http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12365 or http://www.ilanpappe.org/Interviews/The History of Israel Reconsidered.html

He was on http://www.flashpoints.net/ tonight, May 18 2007(starting 1/2 hour into the broadcast) download http://aud1.kpfa.org/data/20070517-Thu1700.mp3 . He makes another point — he says it should not be called nakba: nakba is a catastrophe, something that happens, like an earthquake — but 1948 did not just happen accidentally.

“Robin, Do you really think there is something constant called JUST ?

Answer: You’re damn right I do and it does NOT include harming others.

The site you link is founded by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonie_Darwish … interesting reading about her. She hardly seems objective.

As for justice, if you don’t have love for justice then love for G-d has no meaning.

Where to begin.

bluepilgrim, I wish we where smart as you think. And I strongly believe that more then Israel is smart the Arabs just keep repeating their mistake over and over.
And for books. on every topic that you will choose I can bring two different versions ( if not more ). But thats ok, like most people ( Jews / Arabs / Whatever ) continue to live in your black / white world.

Robin, Do you really think there is something constant called JUST ?
Do you think I care if some of the Jews think its wrong or right ? Its the same as you don’t care about those: http://www.arabsforisrael.com

Many nations have disappeared from the surface of the world in the past. and many more will in the future. Thats more related to survival then just from my point of view.
My point is very simple, you want to barricade blindly behind what you think is “just” ? Ok, thats fine by me, but don’t expect to something different from my side.

The problem with this sentence is that the way the Zionists (NOT Jews, because NOT all Jews are Zionists and this can be EASILY found when going back in the history books to see that CERTAINLY not all Jews agreed with establishing a state which depended on pushing another people off their land) “pushed themselves to a better future” by establishing a state they call their own, with aliya guaranteeing citizenship, is that this was AT THE EXPENSE of the Palestinians who lived there on this land for MILENIA. Until Zionists admit and reverse the actions of their “dream come true” and allow for the right of return as stated in UN resolution 194, there can be NO JUST peace. Please read Bluepilgrim’s analysis again, the peoples of this land, Jews, Christians and Muslims MUST be allowed to live together peacefully and it is Israel who is preventing this with their own Zionist policies. NO ONE is denying that great injustices were done to Jewish people, but the way to rectify this is NOT to commit an injustice against another people so that a POLITICAL state can be created denying the rights to those displaced.

I’ve spent much time trying to wake people up in the US to the evils of the government, and it’s slow and difficult; there are people in Israel, and other nations trying to the same in their countries. The people are often deceived by their governments, and controlled by them through disinformation. In Palestine, people are repressed, some of it from their own leaders, but to the greatest extent by Israel, with the support of the US.

The most difficult thing to do is for the people to wake up and understand how evil their governments actions are — people want to believe their countries and leaders are honest and good, but that often is not the case: there are always gangsters trying to control governments, and too often they succeed. We in the peace movement in the US are often called traitors for opposing the government and exposing it’s lies, but it is the gangsters in government who are hurting the country and the people. I think that’s true in Israel too. Now the US government is trying to blame the Iraqis for the problems there, and of course some of the Iraqis do terrible things, but it is the US which is mostly to blame. If you look further at Israel and the problems in Palestine you will find a similar situation.

All of us, the people of the world who want peace, need to learn the truth and work together to oppose the gangsters in all our nations.

I think that education is the key. I watched carefully the last events in Gaza strips and frankly its just hard to understand the Palestinians that killing each other.
Some of the peaceful Palestinians in Gaza suggest that they where better under “Israeli control”. My feeling that you don’t replace bad thing with another bad thing and at this point the Palestinians should take responsibility on their future.

As I see it I cant really talk to them in this state but I can:
1. try to minimize the mistrust between Israeli Arabs & Israeli Jews.
2. Understand & explain responsibility of the people for the greater good.
3. teach that right & wrong is extremely subjective and we should always look through our “so called enemies” eyes.

I think the other side should:
1. Educate people to understand peace is always better then war.
2. That the only one that can push the Palestinians to a better future is the Palestinians them self. The same way we did ( the Jews ).

I hope that the future will bring us a new political age without borders at all. I just don’t understand why someone from Africa is not allowed to live in the USA ( for example ). The freedom to live where you feel good as long as you don’t harm others, seems to me as a basic right.

Micheal, I’m sure that some Palestininns would gladly murder you and your family — just as Al Qaeda would gladly murder many people. Yet, there are reasons for that, and it is hardly universal of all Palestinians. Similarly, there are many Jews, Israelis included, who want justice for the Palestinians. Justice, of course, is a basic Jewish value. But fear and anger get in the way on all sides.

Just as you want a home, so do the Palestinians. In a peaceful society people of various religions and ethnicities live next to each other – and that was true in Palestine in the past. It is not really the ‘nation’ which matters, but the people. “the State of Israel” is not as important as the Holy Lands: people living together in peace, security, productivity, freedom, and happiness, as both interpretions of the G-D of Abraham would have it.

There are no perfect and complete solutions, but unless everyone is treated with justice then the warring will never end. The plain truth is that Israel cannot be both a theocracy or enthocracy AND a democracy. The truth is also that great injustice has been done — to the Jews before 1948, and to the Palestinians after. Only by working together can these be put into the past; holding memories is one thing but holding grudges is another. Memories should inform the efforts for the future. Perhaps some sort of truth and reconcilliation process as in South Africa would help, but that means that those on both sides must make the effort to see the other side’s point of view and abandon fear, greed, violence, and those who propagate them.

It is not just a matter of time will tell, as in waiting, but of choice. If the effort is not made, and sustained, then only more death and misery will follow. We cannot let the abstractions of politics intefere with human values and rights. If human values and justice are the foremost things in mind, then one state, two state, or a no state Holy Land protectorate, is immaterial — mere trappings. If human values are ignored then no political arrangement has any meaning. Both the Jews of Israel and the Muslims and Christians of Palestinian are brothers from ancient times and shared origins — much closer and sharing much more than with any other peoples. Working together you can all share a greatness and a love yet unseen in the world — if that is what is what the people choose.

I will not argue on justice as its subjective. This is just irrelevant for a post. I assume you all aware that we ( at least most of Israeli Jews ) think that 1948 war was a live or death war and there was no option for peace.

I’m well aware that any human being on earth has the full right to live in freedom of mind and body. and thats its irrelevant if his grandfather was the cause for his current suffer or wasn’t.

As I see it there are two problems from my side.

1. I don’t trust the Palestinians. I have the bad feeling that some of them will murder me and my family on first chance.

2. I’m not going to leave the house for any one the will claim that this land was his 60 years ago. I was born in Israel and I hope to die there an old man.

I’m not sure there is a right solution for both sides but I hope there is.

Time will tell

Suppose that the Palestinians had been gathered up in 1948 and shipped to the middle of the Australian outback, and left there alone — with no occupiers or prison camps, even? That would still have been a disaster and a theft of their lands. The word “occupation” tells only a part of the story, and is deceptive in that way. Imprisonment or ethnic cleansing better conveys what happened.

This is similar to calling the Iraqi resistance “insurgents” which implies that the puppet government of Iraq is legitimate, rising in revolt against legitimately established government. But the resistance is not revolting because the occupation by the US and its puppets is not legitimate — no more than the settlers in Palestine are there legitimately. We should avoid using words which assume any legitimacy to these aggressive actions and oppression.

Good question.

First, we agree that refugees are people displaced from their homes and lands and not allowed to return to them. Now, is sound that you are not aware that some Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their land during and after 1948 war lives in West Bank and Gaza camps. Other live outside Palestine.

To give you an example, here are some figures from the UNRWA (I don’t know how far that is up to date):

CAMP – - – NUMBER OF REGISTERED REFUGEES
Jabalia – - – 106,621
Rafah – - – 96,743
Beach 79,853
Nuseirat – - – 58,139
Khan Younis – - – 60,673
Bureij – - – 29,414
Maghazi – - – 22,840
Deir el-Balah – - – 19,847

West bank:

CAMP – - – NUMBER OF REGISTERED REFUGEES
Aqabat Jabr – - – 5,510
Ein el-Sultan – - – 1,723
Shu’fat – - – 10,069
Am’ari – - – 8,805
Kalandia – - – 10,024
Deir Ammar – - – 2,275
Jalazone – - – 10,390
Fawwar – - – 7,630
Arroub – - – 9,859
Dheisheh – - – 12,045
Aida – - – 4,534
Beit Jibrin – - – 2,025
Far’a – - – 7,244
Camp No.1 – - - 6,508
Askar – - – 14,629
Balata – - – 21,903
Tulkarm – - – 17,455
Nur Shams – - - 8,659
Jenin – - – 15,496

Now, what is left to say? I guess everyone knows that Gaza and West bank are under occupation, hence, these refugees are under occupation.

best wishes