Watching the Zionist propaganda; I received from them today an alert from the Zionist group (Giyus) to vote "Yes" in a poll by BBC History Magazine that asks "Do you think holocaust denial should be made illegal in Britain?" Of course I voted "NO". This is why:
Holocaust denial views only have as much substance as you allow them. There are people who think that the world is flat; God does not exist; the Sun goes around the Earth, etc... Aren't these more fundamental things than the Holocaust? Maybe, maybe not. But why one can speak about all these but not denial of the Holocaust? If people like David Irving and others are crazy or evil then why not make the answers to their allegations widely available and allow people to reach their own conclusions? Why does opponents to Holocaust denial feel so compelled to lock people and criminalize anyone who denies the Holocaust as its presented by Zionist, if they know that they can destroy all their arguments with simple facts? I don't understand why nothing should ever be taboo from debate in a democratic country?! Anything and everything should be open to debate; isn't this what democracy is teaching us? Why don't you leave it for people and time to see how many 'facts' can be confirmed as a myth as usually happens throughout history?
On the one hand, is it the role of any state to set out what are facts and what is open to debate? How they arrive at the number of six million? Is it a state secret? Is it a God’s word? Is it a myth? Must it be public and open to challenge or not? If not, why? Why God existence can be challenged, but not the Holocaust? The principle of free speech rests on the notion that, through open public debate, rational people are most likely to arrive at the truth. However, protection of citizens comes before freedom of speech in a democracy; we understand that, but do denying the Holocaust in public debate, endanger their minorities? I guess not. Otherwise, why don't they consider same when they accuse Muslims of being terrorist? Don't they endanger Muslims minorities? I guess they did. Or it's ok if they are Muslims to screw them upside down but wrong if they are Zionists to question anything they claim?
Everybody has the right to their own opinion, even if they're wrong. This was one of the great gifts from Brits to Americans. It is sad now to see Brits and other democracies; willing to put an "except" on the right to speak freely. Once you start limiting speech in any way you open the door to future speech limiters.
I agree that free speech is a right that should be vigorously defended up to the point at which it becomes offensive to a large number of people or encourages others to indulge in inappropriate behavior. However, even in democratic society, if the debate is questioning any possibility that the Holocaust never happened; if the nature of the event were not so horrific and so devastating; one has the right to question the facts, for it might be acceptable and I don't see why such a debate encourage others in inappropriate behaviors that might endanger anyone. In other words, if what Zionists are claiming is true, then what they are afraid of? Proved liars?
Yes, everyone does have the right to free speech, no matter how abhorrent others may find them. That is, after all, the beauty of living in a democratic society. You can't do much other than pity those who don't realize that they're making complete idiots of themselves, in this case the Zionists who are trying to hide the truth and limiting freedom of speech to anything but Holocaust.
The fact that these and similar ranting throughout the world are used by Zionists as justification for dehumanizing victims they killed. By allowing racist speech like Zionist propaganda, you are making it easier for Zionists to enforce ignoring the human casualties resulting from their crimes like those toke place in Lebanon and Palestine. Zionists see no other victims but theirs and no one should ever question or doubt that.
Last but not least, I do not doubt the crimes against Jews (although I doubt the numbers), but what about all other millions killed in the same war by the Nazi? Why does it matter to doubt the Jewish causalities and criminalize doing that while ignoring all others?
I would like to remind you that the Slavic populations of Poles, Russians, Cossacks, Croats, Armenians, Ukrainians, and others have suffered the LARGEST causalities during WWII. Compared to the overall number of their population they lost the largest number of people in comparison to all other nations. And I would like to remind you that they have fallen FIGHTING the Nazis and that the civilian population on occupied territories was punished because of that by massacres and transport to CONCENTRATION CAMPS; not only Jews.
Anyway, don't forget to vote, "NO."
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The Germans did not have problems with the Armeians i think if you read your history boks you will find that was the turks and the armenians are not slavs large numbers of them did not die during WWII it was during WWI and they were killed by muslim turks and kurds and i afriad you are wrong again about the croats during WWII they were facists they welcomed the germans have you never heard of the Ustase regime they were croat facists who killed large number of serbs about 300000 but some say it could have been as high as 700000 and the expelled about 250000.Maybe you should read up on world war two before you start writing on it because it seems you dont know too much about it
Thanks for the correction, Michael, but that does not change the facts!
If you are using Firefox as a browser and go vote on this question, use your back arrow and vote several times. If each and everyone who visit this sites clicks 10 or 20 votes, we would be able to surpass the yes votes…
Just an FYI
But you should know your facts well people wont take you seriously if you make very simple mistakes that most people with only a passing intrest in WWII history would know.One other fact russian ukranians poles and other slavs were never targeted for extermination only jews gays and gypsies of course that didnt stop over two million ethnic polish civillians from being killed .By the way i agree with you denial should not be a crime in fact quite a few liberal zionists like me believe the same thing.Have a nice night hope you do some reading
Haitham, although I usually agree with allot of what you say, I thin that you are some what off the mar on this issue, first of all it is irrelevant whether the Nazis killed 6, 5 or 4 million Jews the FACTS are, that the Nazis did persecute Jews and others on a massive scale. And although I agree that freedom of speech should be protected including the questioning of the facts of WWII.
You have said that “I agree that free speech is a right that should be vigorously defended up to the point at which it becomes offensive to a large number of people or encourages others to indulge in inappropriate behavior.”
Do you not then thin that denying the holocaust would and is offensive to a large number of people?
And let me remind you that is I or anyone else openly questions the legitimacy of the Koran, I would most likely attract a death sentence imposed by the Muslim clerics all over the Arab world, just as Salamen Rashdi had and continues to endure only because he
Expressed his opinions regarding Islam. And lets not forget what happened after a Dane published some cartoons of the prophet.
I thin instead of fighting or arguing for the right to deny the holocaust because you do not agree with the numbers why not instead embrace the idea that we should never as humans ever allow another event like this to ever happen again no matter how many people actually died, lets try to band together to fight racism where ever it is.
I will tell you why it matters. World War Two was the biggest conflict in history that had over 60 million casualties. the 5 or so million of Jews who died mainly in Germany in Poland were specifically targeted as part of a well established Nazi policy to exterminate them. The holocaust also includes about 2 to 3 million of non-jews who were also targetted for being gay, gypsy, communists and slavs. there’s a reason why they called them concentration camps.
that being said, denying it is denying a historical event. questioning the numbers is different. the former is derived from ignorance the latter from reasonable historical assumptions as all the numbers from this war are questionable. they could be less or they could be more. it doesn’t matter either way in my opinion, the fact that a group of people were targeted because of their religion, creed or race is a low point in human history.
No race should ever target another due to some zelous ideology that claims that God has made them the superior race.
That being said there are many who deny there is such a thing as Palestinian refugees. The arguement is that they just decided to get up and leave their towns and homes one day and the Zionists generously took them over..you know…to look after them. Along the same lines there is a denial of the many massacres that happened in that year alone such as deir yassin and up to recently with jenin and everything that happened between.
I don’t think people who agree with these historical denials should go to jail…if we are looking for legal measures then maybe they should be court ordered to wear a dunce cap.
Denial of the holocaust should not be a crime. Why?
Sure, the holocaust was a terrible thing. But, until the US repent for Hiroshima, the British for their almost wiping off the face of the earth of many indigeneous peoples and so on, why should the holocaust be singled out as exceptional. That’s an insult to a whole lot of Japanese, native Americans, Aborigines, Maoris, Irish, Africans, India Indians, and so on .. All these things are bad but the British and Americans are exempt all the time! Bush and Blair are as bad as Hitler.
Salman Rushdie did speak out against Islam and wrongly called what is a great religion “Satanic Verses”. However, the Fatwa declared on him was not really implemented for that reason. The 1988 Iranian regime conveniently used this as an excuse: the real reason the 1988 Iranian regime did not like Rushdie was because Rushdie supported the 1921-1978 Pahlavi regime (The Pahlavi Shahs) and had been friendly with the Shah. In typical Saddam fashion, the opportunists in Iran saw a fatwa against Rushdie as a way to:
1. Silence a monarchy supporter who had influence (the same reason is behind the banning of sattelite dishes in Tehran).
2. To make Iran the superpower in the Islamic world (the same reason is also behind the current anti-Israel rhetoric).
Some pious peasant in Afghanistan loved Ayatollah Khomeini for signing it into law. Most Iranian professionals saw it as yet another example of what it was – a political trick: Khomeini, an educated man, knew how to be the Pied Piper and lead the masses. Especially, he needed them as Iraq was waging war.
Other people like Bazargan (the first post-Shah President) were critical of Khomeini (and more especially those younger men around Khomeini who influenced this old (he was at least 78 when he lead the revolution) and sick (he had heart attacks at many times during the 1980s) Ayatollah) and were able to live in Iran freely. Why? Bazargan was no threat to the regime (he merely wanted out and resigned) and also hated the Shah as much as Khomeini did. That was tolerated. Rushdie was pro-Shah but Khomeini’s advisors saw a way of nailing him without making it look like what it was (another jaded attempt by the new Iranian government to punish another Pahlavi apologist).
There is a difference between the Jews and the Poles, Russians, etc. The latter were killed in the normal course of war, so to speak, whereas the Jews were specifically targetted for annihilation. The Nazis deliberately sought to exterminate every Jew in occupied Europe, and established a whole infrastructure of death — military forces, prison camps, gas chambers, creamtoria — to accomplish that goal.
Should denial of the Nakhba be a crime?
Should denial of the existence of Palestinians on their land for thousands of years be a crime?
Should denial of basic human rights for millions of Palestinians be a crime?
Should the daily, and nearly 60 years of, extrajudicial kidnappings, imprisonments, murders and assassinations by Israel be a crime?
Should Britain’s passing off to the Israelis of their own thirty years of occupation, brutality and imperial rule in Palestine be a crime?
Should the imprisonment of children by Israel be a crime?
Should the murder of children by Israel be a crime?
Should the murder of civilians by Israel be a crime?
Should every prime minister of Israel since Ben Gurion be held accountable for their murderous policies and actions in a war crimes tribunal, just as was done with Milosevic and Hussein by the world community, and with a number of former SS officers by Israel?
Should writers like Alan Dershowitz and Joan Peters be put on trial for publishing lies about the history of Palestine and its long-time native inhabitants?
Should such writers be stripped of their privileged positions in the media and higher education and be thrown into prison for libel and worse?
Should the fact that the world will never consider any of the above mentioned issues due to their blind prejudice and racism against the Arabs be a crime?
I don’t want to go too far off the subject (Holocaust denial), but I’d just like to add a little to what has been said about the other nationalities and communities killed in the course of WWII. It’s true that Hitler targetted the Jews for complete extermination, but it is not true that everyone else was ‘killed in the normal course of war’. Hitler saw the war in the East (the lands east of Germany) as a colonial war, in an attempt to gain ‘Lebensraum’ for the Germans. The Germans followed the laws of war against the western powers, but not against the Soviets and the ‘lesser’ peoples of the East. 3.5 percent of their British and American POWs died in captivity, whereas 57 percent of Soviet POWs died – 3.3 million altogether, from a combination of starvation, cold, disease, execution, and gassing. And the first to be gassed in Auschwitz were Soviet POWs. The Russians and others were not be exterminated as a whole, but they were to be a slave labour force for the Germans.
For further information see this article by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007178
Auschwitz was inhabited almost exclusively by Polish non-Jews for the first 21 months of the camp’s existence. The first Pole died in June, 1940 and the first Jew died there in October of 1942.
Does anybody know why the Germans targeted the jews? The Jews obtained Palestine by selling out Germany. Benjamin Freedman speech
Auschwitz: The Final Count
I have noticed that any sites which publish stories which refute the official holocaust story are mysteriously shut down. Strange.
Truth,
If you want to know why these sites are shut down you need look no further than this http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=15157
In 2004 Congress passed HR 4230, The Global Anti-Semitism Review Act which established an office within the US State Department, the Office to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism. Check it out and also check out INACH http://www.inach.net/ ie who their newly elected chairman is and you might begin to get a clue as to why this is happening. Personally, I am not understanding the arguement against questioning the Holocost. There is that old saying, “He doeth protest too much”. Is even scholarly questioning supposed to be against the law? This is nothing short of trying to put a lid on academic freedom which is indeed one of the hallmarks of fascism. If someone turns up facts refuting certain aspects of what has been accepted as fact for years then what? People can argue until they are blue in the face but the core fact remains, one people’s subjection to genocide true or not should NEVER be given as an excuse to supplant another from their land. That’s why the Zionists clinging to the Holocost just doesn’t make sense to me. But then again, what am I to know, the WHOLE Zionist arguement makes no sense to me. Where is the Gypsy state after WWII? Just a thought.
holocaust
n 1: an act of great destruction and loss of life
(WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University)
Which holocaust?
The Armenian one? According to most estimates, 80,000 to 300,000 Armenians were killed between 1894 and 1897. Over a million Armenians perished between 1914 to 1923.
The Cambodian one? Estimates of between 30,000 and 500,000 killed by U.S. bombing.
The Japanese one? U.S. bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki together killed about 214,000 people.
Let us not forget the other holocausts, these and so many more. There is no exclusive claim to the term, as with “semite”, which applies to Palestinians and Syrians.
Welcome to Austria: Birthplace of Adolph Hitler. Seems more than a little illogical and hypocritical for Austria to imprison Holocaust deniers when they started the Holocaust in the first place. So check out how many Nazi leaders came from Austria. Small wonder they are in denial. Finally Austria realised the embarrassment they were causing for themselves and released David Irving early. But this is symptomatic of how world opinion is shifting away from the Jews in general and Israel in particular. The extent to which US Jews control the US government is finally being exposed. The even bigger picture is that a decline in US world status (definitely on the cards) will be very bad news for Israel. Similarly, Taiwan, South Korea and even Guam might want to mend a few fences with China. Notice how Japan is moving from a self-defence force to a standing army. Imagine for a moment the price of oil per barrel if the state of Israel had never been founded. The old order changeth. Nice neutral, Buddhist country anyone?
If people could deny the existence of God without even a slap on the wrist why should denial of the Holocaust be made illegal. The Zionist Jews are not above God, but perhaps they think that they are (probably they think they own God, but more likely they own satan and the devil).
I have mixed feelings on Holocaust denial…
On one hand, I feel that we should be able to question the Holocaust and search for the facts. I don’t want to just take someone’s word for it.
THEN…ON THE OTHER HAND! I say bring it on! Bring on the laws that make denying the Holocaust illegal. Hear me out on this one…
If it is made illegal, who will go to jail? Zionists, and all those who glorify the suffering of the jewish people and DENY THE HOLOCAUST THAT IS GOING ON IN PALESTINE, AND DENY AND MARGINALIZE THE “OTHERS” THAT DIED AS WELL IN THE HOLOCAUST IN EUROPE.
We can not let the truth become a byword for the sake of some sort of solidarity. If they are going to make it illegal, then it should be illegal across the board! Or not at all.
The holocaust memorial is a sham! There is no proof that all the naked people that they show in a mass grave are judaics. They could be some of the “others.” I keep saying the “others”, because they have not been given proper honor in the holocaust memorials. This is also holocaust denial by those who fund Holocaust Museums, only showing jewish photo’s and jewish things. What about everyone else? So I guess my own charge is against my own people who themselves deny the holocaust. What should be done? The proof is in the museums. Check it out, and complain to the “powers that be”, and tell the authorities in the countries where it is illegal, that the holocaust memorials and museums are guilty of holocaust denial by denying the “others” and not honoring them properly.
I am going to post two links in the following posts.
Here is the first:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine.html
Here is the second:
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mazin8.html
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