White extremists use terror videos to threaten Muslims: FAR-RIGHT extremists have adopted the tactics of Islamic jihadists by posting videos on the internet in which they threaten to behead British Muslims. The films show balaclava-clad white British men brandishing guns, knives and clubs, calling on all Muslims to leave the United Kingdom or be killed. One appears to be a soldier who has served in the Gulf. In one film a man tells Muslims to "go home" or risk being burnt alive. He threatens: "I'll cut your head off," and claims to have "comrades" across Britain who have "had enough"... Read full article by The Sunday Times here.
In another video a man with a London accent wonders what should be done to "fight the so-called religion of peace known as Islam." Noting that the alleged plot to blow up US-bound planes in midair has resulted in "no retaliation" against Muslims, he said: "Well, wake up. I am calling on England, Ulster, Scotland and Wales to stand and defend the island that we love." Eleven British Muslims have been charged of conspiracy to murder and planning acts of terrorism over the foiled plot while four people were accused of lesser offences. Five people are still being questioned but have not been charged... Read more at Islam-Online.
Now is that called terrorism? No? Mind it; they are neither Muslims nor Arab!
{ 30 comments }
The thing is, it is terrorism. And the British authorities will treat it that way. I haven’t seen any Jihadist convicted for their beheadings.
Oh, that makes me feel better; British authorities terrorists will treat the terrorists.
The terrorist you call jihadist has nothing to do with Islam except for what they call themselves as. Just like these and other terrorist taking religion as a cover, faiths and sick believes that has nothing to do with religions..
Moreover, terrorists caught in any Arabian country are convicted, jailed or hanged just like any other criminals all around the world. However, who will convict Bush, Blair, Sharon, Olmert, Peretz, etc… for their crimes and beheading of nations like in Palestine, Iraq or Lebanon?
Your backyard is not cleaner than ours.
Wake up… Terrorism has no religion. Jet plans and tanks are called liberation and self defense machines, but resistance and freedom fighter’s raffle is called terrorist machine!!!
The British people who made these threats did not claim any religious affiliation, at all. Yes, terrorists in what you call “Arabian” lands are convicted, but more frequently because they targeted the respective government, not because they went after a specific religion, ethnic group, etc.
And notice, I said Jihadist, I didn’t even mention the words Muslim or Islam. I work in the software industry, and have been fortunate enough to meet people from all over the world. I have Muslim friends. And Jewish friends. And….people who kidnap people and cut their heads off are crimminal, they are terrorist, and they are cowards.
There has always been a current in western society that is anti- Muslim. With recent events they have been able to use the opportunity to vent such feelings in the open.
I do not think that videos such as these change much for Muslims that live in the west. Many Muslims already know that there are some who would just love to slit the throat of a Muslim if given half a justification or chance.
David,
I hate everything violent.
I was upset when (I don’t know how to spell his name) Al-Zarkawhi was killed because a person was killed.
YOU CAN’T TEACH A MAN (OR WOMAN) ANYTHING BY KILLING THEM.
Death is final! It only makes more martyrs.
Knowledge is the key! An understanding about their suffering will help more than bombs.
Gaza is the crux of the problem and Israel won’t let go!
Israel and the US are the main problem, but they don’t see it!
Palestinians have suffered more now than the Israelis have suffered during WWII.
But the US administration have supported the Israelis.
There has to be a time when the truth comes out here in North America to tell us how much that the Israelis have broken UN Conventions to keep the Palestinians in control in the name of the US.
To David,
Above you state “The British people who made these threats did not claim any religious affiliation”. Agreed, they did not in the typical sense. Rather their actions stem from zenophobia which results in hatred and quite often acts such as this and is also in this case a result of being emboldened by the imperialistic hubris of the UK witnessed in their joining the US (my country)in a wholly terroristic illegal war of aggression in Iraq based on utter manufactured lies. If you took time to read the above accounts you would have found that one of the participants in the video alludes to the fact that he served in your country’s armed forces in this illegal war. The utter racist threats of these videos may not be religious as one typically thinks but they ARE a form of Jihadist nationalist fervor every bit as religious in outcome. When one nation claims de facto superiority over other nations, in this case, over Muslim nations and peoples and threatens them with annialation that IS religious in nature. Nationalism and imperialism are both quite simply secular religiosity. This war in Iraq is all part of the US and UK neocon plan to “reshape the Middle East” per their own specifications and needs for control and national gain. The war in Iraq is your and my country’s terroristic attempt to overpower the sovereign nationality of another region in this world, pure and simple.
As for your statement about “Jihadists” not being convicted in Arab countries, I would like to refer you to the International Counter-Terrorism Conference held in Riyadh last year which is only the latest in such conferences held which have resulted in action taking place in Arab countries. This meeting was attended by 60 nations. Here is an important statement which came out of this conference: “Stress the fact that terrorism has no specific religion, ethnic origin, nationality, or geographic location. In this respect, it is of paramount importance to stress that any attempt to associate terrorism with any given faith will in actual fact only help the terrorists. It should be rejected wholeheartedly. Hence the need to take measures so as not to tolerate any accusations leveled against any religion and to lay the groundwork for understanding and cooperation founded on commonly shared values between countries with varying faiths.”
You can find more about the conference and it’s members actions here http://www.ctic.org.sa/default.asp
I would also like to notify you that many of us here in the US are working diligently to put this terroristic war on trial http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1228779,00.html and here http://thankyoult.live.radicaldesigns.org/content/view/25/. I would also like to refer you to this article http://blog.zmag.org/node/2502 “The Official Definitions of Terrorism” by Noam Chomsky. The above mentioned hate-mongerers are only lesser players in the terroristic actual wars taking place in the Mideast perpetrated by so-called legitiamate forces killing tens of thousands more innocent victims than your afore-mentioned “Jihadists” EVER have.
News that makes NO news, complete with Sunday Times link?
Makes you sound like the whiners at “Project Censored”.
And they’re threatening to kill people – definitely, that’s bad, but it’s not in the same league as actually killing people.
To Robin,
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I used the term Jihadist, not Muslim or Islam. The Brit authorities will prosecute these people. I said they didn’t claim to be acting on bahalf of a religion because they didn’t mention one.
I stand by what I said about prosecuting Jihadist because many of the countries only prosecute terrorist when they go after the respective government of any number of countries in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia and Jordan come immmediately to mind. They don’t prosecute terrorist when they are killing people in other countries.
Also, just because the idiot hinted at having servered in the Gulf, doesn’t make it so. In fact, I think it’s unlikely, he probably a “want-to-be” soldier.
Thank you for the long list to read, I already read a lot. I think these people are reacting to the terrorist bombings in England, the recent arrests, and the marches in England lately threatening Jihad, murder, beheadings, etc. I don’t think I stated anything that suggests I agree with them. I’m just confident the Brit authorities will treat their threat as a crime.
Did you not notice the effort the Brits put into protecting mosqueses?
Don’t let Noam Chomsky do your thinking for you.
And….people who kidnap people and cut their heads off are crimminal, they are terrorist, and they are cowards. I stand by this statement. I don’t care what religion or nationality.
And finaly, these vidios were not religious in nature. They were crimminal in nature.
if you want another view of terrorism go to a web site that I really enjoy. I got his link from here.
http://www.bendib.com
He is from the US and he keeps hitting the nail on the head. He is good and very honest. Worth the read.
David,
Can you provide any references to these claims, David?
Terrorists go after civilians as well as national authorities and foreigners in both the countries you mentioned, and in both, caught terrorist were trialed, regardless if their targets were local or in other countries.
So he hinted but you still do not want to believe that he did? Well, you thinking it is unlikely do not make Occupation armies in Gulf less terrorists.
Finally, regardless if this video is religious or not does not change the fact that terrorist has no religion. Criminals are everywhere, racist and warmongers are everywhere, and remember, occupation is American, British and Israeli. I don’t see Arab or Muslims occupying West. You want end of “terrorism,” take off the reason they claim they are fighting because. OCCUPATION! Although fighting occupation is not terrorism, it is called resistance and freedom fighting and this is a right that is protected by all heavenly and earth rules.
Peace Haitham,
I haven’t linked terrorism and religion. I’ve gone out of my way not to. I call them jihadist because they frequently call themselves jihadists. I’m fine with just terrorist.
I brought up Jordan and Saudi Arabia because of recent events that I thought you would be familiar with. As for specifics, what about the two journalist recently captured in Palestine? Are the authorities investigating? They were forced to convert to Islam under the gun. Has a fatwa been issued disallowing the conversion, or are they apostate? I will send you references, can you send me references? I specifically stated that terrorists in some countries in the Middle East attacked the government. This would include the government, industry, tourists. These acts are designed for regime change. This is different than attacking, for example, a Coptic church.
I don’t know if this man served in the gulf, I said I doubted it. I have served in our military, long ago, and have met a number of young men who claim military service, who never did serve. I think the people who have made these threats are: unemployed, drunks, and blaming Muslims for their own faults. I also think they are stupid, will be caught, and the Brits will prosecute. I also called them terrorists, in response to your initial post. I said it is not based on religion because what rational one can discern from their statements, seems to be racially bigoted and nationalistic.
I’m fine with a Palestine and Israel. I hope we get out of Iraq quickly, I would prefer that a government be in place. It would be better for the people, I think. That said, I hope we can avoid political and military action or participation in the Middle East in the future.
Iraq war statistics for the first year, 2/03-2/04
“As many as 10,000 non-combatant civilian deaths during 2003 have been reliably reported so far as a result of the US/UK-led invasion and occupation of Iraq . These reports provide figures which range between a minimum of 8,235 and a maximum of 10,079 as of Saturday 7th February 2004.” http://www.iraqbodycount.org/editorial_feb0704.php
Statistics on victims of “Jihadist terrorism” for the same year, 2003
“# Jihadist terrorism is generally viewed as attacks by Islamist radicals against Western, non-Muslim targets. In truth, not only are Muslims frequently targeted by Jihadists, they are disproportionately the victims of Islamist terrorism.
# The U.S. Department of State, in its most recent annual report, Patterns of Global Terrorism, reports that there were 625 fatalities worldwide as a result of terrorist attacks in 2003.
# While Patterns of Global Terrorism does not report the religion of the victims, an analysis by FDD of the 2003 report reveals that Muslims are far more likely to be victims of terrorism than their share of the global population would suggest. Muslims constitute about 22% of the world population, but closer to half the victims of terrorism are Muslim.
# In addition to those acts of terrorism cited in State Department reports, hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians have been targeted for death by Jihadist forces in internal conflicts, most notably in Algeria.” http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=263187
According to the US State departments own report of the same year, 2003, “Across the region, governments demonstrated the political will to tackle the threat of terrorism on their soil and lent their weight to bilateral and multilateral efforts to fight terror. Terrorist assets were targeted, as most Middle East governments froze al-Qaida financial assets pursuant to UN Security Council Resolutions 1373, 1267, 1333, 1390, and 1455. Many countries provided essential support to Coalition military activities in the liberation of Iraq and have continued vital support to ongoing operations in Afghanistan. Several countries signed or became parties to the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism. Every country hosting an American diplomatic and/or military presence responded to U.S. requests to provide enhanced security, particularly during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The United States provided training throughout the region to augment the capacity of our allies in the fight against terrorism.” For more here on specifics http://usinfo.state.gov/is/Archive/2004/Apr/29-280394.html
Now mind you, I am giving this information from my own US State Department who is the perpetrator of the attrocities in Iraq who themselves state clearly that the states in the region are cooperating in the “war on terror” with them. In addition, these countries have to deal with this threat within their own countries as you mentioned yourself.
And excuse me David, you say “I stand by what I said about prosecuting Jihadist because many of the countries only prosecute terrorist when they go after the respective government of any number of countries in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia and Jordan come immmediately to mind. They don’t prosecute terrorist when they are killing people in other countries.” It is the job of the country in which the crime is committed to prosecute the criminal. Why would Jordan or Saudi Arabia prosecute Jihadist terrorists in the UK say? It would be the UK who would do that and if they fled to their own countries this would become a matter of extradition.
NO ONE here is saying that “Jihadist terrorists” do not need to be dealt with. What I am saying is that the so-called legitimate militaries of the “Coalition Forces” in Iraq have reeked more TERRORISM in this region by far than “Jihadist terrorsts” have worldwide. Try living through “shock and awe” and see if you don’t think it was terrorism. Try living through the civil war which has been unleashed because of our imperialistic occupation and see if you don’t think it is terrorism you are experiencing. Try living through the occupation of Palestine and see if you don’t think it is terrorism controlling your everyday existance.
And BTW, Noam Chomsky does not do my thinking for me, I happen to agree with him and that is why I gave the link. :)
You know what is funny, I haven’t even disagreed with you about anything. You just wish people agreed winth you about everything. What’s the point of a blog??? We have an chance here, without governtment, formal journalism, anything you want. If you wish, I will not comment here, or read your blog. Please ask directly, don’t just cut me out. Thanks.
One last comment, you never responded to my first post. Who has been convicted about beheadings, I’ll give you, the last twenty years? Educate me, I’m willing.
David,
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that you should agree with everything, but I’m trying to clarify things, on both sides.
As for convicted terrorist, you mentioned Jordan and Saudi then jumped to Palestine. That’s fine, although using Palestine as a reference is not a good example for we all know that the Palestinian authorities are weaker than protecting themselves due to many reasons but first is the occupation itself. However, the last incident of Fox news journalists, everyone inside Palatine as well outside know that the terrorist group that conducted the kidnapping are unknown and no one ever heard of them. This also should be linked to alerts from President Abbas and many US as well Israeli official few months ago, that Al Qaeda is establishing a base for operation inside the occupied territories. This is my own analysis, which I believe is close to what has happen. “Are they investigating?” I don’t see why one should think that they are not! But again, this type of operations needs sophisticated tools, measures and experience, which I think you agree with me that Palestinian authorities lack due to restrains from occupation.
As for trials and convicting terrorist and their supporters, here are two recent examples from Jordan:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060831/wl_mideast_afp/jordaniraqattacksqaedatrial_060831104620
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E39064ED-2B4F-45EC-80DA-3ED4D0BC5386.htm
Further, I don’t see why you are trying to find excuses for these terrorist? “Unemployed, drunk, etc…” you are trying to judge that they should not be blamed for what they said because they “might” have a good reason for saying what they said?! This is black and white, don’t you think so? Why can’t they be simply terrorists in full sense? Why are you trying to find an excuse for them? Why do we have to agree that they are ‘crazy’ (the favorite judgment that Israel like to give for any of its citizen when he conduct a massacre!!) and not like all other crazy “terrorists”, but these are crazy guys? I find it hard to accept your justification for these guys and trying to draw them as special case that should not be placed at the same level of those terrorist beheading civilians in Iraq?!
One last thing, I’m not cutting you off, but I’m trying to clear out what you are saying so that we don’t misunderstand you. You like to comment/read here or not, that goes for you!
Oh, and for your question “Who has been convicted about beheading?”, well, if you can tell me where did you see beheading other than in Iraq? And if that is where you are referring to, maybe the question should be “does Iraq have a state of stability that allows the authorities to go after criminals and terrorists to convict them?” (I guess you know the answer and you know why they can’t).
David,
Back to the original topic and my own responses to your original statement. I think you need to realize that your statement was provocative. Let me explain. You are saying you are confident that the British authorities will nab these video makers and then make your Jihadist statement. So, let me break it down in simple terms. I am not familiar with British law concerning hate crimes but this indeed is what it was since no one (that I’m aware of) was physically harmed by these people. Do you not find it ironic that on one hand you say you are confident that they will be caught and prosecuted by your authorities for a hate crime yet your same government is committing the ultimate crime of war against innocent Muslims in Iraq? That’s like saying “I’m going to ground my kid for talking naughty , actually he was probably just drunk but in the mean time I’m going to burn down your entire neighborhood because I THINK you are up to no good” and in this case the “no good” was TOTALLY based on manufactured lies and deception?
Then your statement about the Jihadists further inflames because as the facts I gave above clearly show, the Western victims of Jihadists are FAR fewer than the innocent victims of yours and my own country’s aggression. Within the facts given above are the numbers for 2003. Innocent civilian deaths in Iraq, roughly 10,000. Innocent victims of Jihadist terrorism, 625, only slighty more than half are Western. So there you have it 10,000 vs. roughly 350. That’s TWENTY-EIGHT to ONE. The Iraq Body count’s figure for innocent civilian deaths as of today, approximately 45,000. Now granted, some of these are the victims of the civil insurgency but this would NOT be happening if it were not for the so called “Operation Iraqi Freedom” which was a PRE-EMPTIVE war illegal per international law. What needs to made clear here is that the WORLD, including the Arab world, are victims of Jihadist terrorism but it is the ARAB world alone who is the victim of Western imperialist aggression. Furthermore, you are still not backing down from your statement about Jihadists not being prosecuted when I clearly give you evidence contrary to your statement. And who has been convicted of beheadings? Try Zarqawi who was not convicted, he was killed, WITH Iraqi military aid. Furthermore, would Zarqawi have been in Iraq in the first place if it were not for “Operation Iraqi Freedom”? Remember that invitation to the terrorist tea party, “We’re going to fight them in Iraq so we don’t have to fight them over here”? A statement made by my own fascist president and helped along by your own Blair. Ill-thought out invasion based on lies and ILL-THOUGHT out follow-up resulting in the TOTAL mess there is now.
On a personal note, I do not only have many Moslem friends, I was married and now amicably divorced from a Moslem. I lived in the ME for five years and maintain close ties to friends and family there. So having a foot in both worlds gives me personally a different perspective. Racism and hatred exists on both sides but the power of utter destruction resides entirely with the West. The problem has existed for many years in relation to the Palestinian issue and the UK’s complicity and the US total support of Israel but the Iraq invasion has CERTAINLY made things worse. The fear-mongering of Bush and Blair is 100% responsible for the citizen’s of both country’s citizens zenophobic racist behaviors whereas it is the actions of Bush and Blair who are responsible for the Arab world’s reaction. Iraq had NOTHING to do with OBL’s actions and yet it was Iraq we invaded. It is a VERY complicated situation which goes back years to colonialism and the West’s continuing support of puppet regimes in the ME. But I will end on this note, the video which was made by these racists was abominable. It was targeted at all Muslims and that is just simply WRONG. The West, the US and the UK primarily, have waged a war on the Muslim world which has further emboldened hatred of Muslims in their ignorant populaces who have NO idea what they are talking about and threaten innocent people. This CANNOT be allowed to be condoned by the responsible citizens of these two countries who sincerely wish for peace in the Middle East and statements made about the Muslim world’s reaction to this problem that they too are facing must be clarified.
I did not make excuses for the people in the vidio. I think they are idiots. They will be prosecuted and punished. Robin, I am American. Not British. And the original post had nothing to do with Iraq. The first post by the author of this blog was a sarcastic:
“Now is that called terrorism? No? Mind it; they are neither Muslims nor Arab! ”
I clearly stated that is was terrorism, and stated that they would be found and prosecuted. If you don’t like the term Jihadist, we can use the term terrorism.
One more thing, Robin. The sectarian violence going on in Iraq and other places in the Middle East started well before there even was a United States. Further, zenophobic and racist behavior is not limited to Brittain or the U.S. Read any number of blogs in the Palestian section of The Truth Laid Bear. We have a word for Muslims in the U.S., Robin, they are called citizens. In much of the Muslim world, they have a word for us non-Muslims, it’s called dhimmi. Haitham, you mentioned in your first reply to me that: “Your backyard is not cleaner than ours.” Fair enough, we will take care of our backyard. You have plenty of work in your own.
Haitham,
Not links but these were in the news.
Daniel Pearl, beheaded, Pakistan. Not much effort
made at finding his killers.
Abu Abbas, this predates either of the Gulf wars. He killed a wheelchair bound, elderly, harmless man. He openly lived in a number of states in the Middle East, including Iraq under Saddam Hussien.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eYG3poe0o0 THERE IS THEIR LATEST VIDEO!!!!!
This David sounds like a CIA plant. I just have feelings!
His comments just weren’t right!
He didn’t answer any questions as someone who was concerned.
He was fishing for information!
Sorry if I sound paranoid, but I am.
1. “And the original post had nothing to do with Iraq” Yes it did.
“In a reference that may indicate he has a military background, he says the slaughter would remind him of being “back in the Gulf”
Now you want to say he may be a pretender. I say that is equally as bad because his perceptiom of the Iraqi war then would be his motivation and the video states, “We are going to rip the life out of you. I am going to tear your guts out. I’ll cut your head off.
Gosh he’s now a pretender wanting to be a soldier in Iraq. That is VERY comforting. :(
2. I am very much aware of the term “dhimi”. But you are barking up the wrong tree on this one David. Read the last paragraph of my post #16 again. I lived in the Mideast, was married to a Muslim, am AMICABLY divorced maintain CLOSE ties to my ex-inlaws AND have a daughter from that marriage whom we lovingly share. How is it that I was accepted in such a completely loving manner with NEVER a suggestion to convert to Islam from my Muslim family and STILL accepted by them COMPLETELY if I am in fact less of a person than them as you are suggesting they believe. I also have countless other Western friends married to Muslims with the same experience as mine. Sorry David, but as I said, you are barking up the wrong tree.
3. “We have a word for Muslims in the U.S., Robin, they are called citizens” Again, you are barking up the wrong tree. I will not go into any specifics on incidents but rest assured I have had to deal with MANY problems concerning my own daughter’s half-Arab nationality and have had numerous friends here with their own list of experiences. So when you see an article such as this one it REALLY rubs people the wrong way who have been the recipient either themselves or through their loved ones of these threats towards Muslims and Arabs. And yes they may be citizens but that does NOT protect them from CONSTANT suspicion and racist slurs.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/usahate/usa1102-03.htm#P221_29794
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=24704
PLEASE READ THIS: Article, August 12, 2006, Kansas City Star titled “Poll Shows Prejudice Against Muslims”
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/living/religion/15253634.htm
This one ought to wake up anyone’s eyes when it is written, ” Four in Ten Americans Admit Prejudice Against Muslims” in the US in another article referring to the poll it states, “The survey found 44% favored at least some restrictions on the civil liberties of Muslim Americans. Forty-eight percent said liberties should not be restricted in any way”
Want to find out more David, simply google “Prejudice against Muslims or Arabs” (either one) and see what you come up with.
Jonny5,
Thanks for the link. I hope that everyone that sees the recording “flag it as inappropriate racial offensive content.”
Kimmy, CIA plant? Why would the CIA care about Haitham’s blog. I work in software, I’m a DBA. My wife and I are on sabbatical, going to school, pursueing hobbies. Thus, I have the time to waste responding to you.
Robin, I said post. The topic of which was a couple vidios. Haitham asked if it was terrorism. I respond “yes”. Haitham suggested that nothing would be done in his first reply. I expressed faith that the Brits would find these people, and they would be tried.
Robin, I’m glad your divorce was amicable. I have friends from Pakistan, Lebanon, India, Egypt, and Iran. If you think prejudice only occurs in America and is only directed at Muslims. Fine. Read any number of blogs in the Palestinain section of The Truth Laid Bear, some of the views might surprise you. Oh, you and your friends minor problems of prejudice directed against you pale in comparison to say, having ones head cut off. You have your own prejudice to deal with. For example, because I said the Brits would proscecute, you assumed I was British.
Robin, I wish we weren’t in Iraq. I don’t think we should change regimes. The people of the Middle East can be responsible for their own governments, even if it’s a rather brutal dictatorship like Saddam. All that money could of been spent on education, health care, alternative energy, etc. I will not apologize for going after the Taliban, or Bin Laden.
Obama is probably the most exciting politician in America, right now, but I doubt he will run for President in the next election.
David,
Again, you are assuming I said something which I did not. I never denied there is antagonism towards Westerners or as you wish to emphasize beheadings. I am telling you that MY personal experience and MANY friends and THOUSANDS of ex-pats living in the Mideast were and are positive. Of course not every one of them is, but your continued reference to beheadings does NOT deny mine and others positive experiences. You also are not understanding the fact that the US continual meddling in the affairs of the Middle East, their ongoing support of Israel in a brutal occupation and our own wars we have perpetrated there are ALSO terrorism inflicted on them by us which FAR outwiegh the incidents you keep bringing up. Tell me David, what are the odds of having your head chopped of as a Westerner in the Middle East when you look at the number of ex-pats living there? What are the odds of not having electricity, being bombed, being corralled in the prison called the occupation on and on? Pretty damn good if you ask me if you live in Iraq, Lebanon or the Occupied territories. So when you keep saying that you are confident these video makers will be caught and prosecuted that pales in the face of the fact that Bush and Blair are actively perpetrating terrorism on a DAILY basis and no one is catching them. Big deal if the video makers are caught which I agree they probably will be and absolutely should be. But that’s small potatoes when you look at the daily experiences of living in terror perpetrated by US, Israel and the UK BTW, how do your Muslim friends treat you David? Have they threatened you in any way? Are they responsible citizens who treat others well? Have they participated in any beheadings recently or have friends that do?
Have any of them ever invited you to visit their homelands with them and would you consider going? I apologize for assuming you are British, after all, as an American that is very biased of me.
Many of you, many of us should read eastern and western sages, sufi, zen Masters .
All the old religions and their Masters are still good but people fight so much in the name of God and Nationalism mixed with Power and …
Things can only get better if evry single human beeibg gets better.
I should get better and it is never easy.
Imagine someone spits in the street in front of your child, or your wife, or yourself, how one is supposed to react?
Someone kidnaps or kills or wounds one of your beloved what should one do?
Are we not all terrorists in disguise? or is not the murderer hidden deep inside us?
Let us pray, medidate, dance for a better world and ask the death powers who make so much profit with the arms industry to stop this ugly game.
Instead all this money could be used and should be used for creative purposes.
Look inside you and your flower will flourish.
David,
You are starting to scare me.
Bush is defying every law ever written.And you are telling me that everything is OK. I think you are a plant to diversify any discussion here to support Bush and his lies.
Personal thought.
Kimmy, you are just silly. When did I even mention Bush?
Robin,
No, it doesn’t pale in comparison to anything. It was the original topic.
That your family treats you well is irrelevent, it’s to be expected. It has nothing to do with the rule of law. If they had treated you badly, would that of colored your views negatively of all the people in the Middle East.
Of course my friends from the Middle East are nice. Also, some are Muslim, some Christian, and some very secular.
We have been invited to Pakestan, Lebanon, and India. We thought we were going to India last year, but it fell through due to work.
I’ve stated at least twice that I wish we were not in Iraq. I didn’t expect it to work.
Much of the violence in the Middle East has nothing to do with the west or the Israeli/Palestine conflict. Sunni/Shi’ite conflict was present prior to the gulf wars, the existence of the United States, all the way back to the founding of Islam.
Further, most of the violence in the Middle East is perpetuated against its own citizens. These links concern Iran.
http://www.persianstudents.org/archives/002250.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqnSe3EqpA
http://www.fidh.org/asie/rapport/2003/ir0108a.pdf#search=%22Iranian%20religious%20minorities%22
These links concern Pakistan.
http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/Pdf/MRGPakistanReport.pdf#search=%22Pakistan%20religious%20minorities%22
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060821/wl_sthasia_afp/pakistanwomenjustice
David,
“No, it doesn’t pale in comparison to anything. It was the original topic.” I am responding to YOUR response to the original topic which was included this statement “I haven’t seen any Jihadist convicted for their beheadings.” Which I then refuted with proof positive that “Jihadists” have been more than convicted. One thing I left out, Zarqawi was nabbed with help from Jordan and further giving proof of Middle Eastern governmental aid in fighting terrorism. What you seem to forget is the proof I also gave above that far more Moslems have been the victims of “radical Islamic terrorism” than Westerners which I also gave proof of above. When discussing things, such as here, when one person says something another is free to respond. You respond to me, and I respond to you or others or the topic or whatever. You are obfiscating when you make this statement “it was the original topic” BECAUSE I am responding to YOU which is what discussion is all about.
“That your family treats you well is irrelevent, it’s to be expected.” Another contradiction in light of this statement “Further, zenophobic and racist behavior is not limited to Brittain or the U.S. Read any number of blogs in the Palestian section of The Truth Laid Bear. We have a word for Muslims in the U.S., Robin, they are called citizens. In much of the Muslim world, they have a word for us non-Muslims, it’s called dhimmi.” Let me see, that my family there treated me well is to be expected but yet you bring up the term “dhimmi”. Honestly David, the first time I EVER heard this word was a few months ago when visiting anti-Islamic blogs and information sites. Don’t you think that if I had experienced it in the way you suggest ALL non-Muslims are treated by all Muslims I would have known about such a thing in the last 31 years? As I noted, there are THOUSANDS of ex-pats living in the Middle East, CHOOSING to live and stay there, and enjoying their stay. Alot of it has to do with attitude David and also how you yourself both treat other people and expect to be treated. If you have an attitude you are going to be mis-treated why bother going? If you are mistreated, why bother staying, yet THOUSANDS do because they are coping in a foreign culture and mostly enjoying it.
http://www.aramcoexpats.com/Lifestyles/EventsAndReunions/SaudiArabiaAndMiddleEast/CategoryID/135/ContentList.aspx – 39k – and
I give you that one because it is unique. No one site can give you all the info and don’t think I don’t know about negative things too. Heck, the negative stories make the news all the time, but the “un-newsworthy and mundane” experiences rarely if ever do. IF I had been treated badly I would have the chance to be entertained by our media. You can never paint ANYTHING with a wide brush. What I am telling you is my story and alluding to thousands of others, NOT denying that there have been negative events.
I’m sorry your trip to India was cancelled but India is NOT a predominately Muslim country. And yes I am aware of Pakistan. What you referred to is an issue of human rights and I fully agree Pakistan as well as KSA are guilty of violations.
“Much of the violence in the Middle East has nothing to do with the west or the Israeli/Palestine conflict.” WRONG!! The current neocon agenda is very much tied into Zionist agenda, the two go hand in hand. But I’m sure you know that.
“Sunni/Shi’ite conflict was present prior to the gulf wars, the existence of the United States, all the way back to the founding of Islam.” Religios warfare, sectarian warfare, has existed in the Christian world for QUITE some time. The crusades, Protestant/Catholic strife as witnessed int he wars of Europe ALL were “territorial wars” fought under the guise of religion, many occurred BEFORE the advent of Islam. The current Sunni/Shia clash in Iraq is ALSO territorial and is caused by the US OCCUPATION which tore asunder their country. And as for civil war, go back less than 150 years in our own history, our own civil war, in which more lives were lost than all the other wars combined. See David, NO ONES history is squeeky clean. You can keep on bringing up all the negative stuff you want to but this is the bottom line, it is up to each individual to reach out to others in order to gain peace in this world and throwing accusations when your own back yard is full of trash is NEVER a good idea.
The primary difference is that the idiots in the vidio are threatening British Muslims, not threatening the British state. And the British government will act to protect the British Muslims. Jordon helped with Zarqawi because Jordan fears terrorism in Jordan. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq (under Sadam), and other countries have all gone after terrorists that attack their regime. Including for example, industry, tourism, the government. These same governments have hosted terrorist that have bombed and killed in Western nations.
Zarqawi was a crimminal and a thug before he started his terrorist gig. Go find your own Jordanian sources.
India has the third largest Muslim population in the world, after Indonesia and Pakistan. The sectarian violence there also has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine, or the west.
The first time I heard the word Dhimmi was from a Palestinan blogger who seems to have dedicated himself to convincing people that a world wide state based on Islam would be the best way to go. I argued for separation of church and state.
You keep confusing your personal relationships with law. I sent you several links that show at least two countries that have the concept of Dhimmi codified in their law. We can’t police every person in the country from being bigoted, but we can have laws in place that provide protection and a chance of resolving any wrongs.
Your link seemed to be some of the Gulf states. Like where our probably annoyed and patient with us host Haitham lives. Are you aware, Robin, that Bahrain is host to the U.S. Navy 5th fleet. Is that interfering, should they be pulled out? I would love to hear Haithams opinion, since he lives there. I’m fine with pulling out, Bahrain just needs to tell us to leave.
I’ve had an Uncle and a friend work in Saudi Arabia. My Uncle managed an construction project, my friend is a civilian commercial pilot. Were they treated nicely, Robin? Why yes, they were. What about fairly? Could they practice their religion? No. Could their wives travel about freely? No. Could they live anywhere they wanted? No.
This has got to be at least the third time I have very clearly stated that we should not be in Iraq.
I’m not a Bush supporter or even a Republican.
None of this has to do with any of the wars in Europe. We didn’t blame our civil war on anybody. As for the rest of your rant, The Sunni/Shi’ite clash may be territorial, but it is clearly along sectarian lines. I know that no ones history is squeeky clean.
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