Die with Love, version 2.0!
Written by Haitham on 24. July 2006, 2031hrs // Part of Haitham's adventure in Arab, Israel, Lebanon, Media, Middle East, Palestine, Photos, Religion, Terrorism, War, War Crimes // Other posts by Haitham
Photo caption: Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men dance with Israeli soldiers in front of a mobile artillery unit positioned in the northern village of Fassuta, near the Lebanese border, July 24, 2006. REUTERS/Gil Cohen Magen.
We all condemn the parents of the kids signing the Israeli bombs “with love” falling on Lebanese civilians and innocents, but we didn’t see the parents while doing the same.
Worse, here are matured Jewish men signing bombs, again:
Dear Arab/Muslims/Christians/Lebanese/Palestinians…
Die with Love. We are dancing on your dead bodies!
Yours,
Ultra-Orthodox Jews
Received the death gift.
Regards,
Now, convince us that these Jewish radicals are not less terrorist than ‘Bin Laden.’
I didn’t want to say this, and I don’t think it should be believed so, but, if Islam is tagged with all the names one can think of, how can you convince the people who sees this now that Judaism is not less violent than other religion(s)? If at all there is a violent religion!
Also, how can you convince Arab and Muslims in particular all around the world that this is not a ‘holy war’ for Israel? And if it is so, why can’t it be ‘holy war’ for the other side? And why Jewish war is ‘holy’, but others war is ‘terrorism’?
And, what is the message they are writing here? I don’t think they are dancing because it’s end of war, but because they are warmongers, blood suckers who are sending their signed bombs to civilians to “Die with Love.”
This is a documented, signed ‘with love’, terrorism, by the Israel terrorist war-machine!
Sphere: Related Content
Do you like - Die with Love, version 2.0! - 
Article Tags>>
July 24th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
to MAD with ANGER (the last comment from the previous post)
2. I do consider myself lucky that I live in a state which cares for its citizens. I hope you too will live in such a state one day. I am not cynnical, I realy mean it.
4,5,7,8,9,10 Israel hits the Lebanon insfrastructure,bridges,fuel tanks to make it hard for Hezbollah to operate inside Lebanon - to disrupt Hezbollah?s communications and resupplies. Israel bombs TV annenas to prevent broadcasting Al-Manar - Hezbollah TV and it is a part of weakening Hezbollah. Israel imposes air, see and ground blockade on Lebanon to prevent resupply of Hezbollah and to prevent smuggling the kidnapped soldiers out of the country. It is all a part of the war on Hezbollah, nobody wants to harm the Lebanese civilians intentionally.
So the hard question is how would civilians evacuate themselves in such circumstances. I admit I do not know the answer, I am not familiar enough with the geography and conditions of Lebanon. I can think about just leaving by foot, I think people can go some 20 - 40 kilometers a day. Or to drive by car as far as yoy can get and to continue from there by foot. The fact is that it is possible - there are very many refugees in Lebanon who did managed to flee the South.
I admit the Lebanese civilians have hard times these days. But Israel does not do all this in order to hurt the civilians, it does defends itself by fighting Hezbollah.
Unfortunetely, in a war you cannot prevent civilian casulties. Are you aware of any war in the modern history, in which there were no civilian casulties ?
Israel has to fight this war with Hezbollah to defend its Northern border.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Ok, comments are not moderated here (so far), so be nice otherwise I’ll switch back to moderation and kick some asses.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
…but you know, those are “low class, uneducated, have their pizza delivered across the border and one of them actually is a member of the Israeli Peace movement (aren’t they all?)” bla bla bla.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Haitham, my advice is you delete the posts that try to derail derail the discussion or poison it, like talk of Israel being a democracy, a free country…etc (what on earth do those arguments have to do with adult men showing their real hate?)
July 24th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
[...] ren’t alone in writing their death messages to Lebanon. Here’s some more images from Sabbah’s blog showing older Israeli men doing the same: Offline [...]
July 24th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
This is weird to me, because a lot of Ultra Orthodox Jews that I know personally are very much anti-violence.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Nice going Haitham - this might even more of a hit with the colorful types you attracted for the former photo. I mean, they say kids steal the show but for your new fans orthodox Jews are at least as attractive, and they fit their world view even nicer than a pigtailed little girl. If you’re really lucky you might find some photo of orthodox Jewish kids, your pageviews will skyrocket!
Apparently your explanation to these photos is that Jews (or at least Israeli Jews) simply enjoy killing Arab/Muslims/Christians/Lebanese/Palestinians. If I may suggest another explanation, could it possibly be that the people who sign these shells really think they are going to the same Hezbollah soldiers that shot so far over 2000 rockets on them? Maybe you should give that idea a thought too.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
to Paul
I see some problematic way of proving things in your comments and the posts in this blog. The prove goes as follows : Haganah looks like the settlers, so they are the same as the settlers. If Haganah looks like the settlers it proves me nothing. Can you support your claims about Haganah with some objective reference ? Have you any objective sources to suport the claims about the ethnic cleansing ?
The same prove is applied in this and the previous posts. Despite the fact, that the girls write on the shells “With love to Nasralla”, it can look as if they would write “With love to Lebanese children”, so it is as bad as if they acutaly wrote “With love to Lebanese children”. This method of proving things is dubious, and I do not know who can be convinced by it.
Another dubious method of presenting things by you is to exaggerate.
“… Irgun … and … Lehi … went on to have a HUGE influence in Israel.” HUGE influence - is an exaggeration.
“the far right “Likud” party” - is rather funny exaggeration today, after the disengagement from the Gaza strip, when the Likud actually evacuated the settlers. So how about the “lebensraum” ?
Your claim “Haganah … gave birth to the vile Irgun.” - is misleading.
From the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun :
“Irgun was founded in 1931 by Avraham Tehomi, following a largely political and ideological split with the Haganah … Irgun differentiated itself from the Haganah by disassociating from the socialist ideology and the prevalent strategy of Havlagah, or restraint.”
Haganah condemned Irgun, on several occasions cooperated with them, on several occasions had armed clashes with them and on some occasions helped British to arrest them. Did the Lebanon government do anything to restrain Hezbollah ?
And the final question - how all this digging in the historic events before 70 years is relevant to today’s fighting of Israel against Hezbollah in order to defend its Northern border ?
July 24th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
Haitham,
If you have looked at any pictures from WWII or other major wars of our century, you would know that writing messages on bombs is done by cultures the world over. Why does it make it worse if Jews do it? Is it because of who the target of those bombs are?
I am sympathetic to all those who fall under fire of bombs from every side, and am also aware that just because an act is done by many, doesn’t mean that action is validated.
Just remember, the Allies and the Axix powers signed bombs, committed war crimes, and killed innocents. War is hell, and there will always be those who revel in it.
Remember the children in Palestine dancing in the street when the news of 9/11 reached their ears? Children do as their parents do….and both sides of this war should be shamed.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Haitham, I could post my exact same post from your previous propaganda topic, instead I will ask you one simple question. Does this “Israel terrorist war-machine” as you so many times like to call it, have a right to exist or not ? What do you wish will happen to this state ?
July 24th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Sabbah, ironically they carry the flag of the crown. Is it that the british are behind this? They want to colonise the whole world again is it.
One simple question to the viewers. We have seen the real face of israeli’s here. The whole israeli population is behind this. Hezbollah is only fighting for their people. that is fraction of lebaneese population.
Who are extremists on this planet? Time and again they preached hate.
It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?
What if the Hitler would have won ? Would the world be a better place today ?
If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?
Hostilities against muslims all over the globe, and random detentions of the muslims around the globe is it been incited by jewish network to mobilise hatred and demonise islam.
Statements of Prime Minister of Israel that Iranian president and other middle east leaders fate would resemble that of Saddam Hussein. Why are our leaders calling for cease fire.
How long should our generations suffer under the shadow of the gun?. If that is what they want it better to fight for our right for our land.
Resolution 1559, How did the United Nations mobilise such resolution and why should middle eastern nations comply with a resolution when the international law is not abided by the other parties. We are not obliged to comply with the laws. There has been no referendum of acceptance of any international treaty or law that we are aware. It is imposed by martial law on the people of palestine and the middle east.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
Roy from Haifa,
I’ve answered this trillion times, but no problem in repeating it.
Yes, Israel has the right to coexist peacefully with its neighbors. To do this, all U.N. resolutions should be implemented, starting from 242 on words (instead of going into many details). Until then, Israel is an occupation and all under occupation has all rights to resist and defend themselves (as Bush like to put it).
July 24th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
[...] ?? ????????… ??????? ????????????, ??? ?? ????!onetwo(Reply to this) [...]
July 24th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Photo caption : An Ultra-Orthodox Jewish man writes on artillery shells at a position in the northern village of Fassuta, near the Lebanese border, July 24, 2006. — REUTERS /Gil Cohen Magen (ISRAEL) [See more on Sabbah's Blog ] [IMG] Tags : Israel, Palestine, Liban, Criminal, War, Genocide, Terrorism
July 24th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
To Haitham
Was “the disengagement” (the Israili evacutation from the Gaza strip) not a part of implementation of 242 resolution ? So why once Israel starts implementing UN resolutions, it receives more attacks ? Why does Hezbollah not leave Israel in peace and attack it after the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 ? Why do the Palestinian militants in the Gaza strip fire Qasam rockets on Israeli towns after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza ? Why do the Palestinian militants attack Israeli position on Israeli territory, kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers ? Both Hezbollah and the Palestinian militants simply do not let Israel to implement the resolutions and force Israeli army to return to Lebanon and Gaza.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Vadim from Haifa,
Is the ‘apartheid wall’ another part of 242 that Israel is implementing? Are the killer of Huda’s family are ‘clean hands’ when compared to PoW with ‘hands full of blood’ in the Israeli jails? Then why Arabs don’t have the right to punish the criminals just like the Israeli does? Did the occupation of Gaza end with what you call ?withdraw?? What about borders? Sea? Sky? Underground? Was it also librated from occupation? Did Israel withdraw from West Bank as well? Or you think Gaza and West Bank are two separate countries? Did killing of innocents in Gaza as well West Bank stop with ?withdraw? from Gaza?
“IF” Israel wants to implement the resolutions, believe me, if they come tomorrow and say that they are ready to resolve this occupation and abed to all U.N. resolution, believe me, all, 99% (including me) of the Arab world and Muslim world will stand by Israel side and help Israel do so and live in peace. Only IF!!!!!
Give me a break!
July 24th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Haitham, “99% of the Arab/Muslim world” includes those who elected Hamas to Palestinian government? It includes Ahmendnijad and his voters? Nassrallah and his supporters?
Yes, the border is closed in Gaza Strip. This is because the Palestinians, instead starting to build their independent state following Israeli withdrawal, instead used the territory to fire Kassam rockets into Israel and prepare suicide bombers.
I agree there are many Arab people who will accept Israel within 1967 borders. It seems that most Palestinians are not amongst them. Just reading the comments to your posts demonstrates that, let alone Palestinians’ actions.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
There you go… you judge, you give yourself the right to decide what is good and what is bad for others and what they should and should not do, where they should live and who they should elect, then you come crying asking why they are resisting us!
Learn to trust and live in peace. That?s all what I have for you, Nir.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:06 am
to Haitham
I think the Nir’s comment related to the fact that Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. See the link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Beliefs
So if most of the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they also do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. Is not it a true conclusion ? They knew what they voted for, did not they ?
July 25th, 2006 at 12:30 am
Vadim,
My understanding of the reasons for Palestinians voting for Hamas was not that Palestinians do not recognise Israel’s right to exist (although there will be some that do feel that way).
I remember reading something that the US financed a Fatah propaganda campaign. This was widely viewed as the US interfering with the Palestinian’s democratic process so they rebelled by voting the last party the US wanted to win, Hamas.
This is the only article I could Google and it’s a bit one-sided but I’m sure if you look there are more.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article135054.html
As far as I’m concerned, both parties involved in this horrible mess have committed enough atrocities against the other to relinquish any right to claim the moral high ground in this situation. They’re both wrong, they’ve both failed their people and those that are suffering are the innocents on the ground.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:31 am
Vadim from Haifa,
Not true!
Palestinians voted for Hamas not because they don’t recognize Israel, but because they lost all hopes of peace with Israel, so they preferred to give a chance for someone who might help them in their daily life rather than the never answered promises by the previous corrupted government, which done nothing by the way. Even though the previously elected government was pro existing with Israel, but Israel made it impossible for Palestine to exist.
On the other hand, why should Hamas recognize Israel? Does Israel recognize Palestine so that the Palestinians will have to recognize Israel?
July 25th, 2006 at 12:34 am
Haitham,
Those people are messianic Jews from Chabad. Their Rabbi is dead but they believe that he is still alive and that he might come back any minute as the Messiah. Crazy people indeed.
I am not surprised that the Israelis (that think that quarreling with you in your blog thinking it might change your mind about anything) did not bother to add some facts before shouting.
Peace,
Hanan
July 25th, 2006 at 12:44 am
Hanan Cohen,
That’s great. I trust all what you said, but this does not answer my question.
Isn’t this picture similar to those of Bin Laden and his gang in the sense they are not less violent-religious? Then, why is it only Arab and Muslims who are called violent? How can you convince humbles that this is not a Jewish ‘holy war’ like Bin Laden’s? Etc, etc, etc…
July 25th, 2006 at 12:50 am
I really liked Vadim’s “guidelines” for Lebanese civilians on how to run away from the battle, unfortunately this happens:
1- They run in a convoy of cars and get hit by Israeli bombs (Marwaheen= 23 killed).
2- They run in a minivan and get killed (read Independent and Guardian frontpage Monday)
3- They go to ambulances and get killed.
So, Vadim..I am afraid your guidelines are not good enough with a blood thirsty army, like the one you have.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:52 am
[...] ref=”http://sabbah.biz/mt/” title=”Sabbah’s Blog blog” target=”_blank”> Sabbah’s Blog Die with Love, version 2! Ph [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 1:04 am
Hanan,
Your information about the messianic Jews is very interesting. There are a WHOLE LOT of crazy people involved in this current situation. If I just closed my eyes I could almost imagine myself in the Dark Ages with all the “craziness” being spoken about by so many. Here is the States we have the End Time Christians whom I am sure if given the chance would also be signing these bombs. Yesterday in the LA Times there was a very interesting article about the massive support, moral and financial, Jerry Fallwell is throwing behind Israel with a fund-raising drive with an aim of ten MILLION dollars all because they are awaiting anxiously the “rapture” when they will be carried up to heaven. Yet these same “crazies” say that the “jihadists” are crazy. I say anyone wanting to “destroy” the other side completely is speaking nothing but massive annialation and craziness. There have been several wonderful comments on the first part of this topic asking for cooler heads to prevail. Yet how can these “cooler heads” prevail when Lebanon is suffering like it is? As an American simple everyday citizen I am BEGGING Israel to stop their actions in Lebanon. Enough is enough. We’ve seen what you can do, nearly totally destroy an entire country in twelve days yet these messianic “crazies” are signing more bombs. God have mercy on the world and bring some sense of sanity back to the Middle East. This is nothing less than Dante’s Inferno that we are witnessing and the perpetrator is no one other that Israel. If you are in Israel yourself, I pray you are safe, as I pray all children of God are safe. Enough death and destruction alreaddy. Enough. Peace to you and all.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:21 am
Batir, I?ve not met a single Israeli who is blood-thirsty. Certainly, there are crazy people in any country, but their number in Israel is not larger than in other countries.
Certainly, errors occur in any army in any war.
Please see the NATO mistake with Kosovo refugees during its bombing campaign in Kosovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign
July 25th, 2006 at 2:10 am
Aiyn,
You said: “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?”
I mentioned a “healthy revision of the Holocaust” not denying that the Holocaust took place, because that would be just as stupid and ignorant as denying that World War II took place. I used the word ‘healthy’ because I think it is just as big a violation of historical facts to monopolize the Holocaust as a Jewish ordeal as it is to deny that the Holocaust happened.
What I was pointing out was that:
1. Many more European ethnicities than European Jews were mass-murdered in the Holocaust.
2. The Holocaust was Europeans killing other Europeans, not only German Nazis killing German and Polish Jews and definitely not Europeans killing Israeli citizens (before that citizenship was even created).
3. Jews, among others, were picked out because they did not fit the ‘ideal’ ethnicity, not because they were Jews.
4. Treating anti-Semitism as the main problem completely ignores that other ethnicities, especially the European Roma population, still suffers under ethnocentric nationalism in Europe.
5. Today’s prejudice and intolerance against Muslims in Europe (and around the world) is not a new problem, but a relatively new symptom of the old problem (ethnocentric nationalism) that has not been adequately addressed.
You ask: “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that?”
I think a better question than asking why ‘Europe hated the Jews’ would be: Why is one/any group of people intolerant of another group of people?
Jews were perceived to be different (actually they were not different enough, so the Nazis demanded that Jews, homosexuals, and other groups had to bear a sign for differentiation purposes). That Jews happened to be one of the victims is more of a coincidence, because if there had been a sizeable minority of Muslims, Australian Aborigines, or Asians instead then they would have been the ‘perfect’ menace to society.
Ethnocentric nationalism, regardless of whether it is European, Muslim, Arab, US American, Zionist etc. is based on promoting ones own group by singling out (an)other group(s) that can be attributed with anything that can be ’sold’ as ‘undesirable’. Breeding intolerance is a very powerful tool for the propagandist trying to root support for a nationalistic cause.
Of course, it also works with playing on exaggerated victimization which explains why many Zionist supporters try to monopolize the Holocaust, because mentioning that an equal -if not higher- share of the total European Roma population perished in the Holocaust just does not do much to promote the Zionist cause!
The main lessons we have to learn are that ALL ethnicities are susceptible to ethnocentric nationalism and that we all have to learn to accept that other people have the right to look, think, speak, or dress differently.
‘Accepting’ is the key word, because ‘tolerating’ differences will only allow us to live next to each other, but not among each other!
If we could all accept that we are all people with different ethnicities rather than ethnicities in a given hierarchy then we would be able to eradicate ethnocentric nationalism.
If you put a black, a white, and a yellow infant in a sandbox then, after a brief instinctive caution, they will start playing together as equally accepted play partners. They only reason why they loose this instinctive reliance on each other regardless of their ethnic differences is if adults have ‘conditioned’ them to do so!
July 25th, 2006 at 3:07 am
I partially agree with Haitham,
First, yes, we should not stereotype. I have personally met many peace-loving Rabbis and observant Jews. Certainly, there are bad apples among all, but, I am sure, most Jews would not approve of the clown acts we see in these pictures.
My only concern is as follows: double standard in the treatment of Arabs and Jews in the media. An almost complete lack of similar types of analysis, which aim to educate people and refrain them from making generalizations, when it comes to Arabs and Muslims. For example, were these Imams in the pictures, how many Western analysts would have made any effort to offer decent analysis? Not many I think. Similarly, when we see pictures of Palestinian and Arab kids dressed as militants etc., how often do we see an accompanying analysis that explains the overall context of the scenario and its effect upon certain people? Not often. Instead, what we see are immediate generalizations of an entire people and their dehumanization. But such is hardly ever the case when it comes to the Israelis. So, there is a clear double standard in the Western media. Some Arabs dress their kids as militants simply because they are inherently evil and because their religion is evil, while Israeli parents - and their kids - who cheerfully write messages on weapons used to target civilian localities, and rabbis who do the same, do so not because they are inherently evil and because their religion is evil, but because of the complicated effect war tends to have on certain individuals etc. We are asked to understand the context of the situation, and a whole load of other factors, when faced with such pictures putting some Israelis in a bad light. This is done so that we avoid stereotyping. But a similar approach is almost completely lacking when it comes to the Arabs. This is the only qualm I have and I think that most individuals, whatever their religion, or the lack of it, and whatever their race, would, hopefully, agree with this as this double standard, in my view, is readily visible on CNN, BBC, Sky News, Fox News, and a load of other Western news channels.
Finally, Nir’s comments border on the absurd. He said that “Haitham, ?99% of the Arab/Muslim world? includes those who elected Hamas to Palestinian government?” I am not sure how he concocted the figure of 99%, but what about the majority of Israelis who went on to elect a war criminal as their prime minister, Sharon, a man who alone has more blood of the innocent in his hands than Hamas and Hezbollah combined. What about the previous war criminals elected by the Israelis, who massacred and ethnically cleansed the indigenous people of Palestine in the previous wars? Of course, we are told not to stereotype the Israelis, but the doors are open when it comes to the Palestinians, fully ignoring what has been happening to them for decades. He talked about the border of Gaza being closed and said this was because “the Palestinians…used their territory to fire Kassam rockets into Israel and prepare suicide bombers,” conveniently omitting all of the gross human rights violations committed by Israel immediately after the Palestinian elections in the Gaza Strip. Whatever Palestinian militants did, quite miniscule compared to what the Israelis did (and continue to do), occurred quite a bit after the Israeli provocations, killings and terrorism. He then said that “most Palestinians” do not recognize Israel. I find it amazing that an occupied people are being asked to recognize their oppressor?s right to exist while the occupier has always been unwilling to recognize the existence of the occupied people. Be that as it may, the Palestinians have generally recognized Israel and even Hamas has offered to hold negotiations with Israel for a permanent and peaceful settlement, notwithstanding their old rhetoric. Which side has been consistently avoiding peace talks and constantly provoking others through meaningless terrorist acts? The Israelis.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:34 am
Aiyn,
If you please, I would like to take issue with a few of your statements/questions.
1. “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?” In my opinion this is really not an issue to be brought up considering the circumstances AND the fact that no matter how you fudge the numbers, be they smaller or larger, Hitler DID carry out a program of genocide not only against the Jews, but also the Roma (gypsies), Jehovah’s witnesses, homosexuals and pow’s of different ethnicities. To try to deny that this happened is just making a VERY contraversial and easily refutable statement. Perhaps a better question would be “Why do the Arabs have to pay for the holocost? (the reason given by the victims and their supporters, a documented proof) NOT did the holocost occur which only puts one in the camp of the deniers who raise questions as to their own credibiltiy in other matters.
2. “What if the Hitler would have won ? Would the world be a better place today ?” All I can say to this statement is what my teenager likes to say all the time, AAAARE you kidding me!!!
3. “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?” Again, bringing up a painful past which is used as part of the justification for the need for the state of Israel.
This kind of question will get moderate Arabs NO WHERE.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:30 am
Aiyn, you are on shaky ground. So shaky, in fact, that I am tempted to just turn away and not bother.
“The whole israeli population is behind this.”
WHAT??? Nonsense. One of the biggest pro-Palestine activists in my area is an Israeli-born Jew. THINK before you unleash stereotypes.
As for your comments on the Holocaust… What can I say. My great uncle was five years old when the Nazis dragged him and his Jewish mother to Babii Yar. They shot her first, and she bled to death on top of him. Covering him with her body. She died. He managed to survive, but carries the scars his whole life.
And when I see such hateful ignorance levelled against the likes of my great-uncle, I have to say, this is no better than the barbarism you are accusing others of is alive and well in your heart.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:42 am
Ok so I have read all these different entries on this blog. Yes it took a while. And I have come away with some questions and some other stuff:
I did some research and I don’t see anywhere in history (at least the last 4000 years or so) where there was actually a nation or kingdom of Palestine. As far as I have seen that armpit of the globe has been ruled for eons by everybody BUT the Palestinians. So what gives? Yes Palestinians have lived on those fig tree covered dunes for so very long, but you have never ruled your own roost. If this is true…then why not use that as your call for nationhood. Don’t say that the jews came out of persecution or whatever with their nation in 1947. They have lived on the very same dunes as you guys for the SAME amount of time. And yes they have had a nation there (two actually) in the past. And yes you guys used to get along with one another. Instead of religious wars…you used to have good old fashion war about land and resources. What ever happened to the good old days?
No I am not an Israel supporter. They are commiting many evils too. My point is, both cultures have resided in these lands for equal eons. So both peoples need to stop playing “I was here first” and get along for god’s sake.
Speaking of god…somebody said it earlier…I think he was the doctor…he said that your/our gods would be “ashamed” of the way we are acting to one another. So true. We as humans should really think twice before we do ANYTHING. It MIGHT save a lot of grief. Then again maybe not.
One more thing. I have noticed a great deal of comparison between nations. I have learned a great deal of your respective nations from some of these blogs. Thank you. But I must say, one thing I did learn, is a new appriciation for MY nation. With some of these blogs I have gained insight (briefly at best, but still enough to suppliment what I already knew) what some life/politics/etc is like in Norway, Lebanon, Italy, Israel and Palestine. Let me tell you…with no offense to any of you…I am glad that I am where I am.
I hope that when all is said and done this region, and I hope it comes soon, that all peoples are left with the highest degree of Liberty that god can provide for humans upon the Earth. And that goes for my socialist friends of Norway and the rest of the EU too. Liberty is the one truism that god has bestowed upon humans. It is up to us to use good will to keep the torch afire.
Be free to be you. Let me be free to be me.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:49 am
I am very sorry about what is happening.
I have developed a great dislike of the Zionists.
There is a great chasm of news that we get in the West and what is the truth.
Again, I am sorry! I am crying about the number of children killed (let alone innocent civilians) by the Israelis (terrorists).
July 25th, 2006 at 6:38 am
Just wondering: What are you trying to prove? That there are morons in Israel? Tell news. If you find as many jewish morons in Israel as arab morons in the western world, I maybe could somehow understand your point. All I can see here in Europe are arab morons screaming “Death to Israel”. That’s indeed very convincing.
@Aiyin:
“It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?” - Come to Germany, look at the archives, visit the KZs, talk to witnesses. Yes, there were witnesses. There are even survivors.
“What if the Hitler would have won? Would the world be a better place today?”
The jews would be dead, and I think the arabs would be under German occupation, or dead, too. Bright prospects, right?
“If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much? What are the lessons we need to learn from that ?” - One lesson you should learn: Question the media, question religious or idiologic leaders, question simplistic solutions and simplistic claims of guilt, question stereotypes. Are you able to do that?
“Hostilities against muslims all over the globe, and random detentions of the muslims around the globe is it been incited by jewish network to mobilise hatred and demonise islam.” - Well, just compare the so-called “peace demonstrations” in westerns cities of the supporters of Hezbollah to those of Israel, and you will see who is really propagating hostility, death, mass-murder. It’s the poor, always victimized muslims who call for another holocaust (though they claim that the first one never did happen), who call for nukes on Israel, who chant “Death to all Jews”. I haven’t seen one demonstration where there were chants like “Death to all Muslims” or “Nukes on Palestine”. And that has nothing to do with jewish networks, thats just the way your(?) fellow muslim brethren behave all over the world. The even claim the Quran tells them to do so. Not to talk about the terrorist attacks your brethren are executing day by day in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, in Sudan. Not talking about Hezbollah fighters hiding in civilian areas, wich leads directly to a loss of safety by international law for the civilians.
July 25th, 2006 at 6:59 am
what about the slaugther that arabs carrying out in sudan , killing innocent black people , cause they black and not beliving in islam ?!!!
what about the holocaust of the armeni people by Ottoman Empire !!!!!
what about all the beheadings that going on in iraq!!!!!
why you not showing those pictures ?????!!!!
July 25th, 2006 at 7:06 am
Very Sweet… The rabbis bless the bombs before launch
good for a laugh
July 25th, 2006 at 7:17 am
Haitham,
You are right but it is not important.
It is not important who is “right” or “wrong”. What’s important is how to achieve peace. How calling Jews or Muslims all sorts of names will help peace?
Please, I am waiting for your thoughts here: http://itoot.net/crisis/2006/07/25/hate-helps-the-israeli-government/
Peace,
Hanan
July 25th, 2006 at 7:48 am
hi,very interesting discussion.I think that the problem begans when people believe that they are the ‘elected people’.It’s the same problem with the u.s.a.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:05 am
Ok, All you viewers realise that you have suffered a lot under germans and europeans. Please do go through the video of “why middle east is bleeding”. The jews instead of being greatful to the arabs, they occupied their lands and started ethnic cleansing all the arabs. Building another berlin wall. Building concentration camps like guantanamo bay. Building reservations of palestinians. They are doing all the things what a facist society does.
From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists. The bottom line is everybody has the right to exist, and israel keeps on occupying territories, abducting civilians and putting them in palestinian jails. If you say you have lost patience, so do the arabs. They have lost patience. Why is that israel is immune from all the crimes it has done. And why should we suffer.
To all the arabs and the middle east viewers. If you wish to live in reservations like american red indians as someone said on this blog. You need to wake up.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Aiyn,
You said: “It is indeed need for us to open debate about holocaust. Has it been really carried out?”
I mentioned a “healthy revision of the Holocaust” not denying that the Holocaust took place, because that would be just as stupid and ignorant as denying that World War II took place. I used the word ‘healthy’ because I think it is just as big a violation of historical facts to monopolize the Holocaust as a Jewish ordeal as it is to deny that the Holocaust happened.
What I was pointing out was that:
1. Many more European ethnicities than European Jews were mass-murdered in the Holocaust.
2. The Holocaust was Europeans killing other Europeans, not only German Nazis killing German and Polish Jews and definitely not Europeans killing Israeli citizens (before that citizenship was even created).
3. Jews, among others, were picked out because they did not fit the ‘ideal’ ethnicity, not because they were Jews.
4. Treating anti-Semitism as the main problem completely ignores that other ethnicities, especially the European Roma population, still suffers under ethnocentric nationalism in Europe.
5. Today’s prejudice and intolerance against Muslims in Europe (and around the world) is not a new problem, but a relatively new symptom of the old problem (ethnocentric nationalism) that has not been adequately addressed.
You ask: “If fascism, existed, what is the reason that they europe hated the jews so much ? What are the lessons we need to learn from that?”
I think a better question than asking why ‘Europe hated the Jews’ would be: Why is one/any group of people intolerant of another group of people?
Jews were perceived to be different (actually they were not different enough, so the Nazis demanded that Jews, homosexuals, and other groups had to bear a sign for differentiation purposes). That Jews happened to be one of the victims is more of a coincidence, because if there had been a sizeable minority of Muslims, Australian Aborigines, or Asians instead then they would have been the ‘perfect’ menace to society.
Ethnocentric nationalism, regardless of whether it is European, Muslim, Arab, US American, Zionist etc. is based on promoting ones own group by singling out (an)other group(s) that can be attributed with anything that can be ’sold’ as ‘undesirable’ and who can be blamed for everything that is not perfect. Breeding intolerance is a very powerful tool for the propagandist trying to root support for a nationalistic cause.
Of course, it also works with playing on exaggerated victimization which explains why many Zionist supporters try to monopolize the Holocaust, because mentioning that an equal -if not higher- share of the total European Roma population perished in the Holocaust just does not do much to promote the Zionist cause!
The main lessons we have to learn are that ALL ethnicities are susceptible to ethnocentric nationalism and that we all have to learn to accept that other people have the right to look, think, speak, or dress differently.
‘Accepting’ is the key word, because ‘tolerating’ differences will only allow us to live next to each other, but not among each other!
If we could all accept that we are all people with different ethnicities rather than ethnicities in a given hierarchy then we would be able to eradicate ethnocentric nationalism.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:09 am
[...] Muslim commits a crime, the whole of his religion goes on trial…The pictures below, and several others appeared at Sabbah’s blog, Die, With Love, 2.0.But please… let [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 9:13 am
[...] ould stop targetting civilians, halt its aggression in Lebanon and negotiate. Again, Sabbah posts the big photos.
Posted by dave on July 24th, [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Aiyn,
“From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists.”
It seems to me that you are pissing up the wrong tree here. If you look a little bit closer, then you will realize that what Robin, I, and many other people are doing is what too many of our forefathers forgot: To question ourselves and our societies!
What we do different than the German and other European fascists is that we challenge authority instead of just remaining silent and hoping for the best. We exchange our opininons about what is wrong in our societies, because we have learned from the Holocaust/WWII that these kind of atrocities can only happen if a majority blindly follow without questioning.
We are trying to counter the number of people within our own societies who have forgotten how to be critical. Some of our our societies are more self-critical than others and as you will see we are not the ones denying that there are problems and that atrocities are taking place.
What have you done in your society? Have you questioned any of the Muslim/Arab/whatever doctrines that are just taken for granted by your peers? Have you tried waking up you neighbour to make a small difference or are you just pissing in the wind about all the things that other people should be doing differently?
Some take charge and do whatever little they can while others just sit and whine about what everybody else is not doing. Your shit stinks too. Don’t deny it, deal with it!
PS: Haitham, please delete my double post (#40), for some reason my first post seemed to be lost in cyber space, so I posted it again.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Well, Haitham, I completely agree with you that this is a problem of trust.
Obviously I don’t expect to change your opinion any more than you will change mine, what I do hope to do is to explain the way things look from this side of the hill.
The main problem is that at the moment most Israelis simply do not trust that Palestinians, or at least most of them, really wish to live in peace side by side with Israel. In the eyes of many Israelis, the election of Hamas following the Gaza withdrawal, the firing of Kassam rockets out of Gaza and the recent Hezbollah attacks are taken by them as indicators that the struggle is not about the 1967 lines but about Israel’s existance at all.
Now, you offer different views of these events and these views are exactly the reason I read Arab blogs in the first place, instead relying on mainstream media. But the irony is that posts like above, who seem to me as portraying Israelis as murderers by nature, don’t exactly help build my trust that we can be accepted in the Mideast soon.
Again, I’m not trying to argue or convince, just trying to give an impression of how this situation looks like from here.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
I am not justifying for holocaust. Sure we have equally criticise our leader for doing little to safegaurd our interests our people need to be educated. But we are being involved in a vicious circle of oppression, seclusion, sanctions. That most arab nations, african nations cannot even survive under the rule of the gun or nuclear war heads. May be our leaders are considerate that we have seen a tolerant middle east until now. Our reactions are only based on actions of oppression and ethnic cleansing being carried out by israel and its allies.
From Robin to all the viewers, if you really have questioned your goverments, we wouldnt have seen massacres being carried out everywhere in your name or in your people names. Just by mere organizing a donor conference or live8 what have u achieved. You can organize many conference and benefits, to flourish your business interests.
We do not want any charity. Ask any african, that they just want their nations back and their right to excercise universal rights as all other people do. Ask any palestinian, Ask any individual around the globe. I am sorry my friend if it pisses you off, that shows that you are not ready to accept and debate and question your own actions or your own government actions that you have voted for.
Well, first then ask your governments not to create trouble in our countries. You might have elected them, we certainly have not. They should limit their actions with their territories not affecting our lives or sending bombs or biological weapons to murder palestinians or creating viruses to ethnically cleanse the populations by safegaurding the natural resources with an ulterior motive of colonisation
July 25th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Thomas Dane,
May be you havent asked the right questions to your governments or restricted their ethnic cleansing policies. If you leaders play god, we also do the same. I refer to the words of Mr. Blair ” We need to create the conditions… “. Sure your governments have created conditions around the globe that life for indigeneous people is a hell and they do not have equal rights as illustrated in the Universal rights statements.
Truth hurts dane, truth hurts. People of non-european and non-westerners are more accepting and more tolerant and pluralistic than sterotypic americans, british and israeli’s.
We are suffering only because of some f.. head of your government wanted to colonise and break away our lands. These are mere after effects and ripples being seen and shall be seen and remembered through centuries.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Those people are sick.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Israel has to do what what it has to do and they will do what they think is best for them. Its as simple as that. Does it really matter wether they are defending themselves or just plain killing people. The point is there will never be peace in this region. There will always be war. It has been this way for centuries. Its written in the scriptures. I think the best way to end this is for these so called Islamic elements(Hizbullah, Nasrullah, Hamas etc) to bow down in front of Israel and accept their supremacy. Lets face it, right or wrong Israel is powerful. Just take what they give them. They might not get what they deserve in their minds but at least their’ll be peace. But of course this will never happen. Hamas, Hizboo or Iran for that matter dont care about people. They just think jews are bad, lets eliminate them. You cant eliminate them. They have American guns and bombs, man. So just accept what they want and live or die fighting uselessly.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Aiyn,
Booh hooh! Westerners are all corrupt and evil while Muslims are shitting gold. Everybody have to solve my problems, because I am a poor victimized saint! I am tolerant and pluralistic, so when I stereotype Westerners it is only for their own good. Westerners refuse to take out their magic wand and change the world immediately, so they are evil, intolerant, murderers who only deserve evil, intolerance, and murder in return.
Cry me a river! The discussion between you and me stops here, because you are clearly incapable of an intelligent discussion as you are too extremistic to engage in anything else than mud slinging.
Fortunately, there are plenty of people in the Middle East who have made the choice to participate in building bridges so we can meet eye to eye in the middle. Therefore, it is a complete waste of my time to engage in discussions with people like you who have clearly made the choice of digging trenches so nothing will cause your piedestal to crumble and fall.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Thomas
You make me proud to be born a Dane!
Thank you
Aiyn, stop and think about your arguments.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Remeber those pictures that caused a bit of a controversy? The little girls writing ‘good-will’ messages to Nasrallah? Well, Chabad get in line to write, too.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
to Haitham and Mr. B
1. I am not talking about morality of voting for Hamas, just practical implications. The political platform of Hamas is (simplistically) :
a. Fight with corruption
b. Wellfare
c. Denial of the right of Israel to exist.
So if the Palestinians voted for Hamas because of a. and b., aren’t they also responsible in some way for c. ?
The same question goes with the Leabanease people. Aren’t they also responsible in some way for actions (or not taking actions against Hezbollah) of their government on their territory ?
2. Why the Palestinians were disappointed with peace after Israel dismantled the settlements and withdrew its army from Gaza ?
3. The fact that US sponsors the Fatah campain, does not make Fatah “bad”.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
It is sad to note that the word extremism is being branded to one who questions the values of your system. I can also save my energy for the betterment of my people. Yes, it is people like us who engage in dialogue are the bridges between civilizations. It is a pity that you already lost your patience and tolerance that you couldnt answer these fundamental questions.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Someone wrote:
“Israel has to fight this war with Hezbollah to defend its Northern border.”
What a joke. To fight Hezbollah, Israel bombs Beirut, Tyre and Sidon instead. Its crazy, this kind of excuse to support Israel’s terrorism. I support any move to wipe out this racist, illegal and apartheid State off the map of the world.
- MENJ
July 25th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Vadim,
Your double standards are very puzzling to me, so I would like your take on the situation.
Olmert went into the election with a disengagement plan that was clearly not a disengagement to the internationally recognized borders of Israel, so are Israelis who voted for him not responsible for the denial of Palestine’s right to exist?
When your government is the occupying power and it refuses to accept the borders of Palestine is that not the same as refusing to accept Palestine’s right to exist as a sovereign state within its internationally recognized borders?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that Palestinians were disappointed with Israel’s fake withdrawal? Did you expect them to jump with joy over that you dismantle a few illegal settlements in Gaza and then just silently accept the illegal annexation of the rest of the areas within the illegal wall and other illegal settlements in the Westbank?
Both countries may be suffering from the illegal occupation, but who do you think is occupying who?
July 25th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
to MENJ
Israel is fighting Hezbollah on the Lebanease territory to defend its Northern border.
Israel hits Dahya region in Beirut - where the Hezbollah headquarters were
Israel hits Tyre - from where the rockets were launched on Haifa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre#Israel-Hezbollah_War_of_2006
July 25th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
to Tomas a Dane
1. These are two different things - to not recognize borders of a state and to not recognize the right of a state to exist. Israelis recognize the right of the Palestinian state to exist, they do have a dispute with them about the borders. Hamas does not recognize the right of the Israeli state to exist, not matter what are its borders.
There are many countries which have border disputs with other countries, but recognize their right to exist and do not fire rockets on them. See the list of the border disputes in 2003 http://www.bartleby.com/151/fields/131.html. Denmark, Norway and Iceland are among this list. So who is talking about double standards ?
2. I would expect the Palestinians not to attack Israel from the territory, from which it had withdrawn its army and settlements. Is not it a reasonable expectation ?
3. To hand the occupied terriories over to Palestinians and to resolve all the disputs with them, Israel must have a partner to negotiate with. How can you negotiate with somebody who does not recognize your right to exist ?
July 25th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
[...] ng my daily tour on the blogsphare I came across sabbah’s blog who updated us with a new version of die with love series of images… These images have been the [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Some more background on the Chabad in the photos. They are indeed crazy. They have something called “Mitzvah Tanks” which in reality are just buses emblazoned with silly slogans which follow the IOF around. The Israeli military know that they are crazy (and somewhat pathetic) too, but they humour them. I was reading an interview with one of them, Chaim Nevo this morning. He is a “fruitcake” of the first order, who believes that Israel should occupy most of the Middle East, and he believed that the war had started because the government had abandoned this “Greater Israel”.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
The trick is differentiating between the mind’s legitimate reactions to its environment and a lightning-bolt stress-response that fries all the circuits and ends in a shower of tears. I have treaded on thin ice; bitchy conversations in the comments’ sections of other people’s blogs, a sprawling novel, an exhaustive job search, a bank transaction gone wrong, “a shadow and a threat,” a squabbling family far away, all of these things are buzzing behind my eyelids as I
July 25th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
My prayers are with the people of Palestine and Lebanon.
Selam from Bosnia
July 25th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
[...] f this page is : http://www.uruknet.info?p=25013:: The incoming address of this article is : sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/24/die-with-love-ver [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Vadim,
1. Fair enough! There is a difference between the Palestinian government not accepting the right of Israel to exist and the Israeli government no accetpting the internationally recognized border between Israel and Palestine. However, things are not completely black and white, because both sides refuse to recognize more or less the same international laws.
As far as I know (without digging into UNGA and UNSC resolutions), in principle, Israel is recognized as a country (its right to exist) in one UN resolution, but its boundaries (where it has the right to exist) are stipulated in another UN resolution, and there is yet another resolution defining who has the right to live there (for whom does it exist as a home country).
Both the current and previous governments of Israel recognizes that it has a right to exist, but does not recognize its own borders (the pre-1967 borders), and does not recognize a large part of its own citizens (refugees’ righ of return). There is NO international law accepting Israel as a pure ethnic state or that a certain ethnic majority has to be guaranteed!
The current government of Palestine does not recognize Isreal’s right to exist. Israel’s right to exist was actually accepted by the previous governments of Palestine and they insisted that Israel also recognize its own borders and all of its citizens, but that did not get them anywhere!
It is true that there are many border disputes around the world which do contain the elements of rigth to exist or rockets, but if you compare Danish, Norwegian, and Icelandic border disputes with the Israel/Palestine dispute then you are comparing apples to oranges. None of the three countries are under military occupation, under economical occupation, and none of them have entry/exit of persons, goods, or finances controlled by a third party. Close, but no cigar!
2. Reasonable is not really a fitting word for much in a war or an armed conflict, so I will not comment on that - only whether it is understandable or not!
Even with the token withdrawal of military might (which can quickly return) and settlers, Palestine is still under occupation, so I think it is understandable that Palestinians still resist occupation.
Is it understandable that the Danish resistance movement would have refused to lay down its weapons if the Nazis had offered to withdraw from a small corner of Denmark during WWII? If 100% occupation is 100% unreasonable, is there any way that 90% occupation can be 100% reasonable?!?
3. You HAD a negotiation partner who recognized Israel’s right to exist!!!!
Regardless of how rational or irrational their election of Hamas was, can you really blame the Palestinian people for trying something new when everything else have been proven not to work?
If you try to look at it from the side of those that you occupy, how can you negotiate a settlement under international law with somebody who does not recognize international law?
I am not an expert in Palestinian opinions, but my impression is that most of them want the occupation to end by having their rights -laid down by international law- recognized by Israel.
Your government expects Palestinians to give up their rights in an unconditional surrender. Is it understandable that they resist? Is it reasonable or does your military might make it unreasonable?
You are the occupier; you have to take the first step towards a solution that comes closer to an unconditional withdrawal than an undonditional surrender by the ones you violate!
July 25th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Oops, I forgot a not!
It should be:
It is true that there are many border disputes around the world which do –>not
July 25th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
[...] 2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/
and more love
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/24/die-with-love-version-2/ [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
I don’t often find a complete urge to set things straight about my views, but I sure as heck am finding that urge now. I would like to address some statements made here about those of us, including myself, which have been made.
1. “From Robin to all other viewers. My point was to highlight this, how different are you from germans and european facists. The bottom line is everybody has the right to exist, and israel keeps on occupying territories, abducting civilians and putting them in palestinian jails. If you say you have lost patience, so do the arabs. They have lost patience. Why is that israel is immune from all the crimes it has done. And why should we suffer.”
Where did I EVER say that everyone does NOT have the right to exist? On the contrary, I have been participating here for months, and prior to that for years voicing my opinion about the injustices against the Palestinians and Arabs/Muslims. Why am
I as adamant as I am? Because I lived in the East, was married to
a Muslim, am amicably divorced, maintain CLOSE LOVING bonds with my friends and family there AND have a 28-year old daughter from that union who is bi-cultural. For YEARS I have had to fight the bigotry on BOTH sides of the equation in order to raise her to respect and love herself as well as BOTH cultures she shares. On the reverse hand, her father and I, through LOVING her, have had to fight the bigotry in our own cultures. You cannot go telling me in any way shape or form that it does not exist on both sides of the fence because BOTH OF US, her father and I, have had to be in the trenches accepting eachother’s differences and RESPECTING them. We have also had to teach her the politics of why this bigotry exists which boils down to the US overwhelming support of Zionism. Our daughter is one very smart cookie because she has had to endure bigotry on both sides (such as the statement ‘how different are you from Germans and European fascists’) because she has been judged on BOTH sides suspiciously. Not by all, OF COURSE not, but by enough to make her hardened enough to become an ambassador to both. What? She’s half American so she must be fascist. What? She’s half Arab so she must own a camel and be a possible terrorist. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
2. “From Robin to all the viewers, if you really have questioned your goverments, we wouldnt have seen massacres being carried out everywhere in your name or in your people names. Just by mere organizing a donor conference or live8 what have u achieved. You can organize many conference and benefits, to flourish your business interests.” I ask, how can I, one single individual, be held TOTALLY accountable for my country’s deeds when all I do is speak out against them? Let me see, somehow Robin and Thomas and all other Westerners are fully responsible PERSONALLY because they PERSONALLY have not been able to stop their government’s actions. Gee, that sort of sounds like the collective punishment being hurled against Lebanon and the Palestinians currently taking place. I think someone, anyone should REALLY stop and THINK before making such broad statements. So even organizing benefits, giving to charities, doing political advocacy, because our actions have not achieved what those suffering wish them to achieve we are told they’ve done no good and then called fascists ourselves? GIVE ME A BREAK AGAIN. Tonight I am PERSONALLY giving a lecture to a group of senior citizens about Ehren Watada, our first enlisted officer to refuse redeployment to Iraq on grounds that the war there is illegal. He is facing years in prison for his stance. It CERTAINLY is not going to end the war in Iraq, but it WILL give the participants there tonight some vital information about this organizaion, Courage to resist and Thank You Lieutenant. I do NOT have a magic wand nor do I hold a political office, a HIGH political office such as the Presidency or Secretary of State where I could make a significant impact. But the last time I checked, none of us here do. So this continued extremist rant against all Westerners MERELY because they are Westerners is just that, EXTREMIST.
July 25th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
PS to everyone. Could we please get back to the subject of this thread, the pictures above and the topic of Arabs being called “terrorists” while Zionists somehow escape the well earned description. I might add, that my own government, the US is currently AND in the past participated in mass “terrorism” against other peoples in the world, in other words, “terrorism is terrorism” no matter who is perpetrating it. Or at least that’s my opinion.
July 25th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
The UN Resolution were never respected by state of Israel.Why Israel did not implement the Right to Return (UN issued that resolution in 1948 its Nr is 94)and 242 issued in 1967) till now? Why they refused the League of Arab States Appeal which took place in Beirut in 2005 (Prince Abdullah Initiative?)
The right to live does not execlude Palestenian and Lebanese children.
The new Meddle East will only consider the interests of USA and its allies (including many Arab Regimes)
It is amzing how somebody allow himself to reformulate the Human Norms ans Values only according to those which suites their believes, and politics. Democracy, Selfedetermintion, antidescrimination, independence and so on have now new meaning. I am wondering why the vocabulary should be changes according to those who are in power. Are we in a Jungle? Are we animals?
July 25th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Furthermore to clarify: Should legitimate resistance to oppression be called “terrorism”. I say emphatically, NO!! When a people such as the Palestinians have been subjected to YEARS of oppression and occupation that is categorically WRONG!! We are all put here on this earth by ONE creator and must ALL be held accountable for our PERSONAL behavior towards others. We ALL have the duty to speak out against oppression of other people be they Palestinian, Latin American, African, Asian, European, Arab, Indian on and on. These Zionist zealots seen above signing these bombs are engaging in an act AGAINST humanity. NOTHING is ever gained by oppression. Oppression breeds distrust and hatred which is antithetical to our own self-interests and is against the will of our creator. Rather than oppress, we all must LISTEN to the needs of our fellow human beings because in the end, we all have only one earth to share, one life to live and it is up to US to implement our creator’s wish for us ALL to live in harmony. On a side note, I completely respect Hanan’s plea above, “What is important is to how to achieve peace” Every single person placed on this earth has the CHOICE of how to conduct themselves. Rather than signing bombs, we have the CHOICE to reach out to eachother in peace. I fully understand that in the current situation it is next to impossible to do. But as with all situations, I pray to GOD ALMIGHTY that the bloodshed against the Palestinians and the Lebanese cease immediately so that ALL hope of peace is not vanquished from the realm of all possibility. Praying as I do, every single moment for our brothers and sisters in humanity, the Palestinians and the Lebanese people AND those in Israel who wish for their own government to stop the bloodshed. Peace to all.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
[...] ?????? ?t? p????? ?a ?????? t? internet ??t??? ????:?p?????? ?? ???a blogs 25 ???????, 2006 [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
Thomas,
1. You wrote :
“You are the occupier; you have to take the first step towards a solution that comes closer to an unconditional withdrawal than an undonditional surrender by the ones you violate!”
I think Israel had made the first step by signing the Oslo accords and accepting the Palestinian Authority. From this point both Israel and the Palestinian Authority should work together peacefully to define their future borders and to resolve all the disputs. After the signing of the Oslo accords the Noble prizes for peace were granted to Peres, Rabin and Arafat;
Rabin was assasinated because of the peace process, he paid for it with his life.
Israeli people thought that it was time for peace, the “New Middle East”. Some of them had a good time in restaurants in Ramallah and in the casino in Jericho. But Hamas did not accept the Oslo accords and continued suicide bombings. So Israel continued to negotiate with Arafat and to fight with Hamas. Then, the second intifada started in 2000 and the peace dreams were shattered altogether.
The second step was made by the one-sided withdrawal from Gaza. The third one - voting for Kadima, the party which planned to continue withdrawal from the West Bank.
2. There is an expectation in Israel for some “gentlemen’s” behaviour - if you withdraw your army from some territory you are not attacked FROM THE SAME TERRITORY. I think it is rather reasonable expectation, however it is a matter of taste.
3. Although Israel was created to provide a refuge to Jews in light of all the history of their persecution (not only during the Holocaust) because of their religon and ethnicity , it is a multinational bilingual state. There are Jews, Arabs, Druze, Cherkess people, Armenians and others living in it, all of them have equal legal rights. Some Arabs serve in Israeli army.
4. It seems to me that the Palestinian refugees, who fled Israel several weeks after it was created, are not considered Israeli citizens and have no Israeli passports.
I would like to present to you some historical example - after WWII the German population was transfered from the East Prussia, Poland and Chechoslovakia, and nobody today thinks that they will ever return to their place of birth. Would you demand from Russia or Poland or the Chech republic to receive back the displaced German citizens with all their descendants ? Such things just do not happen in this world. No state would allow to a hostile population to return in such big numbers.
5. You wrote : “Regardless of how rational or irrational their election of Hamas was, can you really blame the Palestinian people for trying something new when everything else have been proven not to work?”
I expect from the Palestinian people to tell in some way to the Hamas politicians - “we vote for you because of your wellfare program and your fight with corruption, not because of your denial of the right of Israel to exist. Please do recognize the right of Israel to exist” It is up to the Palestinian people how to do it - demonstrations etc.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
To
The Prime Minister/ President
Lebanon.
The Arab League;
Leaders of Middle East.
This is to bring to your attention that any move to force palestinian and lebaneese people into an permanent cease fire accord between lebaneese state and the palestinian authority with out the consent of the people of the middle east through a referendum, shall be null and void.
With the latest move of israel and its ally U.S to deploy an International Peace keeping force. Is committing our generations to slavery of the west. For the following reasons.
1. The conditions mention return of the sheeba farms to lebanon.
2. return of palestinian and lebaneese civilians abducted and in Israeli Jails.
3. recognition of israel as a state.
4. Disarming Hezbollah.
The situation here is that such an agreement would neutralise hezbollah and this proves that a military strike on IRAN is on the cards. As a strategical analysis by pentagon and mossad. It has been realised earlier that any military strike at iran and syria would involve multiple players in the game such as hezbollah. Thus, CIA and mossad have sketched out a game plan to provoke abduction of the two soldiers by abduction of key palestinian ministers prior to the capture of gilad shalit.
If the arabs sign any binding agreement, this gives them the teeth to have presence in lebanon thus syria is put to task against any cooperation with iran, in the event of military strike at iran.
Iran should prepare immediately for any possible invasion from israel or its allies.
By calling up on a middle east referendom stating a threat to territorial integrity. All the neighbouring countries should go for a broader consensus to disarm Israel nuclear capabilities.
Regional democracy states that in the interest of peace and security of the region. It is mandatory for countries holding nuclear capabilities should comply with regional security conditions of the middle east.
By involving a specific clause stating that israel would disarm its nuclear capabilities as hezbollah and hamas would and recognise democratically elected hamas government.
In the interest of security in the middle east, the democratic movement to disarm israel should serve as vital tool for disarming hezbollah thus ensuring peace through out middle east.
———————————–
I was going through the blog. to the viewers, bush government is on a path to setup an american empire. do not buy any arguements given by american and british media. they are identifying bloggers and tagging them.
Haitham, you are doing excellent job, now you should mobilise people for a referendum to disarm israel and hezbollah simultaneously for a new middle east peace initiative.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
To Thomas a Dane:
Since you didn’t bother to refer to my Norway example, allow me to rub it in a bit further …
In your own country, economic and cultural privileges for Folkekirken are not shared by Muslim or other minority communities.
Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !
What a strange world we live in …
July 25th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
To Thomas a Dane:
Since you didn’t bother to refer to my Norway example, allow me to rub it in a bit further …
In your own country, economic and cultural privileges for Folkekirken are not shared by Muslim or other minority communities.
Please note that in Israel all citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities have the same rights as jews do !
What an unfair world we live in …
July 25th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
From Talmud:
************
* Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
* O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (”Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
* Jews Have Superior Legal Status
Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”
* Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile (”heathen”) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who “marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean…”
* Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (”Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”
* Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (”subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.
* NON-JEWISH CHILDREN are SUB-HUMAN
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
-link
July 25th, 2006 at 10:50 pm
Robin,
When you say:………”Should legitimate resistance to oppression be called ?terrorism?. I say emphatically, NO!! When a people such as the Palestinians have been subjected to YEARS of oppression and occupation that is categorically WRONG!!”
Do you mean:………When a brain-washed fifteen year old Palestinian kid straps a bomb to his chest and blows himself up in the middle of a busy street cafe that it should NOT be called terrorism?
For your sake I hope that is not what you mean. And if it is what you mean…I hope you are young and ignorant for your age…so there is still time for you to learn a thing or two about the world.
Granted these Hezbolah, Hamas, Al Queda, (who cares how to spell any of them anyway?) sh*theads are fighting back against the terrible terrible West the only way they can. They do not have the same tech as their enemies. They fight by killing the children of the enemy. To most that is sick. At least we are targeting the enemy and only accidentally hitting the children. They TARGET THE CHILDREN. Robin…you need to read between the lines in this world. Especially in the United States.
Radical Islam Must DIE.
You know what surprises me? Why don’t the people who say that Islam is a great peaceful religion stand up and say/do something about the radicals in their own house who are giving the religion its bad name. We ridicule and call to attention radical Christians in our country Robin. Why are these Mulims NOT doing the same in their respective nations? Why dammit? Could it be that there is no peaceful Islam? When you really think about it are there ANY peaceful monotheistic religions?
By the way all three monotheistic religions are the BASIS for Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, And Fascism. Now Kneel down slaves and worship your god.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
comment on number 72: the talmud
…and they say muslims hate jews.
in fact, whatever written in the talmud, as stated in comment 72, shows that jews hate any non-jews, period, full stop, correct me if im wrong.
please feel free to say that what is in the talmud is not true
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)
July 25th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
Hey mongo,
if you cross the street from where you live, i think there’s a shop on the corner, i suggest you buy some:
1- manners patches
2- logic pills
3- we are the victims instead anti depressants
4- bullshit suppositories
nothing is by accident. israellis have the technology to know exactly where they are bombing, whereas hezbolla dont (i am not justifying in any way what hezbolla is doing)
take a deep breath……
July 25th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Madman,
I went across the street and got all you said…I feel much better. Thanks for the advise.
I know Israel has the precision weapons. Unfortunately my tax dollars went to supplying them. Maybe Israel does not attack the terrorists with every piece of ordinance. Maybe you are right. Maybe they want to kill muslim innocents every once in a while; you know revenge for the terrorists of Islam who have targeted and killed Israeli innocents for almost thirty steady years.
No I am not siding with Israel. I think they are both stupid for going on like this for so long. But attacking radical Islam’s leaders is not working. One goes down…five more rise up.
What are you trying to say?
July 26th, 2006 at 12:07 am
to Mad with Anger
You wrote : “nothing is by accident. israellis have the technology to know exactly where they are bombing…”
Are you saying that the Israeli army intentionally targets the Lebanease civilians ?
To show you the proportions : in the bombing of Dresden in WWII, the British Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Forces killed more than 25 000 people during three days, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Impact_of_the_attack
The Israeli army started to bomb Hezbollah 14 days ago. Do you see the contradiction ?
July 26th, 2006 at 12:17 am
mongo,
not trying to say anything new, we all know that what’s happening is shit. both sides have lost a lot, it’s not a win win situation. but for the record, it’s not only muslims who live in south lebanon or beirut, there are christians as well, druze and people from other sects. im just saying that im sick and tired in hearing israelis justiying what their country is doing, and how hezbolla still think they can win this war. hezbolla is not lebanon and not all lebanese.
again, what this MADWOMAN is trying to say is that her country has fallen into ruin, she lost her house in the south that her parents spent thousands of dollars to rebuild after the withdrawal in 2000, she also lost 2 relatives. i guess what i had said is justifiable, at least from my perspective.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:24 am
Mongo,
I am neither young (52) nor naive. I have studied this subject for YEARS and been exposed to war in the region (the Lebanese civil war, 1975, six month stint), culture (by marriage and continued experience), current war ( I have several family members in Beirut currently, two of them doctors who have had their own home bombed out by the Israelis and are currently living in HORRIFIC living conditions taking care of the dead and injured as well as each other), bigotry (Christian, Moslem and Jewish), love (Christian, Moslem and Jewish) and fear for my own safety here in this country as well as when traveling.
Continually the subject of “suicide bombers” arises. Do I support such a tactic? Absolutely not. Do I support the so-called legitimate warfare waged upon the Palestinians? No, I absolutely do not. I have not personally been to Palestine but I HAVE visited refugee camps in Lebanon where I witnessed absolutely HORRENDOUS living conditions for those living there. When the topic of “suicide bombers” is raised it is almost always raised in order to discredit the Palestinian cause and their aspirations to their homeland. I am asking every single reader here to imagine, to put yourselves ENTIRELY in the shoes of a Palestinian who is living in fear every single day of their lives from the IOF. Unable to move freely, unable to work freely, unable to obtain the daily existance by ANY stretch of the term we in the West are accustomed to, unable to have any hope other than dieing in the same conditions into which they have been born. I am in NO WAY justifying suicide bombers. I am attempting to ask why they exist? Could it possibly be that when a Palestinian child walks out the door to go to school in the morning there is a very strong chance they might not return home that night? Could it be that their home has been bulldozed because one of their family members, unbeknownst to them has been involved in armed resistance against the occupier? Could it be that a friend or loved one has been held in prison for years without charge or trial. Could it be that their other fellow Arab nations and the Arab League have been either neglectful or impotent in helping them. Could it be that they have gone “over the edge” (something people of ALL cultures done?) Could it be they have learned hate because nothing but hate has been targeted at them by almost the entire world since the day they were conceived?
As for lumping all the various Arab so called “terrorist” organizations into one neat package, I would suggest to all readers to educate themselves as to the differences between the entities because they are NOT all the same. It is a very clever trick both by governments and the media in the West to lump them all into the “war on terrorR