule and call to attention radical Christians in our country Robin. Why are these Mulims NOT doing the same in their respective nations? Why dammit? Could it be that there is no peaceful Islam? When you really think about it are there ANY peaceful monotheistic religions?
By the way all three monotheistic religions are the BASIS for Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, And Fascism. Now Kneel down slaves and worship your god.
comment on number 72: the talmud
…and they say muslims hate jews.
in fact, whatever written in the talmud, as stated in comment 72, shows that jews hate any non-jews, period, full stop, correct me if im wrong.
please feel free to say that what is in the talmud is not true
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)
Hey mongo,
if you cross the street from where you live, i think there’s a shop on the corner, i suggest you buy some:
1- manners patches
2- logic pills
3- we are the victims instead anti depressants
4- bullshit suppositories
nothing is by accident. israellis have the technology to know exactly where they are bombing, whereas hezbolla dont (i am not justifying in any way what hezbolla is doing)
take a deep breath……
Madman,
I went across the street and got all you said…I feel much better. Thanks for the advise.
I know Israel has the precision weapons. Unfortunately my tax dollars went to supplying them. Maybe Israel does not attack the terrorists with every piece of ordinance. Maybe you are right. Maybe they want to kill muslim innocents every once in a while; you know revenge for the terrorists of Islam who have targeted and killed Israeli innocents for almost thirty steady years.
No I am not siding with Israel. I think they are both stupid for going on like this for so long. But attacking radical Islam’s leaders is not working. One goes down…five more rise up.
What are you trying to say?
to Mad with Anger
You wrote : “nothing is by accident. israellis have the technology to know exactly where they are bombing…”
Are you saying that the Israeli army intentionally targets the Lebanease civilians ?
To show you the proportions : in the bombing of Dresden in WWII, the British Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Forces killed more than 25 000 people during three days, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Impact_of_the_attack
The Israeli army started to bomb Hezbollah 14 days ago. Do you see the contradiction ?
mongo,
not trying to say anything new, we all know that what’s happening is shit. both sides have lost a lot, it’s not a win win situation. but for the record, it’s not only muslims who live in south lebanon or beirut, there are christians as well, druze and people from other sects. im just saying that im sick and tired in hearing israelis justiying what their country is doing, and how hezbolla still think they can win this war. hezbolla is not lebanon and not all lebanese.
again, what this MADWOMAN is trying to say is that her country has fallen into ruin, she lost her house in the south that her parents spent thousands of dollars to rebuild after the withdrawal in 2000, she also lost 2 relatives. i guess what i had said is justifiable, at least from my perspective.
Mongo,
I am neither young (52) nor naive. I have studied this subject for YEARS and been exposed to war in the region (the Lebanese civil war, 1975, six month stint), culture (by marriage and continued experience), current war ( I have several family members in Beirut currently, two of them doctors who have had their own home bombed out by the Israelis and are currently living in HORRIFIC living conditions taking care of the dead and injured as well as each other), bigotry (Christian, Moslem and Jewish), love (Christian, Moslem and Jewish) and fear for my own safety here in this country as well as when traveling.
Continually the subject of “suicide bombers” arises. Do I support such a tactic? Absolutely not. Do I support the so-called legitimate warfare waged upon the Palestinians? No, I absolutely do not. I have not personally been to Palestine but I HAVE visited refugee camps in Lebanon where I witnessed absolutely HORRENDOUS living conditions for those living there. When the topic of “suicide bombers” is raised it is almost always raised in order to discredit the Palestinian cause and their aspirations to their homeland. I am asking every single reader here to imagine, to put yourselves ENTIRELY in the shoes of a Palestinian who is living in fear every single day of their lives from the IOF. Unable to move freely, unable to work freely, unable to obtain the daily existance by ANY stretch of the term we in the West are accustomed to, unable to have any hope other than dieing in the same conditions into which they have been born. I am in NO WAY justifying suicide bombers. I am attempting to ask why they exist? Could it possibly be that when a Palestinian child walks out the door to go to school in the morning there is a very strong chance they might not return home that night? Could it be that their home has been bulldozed because one of their family members, unbeknownst to them has been involved in armed resistance against the occupier? Could it be that a friend or loved one has been held in prison for years without charge or trial. Could it be that their other fellow Arab nations and the Arab League have been either neglectful or impotent in helping them. Could it be that they have gone “over the edge” (something people of ALL cultures done?) Could it be they have learned hate because nothing but hate has been targeted at them by almost the entire world since the day they were conceived?
As for lumping all the various Arab so called “terrorist” organizations into one neat package, I would suggest to all readers to educate themselves as to the differences between the entities because they are NOT all the same. It is a very clever trick both by governments and the media in the West to lump them all into the “war on terror” and it is precisely this deception which has gotten our own country into the mess it is in when it comes to our own MUCH failed foreign policy.
As for calling the radical Christians in our own country to the carpet, it seems we have not been doing a very good job because their power is GREATLY on the rise in both domestic and foreign policy. Where have you been Mongo, the rapture is near and that’s why we NEED to support Israel!! And PS, Moslems worldwide are speaking out against radical Islam, but they to are at war internally for their own faith. I could say more, but my computer is acting up.
to vadim,
no im not saying that israelis WANT to target civilians, im just saying that they know there are civilians there, and still, they bombed. as for the example you just stated, it was more than 60 years ago, why do we always need to go back in time. let’s keep it in the now. what happened before isnt justifiable either.
may i remind you all of the israeli operation grapes of wrath in 1996 where the qana massacre took place. since vadim likes to refer a lot to wikipedia, you will know more of the JUSTIFIED israli targeting, or shall I say MISTAKE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling
In my earlier post, # 28, some of my comments did not go through. This is what was supposed to appear in the end:
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Finally, I wish to have a go at Aiyn. I think it is absolutely grotesque and inexcusable to deny the historical fact of the holocaust. Unfortunately, there seems to be an emerging trend among Muslims and Arabs to deny something so well-known and established as the holocaust. I think when Arabs and Muslims deny the historical event of the holocaust, they are being no better, in fact, even worse, than the Israelis who deny their oppression of the Palestinians and remain in denial of the atrocities they carried out during the creation of the state of Israel. Holocaust of the 6 million Jews and the 3 million gypsies is a historical fact and no sober historian and scholar denies it. Yes, some might squabble over the exact numbers, but there can be no denying that millions of Jews were brutally killed by the Nazis. From an Islamic perspective, the Holocaust is a is a mutawattir event, that is to say that it has been reported by so many people in unbroken chain of transmission over such a wide area and generally consistently that it becomes rather absurd to deny it.
As a Muslim alone, I feel more close to my Jewish friends than I do to Christians. There are so many similarities and points of commonality between us, whether it be in religion, conception of God, general religious practises etc. Islam and Judaism are closer than perhaps even Christianity and Judaism. I see no reason why the two people cannot live together peacefully.
++++++++++
I think the comments on the holocaust are important and I think that the moderator should delete posts which contain a denial of the holocaust.
I will now offer some comments in response to some of what has been said in the various posts.
1. Chris (# 33) asserted that “It?s the poor, always victimized muslims who call for another holocaust (though they claim that the first one never did happen), who call for nukes on Israel, who chant ?Death to all Jews? . . . ” These are generalizations and stereotyping of a people. Not all Muslims deny the holocaust or wish for another holocaust or desire the use of Nukes on Israel or dream about killing all Jews just as not all Jews wish the killing of Muslims, the use of Nukes on Muslims and chant death for Muslims. Yes, some within both communities, as well as others, do adhere to such extremist views. But it is quite wrong and, frankly, ridiculous to paint all with the same brush. Moreover, Chris should realize that Israel has the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East, so much so that it would put Saddam Husain to shame when he was at the peak of his power. Israel already has enough nukes to destroy the entire region multiple times whereas Iran is merely suspected of working towards the achievement of nukes, and even then experts disagreeing. I doubt Israel has this arsenal for purposes of love. Chris went on to assert that “The even claim the Quran tells them to do so” – “them” being Muslims, who allegedly claim that to chant nuke on Israel, killing all the Jews, denial of holocaust and wish for another holocaust is allegedly proclaimed in the Quran. I have personally never come across such types of idiotic Muslims and I very much feel that Chris made this story up for emotional reasons. However, if not, and assuming there are Muslims who defend the aforementioned grotesque views by pointing towards the Quran, then that only shows how ignorant they are. There is no mention of nukes in the Quran, obviously, no mention of holocaust, and nothing within it that says that we can just go out and kill Jews “for fun.” Finally, he asserts that Hizbollah fighters are allegedly “hiding in civilian areas.” Where is the evidence? Of the 400+ Lebanese that have been killed, barely 5-6 were Hezbollah. All the rest were unarmed civilians, who were bombed as they lay in their apartment complexes etc. Only since the past two days have the Hizbollah casualties increased and gone up to around 20. Why? Because they were waiting for Israel in the border areas for a face to face confrontation…. Using the same argument, Jonathan Cook has pointed out that many of the Israeli military installations in the north are quite close to population centres, many being Arab towns and villages. Would Chris now conclude that the Israeli army is “hiding” its arsenal among Israeli civilians? I doubt it.
2. Nir (# 43) and Vadim (# 50) basically state that since the Palestinians in large numbers voted for Hamas, it follows that they oppose peace and do not wish Israel to exist. However, we are not told why we should not come to the same conclusion when the Israelis voted for a war criminal, Sharon, who was widely known to be the traditional opponent of peace and the denial of Palestinian rights? How about the Israeli people voting for candidates in the past elections who even refused to recognize the term “Palestine”? Or, how about their support for Olmert, who clearly has no real desire for peace and negotiations? Should we stereotype all Israelis based on these realities? And yet one has to audacity to howl over the Palestinian support for Hamas, which is actually quite understandable given the very barbaric treatment given to the Palestinians for decades by the Israeli occupiers. I suppose none of this should be seen as possible factors that led the Palestinians to vote for Hamas? Moving on, the primary reason why Palestinians voted for Hamas, as has been pointed out by others, was due to the corruption of Fatah and their incompetency. Hamas has been a welfare organisation, providing hospitals, schools etc., for the ease and betterment of the occupied populations. Now, while it is true that Hamas has traditionally denied accepting the existence of Israel, they, nonetheless, offered Israel peace and negotiations, together with a ceasefire offer (agreed ceasefires in the past have almost always been violated by Israel). This was a positive step. Yet, this offer was rejected and immediately after the elections the occupied Palestinian populations were subjected to an even harsher regime of sanctions, the aim of which was collective punishment. So, who is coming out as being consistently opposed to peace? Israel. Vadim asked “Why the Palestinians were disappointed with peace after Israel dismantled the settlements and withdrew its army from Gaza ?” Well, the answer is that the Palestinians were offered no “peace” by Israel. Israel basically came out of within Gaza, surrounded it, letting no one in and out, and punished the civilians with brutal sanctions, bombings, kidnappings and killings. This is not “peace” in any vocabulary. Vadim proceeds to argue that the Lebanese people are also “responsible” in “some way” since they did not take action against Hizbollah. But the argument doesn?t hold up in my view. Why should they take “action” against the Hizbollah, a part and parcel of the Lebanese society? The Hizbollah came about only after the Israeli occupation of Lebanon in which Israel was responsible for the killing of around 20,000 civilians. The Hizbollah is a resistance organisation in the eyes of the Lebanese, who fought the Israelis for the defence of their fellow Lebanese and who continue to strive for the release of the kidnapped Lebanese civilians who have been lurking in Israeli jails for years. The aggressor, in Lebanese view, is Israel and not the resistance movement of Hizbollah, which is a reaction to Israel. Again, the one who is refusing to cease fire and engage in negotiations is Israel.
3. Vadim (# 55) continues with his strange arguments when he draws attention to the following distinction: “Israelis recognize the right of the Palestinian state to exist, they do have a dispute with them about the borders. Hamas does not recognize the right of the Israeli state to exist, not matter what are its borders.” This is not entirely correct and, moreover, the comparison of this dispute with that of border disputes between two sovereign states is quite faulty. Palestine is not a sovereign state. It?s an occupied land and its people are living under occupation. The onus is upon the occupier to recognize the right of free existence of the occupied. The occupation needs to be ended first. Furthermore, the Hamas leaders have basically said: “which Israel do you want us to recognize? Show us its precise borders on the map.” With their offer of a ceasefire and negotiations, Hamas basically recognized the existence of an entity called Israel, but also recognized that her borders are not fixed. I think this was a reasonable start. It should be noted that the Palestinians have generally recognized Israel, though not its current shape, and that Hamas, despite its previous rhetoric, had indirectly acknowdged a two state principle and was heading towards such a direction.
4. Continuing with Vidam (this time # 68), he wrote: “Israeli people thought that it was time for peace, the ?New Middle East?. Some of them had a good time in restaurants in Ramallah and in the casino in Jericho. But Hamas did not accept the Oslo accords and continued suicide bombings. So Israel continued to negotiate with Arafat and to fight with Hamas. Then, the second intifada started in 2000 and the peace dreams were shattered altogether.” I believe this is not entirely correct. For years after Oslo there were no suicide attacks by Hamas or any types of attacks by other Palestinian militants and for around 5 years or so, I think, there was relative quite. But, in all this time, the Israelis exponentially increased settlements, continued to destroy Palestinian houses, and made little effort to end their occupation. It was much later that eventually the fighting flared up again. In the second Intifada itself, which began as a result of the mischief by Sharon, mainly Palestinian civilians were killed in large numbers and, as usual, civilian apartment complexes were blown up and other civilian localities were bombarded with ruthlessness. If we compare the terrorism perpetuated by the two sides upon each others civilians, it is the Israelis who have far, far more blood in their hands. Finally, I think Vadim offers an honest argument to justify the rejection of the right of return of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homeland in 1948. Vadim argues “after WWII the German population was transfered from the East Prussia, Poland and Chechoslovakia, and nobody today thinks that they will ever return to their place of birth. Would you demand from Russia or Poland or the Chech republic to receive back the displaced German citizens with all their descendants ? Such things just do not happen in this world.” I agree. Might is right and justice cannot take place. In the present scenario, perhaps some Palestinians might be allowed to return some parts of their former homeland, but the vast majority will never be permitted to return due to demographic fears in Israel.
I had much more to say but am tired typing and need to watch the Simpsons. Oh, someone also presented quotations from the Talmud regarding the treatment of non-Jews. I believe some of the citations are misquotations (as I was informed a few years ago by a Jewish friend) etc., so be careful when you come across such quotes.
Vadim, you wanted some of my sources. Sorry for the delay as I missed your post. Here goes!
Books:
Joseph Heller: The Stern Gang, Ideology, Politics and Terror, 1940-49, Frank Cass Publishers, 1995.
Lenni Brenner: Zionism in the Age of Dictators, Lawrence Hill publishers.
Remembering Deir Yassin: The Future of Israel and Palestine, Daniel McGowan and Marc H. Ellis
Noam Chomsky: Pirates & Emperors: International Terrorism in the Real World, Amana Books, 1986.
Journals:
Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs May/June 2006
Hamas: A Pale image of the Jewish Irgun and Lehi gangs
‘Web
Interview with Benny Morriss (remember Deir Yassin).
Also the Wikipedia entries on Lehi makes some interesting reading, as well as the one that you cited. Also check out their entries for Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, Haganah, Revisionist Zionism, List of Irgun attacks during the 1930′s (though the written ones are better)
There are many more but I am getting bored now and we are off topic anyway!
Robin,
My apologies for my misunderstood assumptions. I hope the best for you and yours.
Thank you for the various examples of how a terrorist could possibly be created. But let me remind you that it is the person who makes the decision to kill join an organization that shows hope of ending their misery. It is that person that says “ok” when that organization tells them to target innocent lives. They CHOOSE to kill children.
As far lumping most terrorist groups together: If they use suicide bombing as their method of war then they are all evil, regardless of what their platform is in their respective nations.
You say:……”Moslems worldwide are speaking out against radical Islam, they to are at war internally for their own faith.”
I say……they need to speak a hell of a lot louder. It sure does not seem like the terrorist are hearing. And what does it mean that they are “at war internally for their own faith?”
“Israel is fighting Hezbollah on the Lebanease territory to defend its Northern border.”
So Beirut, Tyre and Sidon are next to the “northern border” of Israel? I think my geographical knowledge of the area is quite
“Israel hits Dahya region in Beirut – where the Hezbollah headquarters were”
And Hassan Nasrallah is still alive and well, alhamdulillah. So much for “hitting” the HQ…can’t even target properly. You do, however, manage to kill about 200 innocent civillians. Congratulations.
“Israel hits Tyre – from where the rockets were launched on Haifa”
And the attacks on Tyre kills civillians, and the rockets still rain on Haifa. I heard 18 terrorists in Haifa were wounded today. Very good news.
- MENJ
Hi everyone,
My heart and my thoughts go to whole lebanese people.
My grandfather fought the nazis in france, helped break free from nazism/fascism, and now we all witness what israelis, the very same poeple who were oppressed, slaughtered et deported do to other people. shame on you israel.
What I don’t understand, is why when someone speaks about “revisiting holocaust” is automatically dubbed as anti-semit, neo nazi or a holocaust denier?, the WHOLE europe has suffered from the nazi regime, not only the jews.
Sorry my english isn’t good.
Roy,
If you had followed up on the case of article 12 in the Norwegian Constitution, then you would know that a large reform of the Norwegian state church is in progress. One thing that the state church itself proposes is to repeal…tadah…article 12.
However, though article 12 technically is a law, it cannot and is not being followed, because in all Scandinavian countries it is illegal to register race, religion, and sexual preference of people (including politicians), so in practice there is no way the law can be enforced! It is a matter of registration law and human rights.
Sure, it is a bit messy with these kind of legacy ‘non-laws’, but it was also a bit messy that until 10-15 years ago it was still stipulated in the Danish traffic law that a person with a red warning flag had to walk 50 meters in front of a motorized vehicle (to warn horse riders and horse drawn wagons that a noisy automobile would pass by). Some ‘silly’ laws are repealed or turned into ‘non-laws’ by other laws or (as in the case of the warning flag) some bureaucrat (in this case the national Chief of Police) writes a decree that nobody should enforce it – if nobody challenges that, then it is a modification of the law even though it actually not a modification of the law. Confused?
I didn’t know that Muslim Brotherhood propaganda was also eaten raw in Israel ;) I don’t know exactly what you refer to, but though there still are references in the Danish Constitution favoring the state church (Folkekirken) then they do not really work against any other religions. Regardless of what you have heard, there is full religious freedom in Denmark (the only ones ‘forced’ to be members of the state church is the royal family, but the constitution was commissioned by…tadah…the royal family when Denmark went from Monarchy to Constitutional Monarchy).
According to Danish law a 0.75% share of personal income goes to the state church, which may be what you refer to as economic privilege as no other religious community can collect money that way. However, any Danish tax payer can avoid paying the church tax in which case it goes directly into his/her own pocket (and can be donated to any other religion). I am an Agnostic Atheist, but when I was living in Denmark I chose to pay the church tax, because though I don’t care about all the mumbo jumbo going on in the churches, the church buildings are historical buildings which are part of the Danish cultural heritage and therefore I think that it is important to preserve them. If we had any mosques which were hundreds of years old then I would be in favor of preserving them as well.
A few years ago a special tax allocation was given to partly pay for the renovatation of the large (Christian) church where our royal family has been put to rest through centuries. All Danish tax payers contributed to that, but all Danish tax payers also contributed to partially pay for a large mosque in Copenhagen, but this was one of the thing the Muslim Brotherhood forgot to mention in their propaganda papers! The mosque is still in the planning and I have not really followed the progress (and I do not care enough to google for further info).
Should these kind of Christian-favoring laws be removed? Of course they should, but changing constitutions require long technical procedures, so as long as a practical solution can solve the problem, then it is not a major issue.
If a problem with unfair treatment occurs in Denmark, then there is a democratic process in place to have the problem fixed. Do you offer that kind of ‘luxury’ to e.g. the non-Jews being forcefully evicted from Jerusalem?
You said: “Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do!”
Do you really believe in that nonsense yourself? It is a public secret that the Knesset is famous for its ability to create apartheid laws without mentioning the words ‘Jews’ and ‘non-Jews’!
@answeringmissionaries, first of all, thanks for your long comment.
Let me clarify that I was not generalizing. I was referring to the kind of muslims who took part in these strange peace demonstrations I mentioned.
You claim that Israel has a large stockpile of deterrent weapons. I say: Good so. Because we all know what would happen to Israel without these weapons. Some arab leaders are talking about it very often.
Sure, the quran doesn’t mention nukes on Israel. However, some muslims seem to come to such or similar conclusions, even on TV, based on religious orders.
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html
Your answer will probably be: These preachers are morons, or the tv clips are fake, or I, as a non-muslim, am not able to understand that in the right way. But there are too much people who take these morons seriously. You may take a closer look at the charta of hamas, as well, as an example.
To hezbollah operating from civilian areas:
?Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending … among women and children,? he said. ?I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don?t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.?
That was said by Jan Egeland from U.N.. If you want a lebanese source, you may read http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/07/day-6-more-attacks.html#c115313612288384652
If you have followed Egeland’s statement in the past, you have noticed that he is not pro-Israeli at all.
Where is your evidence that your figures about civilian casualties are true? Would Nasrallah be a civilian in this calculation, because he doesn’t wear uniform?
Yes, I think the civilian casualties are too high. But I refuse to blindly take the figures of one party as truth. The truth is the first loser in a war (and that’s valid for both sides, of course).
But I think it’s hezbollah who holds the key to stop these civilians casualties. They started the war (or never stopped it after the Israeli withdrawal), and they may stop it by stopping shooting rockets at civilian targets and returning the israeli soldiers.
We all blame Iran and Syria for supplying missles to hezbollah.
What about blaming the US for supplying jets, tanks, etc. to Israel.
These people have no way to protect themselves.
I have friends who are Lebaneese and they are worried about their families. They are christians and their families are living in the territories that the Israelis are saying are Hezbollah controlled areas.
Who is right, who is wrong.
to answeringmissionaries
You wrote :
“For years after Oslo there were no suicide attacks by Hamas or any types of attacks by other Palestinian militants and for around 5 years or so, I think, there was relative quite.”
The facts are missing in your comment. Since you do not know the facts, you make wrong conclusions.
The facts are :
“The initial wide public support for the Oslo Accords began to wane as Israel was struck by an unprecedented wave of attacks supported by the militant Hamas group, which opposed the accords. Public support slipped even further.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#1990s
1993 – 65 Israelis killed and 390 wounded
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_93/midleeast.html#Israel
1994 – 55 Israeilis killed and 150 wounded
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_94/midleeast.html#Israel
1995 – 39 Israelis killed and 252 wounded
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_95/termid.htm#Israel%20and%20the%20Occupied%20Territories/Palestinian%20Autonomous%20Areas
1996. 1996 February 25 – March 4: A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack#1996
So now, after the facts are known to you, would you consider rethinking your position ?
vadim,
i think your comment is missing some,i mean alot of facts too..
try this ..hope every 1 would watch it .
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7713806100545252588&q=israeli+terrorism
to MENJ
I thought my intention was clear, but I will clarify it more if needed :
Israel is fighting Hezbollah to defend its Northern border, no matter where Hezbollah is. If Hezbollah headquaters are in Dahya (a region in Beirut), Israil fights it in Dahya. If Hezbollah launches rockets on the Israel’s Northern border from Tyre, the Israeli army fights it in Tyre.
Are you blaming Israel for not succeeding to kill Nasralla in the Hezbollah headquarters ? Nobody is perfect and no army is perfect.
See what the United Nations’ emergency relief co-ordinator, Jan Egeland, said about Hezbollah : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm
“But I also clearly see that Hezbollah is trying to blend into the civilian population in too many places and they bear also a heavy responsibility for this. They do not seem to care that they really inflict a lot of suffering on their own population,”
So, if Hezbollah launches rockets from a village, amid the civilian population, Israeli army bombs the launchers and, unfortunately, civilians in vicinity of the Hezbollah militants are killed and wounded also.
You wrote “I heard 18 terrorists in Haifa were wounded today. Very good news.” So you are happy about the deaths of the Israeli civilians and call them terrorists ? I am NOT happy about the Leabanese civilians, and do NOT consider them terrorists. This is the difference between me and you.
to MAD with ANGER
So you are saying Israeli army does not target the Leabanese civilians intentionally ? Is is already better.
You wrote :
“they know there are civilians there, and still, they bombed”
See what I wrote to MENJ :
See what the United Nations? emergency relief co-ordinator, Jan Egeland, said about Hezbollah : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm
?But I also clearly see that Hezbollah is trying to blend into the civilian population in too many places and they bear also a heavy responsibility for this. They do not seem to care that they really inflict a lot of suffering on their own population,?
So, if Hezbollah launches rockets from a village, amid the civilian population, Israeli army bombs the launchers and, unfortunately, civilians in vicinity of the Hezbollah militants are killed and wounded also.
How would you fight a terrorist organization which blends into civilian population and fires on you from places with civilian population ?
to MAD with ANGER
With regard to the Qana shelling, from the wikipedia link you mentioned :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#Response
“Israel immediately expressed regret for the loss of innocent lives, saying that the Hezbollah position and not the UN compound was the intended target of the shelling, and that the compound was hit “due to incorrect targeting based on erroneous data.”
Both the U.S. and Israel accused Hezbollah of “shielding”, the use of civilians as a cover for military activities, which is a breach of the laws of war. The U.S. State Department spokesperson, Nicolas Burns stated, “Hezbollah [is] using civilians as cover. That’s a despicable thing to do, an evil thing.”
Blunders happen in any army in any war. You can see the NATO blunder in the war in Kosovo : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
“IDF: Hizbullah preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon
The IDF has found that Hizbullah is preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon. Roadblocks have been set up outside some of the villages to prevent residents from leaving, while in other villages Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out. (Hanan Greenberg)”
OH MY GOD, GIVE ME A BREAK. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT, MY GOD. LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, ONE OF MY FRIENDS IS A HEZBOLLA SUPPORTER (UNFRTUNATELY) AND HE HAS BEEN TRYING TO GET PEOPLE OUT SINCE THE WHOLE THING STARTED, WITH THE SUPPORT OF HEZBOLLA PEOPLE. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHERE DOES ISRAEL GETS ITS NEWS, BUT IT’S DEFINITELY NOT FROM LEBANON, COS IF IT WAS SO, IT WLD KNOW IT IS NOT TRUE. ANYWAY, I AM NOT SURPRISED, THIS IS THE TWISTED MEDIA, AS ALWAYS.
Thomas a Dane:
You say:
“There is full religious freedom in Denmark”
be that as it may, but there is no seperation between the church and the state. I am not influenced by any type of Muslim propaganda, unlike you I am referring only to facts:
“The Constitution stipulates that the Evangelical Lutheran Church is the national church, the reigning monarch shall be a member the church, and the state shall support it. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is the only religious organization that can receive state subsidies or funds directly through the tax system. Approximately 12 percent of the Church’s revenue comes from state subsidies; most of the rest comes from the church tax that is paid only by members. No individual may be compelled to pay church tax or provide direct financial support to the national church or any other religious organization. Members of other faiths, notably Catholics, have argued that the system is unfair, and that the Government does not provide religious equality, despite providing religious freedom. Allowing other religious organizations to be given the same status and privileges as the Evangelical Lutheran Church would require changes to the Constitution.”
see: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51549.htm
Does that look like a Muslim source ?
Now, what happens when cultures collide ? Not all people share your modern western views of the world. I am sure you believe in freedom of speach, am I right ? Well, I do too. Where you a just a little surprised about radical Muslim’s world reaction to the cartoons that have been published in your own newspaper Jyllands-Posten on September 30, 2005 ?
Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen described the controversy as Denmark’s worst international crisis since World War II.
see: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2041723,00.html
Well I envy you that you live in a region in which that is its worst crises in more than 60 years.
Anyway my point is we live in an imperfect world. Israel is doing its best to fight its enemies while remaining humane. If you had a neighbour like Hizbullah you would be attacked violently with regard to that incident, I assure you. Would you then protect yourself or blame your newspaper and give up freedom of speach ?
Now regarding to what you say about Israel:
“It is a public secret that the Knesset is famous for its ability to create apartheid laws without mentioning the words ?Jews? and ?non-Jews?!”
Very sarcastic and exquisite, however since I do concider you to be an intelligent person I will ask that you work a little harder and back up your comments with some objective proof as I have.
Thomas,
You wrote : “If a problem with unfair treatment occurs in Denmark, then there is a democratic process in place to have the problem fixed.” There is also a democratic process in Israel to have the problem fixed. There are Arab and Jewish members of Knesset, who defend the interests of the minorities. These days anti-war demonstrations take place in Tel Aviv and Haifa, and Jews also participate in these demostrations. see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279792,00.html
You wrote : “It is a public secret that the Knesset is famous for its ability to create apartheid laws without mentioning the words ?Jews? and ?non-Jews?! ”
Can you provide some links to such laws ?
Vadim from Haifa wrote:
“to Mad with Anger
You wrote : ?nothing is by accident. israellis have the technology to know exactly where they are bombing??
Are you saying that the Israeli army intentionally targets the Lebanease civilians ?”
Vadim,
In many legal systems around the world there is the concept of “Bonus Pater” (the good father), which is a legal principle used in evaluating the degree of culpability of somebody who have killed/injured/damaged somebody or something. Basicly it is used in the way that the court asks: “would a considerate and caring person with sound mental capacity (the good father) have foreseen that driving with 150 km/h through a pedestrian zone would predicably put the lives of pedestrians seriously at risk?” If the answer is yes, then the charge will be manslaughter, but sentenced as murder (intentional killing)!
Would a considerate and caring person with sound mental capacity have foreseen that systematically destroying roads and bridges around a large city and thereafter giving tens of thousand civilians only a couple of hours to evacuate the city before shelling it with artillery would predictably put lives of civilians seriously at risk?
Yes, I consider the state of Israeli guilty of manslaughter to the degree of INTENTIONAL KILLING OF CIVILIANS!
The Geneva Conventions and all related ‘Rules of War’ do not necessarily consider all killings of civilians as war crimes – if they are considered ‘collateral damage’ to use a pretty psychopathic term. However, if civilians are killed due to attacks on targets of no military significance or if the scale of an attack is greatly disproportionate to the target (disregard of civilian lives), then killing civilians is in gross violation of the Geneva Conventions. Destroying civil infrastructure and targets of no military significance is also considered in breach of the Conventions. Collective punishment of a population is also a crime of war (if Israel is at war with Hizbollah, why is the civil society of Lebanon being targeted to this extent?!?).
So, I think it is very reasonable to accuse the Zionist extremists running Israel of being WAR CRIMINALS and Israel of using STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM, as collective punishment, disproportionate attacks, and indisciminate attacks on civilians -to mention just a few- fits the description of terrorism.
As I am not a judge or a jury, I cannot convict anybody of being war criminals or of using state sponsored terrorism. What I can do is to present my argumentation for my accusations to show that they are not completely unfounded or pulled out of the blue.
War is began from two stupid persons from the different community. They become a leader and bring all the community into suffer….thats all i know about war…!!!
To MAD with ANGER:
You claim that the post in ynet is incorrect, do you have an objective source that refutes this claim, other than your objective “HEZBOLLA SUPPORTER FRIEND” ?
To Thomas a dane,
Once more you are being naive and unpratical, civilian casualties have always occured and will occur in war:
1. During the vietnam war the lowest casualty estimates, based on North Vietnamese statements which are now discounted by Vietnam (they claim its way more), are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed.
2. During the U.S campaign in Afghanistan (October 7, 2001 thru March 2002) more than 3000 civialians have been killed.
3. Kosovo war: Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties. Human Rights Watch counted a minimum of 500 civilian deaths in 90 separate incidents. NATO acknowledged killing at most 1,500 civilians
At the start of May, a NATO aircraft attacked an Albanian refugee convoy, believing it was a Serbian military convoy, killing around 50 people. NATO admitted its mistake 5 days later, but the Serbs accused NATO of deliberately attacking the refugees. On May 7, NATO bombs hit the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, killing three Chinese journalists and outraging Chinese public opinion. The United States and NATO later apologized for the bombing, saying that it occurred because of an outdated map provided by the CIA.
4. Bangladesh Liberation War: The international media and reference books in English have published figures which vary greatly: 5,000?35,000 civilian deaths in Dhaka, and 200,000?3,000,000 in the country of Bangladesh.
Look it up its all in wikipedia. If you like more examples, I can provide more for you.
How about ?Bonus Pater? in those wars ? Is everybody a war criminal ?
“collective punishment, disproportionate attacks, and indisciminate attacks on civilians -to mention just a few- fits the description of terrorism”
How about the wars I mentioned above ? You can fit that same arguement to almost every war in history using this form of “logic” …
Seems to me you are unable or unwilling to understand that we are at war in this region now. Do you really think Israel has anything to gain by killing civilians in Lebanon ? If Israel wanted to kill civilians do you really think all the fire power of the Israeli army wouldn’t cause huge civilians deaths, I mean by the 10s of thousands ? Why give out leaflets at all then ? Why ask people to leave ? Can’t you see we don’t want this ?
Plus, Thomas a dane, I forgot to mention the most important thing. The way that Hezbollah uses civilians as Human shields in thier warfare.
see: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1182723.php/US_says_Hezbollah_using_human_shields_blames_group_for_plight
Which makes it far more difficult to avoid civilian casualties as in a standard army-against-army war.
Roy,
I really do not feel like knitpicking about something as unimportant as Danish implementation of religious freedom just to derail this discussion away from how your country is indiscriminately killing civilians in neighboring countries and pretending not to be an apartheid state.
Your claim that there is no separation of church and state in Denmark is without merits. Are there mention of a particular religion in the constitution? Yes there is. Does a particular religion influence the democratic processes? No, legislation promotes a secular state with religious freedom.
Let me compliment you on your clever pick of the quote you use. It gives a very different impression than it would have if you had included the following paragraph just above it:
“The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice. The Government at all levels strives to protect this right in full and does not tolerate its abuse, either by governmental or private actors.”
or the quotes from other sections:
“Government policy and practice contributed to the generally free practice of religion.”…”There were no reports of religious prisoners or detainees.”…”There were no reports of forced religious conversion…”
I am not going to address all the minor cultrual misunderstandings by the authors, but do you really think that the US government is the ultimate authoritative expert in Danish culture just because they have an embassy there staffed with people of which only a few speak the Danish language?
If you want my take on the ‘Mohammed Crisis’, then you can google Sabbah’s site for the many long discussions I have participated in for several months. It is yesterday’s news and it managed to bring Muslim and non-Muslim Danes closer together regardless of what you will find in the international news. Compromise among involved Danes reached. Improved communication and understanding between the two ethnicities. Case closed.
I am proud of that this is categorized as the worst crisis in the period after WWII! One of the reasons is that Danes favor negotiation and compromise over military agression at all times.
This could pull us into a chicken and egg circular discussion, but it is very probable that we do not have a problem with Hizbollah-type organizations because we abandoned the policy of occupying neighboring countries centuries ago.
As you asked, hereby a bit to back up my claim about apartheid laws in Israel:
“The 1952 Law of Entry into Israel was apparently legislated simply to regulate entry into the country. However, all its clauses, save the one making it obligatory to enter by way of an official border control point, are intended to make a clear distinction between foreign citizens who are Jewish and those who are not. Yet the words “Jew” and “non-Jew” do not appear. So it is, for instance, that the law stipulates that whoever “does not hold an immigration visa or immigration certificate” can be immediately deported by the minister of the Interior, or, can be denied a visa at any time. As for the explanation and definition of who qualifies for an immigration visa, one must seek the answer in another law, the Law of Return. The answer is: Jews.”
…
“Blatant discrimination against non-Jews can also be found in other laws dealing with the acquisition of property, government support for young couples, educational curricula, and government expenditure for schools, to cite just a few examples. The routine means for enforcing discrimination is the ID card, which everyone is obliged to carry at all times. ID cards list “nationality”, which can be Jewish, Arab, Druze, Circassian, Samaritan, Kara’ite, or foreign. When a person presents his ID card to a policeman, a security official, or to a clerk at a government office whose services he requires, they can know which “sector” he belongs to and treat him accordingly, or, refer him to those who are responsible for dealing with his “sector”.”
…
“Another law, the 1986 Military Service Law, which superficially does not appear to be discriminatory in any way, is, by dint of the wily formula used in conjunction with the “nationality” entry in the census, a destructive tool of discrimination and oppression. The term “draftee” which appears therein applies to every Israeli citizen or permanent resident, as does the term “candidate for military conscription”. In other words, a “draftee” – i.e. , someone who has not yet reported to the draft board – is a universal term and equally applicable to all citizens. How is it then, that this law has become a major tool for implementing discriminatory policies ? The answer is: by the way of a simple and at first glance innocent ploy. It appears in section three, which deals with how citizens are to be called to report for military service: a special person is appointed to be “the enumerator”; his job is to call draftees to register with the draft board and he “is authorized to order draftees and candidates for conscription to report [to the draft board]“. The law uses the term “authorized”, and in so doing leaves open the possibility for the enumerator to abstain from calling on “draftees” to report. And it is clear that those who the enumerator does not call do not have to report, and are therefore exempt from army service. In practice it is much simpler: those whose IDs list them as belonging to the “Arab sector” are not called by the enumerator.”
Source: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-palestinian-apartheidlaws.html#anchor20227
2nd source: http://www.blackcommentator.com/192/192_cover_Israeli_apartheid_dixon.html
“The 80,000 Palestinian Bedouins living in unrecognized villages in the south of Israel are citizens of Israel. They have the right to vote in national elections and when they have a job or operate a business it is their duty to pay taxes. The majority have lived for generations in villages on their land in the Negev. Following the adoption of the Planning and Construction Law of 1965, the villages did not appear on any Israeli map. They were not recognized by any official government and ignored by all government planning projects.
As there is no municipal authority that governs the villages, the Bedouin Palestinians cannot vote or be elected for municipal representation. Villagers are deprived of basic infrastructure and services like roads, sewage, running water, electricity, clinics, kindergartens and welfare services.”
Source: http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=9434§ionID=107
And here one article by Ian Urbina and Desmond Tutu (who must know a thing or two about apartheid!):
“These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid. Yesterday’s South African township dwellers can tell you about today’s life in the Occupied Territories. To travel only blocks in his own homeland, a grandfather waits on the whim of a teenage soldier. More than an emergency is needed to get to a hospital; less than a crime earns a trip to jail. The lucky ones have a permit to leave their squalor to work in Israel’s cities, but their luck runs out when security closes all checkpoints, paralyzing an entire people. The indignities, dependence and anger are all too familiar.
Many South Africans are beginning to recognize the parallels to what we went through. Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinsky, two Jewish heroes of the anti-apartheid struggle, recently published a letter titled “Not in My Name.” Signed by several hundred other prominent Jewish South Africans, the letter drew an explicit analogy between apartheid and current Israeli policies. Mark Mathabane and Nelson Mandela have also pointed out the relevance of the South African experience.”
Source: http://www.merip.org/newspaper_opeds/Tutu_IU_Israeli_Apartheid.html
2nd Source: http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList4/F06BB484D900B227C1256E3E00324D96
“Chris Davies, a North West representative who is leader of the British Liberal Democrats in the European Parliament, said that he had been shocked by what he had seen.
He commented: “Very rapid changes are taking place on the ground. Palestinian land is being carved up and communities isolated. The people compare themselves to hamsters kept in cages connected by tubes that are opened and shut at the whim of their Israeli masters. Economic progress is impossible.
“Towns are being physically divided and people denied the right to travel between them. Israel continues to steal land to expand illegal settlements served by roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use.
“We should be honest. These are the racist policies of apartheid yet Israel continues to pose as a victim.”"
Source: http://www.chrisdaviesmep.org.uk/news/2006/Apr/stop_israeli_apartheid_policies_says_lib_dem_euro_mp.htm
The above are just a few examples, but let me know what you deny in particular, then I will find further sources to back up the accuracy of the above quotes and sources!
Roy,
Using civilian casualty numbers from the Vietnam War, the War in Afghanistan, the Kosovo War, and the Bangladesh Liberation War to justify that your country kills civilians seems very odd to me.
Are you saying that this gives Israel a moral carte blanche to indiscriminately kill up to 500 Lebanese civilians (the lowest estimate you mention)? Or should it rather be up to 475,000 Lebanese civilians (a rough average of all the numbers you mention)? Hell, why don’t we just give a go-ahead with no limit – after all what does the lives of a bunch Lebanese piss ants matter when they try to ruin your apartheid picknick?!?
You know very well that you cannot go ahead and just commit a genocide without an excuse! You need one or more propaganda reasons, a blue stamp by the president of the USA, and a clever way to make it look like something else than it really is!
And you call me naive?
The shit you have going on in Lebanon reminds me a bit of the movie “Mars Attacks” where the Martians run around and shoot people left and right in the streets of Las Vegas while their Martian nyak nyak is translated to: “We come in peace! We come in peace!”
Your complete lack of respect for human life is simply apalling!
Vadim, So you are saying that it is alright to murder people, so long as you “express regret” afterwards. I will remember that next time I go out on a killing spree!
to roy from haifa
yes roy, i do, my father is still stuck in southern lebanon, marjeoun to be exact, it’s where im from, and he’s helping people first leave that area and trying to get people from villages near the border to safe havens. he told me tha hezbolla are try to make this passage as easy as possible. please take note that neither i nor my dad are hezbollah supporters.
i am sorry i wasnt able to give you an objective source on any website, because you will not see anywhere on the web saying ” hezbolla letting their people leave the wartorn areas to safe places”, you wanna know why, it is because it’s a GIVEN, it is expected, it cannot be otherwise.
to vadim from haifa
first of all, i would never believe what israel or the united states said.
second, did you see what you wrote, first you quoted what i quoted, about israel making a mistake hitting a UN compound where civilians were hiding. then you jumped into a different issue about hezbolla using civilians as human shields. Was the UN also using them as shields??????? IT WAS A MASSACRE, YOUR COUNTRY ADMITTED IT, BUT IT GOT AWAY WITH IT, DIDNT’T IT, JUST AS THEY ARE NOW.
third, and again, i never believe what israel or the US says. this is pure propaganda to their favor.
to roy,
i cant wait to hear your reply to Thomas. he has you cornered…. anyway, i already have in mind what your answer might be cos it sums it up to this: “israel’s actions are justified”.
no need to say more, this is the only thing you and your fellow israelis know how to say: “we have the right to defend ourselves”
GIVE US A BREAK
Thomas,
Ok lets brake this down one by one:
1. Bringing other quotes which are more in your favour is not really a way to dispute other quotes which or not …
“Members of other faiths, notably Catholics, have argued that the system is unfair, and that the Government does not provide religious equality, despite providing religious freedom. Allowing other religious organizations to be given the same status and privileges as the Evangelical Lutheran Church would require changes to the Constitution.?
My point being that even in your own peaceful trouble less zone basic human rights are sometimes neglected.
2. “One of the reasons is that Danes favor negotiation and compromise over military agression at all times.”
My god you can’t be serious ? Who exatly can you make war with in your region even if you wanted to in such a lovely peaceful neighbourhood.
If your claim is that Israel is responsible for all the hostility in the middle east then look up the following as well:
a. Jordan-Syria tensions
b. Jordan Civil War
c. Lebanese civil war
d. Libya-Egypt conflict
e. Iraq-Kuwait clashes
f. The 1980 Iran-Iraq War
g. UN-Iraq conflict
h. General conflicts of the US and its allies
i. US/UK/Australia-Iraq conflict
And you consider every war israel WAS involved in Israel’s fault and blame yes ?
How many wars/tensions were in your region in the past 60 years ?
I feel as if I am talking with a descendant of Marie Antoinette …
Can you see the analogue ?
3. Yes you solved the “Mohammed Crisis?” by limiting freedom of speach in that which concerns Islam. Maybe that’s ok, but what if next time you will be required to give up things which are more important to you ?
4. Regarding the Israeli Law of Return and the Law of Entry to Israel (1952) and the Law of Citizenship:
Apperantly you try refuting my comments by disregarding them, and refuting comments I didn’t make.
What started this was my following quote:
“Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !”
I didn’t say one word about who is entiled to citizenship. Keeping that in mind I was referring to the 1.3 million arab israelis.
If you want a discussion about the right for citizenship that is a totally different story to get into.
Before critisizing Israel on it’s policies on this topic look into the right of return in the following countries:
a. Armenia
b. Bulgaria
c. Czech Republic
d. Croatia
e. Finland
f. Germany
g. Greece
h. India
i. Ireland
j. Spain
and others.
All share the following definition to “right of return”
The term Right of return reflects a belief that members of an ethnic or national group have a right to immigration and naturalization into the country that they, the country, or both consider to be that group’s homeland, without prior personal citizenship in that country. This belief is sometimes reflected in special consideration in a country’s immigration laws which facilitate or encourage the reunion of a diaspora or dispersed ethnic population.
see wikipedia.
5. Those whose IDs list them as belonging to the ?Arab sector? are not called by the enumerator.?
You are amazing, do you really think the Arab Israeli Muslim want to be enlisted in the Army to fight thier Palestinian brothers ?
Did you know that orthodox jews are also not enlisted, while Druze and Bedouins of the north are inlisted.
This has nothing to do with racism. BTW there are some (not many) Arab Israeli Muslims in the IDF, they can always volunteer if they like.
If this is a discriminate in anyway it is discriminate against jews, druze and Bedouins in the most part.
Joining the military carries very little personal benefit as opposed to what one can achieve in those three years.
The “financial benefits” for serving in the IDF is around 50$ a month, in comparison the minimum wage in Israel which is around 700$ a month.
6. Regarding the Bedouins: The process of integrating the Bedouin into Israeli society takes place on two levels ? the formal, i.e., by government policy; and the informal, i.e., by changing relationships with Israeli society in general and Jewish society in particular.
The process, as may be expected, is fraught with “natural” difficulties experienced by this cultural group:
the transition from a traditional, conservative society which only a generation ago was nomadic, entails relinquishing values, customs and a traditional economy;
the Bedouin have to cope with the process of urbanization ? the very antithesis of their nomadic tradition ? and the attending poverty and crime rate;
the Bedouin to some extent fail to distinguish between objective difficulties and those connected with their changing sub-culture and thus feel an exaggerated sense of deprivation.
Yet a comparison of the situation of the Bedouin in Israel to that in Arab countries will show that Israeli Bedouin enjoy conditions that their brethren lack, mainly in two areas: welfare and land ownership.
Israel?s attitude towards its Bedouin citizens has always been positive. Well aware of the difficulties of the Bedouin and based on a thorough knowledge of the subject, the last two governments have begun taking steps to solve the problems with unprecedented determination and allocation of the necessary funds.
A Ministerial Committee for the Advancement of Bedouin Affairs, comprising ten government ministers has been set up and, over the next four to five years, billions of NIS will be allotted for the implementation of the new programs. The Minister of National Infrastructure, who is responsible for construction and housing as well as for the Israel Lands Administration, has been empowered to negotiate with the Bedouin regarding land rights and has adopted a policy of a “once-and-for-all” solution to those problems.
Yes there are many problems in this country I agree. Many poor jewish communities also exist in Israel, look up SEDEROT and YERUHAM and others. Not everything is about race.
7. “These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid.”
This is rubish and frankly it angers me that you can’t see it. Here is the apartheid system:
Apartheid was implemented by the law. The following restrictions were not only social but were strictly enforced by law (the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act specifically allowed government to provide different levels of amenities for the different races):
Non-whites were not allowed to run businesses or professional practices in those areas designated as ‘white South Africa’ without a permit. They were supposed to move to the black homelands and set up businesses and practices there.
Transport and civil facilities were segregated.
Blacks were excluded from living or working in white areas, unless they had a pass. Only blacks with “Section 10″ rights (those who had migrated to the cities before World War II) were excluded from this provision. Whites required passes in black areas.
A pass was only issued to a black person with approved work. Spouses and children had to be left behind in non-white areas. Many white households employed blacks as domestic workers, who were allowed to live on the premises? often in small rooms external to the family home.
A pass was issued for one magisterial district confining the holder to that area only.
Being without a valid pass made a person subject to immediate arrest and summary trial, often followed by deportation to the person’s homeland. Police vans roamed the “white” areas to round up the “illegal” blacks.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
Non of this applies in Israel unless you stretch and twist reality to fit Anti-Zionist propaganda.
I can twist and stretch the fact that your country gives benifits to member of its church and call that religious apartheid if stretch the truth and twist far enough.
Now, I will also ask from now on that you use objective sources as much as possible to back yourself up. I try to do so most of the time I think.
Thomas, a Dane
regarind what you say in post 109.
Are you even reading what I am spending so much time to write ?
You think that sorry execuse of a replay can hold against what I wrote in 105 ???
“Are you saying that this gives Israel a moral carte blanche to indiscriminately kill up to 500 Lebanese civilians”
What is this ??? Can’t you understand that I am referring to the fact that civilians die in war ?! even when someone tries to avoid it and its not the intention of the war !
When you have nothing logical to argue you just go back and use empty platitudes such as:
“Hell, why don?t we just give a go-ahead with no limit – after all what does the lives of a bunch Lebanese piss ants matter when they try to ruin your apartheid picknick?!?”
Common I thought you were above this …
and the “Mars Attack” example is suppose to be funny I guess …
I am waiting for a worthwhile replay from you regarding what I wrote in 105.
Thomas, a Dane
I still didn’t even understand what you are claiming:
a. Israel’s war on Hizbullah is justified but the means are not.
b. Israel’s war is not justified and we should surrender to all Hizbullah’s demands.
c. Israel’s wars are never justified since we have no right to exist us jews should just pack up our things and go drown in the sea.
If you answer this it will be a little easier to focus on something instead of trying to solve all the problems in the world.
MAD with ANGER,
Don’t you see that if Hizbullah would put as much effort into evacuating the south as they do in shooting Katiusha rockets into Israel everyone would already be evacuated and safe ? Ok you say you don’t support what Hizbullah has done to start this war. What do you think Israel can do ? Do we not have a right to defend ourselves from them ? Isn’t Lebanon at least partially responsible for allowing this terrorist group to gain so much military power in Lebanon in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1559 from September 2, 2004 which includes disbanding of the military wing of Hezbollah. Why don’t the 70000 Lebanese soldiers confront Hezbollah ?
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1559
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14034540/
Israel expresses ‘deep regret’ after U.N. strike
3 observers killed, 4th feared dead; Annan calls hit ?apparently deliberate?
MISTAKE ALSO????
to roy from haifa
Hezbolla is part of the Lebanese nation whether all lebanese agree or not. their actions are not always justified YES, but we cannot risk to involve the lebanese arfmy. The Lebanese Army is not a tool to be used in order to ignite a Civil War (majority of lebanese are shiites). The lebanese government is doing the best it can to solve this problem, but you and I and everybody else knows that this is not easy. it is a much wider problem that involves syria and iran. whereas israel is backed by the US, lebanon is not backed by anyone. lebanon always has and still is the playground for middle east conflict, and as im seeing it, will continue to be so for quite some time. so excuse me if i dont agree with what your country is doing and the fact that the strongest country on earth is supporting you and not us.
You say israel has the intention of making peace, therefore peace starts by liberating all prisoners, evacuating occupied land and delivering the land mine maps.
You should understand that Hizbolla is not a full time soldiers. They are people who believe (whether one agrees with them is another matter) that they have to liberate their land from occupation.
take away all pretexts and then you shall have peace. this is not might makes right, this is not the weak surrendering because they’re weak. it is a time for the strong to act up and say, OK, we will be the bigger person for the sake of peace. dont you think?
to roy from haifa
Hezbolla is part of the Lebanese nation whether all lebanese agree or not. their actions are not always justified YES, but we cannot risk to involve the lebanese arfmy. The Lebanese Army is not a tool to be used in order to ignite a Civil War (majority of lebanese are shiites). The lebanese government is doing the best it can to solve this problem, but you and I and everybody else knows that this is not easy. it is a much wider problem that involves syria and iran. whereas israel is backed by the US, lebanon is not backed by anyone. lebanon always has and still is the playground for middle east conflict, and as im seeing it, will continue to be so for quite some time. so excuse me if i dont agree with what your country is doing and the fact that the strongest country on earth is supporting you and not us.
You say israel has the intention of making peace, therefore peace starts by liberating all prisoners, evacuating occupied land and delivering the land mine maps.
You should understand that Hizbolla is not a full time soldiers. They are people who believe (whether one agrees with them is another matter) that they have to liberate their land from occupation.
take away all pretexts and then you shall have peace. this is not might makes right, this is not the weak surrendering because they’re weak. it is a time for the strong to act up and say, OK, we will be the bigger person for the sake of peace. dont you think?
Thomas,
Do not get sucked in by the likes of Roy and Vadim, they are “playing” you. This is an established propaganda technique used by Zionist organisations. Throw out alot of distorted, biased, poorly substantianted garbage, nitpick over the finest details of your argument, then challenge you to refute it all. They will just go on and on and on and on until you spend all day writing refutations of their spurious claims. Then, when you see the futility of it all and give up, they will beat their chests and claim some kind of “victory”. Just ignore them, they’re not worth it!
Roy,
You continue to compare apples to oranges and strain yourself to justify actions that nobody with any respect for liberty, the value of human life, or human rights can justify.
1. That the state church is the only religious sect that can collect contributions by using the tax apparatus is not fair and I have admitted that. The only fair solutions would be that either ALL or NONE of the religious sects can use the tax apparatus.
It takes time to change the constitution, the current status is not fair, and the unfairness has been remedied as far as currently possible. You are looking for a ghost in the closet where there is no closet to be found!
I am not denying anything, merely pointing out that it is not a matter of life or death, nobody is forced to support a religion they don’t want to belong to, and claiming that this is a violation of basic human rights is simply far out.
Please note that I am not saying anything like: “Anyway, it is not nearly as bad as the discriminatoy practices in Israel!”. I refuse to accept that two wrongs make one right, which seems to be the basic principle you build all your justifications and excuses on!
2. OK, now I have stopped laughing!
“?One of the reasons is that Danes favor negotiation and compromise over military agression at all times.?
My god you can?t be serious ? Who exatly can you make war with in your region even if you wanted to in such a lovely peaceful neighbourhood.”
Are you serious?!? Are you actually saying that the reason why Danes favor negotiation and compromise is that we lack a good excuse to declare war on somebody? And that Israelis favor military agression because you are much better at picking a fight? LOL
I have not claimed that Israel is responsible for all hostility in the Middle East, what I have mentioned is a concept that you either do everything you can to ignore or simply cannot understand: If Israel had not violated international law for decades by carrying out a violent occupation of Palestine in order to steal a bit more land than it is entitled to, then there would be a hell of a lot less hostility in your neighborhood. Who knows? Maybe you would even be sitting with the problem of finding somebody to aim your military agression at ;)
“I feel as if I am talking with a descendant of Marie Antoinette ?
Can you see the analogue ?”
Not really!
3. Ignored as promised.
4. Again, apples and oranges, a good masure of denial, and two-wrong-one-right justification!
“What started this was my following quote:
?Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !?”
Well, http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html
“I didn?t say one word about who is entiled to citizenship. Keeping that in mind I was referring to the 1.3 million arab israelis.”
Exactly, and ignoring a very central UN resolution in the conflict about the Arab Israelis in diaspora that you refuse the right to return and to recognize as having a right to be Arab Israelis!
There is the definition of “right of return” which reflects a belief about a right and then there is the very specific definition of “Right of Return” in a certain UN Resolution that has nothing to do with belief in a right, but is a right based on international law!!!!
5. “You are amazing, do you really think the Arab Israeli Muslim want to be enlisted in the Army to fight thier Palestinian brothers ?”
Actually, I know that most Arab Israeli Muslims do not want to join the Army for exactly that reason. That can only be expected and it IS expected by your legislators which is why several benefits are tied being a ‘veteran’ of the Israeli military! That is one of the things I referred to when I wrote:
“It is a public secret that the Knesset is famous for its ability to create apartheid laws without mentioning the words ?Jews? and ?non-Jews?!”
Btw, thank you for the compliment. My wife thinks I am pretty amazing too :)
6. “?natural? difficulties experienced by this cultural group:
the transition from a traditional, conservative society which only a generation ago was nomadic”
“Israel?s attitude towards its Bedouin citizens has always been positive.”
Something just does not add up! You say they were nomads, my understanding is that they have been living in villages on their land in the Negev for generations! And, if they and their villages were not recognized by the Israeli government and they were denied simple civil infrastructure, somebody’s attitude cannot always have been positive!
The latest aricle I could find was written in December of 2005. Did something extremely positive happen since then to make up for the not so positive treatment until then?
“…over the next four to five years, billions of NIS will be allotted…”
There have been too many wonderful plans and intentions that have been dropped instead of passing the Knesset, so the “will be” makes me a bit suspicious at the moment. How much is a NIS? Is it worth anything or is it one of the obscure currencies with a million units to a USD? (I am not trying to slam your currency, but I would like to know what kind of sums we are talking about).
7. I know that you do not have South African Apartheid in Israel, but just because you do not have “Jews Only” signs on your toilets, that does not mean that you do not have any aparthid laws (the Israeli Apartheid) that discriminate, segregate, and humiliate.
Check the link under item 4.
Yuvi,
With all due respect, your disgusting racist ranting says more about you than it does about any of the other posters on this page. By the way Yuvi, most of the source material I have used for my postings were from academically respected JEWISH sources.
well said Paul.
Adam:
Talmud is, as you know, (?????) is a record of rabbinic discussions of Jewish law, ethics, customs, and stories, which are authoritative in Jewish tradition.
You are free to stick to it, however, in the Deuteronomy 5:17, it is clearly stated.
Moreover, John I-10~13
10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him.
12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
The light is there Adam, you just need to listen to The Eternal’s voice and pray for his Forgiveness.
Yuvi,
“i hope you people know about arabs BLOOD REVENGE”. what the hell does that mean, have you lived in an ARAB country, im trying to use your words, that’s all. it does strike you to the bone that most of the people in the world despise you that much, right?????? i dont blame them.
and for your own information, arabs not only means muslims. just a little lesson for you.
and tell me yuvi, from where did the 1st jews come from(to israel before it was created)?????? from AFRICA?????? or south AMERICA????? OR MAYBE ASIA????? NO, i think it was ANTARCTICA?????? hmmmmm lemme think, ohhh yesss from EUROPEEEEE tooo
god, you make me sick
“i hope you people know about arabs BLOOD REVENGE” … “oh by the way mr thomas of dane (i guess you from denemark) , keep doing your lovley danish butter cookie , and stop enter to conflict you don?t understnad , sit peacefully in your lovley(sic) house , i don?t want you get any scrath (for god sake nooo!!!!).” … “by the way , do you people know that 99% of the prostitution that going on in europe is cause the morocon(sic) and turkish immigration ???, all the whores? are from east europe (russia , ukrain , moldova etc), and they forced to work in this job cause those people are threatning their life.”
OK Yuvi, I accept your argument. These are not the rantings of a sick racist buffoon, they are the reasoned musings of a man who “loves everyone”!
Why are you guys fighting. As I said before the solution to this problem is very very simple. All the Arabs should accept Israel supremacy and do what the jews say. That includes Hamas, Hizbullah, Iran, Iraq etc etc. They cant win against Israel. Israel got Americal guns, ships and bombs. They got nukes, man. So lets just chill out, accept their demands and chill out. The only reason children are dying is the inability of the Arabs to accept their impotence!
Thomas, Again you like when life is easy.
You don’t put much effort in refuting what I wrote you just repeat yourself and jump to conclusions in a futile attempt to wear me out me.
I will keep it simple this time:
1. I will repeat then, the world is an imperfect place, people are suspicious of one another and ethnic/religious biased laws exist even in the most peaceful regions of scandinavia.
You want a perfect world, that is very nice, but in every direction I point you to show you that it’s not you say “ok that’s not nice too”.
In theory I too think people should live together without countries, religion and race to seperate them.
One nation called earth with everyone united !
In reality if enough people hate you because you are a jew, you have no choice but to stick together under whatever common denominator you have, and protect yourself.
When real evidence presents itself that our enemies will start to really accept us,
I will be the first to call for dismantling the IDF.
In the middle east things are far more flammable and unpredictable.
2. You seem to be showing a total inability to understand arguments. I wonder if this is real or its just a form of twisting things around like you do to zionism.
You really can’t understand that the middle east is a far more aggressive region than yours ???
This is what I mean “Marie Antoinette”.
If there is no bread why not eat cakes ?
Hizbullah and Israel can get along just like Denmark and Norway … Jeewiz.
You have never seen a ruthless enemy willing to give his life and his families life just to get a piece of you, that’s why you can’t understand.
Just like Marie Antoinette could not understand how come there are people hungry in this world … she has never seen such things …
And spare me your anti-semitism in disguise saying that we deserve it because of what we did to Palestinians.
Is Hizbullah representing them on behalf of the Lebenese people ?
AND: you failed to address the other non-israeli-related wars that have occured in the region.
You are showing extreme ignorance by continuing to claim that the middle east and scandinavia are alike.
3. This will pop up some time in the future … Meantime make like an ostrich.
4. Unlike Security Council Resolutions under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, UN General Assembly Resolutions have only a recommendatory character.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_194
However I admit this is a tough one.
Here we must be practical, If all the Palestinian refugees and their descendants (estimates range between 5 and 8 million people) were to settle within Israel this would lead to a demographic shift which would end Israel’s status as a Jewish state, as Israel’s current population is composed of about 5.5 million Jews and 1.3 million Muslims. Some also argue that if a large proportion of the exiled Palestinians were to return, catastrophic overpopulation would result.
You can’t ask us to commit suicide in the name of righteousness.
Besides this is outdated, now the talks are of a Palestine state. The right of return will be to that state.
If there is a right of return to Israel why do they also need a Palestine state ?
a Palestine state will be created one day, I am sure of it.
There is nothing Israelis wish more than to live in peace with such a state.
5. So we say its unfair we don’t enlist them — but then you say know they don’t want to enlist ? You are driving me insane :-).
“legislators which is why several benefits are tied being a ?veteran? of the Israeli military”
My god you have finally crossed the line. Which propaganda site did you take this one from ?
This reminds me of the poor man’s lamb allegory.
These benefits are moslty financial and are ment to cut for some of the financial losses that between the age of 18-21 I will earn 50$ a month while other not joining the army will make at least 700$ a month, or finish thier first degree in that time.
There is no calculator on earth that will show there is some sort of personal benifit joining the israeli army. This is really preposterous.
This example has made it clear you know nothing about israel expect what you find in anti-zionist sites.
If you had lived here you would know this.
6. One USD is 4.432 NIS (the latest from Yahoo currency quoter) :-).
“And, if they and their villages were not recognized by the Israeli government”
Why do you say that ? what about: Rahat, Tel Sheva, Aro?er, Keseifa, Segev Shalom, Hura, Lakiya …
Are you sure you REALLY know what you are taking about ?
7. Oh you know that ? that’s wonderful. please refrain from using that term in the future unless you wish to create false propaganda. What you are doing is inflation of the term apartheid.
Its like calling someone working 8 hours a day 5 days a week a slave.
Yuvi I suggest you stay away, you are not really helping. Thanks.
Thankyou Roy, you have just proved the point I made in comment 122!
… Although I do respect you greatly Roy for making a stand against the more bigoted posters in this forum!
… whatever “side” of the argument they are on.
Yes Paul its those bad jewish zionists taking over the world ! You knew it all along, Bravo ! Lets throw out these zionists and then we could all congratulate ourselves and no one will argue with us anymore !
I will give credit to Thomas that he is at least using logic and I respect that. So let the adults talk and stay out if you don’t have something intelligent to add.
Pual I wonder howcome I am using “established propaganda technique used by Zionist organisations” by trying to debate with Thomas. What would you call showing horrific pictures of dead children corpses after happy israeli children signing bombs ? Is that a better way to make a point in your eyes ?
Roy, When did I say “lets throw out these zionists and then we could all congratulate ourselves and no one will argue with us anymore”? I am sorry Roy, but you are not going to bully me out of this forum some poor Palestinian refugee who is getting in the way!
If I may interject here,
Roy, knock off the “you hate us because we are Jews/anti-semitism” malarkey. Please state it like it is, that several of us here are opposed to Zionism, NOT JEWS!!! This is the ploy that Zionists use all the time which really irks me. It is Zionist’s GOALS and BEHAVIOR which we are opposed to, NOT your Judaic faith, that is unless you think your faith tells you that you are superior to non-Jews because that would certainly NOT be very egalitarian :)
Before you jump down my throat, please explain to me why not ALL Jews are Zionists? Why are there so many Jews in Israel opposing the agression in Lebanon and the occupation of Palestine? Why is it that those speaking out against Zionist aggression in YOUR country think that your government’s actions are HORRENDOUS and call the occupation a “cancer for Israel” and “apartheid against the Palestinians”? And lastly, what is your opinion of your fellow citizens who are not supportive of Zionist policies?
Robin:
I didn’t say anti-zionism is anti-semitism. I was referring to a comment by Paul, number 122, claiming that me and Vadim are engaging in some sort of zionist conspiracy. I was sarcastically refering to the Pual’s Roy-Vadim zionist conspiracy theory as direct continuance of the “Protocols of the Elders in Zion” conspiracy theory. Regarding the rest of your anti-zionist accusations, its really nothing but slogans and empty platitudes. I suggest you read my posts before categorizing me and the zionists.
“what is your opinion of your fellow citizens who are not supportive of Zionist policies”
In Israel we have something called pluralism, there is no “zionist policies” many zionists share different views about many different issues, believe it or not. There is a wide range of opinions, everything from zionist pacifists to zionist fascists.
Roy,
Thanks for responding. But now I have a few more questions resulting from your post. I realize that you have pluralism in your country, but are you saying that all Israelis are Zionists be it from one extreme to the other by virtue of the fact that they live in Israel? Because it is definitely my impression that there are many Jews who reside in Israel who claim they are not Zionists, and that the Zionists have taken God’s work into their own hands and therefor it is a sin against Judaism?
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
What say you?
Roy, with all due respect, you are at it again. You have wilfully distorted all that I have been writing, and I really don’t care anymore, as anyone who takes the trouble to read the postings, and also the source material will see that what you are writing is a gross distortion. It really does you no favours at all to present your argument in this way. It is also becoming extremely boring!
It appears that the US have been smuggling 5000 lb “bunker busting” bombs into Israel through Prestwick airport in Scotland (without telling the UK), so you can probably expect to see the Messianic’s above kissing MUCH bigger bombs in the future!
SIMPLY MORE FRAUDULENT PICTURES. One can make pics with Adobe Photoshop or other photo editing software to depict anything they want. I could create a pic of the “prophet” Mohammed having sex with a pig. The pictures are contrived to stir up the hate in the minds of the weak easily deceived types who are not intelligent enough to question their authenticity.
The Islamic Fascist only wants one thing and that is the destruction of Israel. The only way to have peace is to destroy fanatic Islam. Wipe it out.
Lebanon is responsible for what occurs within its borders. Israel is having to do what Lebanon won’t and that is to eradicate the vermin and/or infestation of Hezbollah terrorists.
PS – Clarification: I am referring to the pictures alleging that Jews are signing the bombs as fraudulent. I am not questioning the authenticity of the pictures depiciting the dead.
Bunker Busting Bombs
Robin,
Well I would say most Israelis are zionists, among the zionist are also more radical left wing parties like Merets, they too are zionist, they define themselves as such too. There is also “Peace Now” movement which are zionists mostly. Most zionists believe that israel should be a jewish state, while at the sametime be a state of all its citizens. I don’t think any israeli citizen should be discriminated against if he is not jewish.
I wouldn’t say there are many jewish non-zionists, but there are some, most of which do live in Israel.
Israel’s right to exist, in my eyes is just the same as any other country in the world, I was born here, my parents were too and I have no where else to go. I also think we should share this land peacefully with our neighbours and allow the Palestinians self definition as well, but the past 13 years makes me think the feeling is not mutual in most cases yet. I really hope this will change some day.
Anyway this current war with Lebanon should have nothing to do with the Palestinians. I don’t think the Lebenese want thier land to be a battlefield for the Palestinians or for anyone else.
Paul,
I don’t think they were smuggling at all :) I heard on the news yesterday or the day before that Congress had approved the emergency sale of these weapons. Smuggling? BAHHHHHHHHHH. The US IS the greatest nation on earth and certainly should not have to follow Scotlands laws like mere mortals :( (Hope that EVERYONE is accutely aware of my sarcasm) And didn’t you know, the Mideast is simply experiencing “birthpangs”, says our never-married childless neo-con Secretary of the Zionist Mafia State. I am freaking SICK of my country’s response to this matter. I have never in my entire life seen a country act as callously and inhumanely than the US right now. Israel is systematically destroying an entire country!! They are also acting supposedly on our behalf in the “war on terror” so this as our deed also. This damn country I am a citizen of it every bit as responsible if not MORE so for aiding and abetting with the weaponry and loans. PLEASE everyone, PLEASE know that there are a great MANY Americans against this and that we who are against this are being held hostage by this too. I didn’t vote for this Fascist Pig idiot and I CERTAINLY did not vote for AIPAC!! I feel like I’ve been put in some kind of Israeli limbo-land! Are those bombs up above American made bombs? Can’t America see what they are doing?!!!!!!!? Sorry, but I’m getting a wee bit MAD AS HELL!
Paul,
I am sure these bunker busting bombs are ment to kill civilians as we all know the lebenese live in underground bunkers.
Jeewiz, I really hope you don’t need me to explain my sarcastic comment …
I would really appreciate if someone could replay to my comment number 117, that way we can focus on something and make some progress …
I also would like to ask Robin, how did the 9/11 terror act against your country make you feel and what do you think should have been done by your country after it ?
Dear Haitham,
I am proud of my brothers who have slained 8 terrorists and 22 terrorists heavily wounded. We have long suffered and our mujhahids are fighting back to protect our people and our generations. Every mother, sister, daughter, son now can atleast hope that our mujahids protect their woman. It is shame on other mujahids who havent joined hands against a common enemy. It is shame on them for they do alot of propaganda but do little to protect their people.
Shame on all iraqi men that they fight with each other rather than fighting the U.S. U.S sells even dead bodies and organs of our people. U.S is far more worse than vultures.
I am proud of you my brother, that atleast you are trying to make people aware of the attrocities against our people. May god bless you and give you the will in these difficult time to wakeup the dead soles of our leaders.
Communication Styles for Hasbara
DEAR ALL,
I AM CONVINCED IT’S TIME TO GIVE AN END TO ALL THE WARS IN THIS EARTH, IT’S TIME TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE PEACE TO GET PLACE.
WAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMANITY, WAR DOESN’T ALLOW PEOPLE TO GROW,WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO GROW IN PEACE, IN FREEDOM, RESPECTING OUR NEIGHBOURS’ RIGHTS.
IT’S TIME TO GIVE PALESYINIAN THEIR LAND, TO GIVE ISRAELI THEIR LAND, TO GIVE ALL PEOPLES THEIR LANDS.
IN THE NAME OF GOD, WE ALL, ALL NATIONS SHOULD DO AND COOPERATE AND INVEST IN PEACE RATHER THAN INVESTING IN WEAPONS;VIOLENCE IS AGAINST GOD TEACHINGS.
GOD BLESSES TO ALL OF YOU.
ALDO
to Thomas, Mad with Anger, Robin, and others who criticize Israel
I would like to focus our discussion and to try to show you that the things are not as simple as they can seem. It seems to me that many of you have some kind of hypocritical, saint position, as if you were a Martian who landed on this earth yesterday and cannot understand what is going on here. Why there are wars on earth ? Why there are criminals on earth ? Why there are states, borders, armies, police, weapons ? Why do the people not just live in peace with each other ? If there is a war, why are civilians killed ? Why do the fighting armies just kill each other without killing civilians ? Why if some human being hits another one, why the injured one must return back ? Why he just cannot talk to the offender and explain him that the offender is wrong and ask him not do it again ?
It is very hard to have discussions with the Martians. You start to explain them – “you know – this world is not perfect, each state must have army and defend itself…” They simply do not understand what you are talking about. “So why your country cannot be perfect ? Why do you need to defend your country ? Can’t you fight terrorists without hitting civilian population ?” and so on.
So to focus the discussion, I would like to present to you some abstract, philosophical questions about morality in practice. I think you can answer these questions without being emotional, since they are abstract and do not relate to Israel/Palestinians/Lebanon and so on.
1. Imagine you and your family walk peacefully in a street, imagine also that you have a gun for some reason (no matter what reason – you are a policemen, a hunter, etc.) . Imagine some criminal on the street starts shooting on you (no matter for what reason, suppose he is just crazy and started a killing spree and he for some reason picked exactly your family to kill) Imagine you have no place to hide and you cannot run away. Also, suppose the criminal is amid the crowd of innocent people, who also have problems to hide or run away. What would you do in such situation ?
a. Let the criminal kill you and your family and let the authorities handle the situation later (catch the criminal and put him on trial)
b. Try to shoot back and kill the criminal, while risking to injure the civilians he is amid ? You can try your best to hit exactly the criminal, but you can miss and kill somebody who has nothing to do with the criminal, who does not hate you and whom you also do not hate.
2. What do you think a justice court should do to a person, who chose the option b. in the previous question, killed the criminal and accidentally killed one innocent person.
a. Accuse him of murder – according to ?Bonus Pater? he should know that he can injure civilians if he shoots into the crowd
b. Accuse him of manslaughter – he did not kill the innocent civilian intentionally, but he is still guilty
c. Acquit him – he had no choice, and he tried to minimize the casualties in the incident
Your answers are welcome.
??? ????? ??? ?????????.?? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????????. ?? ????? ?? ?????? ? ????? ?????????? ?????, ????? ??? ????????, ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? , ??????? ??????? ?? ????????????, ?? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????, ?? ?????? ????????. ? ??? ?? ?????? ???????????? ?? ??? ????????? ????? ???? ?????? , ??????? ??? ??? ? ?????! ? ?????????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????????, ??????? ????? ???????????? ? ??????. ??? ?????????? ? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? – ??? ?????! ?????? ??? ?????, ? ??????, ? ?????, ? ?????? ???? ? ????????? ??????. ????? ?? ?????? ?? ????????, ??????? ???? ? ????? ???????? ????????????. ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ???????, ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????, ? ??? ???? ???? ? ?????? ????????? ? ??.???????. ??????????? ???! ????? ????????????? ??, ??????????, ????? ???????? ????????? ?????, ????? ?? ????, ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ? ??????! ????? ?? ? ?????? ????? ????!
Roy, I honestly think that war will bring only sorrow and pain for both sides. the solution to this specific problem will be reached through a diplomatic effort, and not through military means.
I refer to the experience of the Brits against IRA, it took thgem 10 years to understand the matter: a regular army cannot win over a guerilla, so please start thinking and make your voices heard.
The state of Israel is waging a war. Justified or not, that is not the debate, it is whether it is the most appropriate measure to be taken ??
When will this bloodshed stop ? When will people look at each other and realise that what they have done, whether on the Moslem Arab side or the Jewish side, slams all God’s teaching into the wall?
Vadim, I think you are getting too theoretical and dropping out of the subject.
I think the aim for this debate is to show that people who live in a perimeter of few kilometers can talk to each other while their states are at war. Personnaly, I am glad to be able to talk to people who live in Haifa or in Galilee, and I hope you share that feeling too. I dont see you pointing a gun at my face if you disagree;)
vadim,
imagine that “criminal” still have the key and the tittle to the house u currently live in with your peacfull family, imagine he has to go thru a check point every single day for 4 yrs straight , imagine him watching his 16 yr old getting kidnapped from his home at 2:00 am in the morning by a 100 heavily armed soldiers, imagine him looking his brothers and sisters not being able to go to sleep at night because the haven’t eaten for a few days , imagine him witnessing his 75 yr old father get humiliated infront of him ..
the facts are all around u .. u just choose to look the other way .
Vadim, with all due respect, neither side in this conflict, or this discussion should EVER turn war and murder into an “abstract” concept. It is manipulative and wrong!
Antoine, I would be happy if the aim of this debate be “to show that people who live in a perimeter of few kilometers can talk to each other while their states are at war.” Let’s make this debate this way !
Personally, I am glad to talk to Lebanese people. It is exciting that ordinary people can talk while their states are at war. Who could imagine something like this before the advent of the Internet !
Take my word that no Israeli is pointing a gun at your face, Israel fights Hezbollah, not you.
Why can’t we have some theoretical debate here in order to be able to better understand each other ? We should have some common language, some basic understandings, before we can seriously discuss what happens in our complicated reality.
Adam,
I asked here some abstract question, and I would like you to answer this question AS-IS. You can ask your own abstract questions and I will try to answer them.
As for your question – I still think that the criminal with the key has no moral right to kill me and my family, no matter how hard his life is.
to Paul
If we want to understand each other, I think we should create some common language, some common definitions, what is “white” and what is “black”. For this purpose, I would like to ask you these abstract questions. Are they so hard for you to answer ? The life is complicated, and it poses some hard questions to answer.
Vadim
The plot you have put is a mere metaphore for the actual situation.
How could you expect objective answer for the scenario you have wrote?
Replace You and Your family with the state of Israel, the criminal with Hezbolla, and the police with the UN-US, and the civlians by the lebanese or palestinian population.
You understand when I do not want to debate theoretical settings when the underlaying foundations of the question is hard reality.
Let’s call an apple an apple. and a peer a peer.
Why do you get all these people mad at the state of Israel ?
I have tried numerous times to think about that, the only rationnal answers were a mixture between crooked arab regimes, dictatorships and the Palestinian tragedy.
For in order for dicators to keep their people busy without having them think of their own situations, there must be an exernal ennemy that maintains the regime.
Zionism has given the likes of Assad and Saddam the pretext to cling on to their power: The Palestinian Dilemma.
I do not mean that the Palestinian Authority is not partly responsible as well for what has happened to the palestinian people, as I recall Arafat words when he declared that the road to Haifa passed by Jounieh while he was busy building a state inside a state in Lebanon.
If the State of Israel finds a solution to the Palestinian Cause, this will rob leaders in the Arab world from most of their alibis and one cannot but witness their regimes fall and crumble to pieces.
I just want to say that these photos, as well as the ones of the children signing the shells, are some of the most powerful and disturbing pictures I have ever seen.
There are nearly six billion people that need to see these photos.
Please keep them available as long as possible>
And Thank You
Roy,
The discussion with you seems fruitless (just as Paul predicted). You are not bringing any new arguments, just repeating the same with disregard to the counter-arguments I have provided you.
Therefore, the only topic I am willing to continue to discuss with you (until you start running in circles) is point 4 about the right of return.
You said: “Here we must be practical, If all the Palestinian refugees and their descendants (estimates range between 5 and 8 million people) were to settle within Israel this would lead to a demographic shift which would end Israel?s status as a Jewish state, as Israel?s current population is composed of about 5.5 million Jews and 1.3 million Muslims. Some also argue that if a large proportion of the exiled Palestinians were to return, catastrophic overpopulation would result.
You can?t ask us to commit suicide in the name of righteousness.
Besides this is outdated, now the talks are of a Palestine state. The right of return will be to that state.”
And you accuse people of dropping in from Mars! The right of return, based on international law, is NOT outdated just because Israel has ignored it for half a century and the talks have been about a Palestinian state for just as long. You have an outstanding debt that you have refused recognize regardless of which arguments you try to pull out of your hat.
You are occupying areas outside your country?s borders that you have absolutely NO claim to whatsoever. That is the first installment of the debt you owe to the Palestinians. You are refusing to recognize the right of return of (in you numbers) 5-8 million people with absolutely NO warrant to do so according to international law. That is the second installment of the debt you owe to the Palestinians.
To use your words; I am not asking you to commit suicide in the name of righteousness. What I am asking you is not to continue the killing of your neighbors just because you think righteousness is impractical.
Here is a practical solution for you in order to settle you debt with the Palestinians:
You tell Hamas and the Palestinian people that you will repay the first installment of your debt and get the fuck off their land if A) they hold a referendum about whether the Palestinian people will accept Israel and it’s territorial integrity as well as a negotiated settlement of the right-of-return issue in return for an end to the occupation, B) if the result of the referendum is at least a two-thirds majority in favor, C) if at least a two-thirds majority is in favor of giving up all their legal claims in the right-to-return issue in return for that the second installment of your debt is paid with, say, 10,000 square kilometers of the Negev Dessert to be declared as part of Palestine, and D) the whole deal will be permanent if all attacks on Israel have ceased within 12 months.
In the name of being practical, this will force Hamas to have to accept the existence of Israel unless that is not in accordance with the wish of the population (in which case there is no real change in status quo). You will also accomplish that a significant majority of Palestinians will show the minority that continuously attacking Israel is not in ‘support’ of the Palestinian people – which will allow them to effectively deal with extremists (and you can always reverse if they fail to do so). Third, and probably most importantly for you, you do not have 5-8 million people threatening to dilute the majority of your superior race in Israel ;)
If you genuinely want peace, then you have to accept that there are some claims based on international law that you cannot run away from and that the only practical alternatives require that you give up all wet dreams about a Greater Israel and about keeping any land beyond your internationally recognized borders.
“Unlike Security Council Resolutions under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, UN General Assembly Resolutions have only a recommendatory character.”
No matter what you dream up of argumentation there is NO way you can deny the validity of the debt you owe to the Palestinians under international law. No way at all!
Roy,
You ask how I felt on 9/11. First off, it was not Palestinians or Lebanese who were the terrorists in this situation, it was Al Qaeda.
We all know who they are here, right? Their leader, OBL is Saudi, DIABOLICAL, and very much the creation of my own country who paid him well during the war in Afghanistan as he and his fellow mujahaadin buddies fought the Russians along with their Taliban buddies, doing the job that our own military was not really too good at, fighting guerilla warfare in and unknown land. When they were done with the job that we handsomely paid them to do, he then turned upon Saudi Arabia itself for allowing our forces to use the Kingdom as a base during the first Gulf War. OBL’s public enemy number one is the Al-Saud family itself because of their close ties to the “infidels”, America. So now to the point, how did I feel that day. Nothing short of terrified, BUT I live on the West Coast, not knowing if we were under general attack, but yet fearing that we were. But you see, I also KNEW the minute the planes hit (I was actually watching the news when the second plane hit, not believing my eyes and thinking, ‘How did they get a video of it so soon’)that it was AQ. Do you want to know who my first call was to? It was to my daughter who is half Saudi and lived across town from me about an hour away. The only thing I could think of was how to get to her to protect her from possible backlash or danger. Why? Because of IGNORANT RACIST people who lump all Arabs/Moslems into one big “terrorist bag”. My next call, was to her father to make sure he was OK in KSA. Why? because it is MOSLEMS, those who cavort with “infidels” who are OBL’s number one nemesis. Am I suggesting they don’t have it in for us? That would just be a stupid statement considering the facts Absolutely not. But I would just like to set the record straight when 9/11 is constantly brought up in the so-called war on terror which doesn’t know it’s ass from a whole in the ground and sells my country a bag of garbage when it comes to supporting another TERRORIST state unequivocably when it is the ROOT CAUSE due to their own actions!!
I would very much like to talk to some Israelis who are truly interested in obtaining peace. Those who don’t give excuses for the massive civilian casualties being inflicted on Lebanon and Palestine and then turn around and say theirr own FAR FEWER civilian casualties are the cause of their MASSIVE attack and destruction of a country, someone who doesn’t answer other posters whose family is in dire danger with snide remarks, one who does not call people names such as “martians” (Vadim). Basically someone with a conscience who mourns DEEPLY ALL loss of life and wishes for it to end.
My prayers always to my brothers and sisters in humanity.
Just a view from the other side.
Born a Jew and now a non-believer.
Hezbollah was created when Israel was occupying Southern Lebanon for 20 years.
Israeli occupation created this organization and now they want to get rid of them?
They complain about Iran and Syria for arming the Hezbollah!
Let us complain about the US for arming the Israelis with the most modern weapons!
The Israelis condemn Hezbollah about ancient missles raining down on their terrortories.
Lebanon complains about state-of-art bombs killing civilians.
Israel is fully funded by the US and Lebanon is almost totally funded by their own people.
Is this a fair fight? NO!
A people fighting for their land against all odds are freedom fighters.
Israel is the occupier!
My own father was a freedom fighter in Denmark when Germany occupied his country.
He now has an extreeme dislike for Israel!
I am sick and tired of Israel whining about terrorists because they are stealing land and occupying the Palestinians for their own gain at the cost of Palestinians.
If it wasn’t for Haitham I wouldn’t know half of this!
Thank you Haitham.
This is an article published this year by a Professor from Harvard and another from Chicago. It discusses the US policies and interaction with Israel. I promise you will not find this article quoted on CNN…
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
God bless Kimmy.
to Thomas and kimmy
I would like to ask you several questions about the history of your country. During WWII, while Danish resistance movement did contributed to the anti Nazi fighting, you understand that your country was actually liberated by the Allied troops. The Allies who liberated your country, during its fighting with Nazi Germany killed about 305,000 and 600,000 civilians during bombing of German cities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Impact_of_the_attack
During WWII 1,840,000 German civilians were killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_country
You know this is how the wars are and it is the price which was paid for the liberation of Europe, including Denmark. So the Danes have very convenient moral position, they fought the German occupiers on the territory of Denmark, and the Russians, Americans and British did the “dirty work” for them fighting with the Nazi Germany on the German territory and inevitably causing large civilian population casualties. So they can ask other nations some “Martian” questions – “Why do you defend your country while putting at risk civilian population ? Just surrender, and negotiate with the attackers – like we did in WWII. If the negotiations will fail, and the attackers will not stop – like it was in our case, start resist them on your territory – this way there will be no civilian casualties on the territory of the attackers. Resist and wait until you will be liberated by someone else – he will do the dirty work for you. Why are you fighting ? Be a peaceful nation, like we are ! ”
The questions are – should the liberation of Europe not take place to prevent the German civilian casualties ? Should the Allies sacrifice more ground troops and do less bombings ? Are the Allied generals war criminals ?
Dear all,
Please protest against these hypocrites… These people of Israel dont understand the meaning of Humanity!
Please spread these fotos across the globe and especially to Mr. Bush(Prez of USA) so that the great man can help out Lebnons against innocent killings.
I am totally disturbed with these inhuman pictures of siging campaign by the Jews! May Allah show them the right path….
Thomas, you wrote :
“if at least a two-thirds majority is in favor of giving up all their legal claims in the right-to-return issue in return for that the second installment of your debt is paid with, say, 10,000 square kilometers of the Negev Dessert to be declared as part of Palestine”
This is an example of another “Martian” proposal. Thomas, do you know what is the territory of the country you are talking about ?
The territory of Israel in 1967 borders is 20,770 square kilometers. Do you propose to return half of the Israel’s territory to Palestinians ?
Vadim,,
Comparing Hezbollah to the Nazi Regime and the Zionists to the Allies is quite fallacious.
Neither Hezbollah nor Lebanon has occupied your country, whereas the Zionist regime has occupied Lebanon. From there onwards, I hope in time you will have the humility to understand this because now, you are feeling much in danger.
One day will come where you will understand the fruits of your current acts, for now, you have faith in your guns and weapons.
Please read your history books, and look at the fate of Zealots throughout history and what they brought for the jewish people
Antoine,
Israel finished occupation of Lebanon in 2000. Why Israel is attacked 6 years after it withdrew its army from Lebanon ?
I do not compare Hezbollah with the Nazis. I do claim that any war with any attacker will incur civilian casualties. However, every state should defend itself and fight the attacker. The state should strive to minimize the civilian casulties, but the civilian casulties will be inevitable, as in any war. Israel cannot and does not want to surrender as Denmark did in 1940.
To Vadim,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
Have a good day, Sir
we are all humans created from one creator we are suppose to love each other even love our ememies but from the ongoing war between israel and lebanon seems very bad it must be stop for the sake of those innocent victims including children. what i saw from the video was very horrible i was tearing down seeing very young children died when they suppose to enjoy life as they grow. i would just like to say the war should be stop for the sake of innocent children dying. i am concerned for these children its tearing my heart so badly i dont know how you feel when seeing those children. what do u feel when ur kids are shot and see them dying, isnt not bad or whatever you would feel. i mean i love children very much so this war should be stop. everybody must help by praying also because nothing is impossible with our creator.
Vadim,
You ask: “The territory of Israel in 1967 borders is 20,770 square kilometers. Do you propose to return half of the Israel?s territory to Palestinians ?”
Yes, that is my proposal.
There are only two ways you can settle the right-of-return debt you owe to the Palestinians: Either you accept that they return as Non-Jewish Israeli citizens or you offer them something of equal value instead of their right to live on Israeli territory.
The demographics (Roy’s numbers) is split like this: 5.5 million Jews/Zionists, 1.3 million non-Jewish Israelis with Israeli citicenship, and 6.5 (avg. of 5 & 8 ) million non-Jewish Israelis with a legal claim to Israeli citizenship. According to Roy, 13.3 million is the total number of people who have a legitimate claim to live in the territory of Israel with Israeli citzenship.
My proposal with a round number would give the 6.8 million (51.1%) who currently holds Israeli citizenship 10,770 square kilometers (51.9%) while the 6.5 million (48.9%) who have a claim to Israeli citizenship would get 10,000 square kilometers (48.1%) of the land as compensation for giving up a claim to Israeli citizenship. To me that sounds like a solution which fits the spirit of King Solomon (who is known for his fairness).
After the split you may even be so lucky that some of the 1.3 million non-Jewish Israelis, who are poluting you racially tidy state, choose to immigrate to Palestine which will give you an even higher clean majority within your territory.
Who put that clown with the shades into my post instead of the numeral 8 which was supposed to be there?!?
To Antoine:
I would like to tell you first of all that I enjoy the style in which you express yourself,
unlike other posts here it contains no incitement, no slogans and no accusations.
Now regarding the points you raise …
I too think this war will bring sorrow and pain however I don’t really see what choices we have.
Hezbollah is not a force to bargin with.
since Israel’s complete withdrawl from Lebanon in the year 2000 we have the following:
1. Kidnapping and killing of three israeli soldiers and kidnapping of a civilian and lunching rockets into israel.
– this without any israeli military response, and later a prisoner swap to get back the civilian and the soldiers bodies.
2. Repeated Kidnapping attempts … which failed.
This is after israel’s complete withdrawl from Lebanon to the complete satisfaction of the U.N.
So this final attack against civilians and soldiers from Lebanon was the final straw that broke the camel’s back.
We really want to live in peace with the Lebenese, but its their responsibility not to allow Hezbollah or any other militants to attack us from their territories.
We are not looking to fight the Lebanese, we did however wage war on Hezbollah and Hezbollah is fighting us from Lebanon.
Please see the following post regarding Hezbollah’s intentions and tell me if they can be bargained with ?
Thomas,
You wrote : “give up all wet dreams about a Greater Israel”
Are you claiming that significant part of Israelis dream about “Greater Israel” ? Can you support such a claim ?
BTW, are you going to answer my previous questions ?
Quotes from Hezbollah AFTER THE ISRAELI COMPLETE WITHDRAWL FROM LEBANAN (according to UN):
1. ?The Jews are a cancer spreading in the body of the Arab nation and the Islamic nation, a cancer that has spread and reached the Arab institutions, the villages and the refugee camps.?
Al-Manar (Hizballah TV)
November 23, 2004
2. ?If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.?
Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
New Yorker, October 14, 2002
3. ?The Jewish-Crusader coalition will not be safe anywhere from the fighters’ attacks. We will hit the most vital centers and we will strike against its strategic operations with all possible peaces.?
? Hezbollah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
Lebanon Daily Star, October 23, 2002
4. ?If they go from Sheba’a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine…[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.?
? Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
Can they be bargained with ?
to mortem,
I do understand what the “False analogy” is. Still I would like to start the discussion from some abstract point to have some common langauge with the critics of Israel.
Once we agree with the analogy, we can discuss what is the difference between the analogy and the real situation.
To Thomas:
You say –
“Therefore, the only topic I am willing to continue to discuss with you (until you start running in circles) is point 4 about the right of return.”
I am sorry its not going to work that way.
I worked hard to bring out many points including the issue of the right-of-return which exists in many countries.
By refusing to refer to my points you make the discussion pointless (sorry for the pun). I would expect more openness from you.
If you feel there is dispersal in the debate ok then. Lets discuss what’s happening in Lebanon, this should have nothing to do with your claims about “apartheid”, “facism” or even Palestine as far as the Lebenese should be concerned.
Vadim,
I think you need a bit of education about WWII!
The Allied forces did not fight in the war simply because they felt sorry for the militarily weak Danes, Dutch, Belgians, French etc.
Both Russia and Britain fought just as much to avoid a German invasion of their own countries while the USA fought the war because they did not want Germany to be a stronger world super power than they – and because Germany was an ally of Japan who had sucker-punched them in Pearl Harbor. Of course the Allied also realized that it is ‘much better’ to fight a war on the territory of somebody else instead of creating a horrible mess in their own front yard!
Now Denmark. Denmark was trying to negotiate for the Germans to stay out, but the Germans did not want a clear sea route between England and Russia, so an invasion was inevitable. As a country of 5 million people, do you really think we would have had a snowball’s chance in hell to fend off the Germans (who had just steam rolled Poland – a country with 20 times more people)?
I am very much in favor of practical solutions and so were my forefathers. Therefore, they decided to take off their uniforms and go home instead of ending up as a single paragraph in the history books about how the Danish army was pulverized in a few hours during the ‘Battle of Denmark’. This was a very practical solution, because it prevented that a few tens of thousand soldiers were not killed while making no dent in the German war machine, but, more importantly, it ensured that people with military knowledge could teach doctors, carpenters, shoe salesmen etc. how to fight against the German occupiers.
The Danish Resistance Movement did not win the war, but their sabotage actions against the German occupiers did a lot more damage to the German war machine than if they had fought a single battle in which they would have made close to no difference at all. The Danes chose to participate in the war efforts against Germany in the most effective way using the means available – not just sit on their asses and wait for somebody to liberate them!
Thank you, the firebombing of Dresden is a very good example to bring forward, but not as argumentation for your disregard of civilian Lebanese casualties.
The Geneva Conventions do not say anything about the justifications for war, only that since war is a horrible event that does cause civilian casualties it is necessary to follow some rules that makes sure that the horrors of war are not excessively horrible on civilians.
Many areas in the suburbs of Dresden did have military significance, but large parts of the inner city did not. Therefore, the firebombing that leveled Dresden with the ground was one of the main examples used when the principles about protection of civilians were drafted.
Partly because of Dresden (and Hiroshima and Nagasaki), the Geneva Conventions forbid targeting civilian infrastructure, civilian targets of no military significance, collective punishment of a population, and using excessive means of force in populated areas.
Bombing bridges and roads (where no tanks, artillery, or troop caravans will travel), power plants, water works, living quarters etc. are against the Geneva Conventions as it makes the horrors of war unnecessarily horrible for civilians and since it does not directly effect the war efforts of the enemy. e.g. leveling a block of flats and making surrounding blocks of flats uninhabitable just because there is an office where a few enemy bureaucrats sit and shuffle paper is a gross violation of the Geneva Conventions – especially if it is reasonable to expect that the office has already been vacated!
Vadim, my friend; Dresden just ‘blew up in your face’ ;)
Vadim,
The State of Israel Claims that they have ended the occupation in 2000. Lebanon claims that there is a parcel of land (Shebaa Farms) that is still occupied.
As for the fat of surrendering, you can therefore understand why Hezbollah doesnt as well want to surrender.
Let’s face t, Israel and Hezbollah are two faces of the same coin, it takes two to perpetuate this vicious circle fo violence.
What shuns me is the fact that people have grown into the habit of accepting death as a result of war, and please dont give me the victim rethoric, I have grown in a war torn country, and have understood that there is no solution out of a crisis by through dialogue.
And finally, WWII was not a guerilla warfare dominated war.
British vs Irish was one. Meditate on more proper analogies
Roy,
Nobody say you cannot or should not fight Hizbollah. What we are saying is: Don’t do it as an elephant in a porcelain shop and show some respect for human life of civilians – even if they think you suck big donkeys!!!!
Roy,
Nobody say you cannot or should not fight Hizbollah. What we are saying is: Don’t do it as an elephant in a porcelain shop and show some respect for human life of civilians – even if they think you suck big donkeys!!!!
To Roy from Haifa,
Once complete Lebanese territory is achieved, the “raison d’etre” of their arsenal will cease to exist. You should know better that what you read is nothing more but a “surenchere verbale”.
Hezballa guns are primarily a Lebanese matter, and it is through dialogue that such a matter can be resolved. We have opposed Palestinian+Syrian+Israeli invasions, and no one more than Lebanese people are eager for peace. What did fighting brought to us ?
Nothing
We believe in dialogue and not in guns. This is the internal stance of a major part of the Lebanese population.
Vadim,
You ask: “Are you claiming that significant part of Israelis dream about ?Greater Israel? ? Can you support such a claim ?”
No that is not what I am saying.
My point is that a group of extremist Israelis dream of ‘Greater Israel’ while a group of extremist Palestinians dream of ‘throwing Israel into the sea’. The significance of those groups are used by both sides as propaganda, they do not necessarily (I am quite sure they do not) represent the opinion of the entire Israeli or Palestinian populations, and it would be better for both parties if both the Israeli and Palestinian populations were given a chance to show that these extremists are marginalized and that they are not representative of anything!
Did I answer your questions?
To Roy from Haifa,
Once complete Lebanese territory is achieved, the “raison d’etre” of their arsenal will cease to exist. You should know better that what you read is nothing more but a “surenchere verbale”.
Hezballa guns are primarily a Lebanese matter, and it is through dialogue that such a matter can be resolved. We have opposed Palestinian+Syrian+Israeli invasions, and no one more than Lebanese people are eager for peace. What did fighting brought to us ?
Nothing
We believe in dialogue and not in guns. This is the internal stance of a major part of the Lebanese population.
Thomas,
I did not claim that the Allies fought only for the sake of the occupied Europe, they fought both for their own interests and for the sake of occupied Europe. I did not claim that Danes did nothing during the war – I did mentioned the Danish resistance.
You are still ignoring my questions :
“1. Should the Allies sacrifice more ground troops and do less bombings in the war in Germany ?
2. Are the Allied generals war criminals ?”
Vadim,
Israel is STILL occupying the “Shebaa farms” region of Lebanon, and the farmers are STILL unable to farm their land there after all this time! So your assertion that Israel ceased occupation of Lebanon in 2000 is just plain wrong. It is also one of the main reasons why Israel is still in conflict with Hizb’Allah. It is best not to try and lie / tell half truths with people who actually know the history the Middle East!
… that goes for you too Roy!
i feel like im getting a history lesson from 10 history teachers :) :) :)
i kept wanting to express more of my views regarding the aggression on lebanon, but whenever i start typing, i kept on thinking, what f i was on the other side, would i be convinced that israel should be doing this, and i always ended up saying NO NO NO. unfortunately i am not on the other side, i am in lebanon, and every day i see more ruin, more dead people, the economy going backwards, diseases starting to intensify, the sea full of oil which will take god knows how long to be clean again, infrastructure being destroyed, people fleeing their homes, reliefs not able to arrive to most villages, trucks being bombed carrying medicine and supplies to the people (im not making this up, you can all see it on LBC, JAZEERA, ARABIYYA…)
i dont know if i should feel angry, sad, devastated or indifferent. i feel confused. both sides are destroying my beautiful country, and i want it to stop.
we are all brothers and sisters, we should all learn to live in harmony, whatever is said about deeds being right or wrong, none of them would justify the horror of the matters.
i hope one day we look back at this and say, it was a waste of resources, time, and most importantly a waste of lives (from both sides).
peace to you all
Thomas:
“Nobody say you cannot or should not fight Hizbollah”
Ok now that we got that out of the way, I will refer you back to post #106 (civilian casualties of wars).
In almost every war that has occured in the past 100 years there have been civilian casualties,
Israel has dropped leaflets for civilians to leave the south,
by doing so the army loses its element of surprise, still we do so.
is that an elephant in a porcelain shop ?
Do you have a proven military tactic to strike Hizbollah that fights from Lebanon and blends withself civilian population without civilian casualties ?
Do none of the armies from post #106 know of these combat tactics ?
Paul :
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeba_Farms
“There is controversy about whether the Shebaa Farms are part of Lebanon or the Golan Heights, a region claimed by both Israel and Syria.
The region was captured by Israel from Syria during the Six Day War of 1967 and remained under Israeli control after the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon in 2000.
The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan reports that the border in this area is vague:
“There seems to be no official record of an international boundary
agreement between Lebanon and Syria that could easily establish the line”.”
In general, UN did recognize the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon as full and satisfactory. Since Israel captured this territory from Syria, it should be returned as a part of the overall agreements between Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
So who is lying here ? These are the lies Hezbollah feeds you.
I would expect Hezbollah and Syria to negotiate with Israel about the overall settlement of all the border disputes,
and not to kidnap Israeli soldiers. You call for peacefull solutions and negotiations, don’t you ?
Paul,
There seems to be a constant and deliberate attempt to disregard what is being claimed and then use any means necessary, including lies and deceit. I don’t understand why you do not want to debate this logically and honestly ? In addition to what Vadim showed you about the Sheba?a farms I will refer you back to post number 182:
“If they go from Sheba?a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine?[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.?
– Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
Thomas — that goes for you too.
to MAD with ANGER
I personally do understand you and your confusion and believe what you write about the devastation in Lebanon. I wish there would be some magic wand, that the Israeli army would use to destroy Hezbollah without harming Lebanon. But, unfortunately, on this earth there is no such a wand, this is what I am trying to tell you by all the historical comments.
Syria and Iran, are abusing your country, by using Hezbollah for achieving their own political goals.
I hope that Israel will manage to weaken Hezbollah, in such a way that the Lebanese army and the government, with the help of the International community, will be able to crack down on Hezbollah and disarm it. I hope the Lebanese army, would assume full control of the Lebanese territory and there will be no armed militias in Lebanon. I hope some day Lebanon will be fully independent from Syria and all the disputes will be resolved by negotiations between Israeli and Lebanese governments, in the same way Israel and Egypt succeeded to resolve their border disputes. We have peace with Egypt and Israelis have a good time in Sinai resorts on their vacations.
If not Hezbollah, Israel and Lebanon also would be able to live in peace.
Syria have officially acknowledged that the Shebaa farms are LEBANESE. [1] [2] Unfortunately though, we have a strange situation where Syria acknowledges that the land belongs to Lebanon, but Israel insists that it is Syrian, as they feel that this gives them a better excuse to occupy it! and just supposing that it IS Syrian, then why are Israel occupying it anyway? … I am sorry Vadim, but clinging to UN resolutions is somewhat ironic for an Israeli, as you have broken more of them than any other country!
to Paul
I think that no matter, what Syria is saying about these farms,
since Israel captured this territory from Syria, it should be returned to Lebanon or Syria, as a part of the overall agreements between Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
Still, this border dispute is not excuse for attacking Israel and kidnapping Israeli soldiers.
Vadim,
Question 1: “Should the Allies sacrifice more ground troops and do less bombings in the war in Germany ?”
I don’t think it would have had a significant effect on the Allied losses of ground troops if they had refrained from hitting civilian targets of no military significance and from using excessive means of force in populated areas.
War is horrible and both soldiers and civilians will die. If one soldier die in protection of a large number of civilians, regardless of which side they belong to, then I think that is justifiable. Killing any number of civilians, regardless of which side they belong to, in order to protect the life of one soldier, that I do not see any justification for at all.
It may sound a bit crude, but it is after all the job of soldiers to die in protection of civilians!
No soldier should be glorified as a hero for killing civilians to protect himself. Excessive is roughly synonymous with unnecessary, so if civilians are killed because a soldier uses excessive force, then the civilian lives are lost unnecessarily and that can never be glorified!
Please note that I do not differentiate between civilians on either side of a conflict. Claiming that the life of a civilian on one side is worth more than a civilian on the other side would be racism – and I do not appreciate that!
Question 2: “Are the Allied generals war criminals ?”
This is a tough one. The Geneva Conventions that define war crimes did not exist until some years after WWII, so in a ‘legal’ sense the German officers were arbitrarily tried and sentenced for war crimes at the N?rg Trials by the ‘winners’ of WWII.
Did some (not all) Allied officers commit actions that could be considered war crimes even if a strictly ‘legal’ definition did not exist? Yes, I am sure they did, but they were on the ‘winning’ side so they did not get tried – that WAS the name of the game back then. It is not fair and it does not justify war crimes in any way!
Today, the Geneva Conventions define war crimes and crimes against humanity explicitly under international law, so nobody can arbitrarily be sentenced. However, as we know from the actions of the armed forces of the USA in e.g. Iraq and as we know from the actions of the armed forces of Israel in e.g. the Occupied Territories it is still somewhat arbitrary who gets tried for breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
Unfortunately, the name of the game at the moment is that the worlds largest military agressors have decided that they are immune (by refusing to acknowledge the ICC), but that does not mean that breaches of the Geneva Conventions are not crimes, just that we have wait until the alleged criminals can be tried – and I will do what I can to change the name of the game to be ‘equal justice for all’ – even if the alleged criminal is from the USA or Israel!
Did that answer your questions?
Roy, with all due respect, I am merely disregarding claims which are erroneous, and worse, just plain lies. You are trying to fool people who do not have the time to study history, then pass it off as fact so you can build the foundations for a “parallel history” which favours Israel in all regards. Vadim also attempted to lure us into accepting a paradigm where your enemies are represented as “criminals” and the people of Israel as nice ordinary folk who are just trying to go about their daily business. Give us a break! … do you really think that people are that gullible and ill informed? I know it irks you that there are people here who actually do have a knowledge of history and can dispute your spurious claims, but we will not go away, ever!
Roy,
Keep your pants on, there is no reason to get exited just because we are able to refute some of your arguments. To ensure that we have clear communication, here are a few reasons why I might choose to ignore some of your points:
-When you start telling me that I don’t understand or that my ignorance prevents me from accepting your arguments (as if they were gospel), then the discussion dies.
-When you pull the anti-Semitism card, which I have no respect for, because you do not agree with my argued critizism of the policies of Israel (which represent political ideology and actions, NOT Judaism) then the discussion dies.
-When you start crying about how unfair it is that everybody hate you as if your prejudice is an argument that will gain you sympathy, then the discussion dies.
-When you start calling my arguments propaganda instead of arguing why you do not agree with them, then the discussion dies.
OK, let’s not disperse the debate and talk about something relevant.
What do you think about my solution to your right-of-return problem?
And my answer to Vadim about war crimes goes for you too ;)
And BTW using supposed “Anti-Semitism” where it is not merited is a gross insult to victims of REAL Anti-Semitism.
Thomas,
OK, this time your answers are straightforward and you do not evade answering the tough questions.
I see your point.
Could you please also answer my abstract questions from the comment #153 ?
Thomas,
I feel that you are patronizing me. The fact that you live in peaceful region and have the luxury of being a pacifist does not give you the right to do so. You know very well that you are intentionally disregarding many of comments and it has nothing to do with me calling you an anti-semite, its merely because you are unable or unwilling to refute what I am saying. Lets make a deal, whenever you pull the “fascist” or “racist” card I will disregard what you say too.
Regarding your points to Vadim.
So basically you have not been able to show that Israel is acting any worse than most other countries in war.
Everybody is a war criminal in your eyes even the allied forces in WW2 …
Pacifism only works when everyone are pacifists along with you. And Hezbollah are no pacifists.
Paul:
you say:
“Roy, with all due respect, I am merely disregarding claims which are erroneous, and worse, just plain lies.”
I am not lying about anything, look it up if you don’t believe me:
This is what he said to the new yorker Issue of 2002-10-14:
see the following link
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/021014fa_fact4
What … hard to believe hu ?
Roy, perhaps the reason why Denmark lives in peace with it’s neighbours is because it doesn’t build “settlements” in Sweden and Germany then claim that they are a part of Denmark!
Vadim,
Your question 1:
I believe in the right to self-defence, but also that it -as many other rights- comes with obligations. In realation to the right to self-defence there must be an obligation to respond proportionaly.
Under Danish law, if I am attacked by somebody using his fists and I shoot him, then I cannot claim self-defence and will be sentenced for manslaughter (if he dies). If I have taken classes in martial arts and I am being attacked by a guy using his fists, then I would have to be very careful about which technique I use, because if it can be established that there is a very high risk that the attacker will die or be crippled for life from the technique I use (and it happens) then I can be punished as an attacker.
I know you are fishing for an answer which will let you say “Ha hah! You just agreed that Israel can indiscriminately kill as many Lebanese civilians as it sees fit.”, but you will get no such answer. Primarily, because your attacks on Lebanese civilians under the excuse of going after Hizbollah is greatly out of proportion and since breaches of the Geneva Conventions (by excessively killing civilians) cannot be excused with self-defence.
You may find the following interesting (though horrifying may be a better word for you, because it is a lawyer saying that you have no legal right to bomb Lebanon into a pile of rubble):
“Self-defense in international law is governed by United Nations Charter Article 51. Article 51 gives states the right to use force in self-defense if an armed attack occurs. This means, as the International Court of Justice clarified in its 2004 Wall advisory opinion, that a significant armed attack for which a sovereign state is legally responsible may be met with the military force necessary to defend the victim from the attacker. The defense may be taken to the territory of the attacker and the ability to attack again eliminated. The defense of Kuwait after the invasion by Iraq in 1990 is the textbook case. Pushing the Iraqi army out of Kuwait and creating a buffer zone was what was necessary to defend Kuwait. Going all the way to Baghdad was not necessary and would have involved, therefore, a disproportionate use of force.”
…
“The situation is different respecting Hezbollah and Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign state. Under the current publicly available facts, Lebanon is not legally responsible for Hezbollah?s raid into Israel. Hezbollah?s acts were not those of a sovereign state and thus do not give rise to the right of self-defense under Article 51 of the Charter. Even if the facts later show that Lebanon was responsible, the Hezbollah raid would still not give rise to the right of self-defense. Such low-level acts of violence are considered ?incidents?.”
Source: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/07/proportionality-and-use-of-force-in.php
Your question 2:
I am not a judge, but I think he would be acquitted.
Before you start jumping around and thinking you got justification for indiscriminately killing Lebanese civilians, let me just point out that your analogy is seriously flawed.
From reading my answer above you would realize that the ‘self-defender’ in your example would not shoot back with a simple gun, but that it had to be an Uzi or a rocket launcher to fit any analogy coming close to the atrocities you are committing in Lebanon.
Here you go! Your answers! Happy?
Roy, could you please clarify your last post? … it is very vague!
Paul,
read number# 195,
I quoted the following from Hizballha spokesman:
?If they go from Sheba?a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine?[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.?
You called me a liar I provided proof in #205.
What say you ?
Roy,
Gimme a break! Just because I am not a trigger-happy maniac that does not make me a pacifist.
I open the door for women (especially if they are cute), I settle my arguments verbally (I have never hit anybody in anger), and I think that more than above average thoughtful consideration should be taken before declaring war or before using the words “I hate…”.
I am not going to excuse myself for having received what -in my corner of the world- is considered a good upbringing!
PS: After long thoughtful consideration I have come to the conclusion that the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is so outrageous and that enough analogies can be made with the ethnocentric nationalism that destroyed Europe during WWII that it is not completely without merits to call the government and policies of Israel as fascistic. However, I promise that I will continue not to call you a fascist or a racist for no aparrent reason ;)
I have something a little of topic:
I would like to know what people here think about the following Lebanese psychologist, Dr. Wafa Sultan.
This is an inteview with her in El-Gazira TV:
See the link below:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
Thomas,
OK, I understand your answer to the question #2. I understand that your analogy to the current situation would be somebody using Uzi or a rocket launcher on a crowd of the civilians, in order to kill one criminal, which is shooting on you amid the crowd. As I understand, shooting at the criminal from a non automatic gun would be OK. I am right in my understanding ?
I understand your description of the Danish law and the right for self defense. However, may I still ask you to answer the question #1 AS-IS, sorry for being meticulous : What would you, Thomas, personally do in such situation ? Would you shoot back or not ?
Roy, Dr Sultan is Syrian.
And she speaks truthful statements.
To Antoine, Paul,
and to all others that have raised the issue of the Shebaa Farms.
I ask that you finally refer to the following quotes (post 182) from Hizballah or admit that this conflict has nothing to do with Shebaa Farms or anything else which concerns Lebanon directly.
This is the only way to create some sort of a productive debate.
If you don’t want to scroll up — here it is once more :
Quotes from Hezbollah AFTER THE ISRAELI COMPLETE WITHDRAWL FROM LEBANAN (according to UN):
1. ?The Jews are a cancer spreading in the body of the Arab nation and the Islamic nation, a cancer that has spread and reached the Arab institutions, the villages and the refugee camps.?
Al-Manar (Hizballah TV)
November 23, 2004
2. ?If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.?
Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
New Yorker, October 14, 2002
3. ?The Jewish-Crusader coalition will not be safe anywhere from the fighters? attacks. We will hit the most vital centers and we will strike against its strategic operations with all possible peaces.?
? Hezbollah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
Lebanon Daily Star, October 23, 2002
4. ?If they go from Sheba?a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine?[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.?
? Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
Waiting for your remarks.
Roy,
What have the State of Israel done to us who are peace proponents ?
It has robbed us of every alibi to convince Nasrallah from laying down their weapons.
I am afraid that PM Olmert waged this war only to show that he is a tough man who do not hesitate to take radical and extreme measures. In other terms, this might simply be an “electoral campaign” war.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but PM Olmert is the first non-military man to take the primiership since the creation fo the State of Israel.
Nevertheless, we still believe that we can reach to a pacific solution, but for now, the military campagain is not the appropriate mean to put an end to Hezballa. Au contraire, it has given the fuel required for them to cling on to their arsenal.
But with negociations, I think we can overcome these weapons and we can truly look into a bright dawn for our land.
Roy,
What have the State of Israel done to us who are peace proponents ?
It has robbed us of every alibi to convince Nasrallah from laying down their weapons.
I am afraid that PM Olmert waged this war only to show that he is a tough man who do not hesitate to take radical and extreme measures. In other terms, this might simply be an “electoral campaign” war.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but PM Olmert is the first non-military man to take the primiership since the creation fo the State of Israel.
Nevertheless, we still believe that we can reach to a pacific solution, but for now, the military campagain is not the appropriate mean to put an end to Hezballa. Au contraire, it has given the fuel required for them to cling on to their arsenal.
But with negociations, I think we can overcome these weapons and we can truly look into a bright dawn for our land.
Antoine,
Shouldn’t Israel’s complete withdrawl (according to UN) from Lebanon in 2000 have been enough for the Lebenese to convince Nasrallah/Hizballha for laying down their weapons, as you said ? Having seen some of the quotes and actions by them do you really believe there is any sort of peaceful way to convince them ? I am sure there can be peace between Israel and Lebanon some day, we both don’t hate each other (I hope) but not with an orginization like Hizballha ? how ? I hope that despite the huge price Israel and Lebanon are paying now for the actions of Hizballha the final outcome will be a truely independent Lebanese state that can exercise full sovereignty over its land without any Proxy wars being fought in its territories. When that happens the Israeli-Lebanese border will look like the border between Sweden and Norway.
Oh BTW:
Olmert is definitely not the first Israeli PM not to have a military back ground:
there were Shimon Peres, Golda Meir, Ben Gurion and many more …
Please let me get this straight Antoine, are you advocating Wafa Sultans view that all Muslims are “backward and ignorant” (a point made by the host with which Sultan concurred), that they are all people people who “treat their wives like beasts?” … that “All the useful scientific books that you have today are theirs [Jews]” (a ridiculous assertion) … that “Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies”?
“A Tale of Two Transcripts”. A piece which examines the mistranslation of the Wafa Sultan interview by Washington’s “M.E.M.R.I.” organisation.
Vadim,
I thought my answer was pretty clear, but yes, if a guy was shooting around and I had a gun, then I would shoot the criminal.
I do not own a gun, but IF I did I would make sure that I was good enough using it that the risk of killing an innocent bystander -in a hypothetical situation like the one you describe- would be reduced to a minimum and I would walk towards the criminal and wait to the last possible second to shoot him (to reduce the distance and thereby the risk to people around). If the situation allowed it, then I would consider a warning shot (I do not like pigeons, so that is another good reason for a warning shot).
It is purely hypothetical speculation, because I do not live in a society with a lot of guns everywhere, so the risk of some nut going on a shooting rampage is so insignificantly small that I would not even consider buying a gun in the first place.
Roy, I will have to consult with an Islamic expert regarding the authenticity of your your quotes. I suspect that some of them are like President Ahmadinejad’s famous “Wipe Israel off the map” mistranslation, which was really “this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time”. Wilful mistranslations of many statements from the Middle East are a VERY common occurence in the current anti Muslim propaganda war.
Paul — I will be waiting for your answer (please don’t forget to answer me).
You are allowed to suspect its fake, prove it. I never said the pictures above are fake, just because I don’t like them. Stick to the facts please, and note that I referred you to my sources.
I forgot to mention that the Ahmadinejad “quote” was actually Ahmadinejad quoting Khomeini, not speaking his own words.
Hence I am very cynical about so called “quotes” which have been “translated” in Washington and Tel Aviv.
Paul — ok since you raised the issue of Ahmadinejad,
lets see what wikipedia has to say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad
In October 2005 Ahmadinejad gave a speech that contained antagonistic statements about the State of Israel. According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the “occupying regime” must be “wiped off the map”, and referred to it as a “disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world.”
In addition to that CNN and other media outlets reported that he stated concerning the Holocaust, that “they have invented a myth that Jews were massacred” …
After that in an interview with Der Spiegel, he was asked, “Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just ‘a myth’?” Ahmadinejad responded, “I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it.” In the same interview, he later stated, “We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not…If it did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came from”
Stop twisting things, sometimes Muslims can be bad people too …
Unfortunately, there seems to be a lack of reputable sources for your quotes, they were mostly neo-conservative and Zionist websites, the same ones who shouted the Ahmadinejad lie from the rooftops, with one heresay quote from a (Jewish) reporter in a somewhat polemical piece in the New Yorker magazine.
Incidentally, you proved nothing in message 205, that was Thomas’s message!
“In a recent speech he gave in the Bekaa last week, the party?s secretary-general, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, said that it was unacceptable to make ?generalizations and categorizations that would involve millions of Europeans who preceded the Islamic world in rejecting a war waged against it.?
He said that opening up to millions in Europe and America should be given priority, and deemed it unforgivable to talk about ?the Crusader West or a Crusader war.? Lebanese Daily Star
You see? … I can play “quotes”, AND I can provide links to their source too!
Paul,
Is this what Dr Wafa says ?
If so, then you must have read the translation.
But I think that if you have heard her arabic interview, she starts by speaking of those whose mentality belongs to the middle ages.
Do Muslims in Bahrein, Emirates live in the middle ages ?
I believe that muslims or christians or jews who take up weapons and try to solve problems through them belong not only to the middle ages, even to the stone age.
Very recently, we had riots in Ashrafieh following the display of certain cartoons. And more recently in Da7ie because of very popular a TV show. This is not acceptable if two communities are supposed to live to together in peaceful coexistance.
It happened that those rioters were exclusively Moslem. And I believe they overreacted. Furthermore, I think that the Muslim world is passing by the same phase Christianity passed during the Middle Ages. Back then, no one could say to The Church that they were in the Middle Ages. They risked to be burnt alive. In a similar extent, I see traits of analogy.
What we want is peace, and I think the Lebanese non alined in the fight are paying a very hard price for their support for the Chiite community, as we paid a hard tribute for the Palestinian community.
What must be understood that we have rejected hatred, whether it is to a Syrian, to a Palestinian, to the Israeli as well as to every Lebanese and non Lebanese warrior who waged the Holy War in the corridors of Lebanon.
Guns will not lead anywhere, it took us many wars to understand this. Chiites and Communists in Lebanon still believe so, then we will wait for them to come out of this circle of violence.
The question that we are trying to answer here is merely how to coexist in Peace?
Roy,
yes, I believe that there is a peaceful way of disarming them.
I dont tell you that there speeches are not worrying, but I cannot change the fact that they are part of the Lebanese tissue.
If I am to live with them, I am to find solutions that do not lead to armed struggles. We have tried to wipe each other out, neither one of us succeeded. Hence I will strive to find “la trois?e solution”.
If they are really a proxy for another non lebanese power, we then should look into how can they become an foreign-indepedant entity
whith them a full part of the Lebanese social tissue.
According the the Unifil, Shaba is Lebanese soil.
http://www.tayyar.org/img/unifl_map.gif
The Ahmadinijad quote is just plain wrong, however it was an extremely widely disseminated fraud, the amateur who wrote that piece for the Wiki is wrong too (many things in the Wiki are, as it is edited mostly by amateurs), also the veracity of the piece has been called into question over “POV” issues.
Ahmadinejad mis-quote This is from a source of the highest integrity (Prof IJ Cole).
One I DO know is ?The Jewish-Crusader coalition will not be safe anywhere from the fighters? attacks. We will hit the most vital centers and we will strike against its strategic operations with all possible peaces.? … It was NOT made by Nasrallah, it was attributed to al Queda spokesman Sulaiman Abu Ghaith.
“The Jewish Crusader Coalition”
“The Jews are a cancer spreading in the body of the Arab nation and the Islamic nation, a cancer that has spread and reached the Arab institutions, the villages and the refugee camps” … this is a (suspicious) quote (it has also been translated as “a virus resembling AIDS” and several other things. It was attributed to Sheikh Mudeiris and as you are quoting a TV station this is deceptive. It’s a little like taking a statement from Usama bin Ladin that was repeated on say, the BBC, then saying “the BBC said that …” It derives from a Hitler anti semitic slur, and originally went something like “The Jews are a Cancer on the breast of Germany” One author has even suggested that this may provide the key to his rampant anti-Semitism, as Hitler’s much loved mother died of breast cancer, and her doctor was a Jew called Eduard Bloch. (Ralph Binion – “Hitler among the Germans”)… I really don’t know about that!
Antoine, apologies, I forgot that you were an Arabic speaker! that was what the phony english translation was saying. It was made in Washington like the phony Ahmadinejad misquote and I posted a link to a piece about it.
Incidentally Roy, I couldn’t find any records in the Lebanese Star of the quotes you enclosed, so I don’t really know one way or the other about those yet, however the one relevant quote that I DID find there was actually diametrically opposed to it!
?In a recent speech he gave in the Bekaa last week, the party?s secretary-general, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, said that it was unacceptable to make ?generalizations and categorizations that would involve millions of Europeans who preceded the Islamic world in rejecting a war waged against it.?
He said that opening up to millions in Europe and America should be given priority, and deemed it unforgivable to talk about ?the Crusader West or a Crusader war.? Lebanese Daily Star 2003 (see msg 232 for link)
Will you PLEASE stop putting erroneous “statements” on here now Roy? as you are obviously a VERY unreliable source!
any one from any part of the world plz answer me.
UN bulding targeted .
childern killed.
by this can israel stop leader of hizbollah.(surely not)
the world saw the same version in aphgantistan where amercian said they come to kill usama but what happened. civilian killed nothing else.
amercain attach iraq by saying they got WMD but found nothing(offcorse oil). isnt intersting the country who fire first atomic bomb and got the largest number of atomic bombs in different shapes are raiding others for having it.
Dr. Wafa Sultan: A Lost Opportunity … an interesting article about the Wafa Sultan interview linked above (message 215).
Why can’t we all talk?
I don’t like war!
This is becoming a we are right, you are wrong argument!
We have to talk!
Violence is the primitive method of settling an argument.
I hate seeing innocent people die. I hate seeing anyone die.
Please, Talk!
All deliberate killing of innocent civilians is terrorism.
Therefore the major terrorist in the Israel/Palestine/Lebanon conflicts must be Israel. Israel’s claim that it doesn’t target innocent civilians is a joke, since everybody knows Israel has been deliberately targetting innocents in illegally occupied Palestine for decades, and recently they have slaughtered over 500 innocent civilians in Lebanon, all in contravention of international law and the laws of morality.
Some of Israel’s terrorists wear uniforms, and some (settlers) carry UZIs, but all deliberately kill innocents, ergo all are terrorists.
Paul,
I was a bit sloppy, it seems I mixed up sources for the quotes I brought,
Let me set this straight as follows:
1. ?If they go from Sheba’a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine…[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.?
? Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin
New Yorker, October 14, 2002
see: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/021014fa_fact4
2. ?If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.?
? Hezbollah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
Lebanon Daily Star, October 23, 2002
see: http://web.archive.org/web/20021024133755/http://www.dailystar.com.lb/23_10_02/art5.asp
another more specific source:
A Hezbollah statement in 1992 vowed, “It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.” In 2002, Sheik Nasrallah was quoted by the Lebanon Daily Star as encouraging Jews to move to Israel. “If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide,” he was quoted as saying.
see: http://www.nysun.com/article/10439
3. ?The Jewish-Crusader coalition will not be safe anywhere from the fighters’ attacks. We will hit the most vital centers and we will strike against its strategic operations with all possible peaces.?
? Attributed on Al-Jazeera TV to al-Qaida spokesman SuleimanAbu Gheith
December 8, 2002
4. ?The Jews are a cancer spreading in the body of the Arab nation and the Islamic nation, a cancer that has spread and reached the Arab institutions, the villages and the refugee camps.?
? Sermon by Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris
Palestine Authority TV
January 7, 2005
So, yes the last two are not Hezbollah, I stand corrected.
Regarding your claims about the authenticity of the translations, and sources please note the following:
1. Hezbollah’s TV station, Al-Manar, openly calls for Jihad. It has been banned in France, and the United States has declared it a terrorist outfit.
2. Nasrallah’s speeches border on radical Islamic views, often hinting at full destruction of Israel and ridiculing its society. He opposes any normalization of relations with Israel.
3. Hezbollah has been implicated in a series of terror attacks, including the 1985 hijacking of a TWA flight, in which a U.S. Navy diver was killed. It is also widely believed to be responsible for the 1992 Israeli Embassy attack in Buenos Aires and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish cultural center in the city. Additionally, the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing that left 240 dead were also believed to be carried out by Hezbollah.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah
So it the quotes above seem very fitting indeed …
P.S.: I am not just playing silly quoting games with you, this is the only way to make a valid argument in my eyes.
Just repeating slogans and baseless accusations will not really get us anywhere.
Now Paul,
Regading Ahmadinejad, I really suggest you stop defending this slime.
Arguing about petty mis-translations of what he says is pointless if you consider the fact that he is a well know Holocaust denier.
In February 2006, Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying: “Now, in the West, insulting the prophet is allowed, but questioning the Holocaust is considered a crime. We ask, why do you insult the prophet? The response is that it is a matter of freedom, while in fact, they are hostages of the Zionists.”[43] In the same month, Poland banned visas to Iranian researchers who were planning to visit Auschwitz.
“Iranian researchers” — maybe they were sent to prove the Holocaust is a myth ? what do you think thier research would be about ?
Anyway there are a lot more facts about this fascist pig in wikipedia.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#Holocaust_denial_and_demands_to_relocate_Israel
P.S. regarding: “Wiki are, as it is edited mostly by amateurs” I think you should consider that maybe it is your sources that are amateurs, or even worse — not objective god forbid.
Wikipedia provides links and the sources to any fact that it states, although I understand you don’t like quoting sources for some reason ?!
Roy, I do NOT support Ahmedinejad or Nasrallah, just as I did not support Sharon and I do not support Olmert. Rather, I support people who have more contructive solutions to the problem, people like Uri Avnery, Dr Mustafa Barghouti and Dr Hanan Ashrawi. However, my mother taught me that telling the truth is the right thing to do, hence I do not like lies, damned lies and propaganda!
There has been a systematic campaign to discredit the Arab, Persian and other parts of the Middle Eastern world through mistranslation of speeches, mistaken attribution, and plain, old fashioned making things up which has permeated the highest levels of the media, the Ahmadinejad speech, and some of the examples that you have posted in this forum being prime examples. By the time the truth is exposed the damage is done, and the conflict(s) escalate. The lies remain on the record in numerous places, and people like yourself continue to quote them as an example of how “beastly” Muslims are.
Even the BBC broadcasted the so-called “wipe Israel off the map” speech! I asked my Persian neighbours to translate that speech, I am sure that they are no lovers of the current regime in Iran, as that is why they are living here in the first place! However, they translated the speech the same way as Professor Cole (Sorry Roy, you are making a fool of yourself if you describe him as an “amateur”) did. I went to my other Persian friend, he fought for several years in the Iran-Iraq war, which he hated, so again, he is no great lover of the current Iranian “theocracy” … ditto! They also translated “Iran has the right to nuclear energy” as “the use of nuclear weapons is Iran’s right”. Now on to the most problematic of them all, Ahmadinejad’s supposed denial of the Shoah. Don’t get me wrong Roy, denying that the holocaust took place is utterly rank and obviously untrue. In my country there are still soldier alive who liberated the death camps in ’45, there were also British who were blown to bits by Zionists who saw Mussolini as a hero and Adolf Hitler as a potential partner in crime too, but that is another matter! … Back to Ahmedinejad, we must look at these so called excerpts in context, and also look at other factors. Firstly, it was translated by CNN, who are notorious previous offenders in this regard, and have even had two US government propaganda experts working for them Why Were Government Propaganda Experts Working On News At CNN?
Here’s the CNN version
“They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets. The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets, (it) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet. If you have burned the Jews, why don’t you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel? Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?” Source
… now here’s IRNA version …
“If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II – which seems THEY ARE RIGHT IN THEIR CLAIM because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why should the Palestinian nation pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions. [...] The same European countries have imposed the illegally-established Zionist regime on the oppressed nation of Palestine. If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there. Then the Iranian nation will have no objections, will stage no rallies on the Qods Day and will support your decision.”
Source
Now of course Roy, I expect you to vehemently agree with both statements, but you have to agree that the CIA, sorry, the “CNN” version has been given a HIGHLY sinister “makeover”!
You may think that lies such as this help your cause, but if you are genuinely horrified by what is currently happening in Northern Israel they DON’T! At the risk of repeating myself, they merely escalate these tensions and cause more casualties on both sides. If that is what you want, then screaming about the tragic civilian deaths in Haifa and other places (when you are killing literally TEN times as many people in Lebanon and over three times as many people in Palestine) is just rank hypocrisy.
As I wrote earlier, Ahmadinejad was QUOTING Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini in the first passage and the words were calling for the fall of the current regime in Israel, not the country itself. If Israel were to return to it’s 1967 borders tomorrow, instances of this kind of rhetoric, and more importantly the attacks would rapidly subside. But of course that isn’t going to happen is it? and you know why as well!
Incidentally, I have watched tapes of al Manar, and yes it is indeed rampant propaganda! However, that is not my point. An institutional policy of lying and deception is.
Forgive me for digressing here, but I live in London, which is officially the world’s most multicultural city. It contains more people (14 million within it’s widest boundary) than the whole of your area. There are literally hundreds of nationalities here encompassing dozens of religions in an area which is smaller than Israel / Palestine. Forgive me again Roy, but if Israel can’t live with one nationality which encompasses two main religions, then it is a disgrace to humanity!
And Roy, before you come back with all the “It’s all the Muslims fault” etc etc yadda yadda .. DON’T … JUST DON’T!
BTW Roy in using an al Queda quote in the context of this discussion you are conflating al Queda with Hizb’Allah, which as any Muslim will tell you is just plain wrong! al Queda are a “Sunni” organisation and Hizb’Allah are a “Shi’a” organisation. Any muslim will also tell you that while they are all brothers (and sisters) under Allah and and his revelations to their holy prophet, otherwise their religious views are by definition radically different, as the Shi’a are the result of the greatest schism to happen within the Muslim faith. In this respect they are rather like “Catholic” and “Protestant” Christians and they, and their respective organisations (whether great or nefarious) should never be confused!
Paul,
“people like yourself continue to quote them as an example of how ?beastly? Muslims are.”
I have not made one single post here or anywhere else blaming Muslims or saying that is how Muslims are.
I am talking about Ahmadinejad and Hezbollah, it is you that are defending them in the name of the Muslims.
“However, they translated the speech the same way as Professor Cole …”
In the western world, I believe, it is a bit harder to spread such a simple lie,
If the translation was indeed so incorrect I believe the BBC and other media that have published this, would already have been sued for slander and would have admitted they were wrong and would publish an apology.
Again, if CNN/BBC both commit slander, I suggest you, Paul, sue them, you should have an easy case if you bring some of your Persian experts with you.
But until you do, just blaming every known media source in the world by being a part of a CIA zionist conspiracy just won’t cut it.
Please note, I am not referring you to sources in the IDF or the Israeli television, I am pointing you to sources which are commenly considered both professional and objective.
I really can’t do much more than that.
“?It?s all the Muslims fault? etc etc yadda yadda .. DON?T ? JUST DON?T!”
Its you that is translating everything I say to slogans. My accusations are not towards Muslims as a whole they are very focused.
I think I am being fair here, I am providing my sources in every claim I make.
I am not just making things up, while your nihilistic zionist conspiracies approach to everything I say, makes me feel that you are not a very open person …
Kimmy, you are right of course, talking is good, talking is the solution, but before you can “talk”, firstly you have to strip away the lies that exist on both sides, otherwise you are talking about separate parallel universes which have no correspondence with reality. Discussions of this kind will cause nothing but ill if they are acted on, and indeed, this is the current situation. The biggest cause, and the biggest industry of these conflicts is lies. Believe me Kimmy I have much experience of fighting wrongs, and it would be lovely if we could all sit around a big campfire, hold hands and sing songs together, but this will only happen when we all start to sing from the same hymnsheet (as the saying goes). It is not an easy matter, but it is very necessary!
Having said that, I love your messages and I love your spirit. Keep it up! you are an example for us all.
Thomas,
You wrote :
“As a country of 5 million people, do you really think we would have had a snowball?s chance in hell to fend off the Germans (who had just steam rolled Poland – a country with 20 times more people)?”
To be fair with Poland – it had population of 35 million (see http://www.country-studies.com/poland/population.html ), population in 7 times larger than the population of Denmark, when it was attacked by Germany from the West on 01.09.39 and by Soviet Union on 17.09.39 from the East. However, the Polish did fought for a whole month. They were betrayed by their well-mannered allies, who prefered to negotiate with Hitler rather than to fight him. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_%281939-1945%29
Checkoslovakia was the first to be sacrificed to appease Hitler, many “fruitfull” negotiations took place in that time, many concessions were done to Hitler. Sorry for a historical digression
Antoine, if you qoute UNIFIL, here is a quote from a UNIFIL source
see the same wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeba_Farms
“Timur Goksel, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) told the BBC that “on all maps the UN has been able to find, the farms are seen on the Syrian side [of the border].” [BBC News (London), 25 May 2000.]“
aloha,
I am from Germany and I observe the Near East Conflict only by TV, this is my only possiblitiy to do that.I’m very shocked to see those pictures. I am speechless and I am more speechless about the comments here full of hatred. Didn’t you learn in the past dear commenters? I read in the other Posting about “die in love” something about: Do you have Pictures about Kids in USA who where killed by Arabs?
Hey, I guess the commenter of this didn’t checked anything.
Every soul, whether young or old, that will be killed in this or other global conflicts is a reason to sit down and think over it…I think, the world is gone wild thesedays and less people understand that this can be the beginning of the third worldwar, a nuclear worldwar with a completely destruction of this planet.
I am very sad about the situation down there, I feel helpless and I could cry like the mothers of these little children who got the “gift of love”….HELLO World and Humans, what’s up? Is this what we really want? Then this will be what we get!
And if the commenters who live in Europa, Germany, United Kingdom or elsewhere, but main thing far away from that conflict: What get’s you sooo sure, that you won’t be the next?
I hope, this war will end quickly……I got two children and I teach them “be peaceful with yourself and with your next, do good things without expectations and so on..”
We are no christians, we are humans without a religious “post-it” on our head…..
I dnt belive those pig tailed rats. How can jews teach their kids like that? And they say we arabs are the terrorist. Lik now I support Hezballah even more than b4. Allah Bless our Arab kids. Ya rub
Vadim,
hence the dispute…
Paul,
Having heard the latest promises by El-Zawhari (Bin Landen’s second in command) from al-Qaida (with pictures of the burning twins in the background) to join the fighting in Lebanon,
and help Hezbollah I think the links between them, as claimed for years by Israel and the U.S. should now be clear to everyone else as well.
At least al-Qaida are always clear in their messages and don’t use a lot of double talk.
I don’t really care to study the difference between these two terrorist orginizations with a microscope.
The fact that Hezbollah are Shites and al-Qaida are Sunni is irrelevant, the fact they resort to the same type of violence and terror is.
If the Lebenese will allow this group into Lebanon as well, I fear things will get much worse for everybody in the region.
Antoine,
no the dispute is not due to Shaaba fields, it is merely a poor excuse. see my posts above, Hizballha’s spokesman said so himself.
to all
Please see the following article “Israel within its rights” of two US lawers, which explains legal issues of Israel’s actions in Lebanon:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072501300.html
“…although international law requires a state to have a lawful reason to use force — such as self-defense — it does not mandate that a state limit its military response to “tit for tat” actions. Once a country has suffered an armed attack, it is entitled to identify the source of that attack and to eliminate its adversary’s ability to attack again.
…
No state has the right to permit a foreign military force to use its territory to launch attacks against another country. Indeed, every country has an obligation to control its own territory. Lebanon’s failure (or refusal) to expel Hezbollah would in and of itself have been a legitimate cause for Israeli military action.
…
An army must always eschew deliberate attacks on civilians and consider whether the military advantage to be gained from an operation is sufficiently important to justify potential collateral damage to civilians. But this does not mean that installations and infrastructure, such as airports, bridges and the power grid, cannot be legally attacked. These are all dual-use targets — having a civilian character but also clear military value.”
Thomas,
I hope the article from my previous comment, answers your claims about illegality of Israel’s actions.
@Vadim:
War, terrorism and violent oppositions cannot be the answer.
Sorry guy but this won’t be succesful in tryin’ to legalize Israel’s actually actions….no way!
to chiuvana, Thomas and kimmy
From the same article – http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072501300.html
“But this does not mean that installations and infrastructure, such as airports, bridges and the power grid, cannot be legally attacked. These are all dual-use targets — having a civilian character but also clear military value. Indeed, in NATO’s 1999 war against Serbia, exactly the same set of targets was attacked — with the agreement and approval of the European governments involved.”
Denmark and Germany are members of Nato, aren’t they ?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign
“For the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) it was the first time it had participated in a conflict since World War II.”
Was the NATO operation not needed for peace in Yugoslavia ? Would it be better to let Yugoslavians continue to kill each other ?
Vadim, so is it “legal” to hit aid convoys and Red Cross ambulances then?
… and UN observers too?
to chiuvana
Don’t you see that the photos in this post are plain “Greuelpropaganda” ?
to Paul
INTENTIONALLY hitting aid convoys, Red Cross ambulances and UN observers is illegal. Had somebody proven that it was done intentionally ?
I would forward your questions to chiuvana, Thomas and kimmy, in the following way :
“Was it legal to hit the Albanian refugee convoy ?”
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign
“… a NATO aircraft attacked an Albanian refugee convoy, believing it was a Serbian military convoy, killing around 50 people…”
Vadim, with all due respect, it has happened TOO many times now. Israel is the little boy who cried “wolf!”, and Kofi Annan seems to agree. Just because the Italian airforce accidentally bombed a convoy of refugees in 1999 it does NOT mean that is is alright for Israel to do it on a regular basis. It is also not alright for the Israeli Offence Force to “accidentally” shoot people in the head on a regular basis either.
With regard to your “gruel(atrosity)propaganda comment, it’s isn’t so much fun when the boot is on the other foot is it? media bias or not, the world is now disgusted with your country, however you don’t seem to get the message!
It is high time that you stop making excuses for this unnecessary carnage!
The UN has pulled it’s observers out of southern Lebanon
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27202485.htm
THIS was why the Israelis hit the UN mission there!!! They want them out to have no “credible” (I say this with EXTREME sarcasm because the Western media discounts Arab voices)witnesses to the carnage. This was NO mistake, Israel’s goal has been achieved. And Vadim and Roy, go ahead and just keep giving us all your ZIONIST excuses. It’s all a bunch of TWISTED SICK LIES and EXCUSES and any one of sane mind with a HEART not made of stone knows that!! HUNDREDS of civilians are dead, THOUSANDS are refugees, THOUSANDS are without shelter adequate food, water and medical supplies who are INNOCENT and all you two just keep on spewing is excuses. As a human being I hope you are both safe from harm wherever you are and as a HUMAN BEING I would ask you both to express just a LITTLE BIT of SINCERE remorse at what your country is doing to it’s neighbor.
Of course it is, and even more shamefully, they want to do the same thing to the Red Cross as well.
Might I add to the “neighbor” list the carnage in Palestine?! Can you two, Vadim and Roy, show ANY remorse at the loss of innocent life? Innocent children and their INNOCENT parents without giving us a long list of other such incidents of civilian casualties?!
I am not pro-Lebanon, pro-Palestine, or pro-Israel, I am pro-humanity! What is happening just cannot be justified in any way…It just can’t! Anyone who’s seen the news lately have seen the total destruction in Lebanon, (not to mention what must be the situation in Palestine, which has been bypassed by the media but I am sure is not bypassed by the Israeli army!) however in Israel the images are only of deserted streets… The media tries to make it seem like Israel is being destroyed too, but the buildings are still standing, the streets are still there… even the trees are swaying in the wind! The innocent lives that are lost in Israel is just as much a tragedy, but enough is enough… come on… who is the real terrorist?? And according to Bush “all sovereign nations have a right to defend itself”… really? Is it defense of is it terrorism?
call this act of love by Israel and its allies who suply them the bombs to kill little children who is just starting to learn ABC
oh yea this is Bush :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grssbNMZzgo
No zionist will ever show remorse until the day the Muslim walk over them holding the banner of Islam!
nice blog!
peace to you all!
Refugee Convoy (and BBC film crew) come under fire.
To all who say that I am wrong!
Hezbollah was formed when Israelis forces invaded Lebanon.
My father compared this to Germany invading Denmark during WWII.
They were called Freedom Fighters then!
What is the difference?
Terrorists, freedom fighters?
The Danes used tactics that are now considered terrorist tactics!
Are they terrorists? Are they freedom fighters?
Please don’t use political statements to confuse the facts.
Stop the war please.
nada en este mundo puede justificar ni una sola mirada de dolor de uno de esos ni???? basta, paren, detenganse se los ruego.
to Paul
“It is also not alright for the Israeli Offence Force to ?accidentally? shoot people in the head on a regular basis either.” I do not know what you are talking about. Please provide some evidence, not empty slogans.
to Robin
I already wrote in post #590 of the previous post http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/
“I?ve not met a single Israeli who hates Leabanese people. The hatred is toward Nasralla and Hezbollah, but not toward the Leabanese people. I have Arab friends in Haifa. The deaths of innocent civilians in Lebanon indeed make me feel bad.”
But would you beleive me, in any case ?
I am trying to have some intelligent discussion here, with evidence, analogies, historical facts, concrete proposals and so on, not just empty slogans.
to kimmy
“Hezbollah was formed when Israelis forces invaded Lebanon.My father compared this to Germany invading Denmark during WWII.”
OK, but Israel finished invasion of Lebanon 6 years ago ! Hezbollah attacked Israel on the Israel’s own territory !
Imagine today, some Danish resistance veteran would forget that the WWII was finished 60 years ago and will go to the German-Danish border and attack German soldiers on the German territory !
OK Vadim, I apoligize that I interupted your “intelligent discussion” with some simple questioning of your humanity :)
Just what do you mean by empty slogans? Please enumerate.
Here’s something for you to ponder on.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine46.html
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/thestory.html
And here’s a really good one http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9846641F-082C-4850-8534-8772D68C9C55.htm
“The Israeli army has cleared a commander serving in the southern Gaza town of Rafah of any wrongdoing a few days after he riddled a Palestinian girl’s body with bullets.
The company commander, whose identity was not revealed, shot 13-year-old Iman al-Hams as she was on her way to school in Rafah. A few minutes later he riddled her body and head with 15 to 20 bullets to make sure she was dead.
The practice, known as verification of killing, is used widely in the Israeli army after shootings of Palestinians.
Chief of Staff Lieutenant-General Moshe Yaalon on Friday concluded that the platoon commander acted properly and that no action should be taken against him.
In a briefing to the Israeli cabinet last week, Yaalon argued that the officer should be given the benefit of the doubt, saying he suspected she could have been used by Palestinian fighters to divert soldiers’ attention and lure them from their positions.
Witnesses
However, soldiers serving under the officer’s command gave damning evidence, suggesting he killed the girl in cold-blood before “emptying his entire magazine to her head”.
Thomas Hundall, British peace activist, shot in the head while trying to protect Palestinian children in Gaza
http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/041203_israeli_forces_shoot_british_act.htm
I’ll end with something from the Israeli press
https://israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/466/index.php
I hope this adds to your “intelligent conversation” :)
Oh, I forgot to mention the “humanity” of the IOF in clearing its’ soldier of any wrong doing after emptying his magazine into the head of a 13 year old Palestinian girl in the “verified killing” Gosh, he must have just been having a bad day. Score one for IOF humanity. :)
It’s late Vadim for me here in the States, but I just want to wish you sweet dreams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJJm7B6AKuc&search=Lebanon
to Robin
By evidence, I mean some serious and objective sources – wikipedia, central news agencies of US and Europe. With all due respect, “revisionist history” does not look like a serious source.
I am sorry, but https://israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/466/index.php is not Israeli press. The serious Israeli news sites in English are :
http://www.haaretz.com/
http://www.jpost.com/
http://www.ynetnews.com/
In general, you can be interested in the following link
http://www.seconddraft.org/, which describes how Palestinians manipulate the media.
I admit that the cases of Thomas Hundall and Iman al-Hams are well known.
The soldier who shot Thomas Hundall was put on trial and convicted of manslaughter, see
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-27-israel-hurndall_x.htm
The commander, who killed Iman al-Hams, was put on trial but was acquitted.
“The controversy originated from false statements from two company soldiers who claimed that the commander killed Iman Al Hams as she lay wounded on the ground, and then emptied an entire clip into her body in an unofficially banned IDF military convention known as “confirming the kill”. The soldiers later confessed that they gave false testimony …”
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Hams
In general, I propose to stick to the Lebanon issue, the one which is discussed in this post.
to Robin
If you want to know how Palestinian militant groups abuse Palestinian children for their goals – see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber
“Human rights organizations such as Amnesty International strongly condemned the act of using children to commit attacks: “Amnesty International has repeatedly condemned suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians by Palestinian armed groups as crimes against humanity. Using children to carry out or assist in armed attacks of any kind is an abomination.”
Shazia,
The points which are repeated in this form, which presume to conclude that Israel’s action in Lebanon is illegitimate due the fact that the number of civilians casualties in the Lebanese side are greater than the numbers of civilians casualties in the Israeli side, or that the amount of destruction in Lebanon is greater than in Israel are absurd. Living in Haifa, I can tell you, that in Israel we are taking Hezbollah’s rockets coming in here by the thousands very seriously and that is why we remain in bomb shelters or have fled the north. I personally did remain in Haifa, but I always stay near a bomb shelter and run for cover when the sirens go off. People just a few kilometers from my location have been killed or seriously injured by these rockets, therefore I am outraged by your remarks. Israel’s actions in Lebanon against a confirmed terrorist organization with military infrastructures, tens of thousands of rockets and soldiers vowing to destroy Israel, is well within our right to self-defense.
http://www.haaretz.com/
one headline: the absent mother (lebanon is killing us)
1st of all, lebanon is not hezbolla, and the republic of lebanon is not at war with israel, it is hezbolla. i hope people know the difference.
can someone tell me where in israeli news online does it mention any news about the 600,000 lebanese who fled their homes, or about the almost 500 dead people, or about the devastating pictures of destructions in the southern suburbs of beirut????
The Hezbollah terrorists are firing intentionally into Israeli civilian population and then taking cover within Lebanese civilian population, it is therefore responsible for civilian casualties on both sides, and should be treated as such.
http://www.haaretz.com/
one headline: the absent mother (lebanon is killing us)
1st of all, lebanon is not hezbolla, and the republic of lebanon is not at war with israel, it is hezbolla. i hope people know the difference.
can someone tell me where in israeli news online does it mention any news about the 600,000 lebanese who fled their homes, or about the almost 500 dead people, or about the devastating pictures of destructions in the southern suburbs of beirut????
“Israel rejects a UN call for a 72-hour truce to enable humanitarian aid to reach trapped civilians”
http://web.naharnet.com/default.asp
sad,so sad.
Paul,
You say:
“Roy, I do NOT support Ahmedinejad or Nasrallah”
Ahmedinejad has been condemned worldwide for his views on wiping out Israel and denying the holocaust while Nasrallah’s Hezbollah terrorists have repeatedly vowed to destroying Israel and killing Jews and have received Ahmedinejad’s help to do so.
So why do you argue that we have no right to defend ourselves against them?
You also say:
“Incidentally, I have watched tapes of al Manar, and yes it is indeed rampant propaganda! However, that is not my point. An institutional policy of lying and deception is.”
So you realize al Manar are not acting on their own, this is not a form of free media like CNN, BBC or even El-Jazira. It is a means to spread Hezbollah’s ideology in the world. They have been banned in Europe and the U.S since they publicly call for Jihad.
So this is what we are dealing with, why do you insist we have no right to do so?
This is not a war on Muslims or Arabs in general, why do you keep trying to make it seem so?
to Mad with Anger
“Lebanon is killing us” is not a headline, it is a slogan which appears on the picture of an anti-war demonstration on the Haaretz Internet site . The article is about the “Four mothers” – the anti-war organization which demanded Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon before 2000. The slogan means “Our presence in Lebanon is killing us, let’s withdraw our troops out of Lebanon” and relates to the situation before 2000. Please read the article and you will understand the meaning.
Everybody in Israel knows, that Hezbollah is killing Israelis, not the Lebanon as a state.
You wrote :
“can someone tell me where in israeli news online does it mention any news about the 600,000 lebanese who fled their homes, or about the almost 500 dead people, or about the devastating pictures of destructions in the southern suburbs of beirut???? ”
Please see the second entry on the main page of Haaretz :
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743736.html
“Lebanon’s health minister estimated Thursday that as many as 600 civilians have been killed so far, though the official toll stood at 382.”
Another entry in Jerusalem Post :
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292006828&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
“…Egeland placed the current number of displaced Lebanese at upward of 600,000 …”
See a photo of a bombed Beirut block in the following article :
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292023489&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Accusations of Israel intentionally targeting civilians and U.N. are absurd. These allegations are based on the assumption that a military operation in foreign territory is as surgical as some sort of a medical operation. Since the beginning of this operation two Israeli helicopters collided with one another in Israeli territory, another helicopter crash landed in Israel (both with casualties), and another helicopter shot and wounded 5 Israeli soldiers, A F-16 fighter jet crashed on takeoff too (with no casualties). Do those also seem intentional to someone here? Are the attacks sometimes sloppy? Maybe, but the only way to establish if the IDF is sloppy is by comparing them to other similar military operations done by other countries.
What r u talking about u stupid jews?Ru crazy? When Israel targets and kills schools they are not cowards. When half of teh lebanese killed r kids we are the terrorists? U can defend urself but we cant? Thats why u have over 30,000 arab prisoners? Thats why u let ur children write hate letters on th missles before firing? Thats why u stole palestine and want to take lebanon to. Thats why u fight with missles and airplanes given to u by the usa. while lebnon fights with handmade bombs. Thats why u have laser bombs that target the exact. Thats why several israeli ministers and heads said that there is nothing such as an arab nation. Inshallah we will dominate u and wipe u off the surface of teh earth.
“It is an illusion to hope that the 700,000 Lebanese refugees will direct their fury at their government, or that the population that still remains in place will evict the Hezbollah members from among it. As far as the population is concerned, responsibility for its catastrophe lies entirely with Israel, and failure to cooperate with whoever fights against Israel would be considered national treason. It was foolish to assume that the Lebanese political elite would dare to confront Hezbollah and use force against it. And anyway, who was even capable of using force? The Lebanese Army, whose bases were bombed as well?” http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743764.html
As for the US media being “free and independent”
http://www.prwatch.org/node/1116
And here we have a new twist to Israeli propaganda
“Turning the Public Into A Megaphone
Influencing the press is apparently no longer enough. The Israeli government, through its Consul General in New York, in what may be an illegal attempt by a foreign government to manipulate domestic public opinion, is now reaching out directly to the American public. It is an attempt to get Israel?s supporters to become their ?megaphone? in what?s described as ?a new battleground:? the Internet.
Here?s a direct solicitation from the Consulate received on July 24:
?Dear friend,
During the last couple of weeks we have received many phone calls and emails from people who are asking what can be done to support Israel during the current situation.
Many of us recognize the importance of the Internet as the new battleground for explaining Israel’ position. With that in mind, an Israeli software company have recently developed a free, safe and useful tool – the Internet Megaphone.
Please go to http://www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, articles that require a talk back, etc.?
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-28.htm
The Israel Project:
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.672809/k.A62A/For_Journalists.htm
I guess you guys, Vadim and Roy, have already been contacted :)
You both make me AND others here want to PUKE!
So, you want to say that the Lebanese are trying to “up-play their casualties? I refer you to post #272 and the fact that no matter HOW many Lebanese civilian dead there are now, you CANNOT deny the fact that there are NINETEEN dead Israeli civilians who I happen to mourn right along with you because I am a Catholic and from the depth of my convictions wish to see NO civilians dead. Targetting civilians is WRONG WRONG WRONG no matter who does it, but the numbers FOR YEARS speak the truth and for you two to continue trying to convince anyone reading here that Israel is not GROSSLY guilty of killing civilians is just plain BS. As Thomas said above, you DON”T enter a porceline shop with an elephant. No matter now much you disdain the porceline shop owner!!! This WILL create more of what you are supposedly fighting which will make even more “poor me” victims out of you which IS your goal as you continue to influenc MY county, the US to go down this road of destruction lock step with you. Just beware, the voices of truth here in the States ARE speaking out against you and you WILL have your comeupance sooner than you think!!
http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=1968&issue_id=36
Fact- Israel may have opened up something beyond a can of worms and instigated a war with holy warriors that will never cease.
Fact- this is nothing new in the past several decades
Statement- In the USA our constitution states we shall have the right to bear arms. The right is being eroded although we still got that right. There is no asterisk that says with those arms we shall destroy thine enemy states or neighbors. This would not be taught or tolerated by anyone.
In the Hizbullah culture and education it is stated they raise children from a young age to hate Israel and nurture a holy warrior mind set. How am I to know if this is fact or fiction but this gets reported.
In the USA, responsible weapons owners generally just use fire arms to hunt. Children might be taught to operate firearms to shoot a Bear, a Buck or Deer but are not taught to kill humans unless they choose law enforcement or the military for careers later on in life.
Fact- War is war and it’s been open season for Israelis on anything Hizbullah that moves or bears it’s trademark
The impressions I get is World Opinion is against the fighting
Fact-World opinion seems to be against Israel and USA politics
Statement- No one wants to see this fight. IMHO I thinks the majority of the public in the USA would feel the same as to asking why we always have to be the Big Brother in these conflicts. I’m certain Europe has much more at stake in this than USA interests alone, and what news propaganda would have us swallow, although we seem to take all the heat on their(Europes) behalf.
Don’t blame our people though. Only about half our citizens who are eligible go vote. The Republicans and Democ- rats in power are all one in the same. The Democ-rats are only further murking things up because of big political pac money bias that endorses a pro Israel policy. There is confrontation and indecision in the ranks as to which side to have empathy for. I think our public just prays for recovery for all the people adversely affected by the war, and a speedy end to the current fighting.
Stop a bullet or bomb with your positive thoughts….
?It is also not alright for the Israeli Offence Force to ?accidentally? shoot people in the head on a regular basis either.? I do not know what you are talking about. Please provide some evidence, not empty slogans.”
“By evidence, I mean some serious and objective sources – wikipedia, central news agencies of US and Europe.”
OK Vadim prepared to hoisted by your own petard! … I have also included some links on how Israel’s “Apartheid Wall” has been declared illegal under international law.
Film maker murdered by soldier: A British cameraman shot dead in the Gaza Strip by an Israeli soldier was murdered, an inquest jury has decided.[BBC]
Film-maker’s death ‘was murder’: The shooting of a British film maker in Gaza was “cold-blooded murder”, a security expert has told an inquest. [BBC]
Activist who died for conviction: Rachel Corrie, the American killed by an Israeli army bulldozer, was a committed peace activist even before her arrival in the Gaza Strip in 2002. [BBC]
Israeli guilty of shooting Briton: A former Israeli soldier has been found guilty of the manslaughter of British student Tom Hurndall in the Gaza Strip.
Quest for truth over Gaza death [BBC]
UN rules against Israeli barrier: The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel’s West Bank barrier is illegal and construction of it should be stopped immediately.
BBC documentary proves Israeli army murdered Rachel Corrie. [News247]
The Court finds that the construction by Israel of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and its associated r?me are contrary to international law; it states the legal consequences arising from that illegality. [Intenational Court Of Justice - The Hague]
The killing fields of Rafah [Gideon Levy - Haaretz]
Of course, there are HUNDREDS of similar incidents of atrocities perpetrated on Palestinians, but as they are currently occupied by a state which is institutionally racist, they have no recourse to law, or publicity for that matter. Sadly for false propaganda disseminators like yourself UK and US citizens do!
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP LYING NOW?
to Robin
“You both make me AND others here want to PUKE!”
Hmm… Very strong argument ! Please try to control yourself, Robin.
With regard to the Haaretz article, you can see that Israel is a democratic country, with pluralistic society and free press. You can see, that anti-war articles are published in Israeli newspapers. Tonight, there is once a again an anti-war demonstration in Tel-Aviv.
With regard to the porcelaine shop and the elephant – see the abstract questions which I asked in # 153. Can you cope with such questions ?
ROy, vadim
Do you really think that in this manner, the “state of Israel” will be able to disarm Hezbolla and solve the security problem of the Northern frontier ?
Is that the best you can manage? With all due respect, ANY sensitive, intelligent, compassionate person like Robin would want to puke after reading your attempts to reduce the slaughter of innocents into a smart-arse “pointscoring” exercise. Your lack of the faintest shred of humanity, fundamental human decency and compassion makes me want to puke too. Please excuse me whilst I run to the bathroom!
im a kid. im shocked and appalled. how EVIL.
Dearest Vadim, :) :) :)
You ask me to control myself. Excuse me, but how f—ing dare you say this to me or others whose families are in Lebanon at the moment amid the carnage your country is reeking there?!!
As for your post #153, I do not wish to entertain the musings of someone who refers to people such as myself and others as “Martians”
and then in #284 state the following, “In general, I propose to stick to the Lebanon issue, the one which is discussed in this post.” but yet try to bait others into topics about past European wars AND discount the Palestinian issue because you don’t find it pertinent to this thread. OH my my, what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to decieve. YOU ARE TALKING IN CIRCLES!! And yet you continue to discount anything said here to refute your lies as propaganda. TEHETEHE I am LOLOLOL.
sadly, i should say if lebanon raised a white flag, israel would probably say “ohhh an enemy, lets BOMB IT!!!!”
i have to agree with robin. shes right on all the reffering accounts
well, if i could do something i would, but what can a kid do?
I ask that all join in the following prayers for peace.
http://www.totalcatholic.com/universe/index.php?news_id=1386&start=0&category_id=&parent_id=0&arcyear=&arcmonth=
http://www.ncccusa.org/iraq/peaceprayers.html
And finally,
FOR OUR WORLD
We need to stop.
Just stop.
Stop for a moment.
Before anybody
Says or does anything
That may hurt anyone else.
We need to be silent.
Just silent.
Heart Silent for a moment.
Before we forever lose
The blessing of songs
That grow in our hearts.
We need to notice.
Just notice.
Notice for a moment.
Before the future slips away
Into ashes and dust of humility.
Stop, be silent, and notice.
In so many ways, we are the same.
Our differences are unique treasures.
We have, we are, a mosaic of gifts
To nurture, to offer, to accept.
We need to be.
Just be.
Be for a moment.
Kind and gentle, innocent and trusting,
Like children and lambs,
Never judging or vengeful
Like the judging and vengeful.
And now, let us pray,
Differently, yet together,
Before there is no earth, no life,
No chance for peace.
The above was written by Mattie Stepanek, a severely handicapped American boy who died at the age of 14 in 2004. This poem was written in 2001, at the age of 11
You can learn more about him at http://www.mattieonline.com/
Prayers to all who are seeking peace and a stop to the carnage in Palestine and Lebanon. Prayers to those in Israel who are in fear from the Qassams. Prayers to change the hearts of stone who continue to chant for war and prayers that all of the innocents may be raised up on eagle’s wings into heaven.
to Robin,
Amen to that.
Mad with Anger
Christian Greek Orthodoxe
:) :) :)
Ditto.
Ok Robin, Paul
There are some people I have learned to respect in this blog despite the fact that I disagree with them. People like Thomas, Mad with Anger, Antoine and others too. You two seem unable to get over your pure and authentic hatred and create dialogue.
“You both make me AND others here want to PUKE!”
Good, puke all you want, the truth hurts and I will make you hear it.
As Thomas says my discussion with you two ends here.
You two can go choke on your anger and hate together.
Imagine the following scenario:
A large and powerful terrorist organization in Cuba with tens of thousands of armed militia men with an arsenal of rockets and missiles, fortifying themselves within Cuban civilian population, building mass underground bunkers and operation centers, and using much of the county as a military base and aiming their rockets into Florida. For many years these terrorists threaten to wipe Florida off the map. These terrorists also have a political wing which holds around 20% of the seats in the Cuban parliament, some even members of the government. The Cuban authorities don’t have the ability and/or the will to face them, and at best merely ignore their presence and allow them to carry out their business. These terrorists kidnap American soldiers from U.S soil and fire missiles to Key-West from time to time and the U.S government decides not to face them for many years and to allow their power to grow. The U.S government even decides this one time to negotiate with them and give into their demands. Until finally, the U.S does decide to face them after another attack, this time even deadlier than before, breaks the Camel’s back. These terrorists respond by shooting an even larger number of rockets into Key-West causing additional civilian casualties, and proceed by threatening to fire deadlier missiles into Miami. They make good on their promise and after additional American civilian casualties, residents from the entire southern Florida metropolitan area are forced to evacuate or stay in bomb shelters due to the threat. Some of the missiles hit Biscayne Bay and ships in the Miami port must be redirected to other ports in the country. As if that is not enough, these terrorists threaten to reach farther and with yet deadlier missiles. They insinuate that they will launch missile attacks to Orlando and possibly other cities as well. During this entire time they refuse to release the captive soldiers unless their demands are fully met. What would you demand that your country does in such a case? Surrender to these terrorists demands and be their hostages forever, or demand that your country fights them relentlessly? Would you want a cease fire with them? Would you want a cease fire with Ben-Laden, and allow him to choose when to strike you again?
Pax Christi’s Muslim, Jewish prayer for peace
“O God, you are the source of life and peace. Praised be your name forever. We know it is you who turn our minds to thoughts of peace. Hear our prayer in this time of war.
?Your power changes hearts. Muslims, Christians, and Jews remember, and profoundly affirm, that they are followers of the one God, children of Abraham, brothers and sisters; enemies begin to speak to one another; those who were estranged join hands in friendship; nations seek the way of peace together.
?Strengthen our resolve to give witness to these truths by the way we live.
Give to us: understanding that puts an end to strife; mercy that quenches hatred; and forgiveness that overcomes vengeance. Empower all people to live in your law of love.
Amen.”
Roy from Haifa,
Since you like the imagination game, you reminded me of an article which you might like play the same game with.
So, follow me to this post please:
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/30/would-you-dream-of-returning-to-your-country-your-homes/
to Paul
As I understand all your links relate to the following
1. James Miller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_%28filmmaker%29
2. Tom Hurndall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
3. Rachel Corrie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
4. Palestinian casualties in Gaza during Al-Aqsa Intifada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada
5. The International Court of Justice ruling against Israel’s West Bank barrier http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3879057.stm
I would like to answer your claims one by one :
1. I was not aware of the James Miller’s case. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. What can I say – it seems that Israeli army failed to conduct proper investigation of the case. If I could influence it, I would vote for reopening of the investigation. In general, Israeli Military Police conducts many investigations of alleged “illegal use of a weapon”. As you can see in the case 2, the soldier who shot Tom Hurndall was put on trial and convicted of manslaughter.
2. Tom Hurndall – I already answered.
3. Rachel Corrie – you can see the IDF response :
“The driver at no point saw or heard Corrie. She was standing behind debris which obstructed the view of the driver and the driver had a very limited field of vision due to the protective cage he was working in.
“The driver and his commanders were interrogated extensively over a long period of time with the use of polygraph tests and video evidence. They had no knowledge that she was standing in the path of the tractor. An autopsy of Corrie’s body revealed that the cause of death was from falling debris and not from the tractor physically rolling over her. It was a tragic accident that never should have happened.”
4. Al-Aqsa Intifada.
From the link : “Many Palestinians consider the intifada to be a war of national liberation against foreign occupation, whereas many Israelis consider it to be a terrorist campaign… The death toll both military and civilians of the entire conflict in 2000-2004 is estimated to be 3,223 Palestinians and 950 Israelis…” As in any war – civilian casualties happen. Are you claiming that Israeli soldiers are more trigger-happy than soldiers of other fighting armies ? I do not know. To arrive to such conclusion, some work should be done to compare behavior and practices of other fighting armies. Are you claiming that Israeli Military Police is not effective in its investigations ? I do no know. Some study of different Military Police investigations in different fighting armies should be done to answer such questions. If you would ask me, I support proper investigation of all the cases of illegal use of weapons and for proper punishment of all the offenders. I did not claim that Israeli army is perfect, as any other fighting army. In any case, despite any flaws in the Israeli army, Israel still has right for self defence.
5. In the link you yourself provided – ” Israel insists the barrier is needed to keep out West Bank militants. The Palestinians consider it a land grab.
The court’s decision is not binding, but can serve as a basis for UN action.”
The court decision is not binding. In general, some UN resolutions and International Court of Justice rulings, BY THEIR DEFINITION, have recommendatory character.
P.S. Paul and Robin, having answered your last post, I would like to finish my discussion with you both. I tried to have some genuine discussion here, and not just point scoring technic, which you, Paul, are using. Any claim which I bring here, I provide evidence, and still, you accuse me of lying. I tried to have some intelligent discussion with you – with allegories, comparing historical facts, evidences. You, Robin, accuse me of deceiving. I tried to have some polite discussion here, and you resorted to puking and personal attacks.
ENOUGHHHHH
I woke up today to learn that there is another massacre in Qana.
Are we destined to be massacred every once in a while. So far, 50 people were found dead under the ruins, the ruins of a shelter in Qana, in southern lebanon. im watching the news now, it is apalling, it is horrible, i cant believe how inhumane this is. this has become beyond necessary, this has become a crime against humanity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm
I forgot to mention that more than 25 of them ate children
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744295.html
this has gone too far
MAD with Anger,
Please tell me, why didn’t the people leave this village ? They know that it is a war zone, it is in south Lebanon, and Hizballa are firing rockets from there constantly. Israel has been asking people to leave from that region for so long ! 600,000 have already done so, why are these people still there ? Don’t they understand Hizballa is cynically using them as human shields ? Hizballa is the scum of the earth and these civilain deaths make me feel awful and sad. But tell me what can the IDF do ? how is the IDF supposed to fight Hizballa ? The Lebenese should demand that Nasrallah be brought to justice for what he is turing Lebanon into.
To Vadim and Roy, we don’t expect you saying the truth, we know your point of view, we don’t need it, and specially don’t care for it. As for using wikipdia as source, we all know that it’s not reliable, cause the articles there could be written by you for exemple. Permit me to say that defending the massacres is appalling, pretending that Hezbollah is responsable of the death of the lebanese is so false, that doesn’t need to be mentionned. Israel is losing the battle, the crime of this morning is the great evidence of that. No state based on violence and hatery can survive, you just have to review your course of history. As for gentlemen, and good poeple there (like hanane who wants to live in peace) in the occupied Palestine, i urge them to leave the country if they want to be in peace with themselfs, otherwise, they will choose the evil side of the zionists.
to Roy from Haifa,
Funny you should mention that because one BBC reporter was asked the same question. this is what he answered and i agree with him. so the reasons are the following:
1. lots of poor people there, so most of them have no car or no money to buy fuel for the car because ALL gas stations were bombed
2. They were afraid to leave because of the terror that israel might bomb everything that moved, hence all the bombing of the cars or trucks with civilians in them that already had occured, even ambulances and red cross.
3. all the roads are blocked, they are totally isolated, they cannot leave anywhere. someone here once said that it is known for people to walk 20 kms a day, let’s suppose they walked, where would they go, and how would they cross.
4. lots of people are sick or old, they CANNOT walk, and they dont have any medicine because NO ONE is capable of reaching them.
5. they think that being in a shelter is somewhat safe for them, but little they knew that Israel is capable of raising buildings to the ground
6. they may still be attached to their houses and they dont want to leave out of solidarity, which is something i do respect.
i dont think i need to provide more information about why these villagers did not leave. even israel apologized for this, but as usual this massacre was justified just like you are doing roy.
this is a shame and inhumane
MAD with ANGER,
Please understand, Israel has been pleading that the civilians leave for more than two weeks. I think that is even enough time to leave by foot. The Lebanese government should establish refugee camps in north Lebanon, as Israel has done for people In south Israel. The Lebenese government should take some responsibility caring for its people. I think staying in the vicinity of Hizbullah’s rocket launchers is plain suicide, even if it is out of solidarity with Hizbullah. Don’t get me wrong, the event in Qana makes me feel ashamed and sad, but I still think that most of the responsibly lays with these Hizbalha terrorists.
Haitham,
Your imaginary example is irrelevant. Are you implying that Lebanon is fighting this war for the Palestinians or for anyone else? Remember, there was no occupation of Lebanon when this thing started. We are talking about Lebanon here; I am not talking about the Palestinians, why are you mixing apples and oranges? Let’s focus on what’s going on in Lebanon. I think my scenario is very relevant in that sense. Think of my example just for the heck of it.
Mad with anger, That was a terrible mistake and the people that made the mistake should be punished, but that still a mistake.
By the way, you forgot one big reason for the presence of civilians in south Lebanon. The Hisballah threatens civilians from leaving their homes, in order to force such a sad situations.
Israel knows that there is still population in south Lebanon. That building was observed many times and there were seen Hizballah terrorists nearby launching rockets on Israeli villages and then getting inside that building.
Civilians were not seen in the observations. It is known that Hizballah is using civilians as human armor and I am sorry to write that but this is one of their means to stop Israel, they want that mistakes to happen by hiding with civilians and even threatening the civilians from leaving their villages.
Roy, Reality check (part 92)
“The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday ACROSS THE BORDER IN SOUTHERN LEBANON, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.” Source Associated Press
The Sheba’a farms are a part of Lebanon which is being occupied by Israel (see above).
UN map of Sheba’a Farms.
Israeli missiles had clearly pierced the very centre of the red cross on the roof of each ambulance. [Robert Fisk - Independent (UK)]
Now that’s what I call “precision bombing”!
Roy,
You don’t get it; the root of all evil is the Israeli occupation of Palestine. What you see going on Lebanon is just one of the results, but the cause remains and will always be your State occupation of Palestine. So, it is very much relevant.
Your scenario is nothing close to truth. My presented scenario is all the truth.
PS. Comments on this post is now closed. Guess why? A new version of “Love Gifts” is presented, and guesses what too? A new Massacre by the Terrorist State of Israel has taken place.
Check the new post :
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/30/this-is-the-terrorist-state-of-israel-qana-massacre-july-30-2006/
For those who think that the people of southern Lebanon who are just plain victims of their own refusal to leave when the Israelis politely asked them to:
”
The Sunday Times – World
The Sunday Times July 30, 2006
Birth, death and destruction on Lebanon?s road to hell
Marie Colvin sees the innocents caught up in retreat from besieged village
Three hours after she gave birth to a boy named Attar, 27-year-old Abir Feras started walking. Her home had been destroyed by an Israeli airstrike and when the next barrage blew in the windows of the hospital where she should have been resting, she feared that all her family would die unless they left.
First she took the intravenous drip out of her arm. Then she wrapped the newborn in a blanket as her husband Mohammed gathered her three other young children together.
With the scream of Israeli jets overhead, they began the nine-mile trek from Bint Jbeil, a southern Lebanese village besieged by the Israeli army, to the town of Tibnin, where 1,600 desperate men, women and children had taken refuge in another hospital.
They had to walk because no cars could be driven on the cratered road.
?I was breathing so hard I was dizzy and in so much pain,? Feras said when she reached the hospital, a stopping place for the poor, the old and the infirm, many of whom had been trapped in their villages under an onslaught for the past two weeks. ”
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2291489_3,00.html
Please do not try telling us anymore that this is the fault of the people who did not just take off walking to safety. That is about the most inhumane statement I have heard here. Did you have to walk to safety? Have your roads been bombed and the cars traveling on those roads been targeted? Do you have gasoline available? Do you have bomb shelters (I know you do) because these people do not, why should they, they are living next to the “peaceful democratic state of Israel” :) Has your country been DESTROYED in 18 days? Is there 21/2 BILLION estimated damage to your infrastructure? Have you had to evacuate thousands out of your country by massive foreign efforts. Have you not been able to bathe for weeks because the water lines have been destroyed. Have you had to. Basically, YOU DON”T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU”RE TALKING ABOU ROY FROM HAIFA!!! Oops, sorry to become angry once more. And on that note, Mad with Anger, I can pin a name on you even if it’s ficticious. You and your family are very much in my prayers and I hope very much they have reached safety.
haitham, i agree wit ur saying,,u r right offcoarse