I hate you, my ENEMY!

My duty is not to act blindly and take my brothers’ side when I know that he is wrong. That is an indefensable position. Actually it is similar to the idea expressed as “My country right or wrong”. As george Orwell stated once the above is on the same moral level as saying My mother drunk or sober.

Actually the whole Arab world may support Hezballah, but that is not the case of Lebanese. Even though Al Jazeera wants you to believe that, only Lebanese shias support Hezballah. Sunnis, Druze, and Christians in Lebanon, which together make up some 65 to 70% of Lebanese, do not support Hezballah, nor do they support Israel for that matter.

The reason Arabs outside of Lebanon support Hezballah is because they see in them what they don’t see in their leader, a willingness and the guts to face the Israelis.

Just thought I’d clarify this.

Haithim, this was an uncomfortable but very necessary read.I’ll be recommending it.

I’m in the Bible belt right now, attempting to lovingly confront Evangelicals on their lack of love for Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims; people who they distrust, but are not enemies of. Because of the Torah, they feel an unreal affinity for today’s Israel to the point they don’t see the evil behind Israel’s attacks on Lebanon. Good news is that people are listening.

I want to encourage that you, that Jesus’ command to love your enemies isn’t meant to be done alone, God equips you with the love. But I applaud your honesty, as many Christians’ won’t admit it, and their denial is a choice not to ask for that capacity to love. Would you be willing to ask for it? Blessings in you…

Israel Mom,
I did check out your blog and I do appreciate your attempt at creating dialogue between the different entities. What I do not see there is conversation coming from the parties devastated by your countries policies but rather an attempt by you to explain just how benevolent Zionism is. You state the following, “I am not even sure about a proper definition, but I can tell you what it looks like from the eyes of an average Israeli. Zionism is very mainstream here. Defining yourself as not being a Zionist is the radical thing. Being a Zionist is the norm and goes without saying mostly.

I think what it means for most people, basically, is supporting the idea of a Jewish State, being a home for Jewish people everywhere and being located in Israel. It can be totally secular,though it is also heavily embraced by the more religious factions in the right winged.

Many times, you use it almost in the same way that you use religious arguments. For example, saying that a Jewish person immigrated to Israel (made “Aliya”) not for financial considerations but because of “Zionism”. It almost equals to “love of Israel” for many people……I am not even sure about a proper definition, but I can tell you what it looks like from the eyes of an average Israeli. Zionism is very mainstream here. Defining yourself as not being a Zionist is the radical thing. Being a Zionist is the norm and goes without saying mostly.

I think what it means for most people, basically, is supporting the idea of a Jewish State, being a home for Jewish people everywhere and being located in Israel. It can be totally secular,though it is also heavily embraced by the more religious factions in the right winged.

Many times, you use it almost in the same way that you use religious arguments. For example, saying that a Jewish person immigrated to Israel (made “Aliya”) not for financial considerations but because of “Zionism”. It almost equals to “love of Israel” for many people. Part of the problem lies here. Zionism does differentiate between Jews and non-Jews. In its defence, it’s a differentiation that has been made by non-Jews through the ages, and was the base of many persecutions. However, in Zionism, it is also translated into things like the “Law of Return”, which defines that any Jewish person is welcome into Israel and receives a nice financial and social support to help him integrate. The idea behind it is that every persecuted Jew in the world will have a home where he or she feels welcome. It’s a good law in its intention, but it is very ethno-centric. I would much prefer to see a law that allows for persecuted people to find refuge here, regardless of their religion or ethnic background”
OK let me follow your reasoning here, what you say you want (dialogue) and where you say you got your home from first.
Above you say your family bought their home legally in the 50′s. BINGO!! This was AFTER the declaration of the state of Israel which left the Palestinians with less than 30% of their original lands and AFTER the Nakba http://www.alnakba.org/ and AFTER the massacres which Israel perpetrated such as Deir Yassin and others
which drove the Arabs out of Israel in sheer terror. So, you bought your home “legally” in the 1950′s. HMMMM, your so-called legal deed is DRENCHED IN BLOOD!!
You want to compromise? Please explain. You say NOTHING of the occupation which your country is continuing after MANY UN sanctions against it. You do not mention the fact that the Palestinians DO recognize the state of Israel (except for a very few radicals who your country continues to point to as the reasons for their brutlaity TOTALLY ignoring the voices of the MANY who your country continues to occupy) I’m glad your family “started out in proper refugee camps”. And I’m also very glad :) they didn’t have to stay there for FIFTY-EIGHT YEARS!! Your denial of the truth and reality TRULY amazes me.

Haitham,
Thank you for that wonderful essay. I wish everyone in the West could read it so they might understand the Middle East a little better.

I do however think you are too kind to Zionists when you say “they just don’t get it.” The occupation, as I think you know perfectly well, is all about power, not a failure of understanding. Zionists have always known perfectly well that what they coveted was not “a land without a people,” and that they would have to act very badly to take it, just as today’s aliyah-ists know perfectly well they are taking something which is not theirs. The sad truth is that this is something they have always been perfectly prepared to do.

Between Haitham and the Israeli Mom there’s an obvious point of mediation and agreement that can be reached. This is true if, and only if, as Haitham says, crude, aggressive leaders like Sharon and Rabin stop being elected.

Hisham K.

BTW, there’s a good essay in Al-Ahram on the relationship of Hezbollah to Arab resistance:

A STATE LIKE NO OTHER
Hassan Nafaa
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/807/op2.htm

“The declared aim of the war is to enable the Lebanese state to impose its sovereignty over its entire national soil. The real aim of the war is to eradicate the culture of resistance from the mind of Arab nations, just as it has been eradicated from the mind of Arab governments. This is why the war seemed to pit Israel and those who back it (including Arab regimes) against the Arab nations who stood from coast to coast behind Hizbullah, their newly found symbol of resistance.”

Just as the IDF tried (and failed) to eradicate the spirit of resistance, Zionists like Israeli Mom are desperately trying to do the same. They’re not going to stop.

Michael,
From Ynet, dated August 1,2006 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284752,00.html

Profile: State of Israel
Official name State of Israel
GPI 22,145 square km
Population 6,116,533
Population growth rate 1.39 percent
Demographics – Ethnicity Jewish 80.1 percent (32.1 percent born in Europe/North America, 20.8 percent born in Israel, 14.6 percent born in Africa, 12.6 percent born in Asia). Non-Jewish (primarily Arab) 19.9 percent
Demographics – Religion Jewish 79 percent, Muslim 17.3 percent, Christian 2.1 percent, Druze 1.6 percent

So let’s see, according to your esteemed newspaper, only 20.8% of your population is born in Israel. Perhaps you are right with your figure of 65-69% and they are wrong. I’d be getting out a letter to YNET and busting some knuckles over there if I were you!
Because according to them a full 59.3 percent were born elsewhere.
Care to try again? :)

As for your other statement about most of the people living most of their lives there, well, apparntly you are having a hard time understanding what I wrote above or you are ignoring it which is this: ISRAEL WAS CREATED ON THE BLOOD OF THE PALESTINIANS FORCED FROM THEIR LANDS!!! This land was NOT empty before this mass-immigration of Jews took place, it was populated by mostly ARABS!! There is NO way you can deny this and your obfiscations of the facts go nowhere. Where is the conscience of ANY person who moves somewhere which has been created out of religious, political WHATEVER reasons to the total displacement of another population? WHERE IS THE CONSCIENCE of the Zionist?!!

Secondly, Israel IS a state and no one is arguing that fact but to think that the suffering caused is just going to go poof ESPECIALLY when you have occupied their remaining territories for 39 years is either very wishful thinking OR complete dismissal of the Palestinians right to the same thing you claim, the right to a homeland. So, the bottom line of Zionism is that “God” gave this land to the Jews (Zionists because true Torah Jews do NOT feel this way) and all others be damned. Go ahead Michael and all others like you and try your best to bend the facts but they cannot be bent anymore. Your country’s latest venture has utterly failed. You have not nor ever can wipe out the history the Zionists have created and at the very best it is THEIR time to admit their mistakes and make PEACE by withdrawing to their borders, stop the choking of the Palestinians with their policies and STOP creating more trouble for themselves and others. Israel IF it gets it’s act together just might have a chance of gaining peace with it’s neighbors, but any more actions like this latest one is ONLY going to solidify the Arab BROTHERS who DO wish to make peace with their “cousins”.

If Michael tries saying that only Jews living in Israel are “Israel Jews” this is CLEARLY a slate of hand trick. The information given above from Ynet refers to ISRAELIS which ARE Israeli citizens, whether duel or not, living wherever they live, are STILL Israeli by nationality solely due to Israels Law of Return which gives the following as qualification for citizenship under this law:
“Those who are eligible for the Law of Return are immediately granted citizenship. The controversy arises whether all should be given Jewish status as citizens. Jewish status is granted according to the traditional definition of being Jewish– if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish as well (conversions to Judaism can also occur). Originally, the Law did not specify who qualified for being Jewish. The 1970 amendment, however, said “The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law…are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew” (Law of Return).”

I found this very interesting article concerning the population balance between Jews and Arabs in Israel. “Demographic Issue Not as Pressing as Israel Thinks”
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200602%5CFOR20060203

“Palestinians have previously warned Israel that if it won’t work toward a two-state solution, the Palestinians would press for one state — a scenario in which the Muslim population would outnumber the Jewish population, thus erasing Israel’s Jewish identity.

Now a California-based researcher says he has “good news” for Israel. Bennett Zimmerman recently led an eight-man team of Americans and Israelis in an examination of the Arab population in the West Bank and Gaza.

Zimmerman found there are at least one million fewer Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip than the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) says there are; and the Palestinian population is not growing as fast as previous statistics have shown.

So, Zimmerman’s “Good News” is that the Israeli still have a while before they need to start pursuing peace because there are fewer Palestinians than previously thought. Excuse my language but,
UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE!!!

From the CIA Factbook re birthplace of Israelis:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Regarding Jewish “refugees”:

“Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: ‘We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations.’”

“Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: ‘I don’t regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.’”

“Ran Cohen stated emphatically: ‘I have this to say: I am not a refugee.’ He added: ‘I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee.’”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=329736

Dr. Salman Abu Sitta has some good advice for those Zionist Jews who seek peace with Palestinians; he was speaking to Gershon Baskin, who advocated that Palestinians forget about returning home.

Gershon said: “Anyone who understands anything about Israel and Israelis must realize that there will be no return to Israel proper.”

And Abu Sitta replied: “In simpler words, Israel wants to continue its ethnic cleansing, pursue its racist and Apartheid policies, and does not ‘really want to live in peace’ with the Palestinians but instead of them.

“The Palestinians, and most of the world with them, are determined to pursue justice, eradicate racism and Apartheid. Just as South Africa did. They have no intention of disappearing.

“Baskin, true ‘friendship’ should go to the Israelis to help shake them off their collective amnesia about what they have done and are doing to the Palestinians and to advise them that their salvation lies in shedding racism fully and forever. They have to amend their ways, reverse ethnic cleansing and make reparations.

“For it is clear that the history of Jews will ultimately be marked indelibly, and above all other historical events, by what they have done in Palestine.”

Michael & Israeli Mom,

Stop playing the victim. It is time you recognize what anybody with just a little bit of common sense clearly sees:

Your ‘enemies’ do not hate you for WHO you are, they hate you for WHAT you are; supporters of a fascist ideology implemented by a fascist government in a country dominated by fascists of which they happen to be to be the targets – or victims, actually!

Both of you are liars, because you have been raised on lies in a country built on lies. I am not personally targeted by the fascist actions of your country, but if I was Palestinian then I surely would not want to sit down at a table to negotiate peace with you if you brought you lies with you as the basis for negotiation.

Unless you start being honest to yourself and to everybody else then you cannot expect to live in peace with your victims.

Unless you honestly accept the facts that you are ilegally violating the territorial integrity of your victims beyond the internationally recognized borders of your country, that you are ilegally occupying the internationally recognized territory of Palestine, that you are ilegally interfering with their national economy and right to govern themselves, that a number of them have a legal right to return as Israeli citzens to Israeli territory where you have illegally built your houses on top of the ruins of theirs, and that the only legal way they can be asked to give up the claim to live inside the borders of Israel is if you offer them a reasonable compensation that they are free to accept at own will – land, money, women, you decide what to offer, they decide what to accept!

If the German Nazis had offered the Danish Resistance Movement or any other Dane to retreat from 75% of occupied Denmark if all Danes surrendered their weapons, then they would have answered: “Are you kidding? Never in a million years!”

Maybe you should start wondering why you are getting the same kind of response from your neighbors when you bring your colorful lies to the negotiating table!

First of all thomas im not israeli and how do you know that israeli mom has built her home illegally actually as salman abut sitta points out most jews in israel live in the same part of the country that was owned by jews in 1948 so surely you would not disagree with abu sitta citties like telaviv netnaya hadera and so on were all there before 48

Robin, good work tracking down the facts. BTW, I found this little gem in your article on the Zimmerman “study” of the Palestinian population–

“Although none of those on the project’s team are professional demographers, the project won praise from one of America’s leading demographers, Dr. Nicholas Eberstadt of the American Enterprise Institute.”

American readers familiar with Eberstadt and the AEI will get a chuckle out of it.

(Have a nice vacation.)

Sabbah, what happend when two of your brothers are fighting(like what will happend in lebanon) – who are you with ?

Oh robin you keep on holding this fantasy about them all being immigrants where have all the immigrnats come from the only mass immigrantion to israel in the last thirty years have been from the soviet union and ethiopa and for only 20 per cent to be israeli born that would mean there would have been four million immigrnts and even the great salman abu sitta has said that 78 per cent of jews live on land that jews owned in 1948 so you cant say 78 per cent are living on stolen land.

I feel that the message for this blog is us against them. Arab v. Jew, Muslim v. Israeli. I know that everyone must defend one’s land, but I find it hard to believe that talking is dead. Though people talk for many years without avail, it only takes that one perfect moment to help peace be realized. Yes, violence and armed resistance has its place but both sides should always talk. Everyone knows that. If you don’t agree look at the areas if the last 20th century that actually had peaceful transitions to democracy and most are success stories. The only other success stories are those that used armed resistance while keeping the lines of communication open with their enemies. That is the current problem with Pres. Bush, no direct talk with enemies. Same can be said for most of the Arab region in regards to Israel and Israel in regards to Palesetine.
You don’t talk with your enemey you become militant and violence obsessed. You may say no problem, this will help us be victorious over __(enter new enemey)__. This may be true but what happens when you win. When people are only fighters and ony deal in violence, they lose all other skills. It is a very short jump from resistance fighter to thug. I have seen it happen.
Also, don’t tell me violence alone is the only way because it has been forced on you. That is a cop out. Sure, violence is forced upon you by your enemies sometimes but not all the time. Most people that punch each other eventually get tired if no one is a clear winner, within those moments of rest talking usually helps. Please, just talk. Even if it seems pointless, even if you are fighting, talking helps create lasting peace.
I think the idea that one side will just overpopulate the other is stupid. It may work but are you just going to fight till that happens? What a waste of energy and time. Even when it does work, will a fading minority go quietly into the night? Hell no. They will go kicking and screaming, so more fun violence.
Don’t ever think you will one day push the Jews into the sea or drive the Arabs from your land. It won’t happen. It doesn’t help by complaining about who starts a fight. Once peace comes, you can criticize and write all the history books you want. Rehasing who did what and then who did what and then who did what is a lot of time spent going over the past and not looking foward.
This is an intractable conflict. Jews will not leave and more generations will be born on Israeli soil. Arabs will not leave and more generations will be born on Palestinian soil. Start talking and sort out whose soil it is later. I don’t believe peace will just come and violence will be gone. This is stupid. People are violent so whenever there is people there will be violence. A gross reduction in that violence though is possible. That to me is a much better state of affairs than whole scale slaughter.
All I am saying is talk, I know it is hard. I know. If your leaders won’t talk then you start first. This is hard, very hard, but must be done. Intermingle. Much harder. One day hopefully maybe even date. (I know, I know very far off, but let me tell you, there is some damn fine Arab and Jewish ladies out there just ripe for the picking. This also goes for those stud muffins on both sides too.)
And before you go and attack my opinion telling me I don’t know what the hell I am talking about. I grew up in Northern Ireland, another intractable conflict. The history there is deep as it is Israel/Palestine. One type of person moved in, conflict ensued, and now shaky peace. Not perfect peace, a couple months ago a Catholic teenage boy was chased by a gang of Proteseant youths and beaten to death with baseball bats. The following nights brought three burned out houses. Not perfect peace by a long shot, but it is a damn sight better than car bombs.
Lots of love,
Sean

Haitham,
You have spoken what is on my mind and in my heart. What I saw from Israel’s attacks on Lebanon was not self defence. What I saw was blind hatred. I have always considered myself moderate and liberal. I was all for peace with Israel, and rebuilding our countries so we can all have a good life. I did not realise just how much Israel hates us and is willing to destroy us. Israel is our enemy. And like you, I hate my enemy.

Marhaba and Aloha everyone (aren’t laptops a great invention)
Look everyone reading and participating here, we can all sit here and argue the facts til we’re blue in the face regarding the situation concerning the founding of the state if Israel, but in reality, only a few facts are necessary to understand what is behind the continued resistance of the Palestinians and their Arab brothers.
Fact: When Israel was created, less than 30% of the land was left for the Palestinians. Of this remaining land, it was absorbed by Jordan, Syria and Egypt leaving behind no Palestinian state.
Fact: Almost one million Palestinians were refugees who fled what were formerly their homes in Israel due to mass panic created
during the founding of the state.
Fact: Israel has continued to occupy Gaza (no I do not call their unilateral pullout a cease to the occupation when all sea, land, air, movement, trade etc. are still being controlled by Israel) the West Bank, the Golan, Shebaa Farms etc.
Fact: Israel has aspirations to a greater Israel, Eretz Israel, and even those who say they do not continue to occupy and hold on to lands in violation of numerous UN sanctions.
Fact: Israel has continually chosen to wage war on it’s neighbors, witness Lebanon, rather than seek peace.
Fact: Israel depends on immigration under the Law of Return to keep their population predominately Jewish so as to outnumber the Palestinians.

OK, there are more facts we could all discuss but that is not the point of this thread I don’t believe. The point is that recently Israel has CHOSEN to attack it’s neighbors in diabolical strenghth in order to exert it’s strenthgh militarily, killing more than one thousand, destroying homes and infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza all for what? They say in order to wipe out “terrorism” against them when in truth it is resistance to the terroristic acts of Israel itself. What does anyone think that the receivers of this brutality and their Arab “brothers” reaction is going to be? Do they honestly think they can keep doing the same thing and gain anything more than more war? Do they honestly think that God gave them the right to keep doing this? I am truly perplexed by this type of thinking. If Haitham and others like him had been “moderate” and going along hoping for a peaceful resolution to the last 58 years this recent atrocity by Israel is enough to shake ANYONE’S prior hopes. I’m just going to put it in personal terms. If I had made friends with people who had moved into a land which my RECENT forefathers had been forced from because those squatters felt that God gave them this land and be damned with all others, I would be PISSED!
In the physical realm, as well as in the emotional realm, for every action there is a reaction. The issue is now and always will be Palestine (see link for excellent documentary) It is time for Israel and all individual Israel’citizens to recognize this, address the issue in a peaceful manner, and most importantly, accept the fact that their “cousins”, the Palestinians and Arabs are also the sons and daughters of the same creator with the same rights to their aspirations of a homeland.

You are a bit of a nitwit Robin. I don’t understand how you can say what you are saying are the “essential faccts” and nothing else matters. I find it great that you tell Israeli citizens they need to recognize this. I love a good command; it makes me want to jump to and do it. Yes, sir. It works great for the Israelis when they tell Palestinians what to do, don’t it?
Recent atrocities happen every day. If you don’t believe me turn on the news. Somehow people are able to get over the atrocities and build and work together, no matter if it is strainded relations at best. People should just agree on the smallest thing and work from there.
Example:
Ethnicity 1: You have killed my people and this is my land.
Ethnicity 2: You have killed my people and this is my land.
Ethnicity 1: The only answer is your death.
Ethnicity 2: The only answer is your death.
Ethnicity 1: We both will not leave until the last breath goes from my body.
Ethnicity 2: Ditto.
There you go. Not so hard. One simply realization and then build upon it. Suddenly you keep talking and you get to certain points and compromises get made. This is how this sort of things happen. Read a book about N. Ireland, S. Africa, or the end of the Bosnian war.
And don’t tell me these places aren’t perfect, I already know that. But they have had recent violent pasts and are dealing with it. It is hard and does not always work, but I would rather try then give up.
And finally, you say that if my “RECENT forefathers” were kicked off the land I would understand. I suppose you are right, the sting of seeing people who take your world from you lessens over time, the more trampled a people the more subdued. If you couldn’t get your land right away then maybe you don’t deserve it. (See Native Americans, Irish, Basque, Kurds, Tibetians, Sikhs, etc.) This might be not what you mean Robin, but this is what I am hearing. And I suppose your right, just ask me how much I love Marching season. It is a ball. I would be lying to tell you I didn’t want to bash the heads in of those Oarnge bastards who rub it in my nose that we have been conquered for 100′s of years, but if I did that I would just be making them happy and not going on with my life. So, Robin, my dear, before opening ones mouth one should always watch not to insert foot.
Love,
Sean
;-)

If we don’t respect property rights of each other then no one’s property is safe. But I respect property rights of others only as long as I have rights to own a property myself. If you tell me that I can have none, no matter how hard I work, but I shouldn’t touch what others say belongs to them, sorry, this law doesn’t work for me.
When you look on the map, Israel is a tiny dot surrounded by huge Arab countries rich with oil and anything you wish. Jews don’t have any other country, but even this tiny dot they have to share with large Arab minority.
I understand that many Palestinians have a valid claim to the same land. But is eliminating Israel (as a Jewish state at least) the only way to restore Palestinians rights? Don’t forget that Jews are not like one big family. There are European Jews, Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Moroccan Jews, etc. All speak different languages, used to different food, belong to different religious branches while many are atheists. They are of different races and come from different climates. When they immigrate, they sacrifice a lot just to live with dignity in the country they can call their own. This is what people are ready to die for, not just for “pleasure” of oppressing Palestinians. If displaced Palestinians make much smaller sacrifice and settle in other Arab countries where many already live, among their brothers who speak the same language, have the same religion and eat the same food, the conflict will be over. I don’t see anything impossible, shameful or humiliating in it. Many Jews were actually expelled from Arab countries, started new life in Israel and are happy.
It is normal that Palestinians would rather live in Palestine. But when “enemy” has nowhere to go, counting your blessings is better than fighting to the bitter end.

Andrew most jews do live in the same area as 1948 track down salman abut sittas paper even he says so.The other major towns in areas built after 1948 in the negev for example were built on nothing but desert like arad dimona eilat ofakim and ashdod and ashquelon were built on differnt sites to the palestinian towns anyway whats your plan evict the jews who live outside the costal area and make more refugees

Robin most israelis dont want them to return because they are smart they know the country would become a conservative islamist society impossible for any liberal secular person to live in.Not only jews but druze and some secular arab citzens feel the same way.

Michael,

You seem to forget that Robin (unlike “nitwit” Sean) actually knows the Middle East very well, hence she knows that your vision of hordes of intolerant, “fundamentalist” Palestinian refugees is a cynical lie. I know Palestinians too, and all of them in my experience, whether Christian or Muslim have been generally “secular”, “liberal” and frankly lacking the arrogance and intolerance that characterizes many Israelis.

As for your figures, Andrew (above) is correct. If most of the post 1948 land is still uninhabited, then what is the problem with letting the refugees return?

Haitham is right, it is impossible to talk about “peace” with someone is stamping their boot on your head!

A note from history to all “westerners” who criticize Lebanese and Palestinians who ally themselves with Hizb’Allah, or Hamas for that matter. In the second world war, the allied forces were in a fight for survival with one of the greatest monsters of the twentieth century, Adolf Hitler. So what did they do? … they allied themselves with Josef Stalin, who by all accounts was the biggest monster of them all! Josef Stalin was a paranoid sociopath who murdered around 30 million people in his career of slaughter, yet he was THE crucial ally of the UK, the US and the other allied forces. The Germans weren’t crushed in western Europe, north Africa, and certainly not in the US. They were defeated on the Russian front by Stalin’s top soldier, Field Marshal Georgi Zhukhov. Therefore, it is rank hypocrisy for these nations to criticise other people who are fighting for their own survival when they ally themselves with organisations who by comparison are Kindergarten teachers.

Incidentally Haitham, Hizb’Allah is a proscribed “terrorist” organisation in Israel and the US, but NOT in the European Union.

Paul,
Actually I chose to ignore Michael’s provocation because it was so absurd that I tend to believe people would recognize this, but in fact, for those unknowing who have been raised on media propaganda, they would latch on to his statement as fact. It is a well known fact that Israel has secretly funded Hamas(an Islamist entity) because it needs to continue it’s claim to victim-hood. Whatever the Palestinian people chose in their elections is ENTIRELY up to them. Has anyone ever heard the expression, “be careful what you wish for”? Well, the cover of this book does NOT tell the entire story.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0127-34.htm
“Israel Could Benefit from a Hamas Victory”
“There’s plenty of public celebrating in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as Hamas relishes its victory. But I suspect that there’s plenty of quiet, discrete celebrating going on in Israel, too. Certainly Bibi Netanyahu and his Likud followers must be delighted. The Hamas victory will give them fresh grist for their right-wing, hard-line mill and probably plenty of votes in the upcoming Israeli election.

Even some Israelis who won’t vote for Likud may be taking a quiet “I told you so” satisfaction. A sizeable portion of Israeli Jews are convinced that “the Palestinians” (as if several million people were all one person) really want to destroy the state of Israel. That deep-seated fear, more than anything else, keeps the Israeli public supporting harsh repressive policies in the Occupied Territories.”

(readers please read the entire article because it goes on to say much more)

Israel has a vested interest in continuing it’s claim to victimhood simply because it diverts the observer’s attention away from their policies. Israel is NOT a pluralistic society open to all, that is obvious.

On another note, in continuing my own attempt at understanding how I would feel in a parallel situation I also know this, if after the war that took my land away, the new government invited people from around the world of their religion to flock to their new country stolen from my people, offered them great incentive to come http://www.moia.gov.il/english/index_en.asp
was backed financially from the richest nation on earth, the US, with Zionist backers abundant, I would hate every last person who ignored the fact that my land was stolen from my people in order to create a “homeland” for them and then chose to live in MY LAND that I can no longer call my own. I suggest that this is what the “they just don’t get it” could in part mean. There they sit happily in their Zionist state, puffing up their feathers like peacocks prancing all the while not EVEN recognizing the fact that others had to suffer for their so called dream to come true.
How can ANYONE be proud of ANY accomplishment when it comes at the GREAT suffering of another people? For all you Israelis out there reading, did it EVER occur to you that you are dancing on the tears created by your attrocities?

Michael,

Not in the same, hateful world as you thankfully! I have heard this smear tactic several times before, and it is very boring now. One example was when the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs published a so called “report” about religious persecution of Christians in Palestine. This again was supposed to infer that Palestinian muslims were a bunch of illiberal, religiously intolerant maniacs. Christians in Palestine were furious about it, and one of their representatives, Salim J. Munayer, was forced to issue a repudiation of it.
However in supposedly “liberal”, “secular” Israel it is a different story. … some quotes from the above link:

“The results showed a particularly weak identification by the Jewish majority with the values of pluralism, with 53 per cent believing Arabs should be denied equal rights and slightly more, 57 per cent, wanting Arabs transferred out of the country. Only 77 per cent of respondents thought democracy was the best system of governance.” …

“Despite the diplomatic language required of a UN body, the report concludes that it is “deeply concerned by the continuing differences in treatment between Jews and non-Jews” and notes that Israeli law “does not enshrine the general principles of equality and non-discrimination”. It lists many aspects of Israeli life in which the rights of Palestinians and the country’s one million Arab citizens are being violated in favour of the Jewish population.” …

“Although it is critical of Israel’s performance on a whole raft of human rights tests, including policies towards women and foreign workers, it reserves its harshest rebukes for the treatment of Palestinians and the country’s Arab population.” …

“It notes — despite claims to the contrary made by the Israeli delegation — that a precedent- setting Supreme Court judgement allowing one family, the Kaadans, to move into a Jewish community has still to be enforced three years later.” There is much more.

This is hardly “liberal” and any country which is predicated on religious discrimination cannot be described as “secular”. Sorry Michael, but if that is your idea of a “liberal”, “secular” society, then I would much rather live under an illiberal, religious maniac like Mahmood Abbas (sarcasm intended!-)

To Jay,
So, you say the lands should be divided. What a wonderful harmonious way to look at things :( The problem in saying that the Jews have a claim to this land from thousands of years ago is manyfold. First off, what happens to everyone else who is living in this land? They are just supposed to accept this as a given fact and go away? How harmonious is it to say “This is OUR land” and then make everyone else leave. Gee, for some reason that just sounds selfish, mean-spirited, and superioristic to me. How it can be OK with anyone to endorse such an idea coming from any viewpoint is absolutely amazing to me. The land of Palestine has been fought over for thousands of years but the solution is PEACE and unification, NOT division. It is Jews from all over the world who have been settled in Israel who do NOT have a claim to this land because they are converted to Judaism AFTER the Jews ruled Palestine who are the source of the problem. Prior to the founding of the State of Israel these three great religions lived side by side in recognition of each other. Now it’s DIVISION that is the solution. I think not. Allow the Palestinians the same right of return to their land which is granted to Jews who NEVER laid claim and THEN you have a solution. Nations worldwide are condemned for human rights violations because they do not treat ALL of their citizens humanely yet people turn a blind eye to a state which forced a large portion of its’ native population to flee in order to establish an exclusive state. Amazing, absolutely amazing in it’s inhumanity. As for protesting by civil means, why not say Israel occupied the lands and further occupied more lands since 1967 by terroristic means? I’m sorry, but I find your statement wholly unsubstantiated. No one wants more violence, least of all those who were violently driven from their homeland. Think about it.